Builds that optimize for things besides combat?

[Rfkannen]

There was a post on reddit earlier about how min maxing for combat can be kind of meh as combat is just part of the game, and I thought that was very interesting. It got me thinking, what could you optimize for besides combat?

My first thought is the perfect face, get expertise in persuasion and deception, be a changeling or get mask of many faces, some enchantment spells... I'd probably do a whisper bard with 3 levels in great old one warlock, with a sprite familar that can tell me people's emotions.


Any other ideas for what you could optimize towards?

[ProsecutorGodot]

My Inquisitive Rogue was made to be a trap spotter and lie detector. There isn't a whole lot to do optimization wise, take Observant with proficiency in Investigation, Perception and Insight. I was able to get a Robe of Eyes which gave me advantage on Investigation and Perception checks that rely on sight and the feature from Inquisitive made the lowest roll to detect a lie an 8.

Ride off the high modifiers you have until level 11 when you get Reliable Talent.

It's worth noting that Rogue and Bard tend to accomplish non combat optimization best, because of Expertise. I'd wager there are very few cases where having a level or two in one of both of them won't be part of that sort of optimization.

[LudicSavant]

There was a post on reddit earlier about how min maxing for combat can be kind of meh as combat is just part of the game, and I thought that was very interesting. It got me thinking, what could you optimize for besides combat?

My first thought is the perfect face, get expertise in persuasion and deception, be a changeling or get mask of many faces, some enchantment spells... I'd probably do a whisper bard with 3 levels in great old one warlock, with a sprite familar that can tell me people's emotions.


Any other ideas for what you could optimize towards?

I generally optimize for well-rounded characters who excel both in and out of combat.

[WaroftheCrans]

Straight bard is probably the best possible face of a party. I just made a cleric that I optimized solely to have a high perception, as the dm and the rogue and edgelord warlock all like to pull sneaky stuff. I wish them luck getting past a passive perception of 30, which I will strive to get up to 35.

[DarknessEternal]

In 5th, combat is the only thing that benefits from optimization.

There's little difference between the guy who spends his entire character becoming good at some skill and the guy who just has proficiency when it comes to actual d20+something.

[Zetakya]

It's relatively easy to optimize any CHA-caster as a face, give or take some details. The most surprising one is probably Warlock, who have a lot of tools available from their Invocations if they choose to go that route.

Wizards, certain Clerics, Lore Bards and Inquisitive Rogues can be good "walking Library" types.

[Evaar]

There are lots of non-combat optimization builds floating around out there. Look for the thread on the Social God, for example.

What might be a good place to start is discussing what sort of categories of optimization are available.

Like we have the Social God, that fills the Face role. What other roles are worth building a character to specialize in? Because, sure, we could go Bard and get expertise in Performance and take the Entertainer background and then focus on gaining as many musical instrument proficiencies as possible but.. what is that character going to do in actual play?

[WaroftheCrans]

To evaars point, there is the lie detector/spotter archetype that comes with high investigation, perception and insight.
There's the walking library, that has arcana, history and religion, maybe throwing in nature.
Theres the outdoorsmen, which would be survival, animal handling, nature and (medicine?)
There's the cat burglar/petty criminal with sleight of hand, stealth and acrobatics, also benefiting from deception.

Of course, you can come up with other combos that fit a character concept well. These are just rather basic archetypes.

In the system however, its the social skills that matter, +insight, perception, stealth, acrobatics/athletics and investigation. The rest only come up situationally.

[OldTrees1]

Have you ever wanted to go on a tour of exotic locations? Did you hear about the vista from White Plume Mountain? Or about the cuisine from Undermountain's various cultures? Have you heard about the Rappan Athuk fad? Well come on down to the Dungeoneer's Guild and hire one of our Dungeon Tour Guides. The discerning customer might even ask for Dun to guide them.

Dun
Wood Elf Observant Knowledge Cleric 1 / Arcane Trickster 14
Trickster special spells: Find Familiar, Darkvision (for blind customers), Dispel Magic
Commonly has Detect Magic, Guidance, or Resistance active in addition to the ever present Mage Hand and Bat Familiar

It was fun giving an interactive tour of the Tomb of Annihilation. Although credit also goes to the tourists on that trip.

