Could I ask for help improving my bard 7 / Warlock 1? Gained level 9 last session.

[Odessa333]

Hi all!

So yea, topic. My half-elf bard of lore 7 / Warlock hexblade 1 hit level 9 last night, and I'm looking for some optimization help. So far, she's been focused entirely on melee, rushing in with hex, greenflame blade and Booming blade. Her spells have been around support, making her more physical abilities shine (feather fall, expeditious retreat, etc). As the campaign has been more stealth/social focused, the various options she's had have worked well. As we get closer to the end, we're finding ourselves with more battles. And well, she's been struggling in combat. I had thought this a good build, but with my poor rolls she rarely hits, and when she does her damage is pretty pitiful. Her defenses are solid, her support abilities are amazing, but she struggles to be relevant in combat. I'm looking for some ideas on how to change that.

Thank you for your time.

[AttilatheYeon]

Animate Objects is an amazing combat spell in combat. Cast it on the first round as your action. Bonus action attack with it. Unless your DM allows you to apply HBC to animated objects, then use HBC as your bonus action.

Second round, use Dissonant Whisper on the target. If they fail the save, they take psychic damage and have to use there reaction to move away at there full movement. This means any creature around them get an opportunity attack, which the animated objects are creatures. After you get those OAs, use your bonus action to move the animated objects and attack again.

Rinse and repeat. You'll find your DPR will spike very high doing this.

[Dork_Forge]

If you're looking to up your damage whilst still staying the Gish vein then dipping Fighter and picking up Dueling (if you're using a one handed weapon) will bump your at will damage nicely, can I ask how much you feel like you're lacking behind and what your stats are? Between the scaling of the SCAGtrips you're using and throwing Hex on top (and presumably Hexblade's Curse semi regularly too) I wouldn't have thought your damage would be far behind that of a dedicated melee combatant.

[Expired]

Hi all!

So yea, topic. My half-elf bard of lore 7 / Warlock hexblade 1 hit level 9 last night, and I'm looking for some optimization help. So far, she's been focused entirely on melee, rushing in with hex, greenflame blade and Booming blade. Her spells have been around support, making her more physical abilities shine (feather fall, expeditious retreat, etc). As the campaign has been more stealth/social focused, the various options she's had have worked well. As we get closer to the end, we're finding ourselves with more battles. And well, she's been struggling in combat. I had thought this a good build, but with my poor rolls she rarely hits, and when she does her damage is pretty pitiful. Her defenses are solid, her support abilities are amazing, but she struggles to be relevant in combat. I'm looking for some ideas on how to change that.

Thank you for your time.
Take the next level in Hexblade Warlock so you are Lore Bard 7/Hexblade Warlock 2. Make sure your Dex is at least 14 and wear medium armor and a shield. For your Eldritch Invocations, take Agonizing Blast and Devil's Sight/Repelling Blast. Your melee damage will be subpar so I highly suggest switching to Eldritch Blast spam for damage when not casting a spell.

[Quoz]

Well, two obvious options are to take another level of bard and get a feat (elven accuracy would be a very solid choice) or to take warlock 2 and grab some invocations to boost Eldritch Blast.

What magic secrets did you take for bard? And would your GM allow you to retrain them when you level if they aren't working for you? A bard, especially a bard multiclass, can get a lot of their potential from being able to make combos no one else can. Spike growth + repelling blast invocation could be a nightmare for a non-flying boss to deal with. You could also take find steed, pick up spell sniper for a feat, and do hit and run with a lance and booming blade (cast haste on yourself and your mount gets it for free, few enemies will be able to hit you if you take your movements carefully).

[Keravath]

I'd second the suggestion of 2 levels of hexblade + agonizing blast for damage. It does mean giving up the melee focus of your character but you can stand back, avoid being hit as often, maintain concentration on whatever important spell you are using and do damage using agonizing blast.

I have a level 15 character, 13 lore bard + 2 hexblade warlock that works really well. Agonizing blast (eldritch blast + agonizing blast invocation) gives very competitive damage of a rarely resisted type.

You don't mention what stats or feats you already have. Level 8 lore bard does give access to a feat however, my thought is that even with booming blade/green flame blade you are always going to lag in melee combat since you only ever have one attack which at your level would do 2d8+cha (assuming a d8 one-handed weapon for hex warrior). This is compared to agonizing blast which starts at 2(d10+cha) and if you are using hex would get an additional d6 on each attack (while the melee attack is only 1d6).

