The Redemption of Asmodeus

[Conradine]

In your opinion there is still a chance, no matter how much abysmally little, that Asmodeus could turn his back to Evil and rejoin the forces of Good ( which he belonged to, a long time ago )?

In his very long life, could Asmodeus doubted his choice even once? May he have still regrets? A shred of light in his soul?

[legomaster00156]

That is wholly up to a GM.

[KillianHawkeye]

Depends on the lore. I've never heard any that said he was originally Good. :smallconfused:

[Psyren]

Do you mean the 3.5 version or the PF version?

For the former, FC2 does say he was an angel prior to becoming Lord of the Ninth, tasked with battling the chaos of the Abyss and eventually founding Baator to be more effective at it.

For the latter, there's no record of him being anything other than Lord of Hell.

[Sutr]

Dicefreaks says he likes snuffing out that light in other people, but sure why not. Have a campaign about making Asmodeous feel bad.

[zfs]

Per accepted lore? Almost certainly not. He has the ability to love individuals - Bensozia, Glasya - but the cornerstone of his existence is his triumph over the Gods re: the Pact Primeval and now he's got his plans upon plans upon plans.

But it's your game. You can turn Orcus into a mahou shoujo whose Wand now only shoots rainbows and turns things into unicorns. Go ham.

[Zecrin]

If you wanted to achieve this mechanically, I advise you either:

A. Trick him into drawing the Balance from the Deck of Many Things.

B. Cast the "Sanctify the Wicked" spell from BoED

C. Transform him into a fanatic using ELH diplomacy

[WesleyVos]

Depends on whether you're the DM or the player.

As a player, there's no reason why you shouldn't make that your eventual goal. Heck, the DM might decide to play along and maybe it'll succeed.

If you're the DM...

Here's what I'd do. I'd give hints and clues that he might be willing to turn, for the right reason. You leave the possibility open. String the players along with other evil creatures to turn (or seem to) back to good. Have them give the players quests and adventures that seem to be good but actually advance Asmodeus's plans (though hopefully without them finding out). Eventually have them meet the big guy himself and have him say that he regrets his actions and wants to return, but he can't while certain conditions still exist. Have him make a well-worded pact that brings the PCs into his service, thinking they are doing good. Make sure it has some fine print that includes something about their souls, maybe have him explain (if asked) that it just covers himself in the case of other lords getting word of his intentions. Give them reasonably good tasks at first, get them hooked. Then slowly start putting them in positions of moral dilemmas. Eventually, they'll either break their contract, triggering the clause where he owns their souls, or they will fall completely into his service. Then the game becomes either kill Asmodeus or find another way to free their souls.

I kinda want to play in that game now...

[Afghanistan]

Per accepted lore? Almost certainly not. He has the ability to love individuals - Bensozia, Glasya

I mean... Did he REALLY love Bensozia and does he REALLY love Glasya? As dark as it might seem, Asmodeus as an unloving, or at least uncaring, monster seems far more inline with his character to say the least. I've never viewed Asmodeus as encapsulating the violence or passion of evil, but the emptiness of it all and how ultimately evil leaves you with nothing. If nothing else, I imagine as Bensozia as being a tool to create discord among the Lord of the Nines as they contemplate this new arrival as a potential threat to their power base, a role that Glasya has more than managed to emulate after the death of her mother. In the end, they were just tools for him to maintain order.

[GrayDeath]

Going by the 3.5 Lore (ergo ffallen incredibly powerful Angel who fell due to doi8ng too much Evil in fighting to ,prevent Existence from being swallowed by the Abyss) I would say the ONLY way to get him back into the fold" would happen after the Abyss is permanently sealed off/destroyed/otherwise PERMANENTLY removed as a threat.
Otherwise both his Arrogance and his Dedication to his Goals and Law itself will not allow him to even contemplate it.

And even then I would say that just about everything would have to go perfectly to pull it off.

So with all of the above being true, I`d say its about as unlikely as a Nat 20. ^^

[Telonius]

No. He might be persuaded to turn his back on Evil, but he'd never be persuaded to turn his back on Law - and Law demands a balance. If he left Team Evil, his replacement - whoever it was - would be incompetent in comparison. I mean, Mephistopheles? Really? Yeah, Megatron is not going to leave Starscream in charge. He's in this for the long haul.