[LordCdrMilitant]

There was a post on reddit earlier about how min maxing for combat can be kind of meh as combat is just part of the game, and I thought that was very interesting. It got me thinking, what could you optimize for besides combat?

My first thought is the perfect face, get expertise in persuasion and deception, be a changeling or get mask of many faces, some enchantment spells... I'd probably do a whisper bard with 3 levels in great old one warlock, with a sprite familar that can tell me people's emotions.


Any other ideas for what you could optimize towards?

I have settled into a paradigm of playing high CHA characters. I just sort of prattle on, most of the time the GM doesn't call for checks, but I know I can pass them if I need to make them.

I kind of regret putting my expertise in Persuade instead of Arcana for my current character. She's a postdoctoral researcher, and knows a lot of things about both magic and non-magic. I didn't really know how she would be when we started, so I picked Persuade because it's universally useful to me and Arcana doesn't often come up in any games I run or play in.

[kazaryu]

There was a post on reddit earlier about how min maxing for combat can be kind of meh as combat is just part of the game, and I thought that was very interesting. It got me thinking, what could you optimize for besides combat?

My first thought is the perfect face, get expertise in persuasion and deception, be a changeling or get mask of many faces, some enchantment spells... I'd probably do a whisper bard with 3 levels in great old one warlock, with a sprite familar that can tell me people's emotions.


Any other ideas for what you could optimize towards?

optimize for carry weight. Goliath, bear totem barbarian for 6 levels then....idk basically anything from there, i mean i guess druid could be fun, or something that can cast polymorph (that is if your DM lets you use the bear totems carry weight increase in other forms). so like...maybe 3-5 levels of wizard/sorcerer for enlarge then 9-11 levels in moon druid so you can turn into things like a giant elk (19 strr with the effective carry weight of a gargantuan+ creature (so like, 4560 before it starts causing problems)

[Desamir]

In 5th, combat is the only thing that benefits from optimization.

There's little difference between the guy who spends his entire character becoming good at some skill and the guy who just has proficiency when it comes to actual d20+something.

Spell selection is optimization, and that makes a huge difference out of combat.

[LudicSavant]

optimize for carry weight. Goliath, bear totem barbarian for 6 levels then....idk basically anything from there, i mean i guess druid could be fun, or something that can cast polymorph (that is if your DM lets you use the bear totems carry weight increase in other forms). so like...maybe 3-5 levels of wizard/sorcerer for enlarge then 9-11 levels in moon druid so you can turn into things like a giant elk (19 strr with the effective carry weight of a gargantuan+ creature (so like, 4560 before it starts causing problems)

4000 pounds is a lot less than you might think. For example, this small boulder is apparently 10,000 pounds:
https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BBZnO1o.img?h=450&w=799&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f

The trouble is that D&D 5e has terrible scaling for lift/push/drag weights. A guy with 20 Strength and the Bear Totem feature still can't drag as much as real life strongmen can. And Gargantuan creatures struggle to move things a teeny tiny fraction of their own size. You basically just have to ignore the weight rules entirely for big creatures to be able to do big creature things.

When judging how heavy stuff is, remember that something twice as big isn't twice as heavy, it's 8 times as heavy.

[kazaryu]

4000 pounds is a lot less than you might think.
so?


The trouble is that D&D 5e has terrible scaling for lift/push/drag weights. A guy with 20 Strength and the Bear Totem feature still can't drag as much as real life strongmen can.
you mind linking some proof of someone dragging something more than 1200lbs?


And Gargantuan creatures struggle to move things a teeny tiny fraction of their own size. You basically just have to ignore the weight rules entirely for big creatures to be able to do big creature things.

When judging how heavy stuff is, remember that something twice as big isn't twice as heavy, it's 8 times as heavy.

im....not sure what your point is.

like, you're right that carry weight scaling in 5e is unrealistic when it comes to size category changes. for sure.

however, from what im seeing, the world record for lifting (i.e. the clean and jerk/snatch, which from what i can see is essentially 'lift overhead') is ~582 lbs...which is right on the money for the 600lb lift that a regular dude can do with just 20 str. throw in bear aspect and they can lift overhead up to 1200 (twice the current olympic world record). and make them a goliath and they can do 2400...~4x the current Olympic record. (or if you wanna have things stack additively instead it'd be 1800lbs ~3x)

[LudicSavant]

you mind linking some proof of someone dragging something more than 1200lbs?

