what to get after 18th level psion.

[newguydude1]

i got nothing.

extremely summarized version of my psion
1-16 astral construct spam
17 use reality revision to create scrolls of simulacrum that cost less than 25,000gp (up to cl37), a wand of improvisation (cl33), and just umd the scrolls of simulacrum. this gets me 37hd monsters.
18 grab a prc with a caster level (death delver), grab scribe scroll, create a simulacrum of an ethergaunt, use reality revision to give him a spellbook with wish, create scrolls of wishes myself with me providing xp and the feat and the ethergaunt providing the caster level and spell to create wands of improvisation with like caster level 200, scrolls of simulacrum with like caster level 100, and just umd them for epic level.

and thats my epic level strategy. pit epic monsters with other epic monsters.

i dont want to go psion any further because theres nothing i want from it.
i dont want to get epic spellcasting or the psionic version of it because theres no effect that i want. other than the race change trick thing that gives me regeneration, immunity to nonlethal damage, and bunch of other things which is too cheesy for actually play i think.

with all of the free wish threads that popped up, i thought about getting my own free wish like 2 divine crusader and 9 divine agent, but i already got free wishes
metamorphic transfer phasm into zodar into wish.
create a simulacrum of a solar or efreeti
psionic version of shapechange to zodar up.
so whats the point of serving a deity 11 levels for a wish sla.
i thought about dweomerkeeper but i dont have the cha to cast 9th level spells of divine crusader, at at least divine agent lets me keep the wish should i decide to leave the religion.

i thought about grabbing gate with open soul chakra and planar chasuble soul meld but whats the point of gate when i got simulacrum.

i thought about going ur priest for 9th level divine casting, but whats the point. what does 9th level divine casting give me. ur priest has no domain slots so going contemplative doesnt solve clerics small spell list.

i looked through all the epic prcs. none take my interest

i thought about grabbing extract demonic essence. thatll take up a good 3 feats for cheaper simulacrum.

dm is enforcing multiclass penalty so i cant just go 17 wizard.

so at this point im just going divine crusader, divine agent, and extract demonic essence because theres really nothing else for me to do.

so please help. what do you guys get for epic levels?

[magicalmagicman]

i thought about going ur priest for 9th level divine casting, but whats the point. what does 9th level divine casting give me. ur priest has no domain slots so going contemplative doesnt solve clerics small spell list.

I find divine insight + surge of fortune's ability to pass any and all skill checks extremely useful. So I'd grab 5 levels of ur priest just for that.

IIRC you're playing a warforged right? There's a PrC called Visionary Seeker that lets you mimic any divine or arcane spell you saw within the last 24 hours for free. So create and cast an arcane scroll of wish using your ethergaunt thing, and then use spell mimic to create a ring of spell storing as a warforged component, and then finally use a 2nd spell mimic to create another arcane scroll of wish, and cast it into your ring of spell storing. Now you can cast wishes for free without serving a deity as long as you use one of your spell mimics per day to create an arcane scroll of wish to cast into your ring of spell storing.

edit: Thank Troacctid btw for this trick. She's the one who informed me of this PrC.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A level in ardent with Magic mantle so you can take Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) to boost ALL of your MLs to equal your HD, and you can ignore Concentration checks and SR/PR completely. Then start finding things that add your MLs together, like psychic spellthief and the Master SpellPsithief feat. Then start dipping more manifesting classes. That will massively boost your MLs (HD x the number of manifesting classes you have), and as such, you'll get a great big boost to your power points, as well, since you gain the bonus pp from all of your classes (at max ML). Normally, it's really hard to get more power points and tons of manifester levels in epic, but this will massively boost both totals with each dip you get.

You may want to consider going for illithid savant, as well. You can devour creatures and NPCs with character classes you want the abilities of. You want to eat a metamind for the capstone? Go for it. You want to dip levels in various PrCs and base classes early on so you can get high level abilities later via eating a high level legacy champion? Go for that, too. (Note: Feel free to add those virtual levels to illithid savant...) How about eating a StP erudite for the learning mechanic, added on to ardent to learn powers and spells? Make sure to learn from dragons who can cast cleric spells (and druid spells, with the Child of Eberron archetype) as arcane spells.

You have plenty of options. Really, it depends on how much optimization and cheese you're willing to go for.

[newguydude1]

I find divine insight + surge of fortune's ability to pass any and all skill checks extremely useful. So I'd grab 5 levels of ur priest just for that.

IIRC you're playing a warforged right? There's a PrC called Visionary Seeker that lets you mimic any divine or arcane spell you saw within the last 24 hours for free. So create and cast an arcane scroll of wish using your ethergaunt thing, and then use spell mimic to create a ring of spell storing as a warforged component, and then finally use a 2nd spell mimic to create another arcane scroll of wish, and cast it into your ring of spell storing. Now you can cast wishes for free without serving a deity as long as you use one of your spell mimics per day to create an arcane scroll of wish to cast into your ring of spell storing.

edit: Thank Troacctid btw for this trick. She's the one who informed me of this PrC.

thanks i take a look. and yeah divine insight and surge of fortune are awesome but i can also make schemas of them.