[zfs]

I mean... Did he REALLY love Bensozia and does he REALLY love Glasya? As dark as it might seem, Asmodeus as an unloving, or at least uncaring, monster seems far more inline with his character to say the least. I've never viewed Asmodeus as encapsulating the violence or passion of evil, but the emptiness of it all and how ultimately evil leaves you with nothing. If nothing else, I imagine as Bensozia as being a tool to create discord among the Lord of the Nines as they contemplate this new arrival as a potential threat to their power base, a role that Glasya has more than managed to emulate after the death of her mother. In the end, they were just tools for him to maintain order.

Yes, per lore, he truly loved Bensozia. In the same way Thanos truly loved Gamora. Moreso, I suppose, because he didn't kill Bensozia - Levistus did, and look what Asmodeus did to him because of it.

[NontheistCleric]

I mean... Did he REALLY love Bensozia and does he REALLY love Glasya? As dark as it might seem, Asmodeus as an unloving, or at least uncaring, monster seems far more inline with his character to say the least. I've never viewed Asmodeus as encapsulating the violence or passion of evil, but the emptiness of it all and how ultimately evil leaves you with nothing. If nothing else, I imagine as Bensozia as being a tool to create discord among the Lord of the Nines as they contemplate this new arrival as a potential threat to their power base, a role that Glasya has more than managed to emulate after the death of her mother. In the end, they were just tools for him to maintain order.

Maybe yes, maybe no. Ultimately, his actions towards them could be interpreted both ways, and apart from being the DM and thus able to determine what exactly Asmodeus' motivations are in your own campaign, it's impossible to know for sure.

Perhaps a better way to look at it is this: Even if he did really love his wife and daughter, that doesn't detract from his portrayal as a being that embodies evil. Good and evil aren't about how you treat your loved ones, but rather how you treat those you don't especially care about.

As for evil leaving one with nothing, I would say that this probably can't be true, at least in D&D. Although real-world behaviors we would call 'evil' can often be self-destructive and are unlikely to result in good ends, in D&D evil is a moral choice with just as much validity and substance as good.

[Psyren]

Even if you succeed in "redeeming" him - I get the feeling that Hell would still need a leader. And I would imagine that his successor could easily end up being worse than he was (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GreaterScopeVillain) - less content with subtle machinations that span millennia, more in favor of a direct approach, or just being more accepting of collateral damage when achieving his goals. Or worse, his successor may just be less competent, leading to a tippic of the scales in favor of the Abyss. His most likely successor, Mephistopheles, fits all these to a tee - his response to any form of challenge is much more scorched-earth, and he's not as smart as Asmodeus despite thinking he is superior, a dangerous combination for the cosmos.

[zfs]

Telonius also makes a very good point. Law vs. Chaos is a much older and more fundamental conflict than Good vs. Evil. Asmodeus's devotion to Law at least equals, and likely overshadows, his devotion to Evil.

[Buufreak]

Telonius also makes a very good point. Law vs. Chaos is a much older and more fundamental conflict than Good vs. Evil. Asmodeus's devotion to Law at least equals, and likely overshadows, his devotion to Evil.

That was my thought. Lore help me, but the asmodeus I knew was the gods' champion, and it was the toll of the war that made them think that even though this started as law v chaos, they suddenly needed a new classification to distance themselves from the warped being asmodeus had become. Ergo, it is entirely possible that he doesn't even notice that he is evil.

[Jowgen]

Mechanically, it is doable. Provided you somehow... by some inconceivable methods... manage to beat him into submission and take him prisoner first.

First step is to get rid of his Evil subtype, as having that precludes redemption (BoED p. 29). The most straightforward way of doing so is the Ritual of Alignment from Savage Species p. 148. Requires a 7th level caster with the Good domain, the expenditure of 56.000 gp and 2240 exp, and for the subject to succeed on a DC 20 to 25 Will save (25 for gaining subtype without concurrent alignment change) while being... and this is a sticking point... willing.