You could have found a hundred examples on Google in less time than you took to type this.

Anyways, here's one random example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lujbMZ_VJ-E

[stoutstien]

You could optimize for about anything. at the same time, truly optimizing for something and 5th edition has sharp diminishing returns.
I personally have an affinity for optimizing for party survival and mitigation. it's mostly pointless because it's pretty much assume the party will succeed one way or the other eventually but I find it more satisfactory to counterspell a fireball then casting one.

[stoutstien]

You could have found a hundred examples on Google in less time than you took to type this.

Anyways, here's one random example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lujbMZ_VJ-E

Is that a video of Kevin fast I'm on my phone so I can't tell !?

[kazaryu]

You could have found a hundred examples on Google in less time than you took to type this.

Anyways, here's one random example:


right.....so when i asked for an example of someone dragging something heavier than 1200lbs...you linked an example of someone....not dragging something heavier than 1200lbs?

like, don't get me wrong, that is very very impressive. i certainly wouldn't be able to do it. but the entire point of wheels is to reduce the effective weight of the the thing being pulled. in other words, the actual force they were opposing was the friction preventing the tires from spinning, not the friction on the ground caused by the weight of the object. now, if the brakes were pressed in and they were literally dragging the fire trucks...that would be what im asking for. that would be a comparable example to what the current 5e rules are.

of course, this does start getting into something that the rules ignore, likely for simplicity. friction. to say 'you can drag 1200 lbs' isn't nuanced enough to really be comparable to irl. if the object in question is in a low friction enviroment (say...on ice) and the person dragging it isn't, then ALOT of people would be able to drag a 1200lb object.

[LudicSavant]

you linked an example of someone....not dragging something heavier than 1200lbs? They're dragging nearly 200,000 pounds.


if the brakes were pressed in

Here's a video of a guy pushing a car with the brakes pressed in (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHNRX4Zph4w). The car weighs much more than 1200 pounds.

[KorvinStarmast]

Builds that optimize for things besides combat? Every Life Domain Cleric I've played.

[Sception]

There was a post on reddit earlier about how min maxing for combat can be kind of meh as combat is just part of the game, and I thought that was very interesting. It got me thinking, what could you optimize for besides combat?

Combat and non-combat character resources don't tend to conflict really, so you usually can and should do both. Skills, for instance, can be combat relevant - particularly athletics, acrobatics, and perception - but mostly function as non-combat resources largely segregated from a character's combat features. Even utility spells are somewhat insulated from combat casting resources thanks to the ritual casting system.

Apart from skills, there's not really too much /to/ optimize for non-combat in 5e, as the non-combat systems are deliberately minimal so as not to have mechanics interfere overmuch with roleplaying during non-combat game segments.


My main theory and advice for considering a character's non-combat abilities are to pick out one or more particular non-combat party roles that your character can contribute to. Example roles:

- scout/infiltrator - stealth, perception, darkvision, athletics, acrobatics, maybe pass without trace, spider climb / fly, etc
- lockpick / trap fixer - investigation, thieves tools, expertise in both if possible
- lookout - perception, darkvision, maybe investigation or insight, maybe see invisibility, detect magic, divine sense, etc
- face - charisma skills, languages, insight, maybe disguise kit, maybe charm & disguise spells, maybe handle animal
- strongman - athletics, pure strength tests, maybe intimidation
- healer - medicine, healing spells & abilities
- loremaster - knowledge skills, languages, sage background research ability
- tracker / hunter / gatherer - survival, nature, maybe stealth & perception, maybe handle animal
- utility caster - ritual caster, water breathing, detect magic, identify, tiny hut, divination spells, at higher levels group teleport

etc.

Some of these have a fair bit of overlap. Some are more resource intensive than others. Most characters can reasonably cover one of more of these out of race, class, and background skill & tool proficiencies alone. Some utility spellcasting can help with several of these rolls, but a dedicated full caster can often provide the relevant spells to help out other party specialists in their non-combat roles.

As long as your character can do one or more of these, and your party has at least most of them covered, you should be fine for non-combat ability. "Optimizing" is more often a matter of covering more roles with a single character, and making sure more roles are covered by at least someone in the group, rather than covering one role extra super well.