A level in ardent with Magic mantle so you can take Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) to boost ALL of your MLs to equal your HD, and you can ignore Concentration checks and SR/PR completely. Then start finding things that add your MLs together, like psychic spellthief and the Master SpellPsithief feat. Then start dipping more manifesting classes. That will massively boost your MLs (HD x the number of manifesting classes you have), and as such, you'll get a great big boost to your power points, as well, since you gain the bonus pp from all of your classes (at max ML). Normally, it's really hard to get more power points and tons of manifester levels in epic, but this will massively boost both totals with each dip you get.

You may want to consider going for illithid savant, as well. You can devour creatures and NPCs with character classes you want the abilities of. You want to eat a metamind for the capstone? Go for it. You want to dip levels in various PrCs and base classes early on so you can get high level abilities later via eating a high level legacy champion? Go for that, too. (Note: Feel free to add those virtual levels to illithid savant...) How about eating a StP erudite for the learning mechanic, added on to ardent to learn powers and spells? Make sure to learn from dragons who can cast cleric spells (and druid spells, with the Child of Eberron archetype) as arcane spells.

You have plenty of options. Really, it depends on how much optimization and cheese you're willing to go for.

i cant dip ardent because my dm employs multiclass penalties.

im not an illithid so i cant take that prc either.

you got anything else? you seem knowledgeable about this kind of high end stuff.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

i cant dip ardent because my dm employs multiclass penalties.

im not an illithid so i cant take that prc either.

you got anything else? you seem knowledgeable about this kind of high end stuff.If you're starting near epic, just start with a ton of dips, and spend money on learning powers to add to your ardent dip. It's a lot easier to build it at a high level, although even at lower levels, this is something you can do. You just need to make sure ardent is one of your first dips, then focus on dipping throughout your career.

I have a level 21 gestalt build with no more than 1 level in anything, aside from illithid savant, in which I have 3 levels. I use that third level to eat a high level legacy champion (or a clone thereof) to add virtual levels to illithid savant, followed by more virtual levels in legacy champion, followed by more virtual levels in all of my dips.

And yes, given you gain the types and subtypes of whatever you turn into (including things like Humanoid [Human] and Aberration ), [I]metamorphosis or polymorph should allow you to go illithid (and thus take levels in illithid savant). Remember, you only have to eat a brain; nothing says it has to be removed from the body it came from, so feel free to acquire the Swallow Whole quality, then vomit 'em out when you've got your desired ability.

You could, instead, just focus on breaking the action economy over your knee, find quick ways to do power point regen, and just spam powers bigtime. Things like SR: No powers (like crystal shard and swarm of crystals) can deal huge amounts of damage in a short time, especially with lots of standard actions to play with.

And there are lots of tricks here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?177889-Brainstorm-for-Psionic-Tricks-Tactics-and-Combos-Handbook), many of which are not included in the unupdated original post.

[sorcererlover]

If you got everything you want then just get nothing. Pick psion and end it at that. You don't need to optimize every single aspect of your character. You have an epic level strategy. A really strong one at that too. You have the ability to cheese really hard. What more could you possibly want?

Spend 100% of your gained xp after 18 into creating simulacra of epic creatures. Your low level lets you gain extreme xp per kill. Your extreme xp lets you create an army of advanced epic creatures.

[Psyren]

i cant dip ardent because my dm employs multiclass penalties.

What race are you? If you're human then 18/2 shouldn't have any penalties.

[newguydude1]

What race are you? If you're human then 18/2 shouldn't have any penalties.

magicalmagicman remembered right. i am warforged scout. favored race is rogue. i might get 1 level to get umd as class skill instead of cross class skill and use the 13 skill points to max it.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

magicalmagicman remembered right. i am warforged scout. favored race is rogue. i might get 1 level to get umd as class skill instead of cross class skill and use the 13 skill points to max it.Shapers gain UPD as a class skill. Assuming you don't play with it as such already, Magic mantle turns UPD into UMD, as well.

[Psyren]

magicalmagicman remembered right. i am warforged scout. favored race is rogue. i might get 1 level to get umd as class skill instead of cross class skill and use the 13 skill points to max it.

Fair enough, but you'd only have to deal with the penalties for one level unless you're going epic.

[newguydude1]

Shapers gain UPD as a class skill. Assuming you don't play with it as such already, Magic mantle turns UPD into UMD, as well.

i cant go ardent cause multiclass penalty.


Fair enough, but you'd only have to deal with the penalties for one level unless you're going epic.

i use xp to create simulacra so i can never have 20% penalty. and i am going epic. this thread is to figure out what is there for me to get for epic cause i cant seem to find anything better than simulacrum.

[Segev]

I normally recommend this build starting much earlier, but it might actually not be nearly as broken for your level.