Now technically, per PHB p. 175, unconscious creatures are automatically considered "Willing", but even if that flies it might be judged to mean the target also forgoes its save for the Ritual, which if failed kills the subject. So a safer option would be to employ a sufficiently powerful charm or compulsion effect. Weirdly enough, per his stackblock in FCII, Asmodeus is not immune to those as far as I can tell.

The next step is to put Asmodeus through the redemption process. That means 1 hour of counselling every day, with him making a Will save DC equal to the Diplomacy check of his therapist. Failing 7 days in a row moves him to neutral, andother 7 move him to Good. Other than pumping Diplomacy DC, you can also debuff his saves with negative levels, wis damage and such.

Once he is Good, you need to get rid of his Corruption points (FCII p. 30) to save him from eternal damnation. For that you need to get him to atone for his evil deeds as part of an Atonement spell, which'll invovle him making up for all the bad things he's ever done. Think "My Name is Earl" but for trillions of seasons. As to what exactly he should do, you can find that out by getting a Paladin of a real forgiving Good-aligned deity and having them use Detect Evil while wearing a Pendant of Redemption (CD).


Now does this make sense fluff-wise? I'd say yeah. First comes purging his tangible being of all the accumulated evil, which nessecitates forcing him to let go of it. Now that he's free of the essence of Evil, the guy will need oodles of therapy to see why his behaviour was bad. Lastly, to actually be redeemed he needs to make appropriate restitution. If would be most foolhardy to assume Asmodeus would participate in any bit of this process if given literally any other choice, as you are in essence breaking him down to build him back up again; and that ain't fun or in line with his goals.

Besides, Asmodeus respects only on thing, and that is power. So the only way one could believeably get through to him is to approach him from a position of domineering strength.

[Berenger]

I think that evil creatures need to have some capacity for neutral / good thoughts, behaviour and alignment. If they lack any ability to change themselves, they are not really evil, just unaligned beings that happen to be dangerous.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Sure! All that needs to happen is for the deities of Good to embrace Asmodeus and his methods, join him in his fight agains the Abyss, and give him his rightful seat atop Mount Celestia. Which is very easy to arrange, I'm sure, you just need to work out some of the details.

[Malphegor]

There was that statted out succubus paladin so there is precedent for irrevocably evil beings being converted to good... (she coulda done it with atonement snd everything but she wanted to do it 'the hard way so its real' which, major respect to that succubus, shame in a few paragraphs wotc statted her as a blackguard showing what happens if she fails to become a good being)

With the power of love!

So I highly recommend everyone play a celestial of some sort and try to seduce D&D's equivalent to Satan to join the light, I'll make the popcorn, it'll be amazing.

[Genth]

The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing people he used to be an Angel.

Asmodeus lies. Always. The idea of him perpetuating the idea that he used to be Good, all so that people in their desperation might try and appeal to his "good side".... well, certainly not out of the question.

[DeTess]

So I highly recommend everyone play a celestial of some sort and try to seduce D&D's equivalent to Satan to join the light, I'll make the popcorn, it'll be amazing.

I'd play in that campaign.

[Eldan]

What hasn't been mentioned yet is Asmodeus' possible third origin as the Serpent of Law. That one is almost certainly not redeemable.

The problem is, as others have mentioned... who is going to suceed Asmodeus as Lord of Hell? And how big of a job are they going to be doing fighting the forces of chaos?

I mean, look at the possible candidates. They would all be horrible at the job. Mephistopheles, Levistus, Baalzebul, Geryon... none of them could unite the forces of law to keep up the blood war.
Most likely, redeeming Big A leads to a civil war that makes the Reckoning of Hell look like a walk in the park. Which means the Demons win. Which means bye-bye peace and civilization forever.

[Lord Haart]

Well, first, can you even prove He isn't Good?

No, really, can you? Sure, it's easy to say "tempting people into sin is bad!" or "torturing souls is bad!" or "kicking puppies is bad!".

It's also easy to say "sticking a sword into a man until he dies is bad!", "taking candy from a child is bad!" or "flooding an anthill is bad!" Yet if a paladin sticks his sword into a known criminal that's about to shoot a hostage, do we not call the paladin Good? If a mother is fast enough to snatch a candy that her gluttonous child had picked up from the floor, do we not think of her as a good, caring mother? If an engineer manages to reroute a river, irrigating dry fields and saving a village from drought, doesn't his good deed far outweight the plight of ants?