[Jamesps]

By 11th level a rogue/scout can have reliable talent and every skill in the game, further having expertise in at least 6.

That'd be my optimum skill monkey. I prefer a character that auto-succeeds most skill checks to a character that once in a while manages an amazing feat, though this character could do both.

[kazaryu]

They're dragging nearly 200,000 pounds.

well, first off, according to a quick google search, a fire truck weighs between 36 and 60 thousand pounds. so unless they're pulling 3+fire trucks simultaneously? no they're not. again, i could be wrong, but i don't see where your 200k is coming from. That being said. again. so what? they're not dragging 200klbs. they're rolling it. idk what the actual frictional force they're overcoming is, but i guarantee its significantly less than 200,000lbs.



Here's a video of a guy pushing a car with the brakes pressed in (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHNRX4Zph4w). The car weighs much more than 1200 pounds.
much more? how much more? 700lbs more? around there from the look of things, i don't actually know what type of car but based on similar looking vehicle it looks like it'd weight <2200 lbs. that said.
the breaks actually aren't pressed in, the parking break is. which is significantly weaker. still an impressive feat. but by no means proof of the ruleset being wildly inaccurate for normal human scaling. How much frictional force is he opposing? both of them really.


and you seem to be ignoring the rest of my post....i've already pointed out that the current rules don't take into account friction. or any factor besides str and weight. on a frictionless surface, anyone could pull a firetruck (even with the tires not spinning) so long as they could somehow get some grip. meanwhile on a high friction surface (asphalt?) people would struggle to drag a few hundreds of pounds (although it'd be doable). But that complexity is left to the DM to decide.

another thing i thought of, its entirely possible that you and i simply have different ideas of the scenario. when i look at the rules and they say push/pull weight. i interpret that as 'you're pulling something as it slides over another surface'. and would therefore adjust the practicality based on teh situation. i.e. 'i don't care how strong you are, you're not pulling that 5,000lb box through a dense jungle without first removing some obstacles.' or 'ok, you're gonna use some makeshift wheels to make it easier to pull that 20,000lb chest? sure, that sounds reasonable.'

[Misterwhisper]

Reliable talent is amazing for this kind of thing.

Thieves gloves on a level 11 rogue is pretty much take anything you want.

The issue is that there is nothing special you can do with skills because they never bothered to make a chart for dc examples.

[LudicSavant]

well, first off, according to a quick google search, a fire truck weighs between 36 and 60 thousand pounds. so unless they're pulling 3+fire trucks simultaneously? no they're not.
What are you even trying to pull here? They literally are pulling 3 fire trucks simultaneously.

[kazaryu]

What are you even trying to pull here? They literally are pulling 3 fire trucks simultaneously.

im nto trying to 'pull' anything. i just didn't notice the captions on my first watch through. fair enough. doesn't change the fact that they're not literally dragging 200klbs which was my initial point. they're rolling them.

that being said, we're veering way off topic, so imma stop replying to this chain.


getting back on topic: the real trick is, once you have a stupid high carry weight....what do you do with it. i mean, its fun to have it but like....so what?

some options: just soooo many caltrops/ballbearings? i mean, obviously it wouldn't help out in a standard pitched fight. but if you have the ability to prepare a battle field....so like, at lvl 6, you cna reasonalby have a carry weight of like...1100? thats enough to coat a 30x30 square area, (150'x150) which is quite large.

hmmm, i mean, obviously you could carry lots of rope, chains, and manacles.....

i mean....in a heist type scenario you could potentially just...carry a chest...probably not a safe, but just a regular ole chest? probably, unless its literally filled with gold. but then you could also carry the gold.
what im getting at is, i can't actually think of a practical thing you could do with such a high carry weight. at least not for combat. obviously you could carry pretty much all the gear your party might need depending on how crazy the DM lets you go with space). but :shrug: i mean, you're still a lvl 6 barbarian, you're not useless lol.