[Alucard89]

As someone who played Hexblade/Lore Bard and currently is playing again in another campaign - take 2nd level in Warlock asap! Repelling Blast + Agonizing Blast will give you great DPR to single target + control over enemies on battlefield. Pushing enemies away from your teammates to allow them to escape without OAs, pushing enemies away from you so you can get away from them, pushing enemies away to kite them, pushing enemies away into hazard spells like plant growth, web, sickening radiance etc. It's all good.

You should not be in melee. Your melee is only one attack and will deal SIGNIFICANT less DPR than Agonizing Blast + Hex + Curse. And it will keep scalling for you. You are level 9 so only 3 levels and you will get 3d10 + 15 + 3d6 + 12 using Agonizing Blast. From 120 feet away, with Repelling Blast pushing enemies 30 feet. You can also forgo Hex and cast Greater Invisibility or Fearie Fire to attack with advantage.

My plan is always go 1 Hexblade/6 Lore bard and then pick up 2nd level of Hexblade.

That's my recomendation. I also like to take Spiritual Weapon on level 6 + Counter spell to increase my single target DPR. Or take Conjure Animals to combo with dissonant whisper and OAs.

Curse + Hex + Agonizing Blast + Spiritual Weapon + Repelling Blat is devastating combo on any boss and stay relevant whole game. Spiritual Weapon even with just 2d8 damage can deal 2d8 + 5 + 6 + 1d6 damage as bonus action. If you plan to grab Crown of Stars however- I would skip Spiritual Weapon then.

Also, you can specialize in Telekinesis on Lore Bard and restrain anything, even Huge bosses with Legendary resistances. Because you can not only use Cutting Word on their strength save, but also later add inspiration to yourself via peerless skill, have gibness on yourself and your simulacrum can cast Hex on enemy giving him disadvantage on Strength saves. You can pretty much restrain anything in game with it.

[Odessa333]

Sure, her stats are insane by the power of rolling. She has 10 STR, 16 DEX, 17 CON, 14 INT, 14 WIS, and 20 CHA. When I saw those rolls I debated switching gears to monk or something lol. The game is HIGH high magic, so magic items seem to fall us on like rain. Like I have +2 armor, a +1 shield, and a +2 Rapier already.


On paper, she's one of my most overpowered characters with the best stats and magic items I can remember having, and yet she struggles to hurt anything. Last combat we had, our Paladin and Barbarian were mowing enemies down in a single hit with SMITE and rage. And the wizard player is an enchantment battlefield controllers, taking several enemies out of the fight every round. I spent the whole battle engaging with the same enemy, generic guard number 3. I was struggling to roll over a 5 for half the night, which did not help things. And when I did, my damage was just 'meh.'

I think part of it is power creep. In any other game, she'd likely be top tier. Yet with the others with high stats and magic items as crazy (or crazier) as this one, she's not keeping up in damage. When it comes to sneaking, picking locks, diplomacy, etc, she's amazing.



.... and to UPDATE this, I found part of the reason. I was toying with some ideas, looking over spells, etc, and realized my sheet is set up incorrectly. I've been fighting with a -2 Rapier, not a +2 Rapier. Between that fix and the added proficiency bonus this level, I'm going to guess my hit rate and damage will improve a bit. I can't believe I missed that. I'll be over here, hanging my head in shame.

[Alucard89]

Sure, her stats are insane by the power of rolling. She has 10 STR, 16 DEX, 17 CON, 14 INT, 14 WIS, and 20 CHA. When I saw those rolls I debated switching gears to monk or something lol. The game is HIGH high magic, so magic items seem to fall us on like rain. Like I have +2 armor, a +1 shield, and a +2 Rapier already.


On paper, she's one of my most overpowered characters with the best stats and magic items I can remember having, and yet she struggles to hurt anything. Last combat we had, our Paladin and Barbarian were mowing enemies down in a single hit with SMITE and rage. And the wizard player is an enchantment battlefield controllers, taking several enemies out of the fight every round. I spent the whole battle engaging with the same enemy, generic guard number 3. I was struggling to roll over a 5 for half the night, which did not help things. And when I did, my damage was just 'meh.'

I think part of it is power creep. In any other game, she'd likely be top tier. Yet with the others with high stats and magic items as crazy (or crazier) as this one, she's not keeping up in damage. When it comes to sneaking, picking locks, diplomacy, etc, she's amazing.