It's the context that decides our judgement; the intent, and a capacity to be effective at implementing said intent. (Good intent without a capacity to act effectively on it is not an admirable trait; a fool trying to plough the sand is not doing much good to anyone)

Do you presume to know the context of an unimaginably old cosmic being's actions? Do you expect Him to claim His intent openly, and would you even believe Him if He did? Or do you think that all His intelligence, wisdom and eternity of experience don't make Him qualified to realise that some actions He could perform, however noble-looking in the moment, would be futile in the long run on worse, bring on horrible consequences?

If there's one thing certain about Him, it's that He plays a long game. Longer than you could even imagine.

And there are sources that indicate that His end goals perfectly align with Lawful Good ones (especially if you take FC2's story at the face value). End the threat that the Abyss poses to the whole ordered existence. Don't let the Yugoloths gain dominion over mortal souls, or the Slaadi to disjoint the Planes and the Prime into gibbering chaos, or the mad prisoners of Tartarus and Pandemonium to break free and rekindle their war on gods. Teach the mortals to know virtue from vice, to understand the value of unity, structure and cooperation, and to judge each other not by impulse but by Law. Banish the Evil souls so they won't take a place in the Heavens among the pure-hearted, contaminating them and eventually reducing the Heavens themselves to a mockery. Motivate the strong to be responsible for the weak, and the weak to strive to be stronger.

But you can't achieve all of that at once, with no expediture of resources, just by announcing your intent to the Multiverse and snapping your fingers, can you? The Heavens certainly haven't so far. You can take a moral stand yet achieve nothing, or you can go for it step by step… Recognising that sometimes, one needs to prioritise; and sometimes, one needs to make sacrifices.

You need resources, numbers, power to get anything done at all in this hostile world — or you fail, and your cause never mattered. For millenia, the Multiverse has been locked in endless stalemates, so obviously you can't change anything for Good without breaking these — and if it were obvious how to achieve that, suirely somebody would've done so a long time ago?

You need to defeat the demons and other threats. Well, that's an obvious thing to say. But try to let it sink in: you need, you have to defeat demons, in a scenario absolutely stacked in their favor — or you fail, every useless little good you ever did gets destroyed forever, and your cause never mattered. You cannot half-ass that and hope for the best; there will be no best if you don't achieve the impossible. You cannot stop to take care of a puppy. You cannot swerve to avoid a puppy on the road. Or you quite possibly doom all puppies ever destinied to live. That's the unfortunate reality, and there's nothing Good about blinding yourself to it.

You know what never happened in the human history? A pacifistic utopia that haven't fallen to external forces. To build an utopia is the easy-ish part. The hard part is to secure it. And the hard part has to come first.

Sure, the devils He lords over aren't all noble, or have any good goals themselves. Most of them are utter bastards. Were bastards in life as well. Maybe once everything else is dealt with, He will be able to try and bring every sinful spirit to redemption; but with so many immediate threats, with the forces of Upper Planes so dramatically insufficient to do anything of significance (they couldn't even hold the line against the Abyss if not for His armies — armies born of pragmatism), He has to settle with making lemonade out of lemons, and getting at least some good use out of these poor unfortunate souls. Sure, you can claim that some of these only wound up Evil because of Hell's influence; but by succubus' breasts, Hell did not invent temptation! There is plenty of corrupters — whether demonic, fey, daemonic, undead, daimonic, draconic, diemonic or totally not from around here; if a soul is corruptible, it's a solid bet that something or other will snack on it earlier than later. At worst, He's guilty of denying all these other evil powers their resources; not a nonsensible strategy in a war.

You may look at the devils and see scary, greedy, homicidal, totally rotten, utterly evil malevolent beings. I look at the devils, and see scary, greedy, utterly evil malevolent beings caged in bodies of metal and brimstone, shaped into weapons rather than chaotic beasts, forcibly taught obedience and discipline, kept on a short leash instead of being allowed to run amok. A destructive and evil force, yes, but, unlike the demons etc., bent and shaped to obey their Master, to serve a higher purpose. Would you feel safer if Baator was by now named New Abyssia or Yugotartaria? Are you sure enough that the purpose the devils are made to serve isn't, secretly, an actual higher purpose?