[TigerT20]

im nto trying to 'pull' anything. i just didn't notice the captions on my first watch through. fair enough. doesn't change the fact that they're not literally dragging 200klbs which was my initial point. they're rolling them.

that being said, we're veering way off topic, so imma stop replying to this chain.


getting back on topic: the real trick is, once you have a stupid high carry weight....what do you do with it. i mean, its fun to have it but like....so what?

some options: just soooo many caltrops/ballbearings? i mean, obviously it wouldn't help out in a standard pitched fight. but if you have the ability to prepare a battle field....so like, at lvl 6, you cna reasonalby have a carry weight of like...1100? thats enough to coat a 30x30 square area, (150'x150) which is quite large.

hmmm, i mean, obviously you could carry lots of rope, chains, and manacles.....

i mean....in a heist type scenario you could potentially just...carry a chest...probably not a safe, but just a regular ole chest? probably, unless its literally filled with gold. but then you could also carry the gold.
what im getting at is, i can't actually think of a practical thing you could do with such a high carry weight. at least not for combat. obviously you could carry pretty much all the gear your party might need depending on how crazy the DM lets you go with space). but :shrug: i mean, you're still a lvl 6 barbarian, you're not useless lol.

The entire point of the thread is optimizing for things that AREN'T combat. Why does it HAVE to be useful in combat?

[AvatarVecna]

Optimization is mostly focused on combat because most mechanics are focused on combat. There's not exactly a super-robust ruleset for social combat - there's spells you can cast, and there's checks/opposed checks you can make, but how exactly social encounters work mechanically is "however your DM decides it works, because there's no baseline to work from". Even 3.5 was better about this particular point, having solid benefits for what a particular Bluff, Diplomacy, or Intimidate check would do (they were mostly broken BS, but they were relatively well-defined broken BS compared to what 5e gives us).

Changeling is probably going to be the race that competes with VHuman for a face build. Cha +2, built-in advantage for disguising, two face skills, a couple extra languages, and a tool prof associated with one of your covers...yeah that can compete with VHuman stuff.

Bard is the best face hands down - expertise, a social-focused spell list, the potential down the line to boost their own skill checks with bardic inspiration...yeah bard is best face. Warlock is also a solid contender, partially for good skill access, and partially for short-rest-recharge on their spells, making each spell known go a lot further each day if abused.

One face mechanic I want to bring up is the Diplomat feat from UA: Skill Feats. It gives prof/exp on Persuasion, +1 Cha, and a very interesting ability for social encounters. This is an at-will ability that takes one minute of conversation to initiate. It's a nonmagical way of inducing the charmed condition, which means it can't be detected/dispelled via magic of that ilk. It's an opposed check instead of a saving throw, so elves/half-elves/etc don't get adv on save vs charmed (since it's not a save). It has a theoretically indefinite duration, although you have to remain nearby. And unlike the Friends spell, there's no clause about how they realize they were charmed when it ends.

[sithlordnergal]

I mean, I have an AL character that's optimized for movement speed. They're a Tabaxi Monk/Fighter/Barbarian with Mobile, and will top off at around 70 base movement speed. I went three levels of Fighter and grabbed Longstrider as one of my spells, giving me an extra 10 speed to bring it up to 80. Mix that with Tabaxi Speed, my Boots of Speed, and my Eagle Whistle, and I have a fly speed that's either 480 feet or 640 feet, depending on how you let Speed boosts stack.

The best part is casting Longstrider is an action, activating the Boots of speed is a Bonus Action, and using Tabaxi Speed and the Eagle Whistle take no actions, so that can all come online in a single round. Then the next round you can Dash three times thanks to your normal Dash, Action Surge, and the Monk's Bonus Action Dash, letting you move either 1920 feet in one round, or 2560 feet in a round.

Of course the very height of my build is getting someone to cast Haste on me, or having a Potion of Speed. Which either boosts my speed to 640 or 1,280 feet, again depending on how you rule Speed bonuses stack, and I get one extra Dash on top of it all. Letting me max out at either 3,200 feet every other round, or 6,400 feet every other round. I'm basically running 363.4 MPH or 726.8 MPH.

Is this optimization at all useful? Hell no, its only useful if I need to chase someone down. Is it ridiculous, funny, and entertaining? Yes. Yes it is. I speed run dungeons with that character...and I mean literally speed run. To get back to OP's point though, as you can see you can optimize just about anything and everything.