Get Metamorphic Transfer. Find a way to get somebody to cast polymorph any object on you to turn you into a Beholder. (This will hit your intelligence, sadly, so you'll need to beef that back up. you should retain your inherent bonuses, but you'll likely lose some or all of your level-up bonuses). Because you have Metamorphic Transfer, you'll have the always-on anti-magic eye as one use of your form's (Su) abilities. This means you have it to sacrifice to meet a class prerequisite.

Go into Beholder Mage for 2 levels. It's a PrC; it won't inflict multiclass penalties. Again due to Metamorphic Transfer, you have the eye stalks with their spell-like abilities. NEVER USE THEM. Because you have them, you can sacrifice them at each level you gain a new spell level to get a new spell stalk. Since this is a class feature, the spell stalks can be used at will.

Up to you whether you switch to Cerebromancer to continue advancing your psion levels after Beholder Mage 2, or you keep running Beholder Mage straight up because you don't care about getting more manifester levels. Beholder Mage doesn't give you much that Cerebromancer won't, but it does keep pushing the strength of your Arcane Hands up by 1 per level, to a maximum of 10. (I'd just use telekinesis from my psionic powers, myself.)

The advantage of being a beholder mage / psion is that you can cast one spell of every level available to you via beholder mage as a free action once per round. You can't use your mouth for anything but singing your spellsong, but you CAN manifest powers - purely mental actions - while casting a spell of every level available to you.

Sure, you've got better powers than the initially low-level spells, but this is pure action economy.

[newguydude1]

I normally recommend this build starting much earlier, but it might actually not be nearly as broken for your level.

Get Metamorphic Transfer. Find a way to get somebody to cast polymorph any object on you to turn you into a Beholder. (This will hit your intelligence, sadly, so you'll need to beef that back up. you should retain your inherent bonuses, but you'll likely lose some or all of your level-up bonuses). Because you have Metamorphic Transfer, you'll have the always-on anti-magic eye as one use of your form's (Su) abilities. This means you have it to sacrifice to meet a class prerequisite.

Go into Beholder Mage for 2 levels. It's a PrC; it won't inflict multiclass penalties. Again due to Metamorphic Transfer, you have the eye stalks with their spell-like abilities. NEVER USE THEM. Because you have them, you can sacrifice them at each level you gain a new spell level to get a new spell stalk. Since this is a class feature, the spell stalks can be used at will.

Up to you whether you switch to Cerebromancer to continue advancing your psion levels after Beholder Mage 2, or you keep running Beholder Mage straight up because you don't care about getting more manifester levels. Beholder Mage doesn't give you much that Cerebromancer won't, but it does keep pushing the strength of your Arcane Hands up by 1 per level, to a maximum of 10. (I'd just use telekinesis from my psionic powers, myself.)

The advantage of being a beholder mage / psion is that you can cast one spell of every level available to you via beholder mage as a free action once per round. You can't use your mouth for anything but singing your spellsong, but you CAN manifest powers - purely mental actions - while casting a spell of every level available to you.

Sure, you've got better powers than the initially low-level spells, but this is pure action economy.

i forgot to mention when MaxiDuRaritry suggested, no using polymorph to qualify for prcs. because dm said no to that.

i have metamorphic transfer though.

[Segev]

i forgot to mention when MaxiDuRaritry suggested, no using polymorph to qualify for prcs. because dm said no to that.

i have metamorphic transfer though.

How broad is "no using polymorph," here? Is this meant to be, "You can't qualify for PrCs that require a race other than the one you started with?" Or is it specific to polymorph?

There are other ways - particularly at your level - to become a Beholder. True Mind Switch is the most obvious to me.

[newguydude1]

How broad is "no using polymorph," here? Is this meant to be, "You can't qualify for PrCs that require a race other than the one you started with?" Or is it specific to polymorph?

There are other ways - particularly at your level - to become a Beholder. True Mind Switch is the most obvious to me.

astral seed and mind switch would probably work. but i dont think beholder mage is gonna be accepted. while my dm allows all books, he doesnt allow for overly complicated entries like using versatile spellcaster, dmm heighten, or polymorph. he allows astral seed and mindswitch.

i do like beholder mage because its the ur priest of arcane spells but i just dont think itll fly with my dm.

[WesleyVos]

dm is enforcing multiclass penalty so i cant just go 17 wizard.

Ouch. DMs still do this?

[newguydude1]

Ouch. DMs still do this?

he says its the cost of allowing everything and going pure raw rulings. im doing some crazy stuff so im not complaining.

[WesleyVos]

he says its the cost of allowing everything and going pure raw rulings. im doing some crazy stuff so im not complaining.

That's messed up. It severely penalizes mundanes. Wizard 20 is a powerful, viable build. Fighter 20 is, well, ugh.

[Segev]

astral seed and mind switch would probably work. but i dont think beholder mage is gonna be accepted. while my dm allows all books, he doesnt allow for overly complicated entries like using versatile spellcaster, dmm heighten, or polymorph. he allows astral seed and mindswitch.

i do like beholder mage because its the ur priest of arcane spells but i just dont think itll fly with my dm.

Hm. I guess it's a question of what "overly complicated" is. I mean, the only thing you're doing is becoming a beholder. As long as you're a beholder, you qualify.