.... and to UPDATE this, I found part of the reason. I was toying with some ideas, looking over spells, etc, and realized my sheet is set up incorrectly. I've been fighting with a -2 Rapier, not a +2 Rapier. Between that fix and the added proficiency bonus this level, I'm going to guess my hit rate and damage will improve a bit. I can't believe I missed that. I'll be over here, hanging my head in shame.

You are doing poor damage cause you don't use Agonizing Blast. Lore Bards are not for damage on lower levels. Your power is Hypnotic Pattern, Counterspell, Dissonant Whisper, Suggestion, Heat Metal, Blindess/Deafness, Enthral, Ready Action: Hold Person -> your paladin smites, Phantasmal Force, Silence, Polymorph, Dominate etc.

If you want to do damage before higher levels, take second level in Hexbalde and pick up Agonizing Blast.

To give you perspective in two levels you will be doing average of 3d10 + 15 + 3d6 = 42 DPR using just Hex + Agonizing Blast. Add Curse to that on target and you will deal 56 DPR every turn vs one enemy.

Enemy has armor? Use upcasted Heat Metal for guarantee 4d8 every turn + Agonizing Blast, dealing 50 DPR.

Ask DM if you can change your magic secrets and take Spiritual Weapon or Fireball as your magic secret.

With upcasted Spiritual Weapon + Heat Metal + Agonizing Blast + Curse you can deal 68 damage per turn to enemy, also pushing them 30 feet away each time if you want. And critting on 19-20 range. Crit at least once and your damage goes up to 73-77 DPR.

If you want a damage now - take second level in Hexblade.

Because Lore Bards definitely can deal damage. They are support/CC mix by default but YOU CAN BRING THE PAIN:


Example of Lore Bard damage at higher levels:

Make sure to pick top choices in magic secrets at level 11, 14 and 17. Which means if you want to do damage pick up Tenser Transformation and Haste at level 11. At 14 pick Simulacrum.

Cast Tenser Transformation on yourself, let Simulacrum cast Haste on you. Pick up PAM as one of your later ASI, use Shield + Magic staff. Cast Curse on target.

Enjoy attacking 4 x (1d6 + 2d12 + 5 + 5) for DPR of 106 DPR per turn (not counting possible magic staff/spear you can have) with at least 21 AC with Half-Plate, shield and Haste on you. All with advantage and extra 50 THP. All attacking from CHA with Hex Warrior. Plus put Armor of Agathys on yourself. Enjoy enemies hitting you getting damage done to them.

You can also skip PAM and later you can also cast Crown of Stars on you and attack with bonus action for 4d12 each turn while you are hasted in Tenser. Dealing 3 x (1d6 + 2d12 + 5 + 5) + 4d12 + 5 per turn, dealing 110,5 DPR.

If you want to do damage as Bard - you can. But you can also pick stuff like Force Cage, Force Wall and Circle of Power and support your team in doing damage and CC enemies so hard they can't do anything.

Or take Telekinesis, Reverse Gravity and Prysmatic Wall. Pull boss/enemies through Prismatic Wall dealing 50d6 to 100d6 damage to them.

Hell, let your Simulacrum also cast Prismatic Wall. Pull them through both. Dealing 100d6 to 200d6 damage or half if they succeed on all 5 saves.

As Lore Bard I guarantee you you can deal more damage than rest of your party if you want.

[Joe the Rat]

As everyone says, Warlock 2 for invocations. You also gain a spare level 1 short-rest slot, and another Warlock spell
If you don't have already, Shield to avoid bumps or Armor of Agathys (no concentration, can upcast with your bard slots) for porcupine damage would not be amiss.
If you have Eldritch Blast, the Agonizing Blast / Repelling Blast or Repelling Blast / Grasp of Hadar combos are good. I'd favor the latter, since it gives you better crowd control. Lance of Lethargy is also a handy move restrictor.

If you do not have or use Eldritch Blast, first of all welcome to the club. You can enhance your existing tricks with at will illusions (Mask of Many Faces, Misty Visions) or information gathering (Gaze of Two Minds, Eyes of the Runekeeper). Devil's Sight is nice, but you already have Darkvision, and Armor of Shadows is less useful when you can wear actual armor. I am also a fan of Eldritch Sight (if your wizard neglected to learn detect magic, or you find yourself splitting up quite a bit). If for some reason you didn't have Persuasion and Deception, Beguiling Influence would round out your socials. Also consider Toll the Dead - A Wisdom save cantrip, so viable 0-60', dropping 2d12 on the already injured.