And of course, not even the best planners can make everything go as planned. And the other side has chessmasters, too. He probably had to improvise, and He surely had to adjust to the cards He's been dealt, and to the servants He's got rather than servants He deserves. As already noted many times in this thread, He has to keep ruling Baator, and He has to do that in a way that's acceptable to His minions, and does not belay weakness or worse, tolerance; otherwise, the Hell will come apart, and make things a lot worse in the process (best case scenario, new ruler's methods are so much more straightforward and cruel, and the mortals suffer for it; obvious case scenario, Hell can't hold itself together, loses the Blood War, and we're back to the War of Law and Chaos except with even worse chances). So suppose you'd suddenly take His place (and suppose you're 100% Good); would you, with a clear conscience, do anything differently than He does, oust yourself as a soft or unfit ruler, and risk dooming countless lives and souls?


It's not beyond the realm of imaginable that some day, when all the work is done and there are no more evildoers in the Multiverse, He will turn Himself in for all the atrocities He had to commit to get the Multiverse there. To be judged not by our puny animal reactions, but by a just, proper, exhaustive and all-encompassing Law. A fair Law that will not fail to consider the whole story, from the very beginning to the very end, leaving no uncertainities, no ambiguity, no room for bias. A Law He wrote himself, of course, for who else ever could?

[redking]

Basically no. Or rather, Asmodeus is the incarnation of metaphysical principles, and Asmodeus changing would have cosmic implications.

[GrayDeath]

What hasn't been mentioned yet is Asmodeus' possible third origin as the Serpent of Law. That one is almost certainly not redeemable.

The problem is, as others have mentioned... who is going to suceed Asmodeus as Lord of Hell? And how big of a job are they going to be doing fighting the forces of chaos?

I mean, look at the possible candidates. They would all be horrible at the job. Mephistopheles, Levistus, Baalzebul, Geryon... none of them could unite the forces of law to keep up the blood war.
Most likely, redeeming Big A leads to a civil war that makes the Reckoning of Hell look like a walk in the park. Which means the Demons win. Which means bye-bye peace and civilization forever.

@ Arguing he may be nonEvil: See my Post above.

The ONLY way this can even start is once the Abyss is dealt with.
Permanently.

Only then the mix of actual terrible need for an ironfisted Lord of Hell, His own Arrogance, and the ongoing War will be gone.

And ONLY without these is a redemption truly possible (cause even if you managed to turn him good, he could not in good conscience abandon his rule over hell for the very good reasons mentioned by 4+ Posters^^).

[Psyren]

@ Arguing he may be nonEvil: See my Post above.

The ONLY way this can even start is once the Abyss is dealt with.
Permanently.

Only then the mix of actual terrible need for an ironfisted Lord of Hell, His own Arrogance, and the ongoing War will be gone.

And ONLY without these is a redemption truly possible (cause even if you managed to turn him good, he could not in good conscience abandon his rule over hell for the very good reasons mentioned by 4+ Posters^^).

I think there is an alternative to this scenario - namely, there is still a Lord of Hell, it's just not Asmo anymore. That would allow him to step down (or be removed from office) even if the Abyss is still a threat.

[GrayDeath]

I think there is an alternative to this scenario - namely, there is still a Lord of Hell, it's just not Asmo anymore. That would allow him to step down (or be removed from office) even if the Abyss is still a threat.

If Asmodeus wasnt too arrogant (partly rightly so) to accept anyone else as being a competent choice for that position, you would be right.

He wont in all likeliness though. ^^

[DeTess]

I think there is an alternative to this scenario - namely, there is still a Lord of Hell, it's just not Asmo anymore. That would allow him to step down (or be removed from office) even if the Abyss is still a threat.

That could actually make for a really cool conclusion of the above-mentioned 'redeem Asmodeus' campaign.

PC: Give it up, Asmodeus! We've outmaneuvered your every ploy and beaten up all your lieutenants! Even you can't hope to stand against our combined might. Please, come with us peacefully, as even for you there must still be hope!
Asmodeus: Very well then.
*Asmodeus gets up from his throne*
Asmodeus: However, there must always be a high lord of hell. One to stand fast against the baying hordes of the abyss, and to keep the attention of the devils focused on the greater evils. You all have proven to have the skill and strength necessary. But which of you is willing to make that sacrifice?