You actually have good melee on your team, so it might be worthwhile to develop some switch-hitting or up your skirmish. Bard 8 and grab the Mobile feat. run a little faster, and you can stab-and-run-away-even-on-a-miss if necessary.

[Dork_Forge]

I'm really not a fan of the defaulting to Agonising Blast suggestions, the character is clearly intended to be a Gish whether or not that is optimal isn't the question, it's about squeezing out more damage from the build and playstyle as it is.

To OP: It seems like your biggest issue was actually hitting things and between fixing your weapon macro and your proficiency bonus increasing that shouldn't be as much of an issue now, likewise I assume that when you did hit you were actually subtracting 2 damage not adding it. So your damage should relatively jump up compared to what you're used to anyway, you said that you felt lacking compared to the Rage damage of the Barbarian, just dipping one level in Fighter and picking up Dueling should easily bring you on par/higher than that (Rage bonus damage it eh for the most part). If you don't have it already look to getting Armor of Agathys as well for some action free damage and extra durability in melee.

You should also keep in mind that your damage may start to feel a little lack lustre in levels 9 and 10, this is just because you're reaching the end of tier 2 and your SCAGtrip damage is about to jump another d8 (imo just the fix on your sheet and Dueling should satisfy you though until then based on what you've described).

[Alucard89]

I'm really not a fan of the defaulting to Agonising Blast suggestions, the character is clearly intended to be a Gish whether or not that is optimal isn't the question, it's about squeezing out more damage from the build and playstyle as it is.

To OP: It seems like your biggest issue was actually hitting things and between fixing your weapon macro and your proficiency bonus increasing that shouldn't be as much of an issue now, likewise I assume that when you did hit you were actually subtracting 2 damage not adding it. So your damage should relatively jump up compared to what you're used to anyway, you said that you felt lacking compared to the Rage damage of the Barbarian, just dipping one level in Fighter and picking up Dueling should easily bring you on par/higher than that (Rage bonus damage it eh for the most part). If you don't have it already look to getting Armor of Agathys as well for some action free damage and extra durability in melee.

You should also keep in mind that your damage may start to feel a little lack lustre in levels 9 and 10, this is just because you're reaching the end of tier 2 and your SCAGtrip damage is about to jump another d8 (imo just the fix on your sheet and Dueling should satisfy you though until then based on what you've described).

He won't get satysfing damage from melee. Lore Bard is not made for that. Until you have Tenser Tranformation + Hate + Sim your melee damage suck and will suck.

You are not Paladin, Barb or Fighter and you are not Sword or Valor Bard build for melee.

[AttilatheYeon]

Warcaster would also do wonders with your damage. Dissonant Whisper + OA BB is pretty decent, even next to the barb and pally. In short my advice is to use DW a lot 😉

[Alucard89]

Warcaster would also do wonders with your damage. Dissonant Whisper + OA BB is pretty decent, even next to the barb and pally. In short my advice is to use DW a lot 😉

As someone who played Lore Bard the problem with that is that you have double chance of failure with that plan. First of all - you move to melee range which is already bad, you are not melee character. Second you cast Dissonant Whisper and enemy has a save. If he passes you wasted action and you won't do OA BB combo. In short- you did nothing and now you are in melee range.

I love gishes as anyone else but Lore Bard is not good choice for magic n sword gameplay. Not till higher levels.

[Dork_Forge]

He won't get satysfing damage from melee. Lore Bard is not made for that. Until you have Tenser Tranformation + Hate + Sim your melee damage suck and will suck.

You are not Paladin, Barb or Fighter and you are not Sword or Valor Bard build for melee.

Again, I am well aware that it is not optimal, but they clealry want to play as a Gish and their threshold for satisfying damage seems low (they cited Rage as being a significant source of damage, let's face it, outside of GWM/Zealots Barbarians aren't exactly known for their damage output) so just telling them to do the Warlock default thing is not only uninteresting but clearly not the playstyle they're after. 2d8+1d6+7 with a rider or free 1d8+5 auto damage is pretty decent at will damage, Agonising Blast wouldn't really be much better especially since it'd be -2 to hit comparatively and if they do self cast Haste their damage becomes respectable with the versatility of casting AoA or any number of control spells whenever they want. Throw the occasional Hexblade's Curse in there and their damage will likely be competing with the Barbarian (19.5 at will damage, boosted to 23.5 with HBC and if taking the dip I recommend then boosted to 21.5 and 25.5 respectively with Dueling).