[Psyren]

If Asmodeus wasnt too arrogant (partly rightly so) to accept anyone else as being a competent choice for that position, you would be right.

He wont in all likeliness though. ^^

"In all likeliness" he wouldn't be redeemable either - we're already in a black swan scenario.

[Conradine]

I think Dispater would be the best candidate to replace Asmodeus. His cautious politics and defensive tactis are probably quite close to Asmodeus standard rule.

[Efrate]

I have always wondered. All outsiders are theoretically infinite. So why do we need devil's to fight the blood war? Shouldn't there be enough angels to cover that, keep the other nasty factions in check and still do their stuff.

Unless since Asmodaeus altered himself and his warriors to be similar to their enemies, is it all just part of a grand plan to keep them from having to suffer and die? Puts him pretty firmly in the Good Category IMO.


Of course that's all random supposition on my end.

[Conradine]

My opinion is that in most world, Evil and Good are not really balanced, with the Evil being prominent.
A bit like the world of Goblins.

For various reasons, most important:

1- Evil is easy, Good cost much labor
2- Evil is - most of times - more convenient than Good
3- if Evil and Good were truly balanced, Good would immediately win because the Good guys are much better at cooperation ( even better than Lawful Evil guys )

[InvisibleBison]

3- if Evil and Good were truly balanced, Good would immediately win because the Good guys are much better at cooperation ( even better than Lawful Evil guys )
That depends on what you mean by balanced, doesn't it? If balanced means that there's equal numbers of good and evil beings of equal power, then you're right. But if balanced means that neither side is able to destroy the other, than one side winning would by definition be unbalanced, whereas an eternal stalemate would be evidence of balance.

[Jowgen]

I have always wondered. All outsiders are theoretically infinite. So why do we need devil's to fight the blood war? Shouldn't there be enough angels to cover that, keep the other nasty factions in check and still do their stuff.

The Blood War is complicated.

The infiniteness of outsiders is not all created equal. Devils are not spawned naturally (Erinyes can give birth, but they're the exception), being entirely dependent on mortal souls to grow new stock from (although Asmodeus himself allegedly bleeds Pit Fiends). Meanwhile, the Abyss does spawn Demons naturally even in the absence of mortal souls; though some Tanar'ri sub-species like the Succubi are dependent on the existence of mortal sin as a coninuing cosmic concept. Celestials reproduce in a fashion similar to mortals, with only some supplementation by mortal soul ascending from time to time, meaning they recover losses in their forces quite slowly compared to the Fiends; which keeps them from going on the offensive. Also, Outsiders by en large share the trait that they can only be killed permanently while on their native plane, although being killed off world still puts you in time-out for a species dependent ammount of time.

The Demon's overall goal is nothing short of the eradication of all their enemies, but since that invariably includes other demons, the in-fighting in the Abyss prevents them from properly bringing their numerical superiority to the field. The Devils don't expect that they could permanently get rid of the Demons, instead aiming to force them into a sufficiently bad situation that they'll (at least temporarily) fall in line and agree to creating a unified front against the forces of Good (i.e. impose Law upon them). The Celestials are aware that if either side gets what they want, the upper planes will be unable to withstand the resulting force of evil, so they meddle when nessecary to keep the status quo (though the chaotic varieties tend to be bolder form time to time).

Asmodeus is of course aware of how the higher planes are maneuvering and he tolerates it, allowing them to do what they do to keep the war going (and thus buying him all the time he needs) while he plots and schemes, ever-adjusting his plays to set up for an eventual big final move that'll let him circumvent everything to checkmate the whole board permanently. Then he will have succeded in his mission, doing what the Heavens could not: bringing order to all of creation.

[NontheistCleric]

I think Dispater would be the best candidate to replace Asmodeus. His cautious politics and defensive tactis are probably quite close to Asmodeus standard rule.

Interestingly enough, at least in the account provided by Fiendish Codex II, Dispater was actually one of Asmodeus's original companions, along with Mephistopheles.