[kazaryu]

The entire point of the thread is optimizing for things that AREN'T combat. Why does it HAVE to be useful in combat?

it doesnt', but since combat is a big part of dnd, being useful in combat helps to not have a bad time.



Bard is the best face hands down - expertise, a social-focused spell list, the potential down the line to boost their own skill checks with bardic inspiration...yeah bard is best face. Warlock is also a solid contender, partially for good skill access, and partially for short-rest-recharge on their spells, making each spell known go a lot further each day if abused.

i mean, its hardly that cut and dried.

rogues get expertise at levels 1 and 6. then by level 10 have reliable talent. so a cha focused rogue, by lvl 10 the lowest they can roll on a social check is a 23, and the highest is a 33. at lvl 8 they cna pick up enhance ability (arcane trickster), so they can get advantage on any cha based checks. Assassin rogues can get a nearly foolproof disguise.

Sorcerers don't have as much skill versatility, but they can use social spells subtly. specifically they can cast suggestion without having to go through nay of the rigmarole that a bard would need to.

Not saying either of the options are objectively superior. But rogue at least is easily on par. The biggest difference is that the bard doesn't need to invest in a non-primary ability score to do that. but then...a rogue also doesn't need a 20 dex so :shrug:

[stoutstien]

it doesnt', but since combat is a big part of dnd, being useful in combat helps to not have a bad time.


i mean, its hardly that cut and dried.

rogues get expertise at levels 1 and 6. then by level 10 have reliable talent. so a cha focused rogue, by lvl 10 the lowest they can roll on a social check is a 23, and the highest is a 33. at lvl 8 they cna pick up enhance ability (arcane trickster), so they can get advantage on any cha based checks. Assassin rogues can get a nearly foolproof disguise.

Sorcerers don't have as much skill versatility, but they can use social spells subtly. specifically they can cast suggestion without having to go through nay of the rigmarole that a bard would need to.

Not saying either of the options are objectively superior. But rogue at least is easily on par. The biggest difference is that the bard doesn't need to invest in a non-primary ability score to do that. but then...a rogue also doesn't need a 20 dex so :shrug:

You forgot about the glibness spell for bards and to a lesser extent warlocks.

[sithlordnergal]

You forgot about the glibness spell for bards and to a lesser extent warlocks.

Eh, Glibness is nice...but its an 8th level spell and it only lasts an hour. Having a permanent +10 to all skill checks all the time is better than having a +15 for an hour on Charisma checks. Over the course of an entire adventuring day, you'll get more use out of that +10 then you will Glibness.

Also, another point in favor of Rogues is the Swashbuckler. You have a way to Charm anyone you speak to that doesn't have a limit on how many times you use it, nor does it state that creatures are aware you tried to/successfully charmed them. So you can sneakily try to charm anyone you can talk to and force them to make an Insight check vs Persuasion check. Even if you only have a 14 Charisma, but you have Expertise, that's a DC 20 Insight check at the minimum. Snag one level of Great Old One Warlock and now you can speak to anyone and everyone if they speak a language.

Even if they succeed on the check, you can do it again immediately, and there is an argument to be made that they won't know you tried to charm them either way because Charm Person and Charm Monster felt the need to call out that the creatures know that they were charmed by you when you cast them.

[Ganders]

There are lots of things to optimize for. Optimizing for saving throws can be quite good for survivability. I like collections... for instance optimizing to have fewer abilities, so your character sheet is shorter, or optimizing to know every cantrip in the book by level 10. Sometimes I actually optimize to roll fewer dice, which is more a player issue than a character issue. But 'fewer dice' can be interpreted in a number of ways, each calling for different builds.

Rolling fewer dice can mean punching (1 damage) instead of using a weapon (1 die of damage).
Or it can mean using Magic Missile and True Strike so you never have to roll to hit, or just rarely miss.
Or it can mean spells with saving throws so the DM rolls instead of you the player.
Or it can mean lining up all your spells, hit points, weapons, etc. so they all use d6s, and although you use your d6 often, you never need your d8 or d4.
Or it can mean favoring feats that give you +X instead of advantage (Resilient con instead of Warcaster).
Or it can mean getting +9 to your concentration saves so there's (usually) no need to roll, since even rolling a 1 would be a success.

[Man_Over_Game]

In 5th, combat is the only thing that benefits from optimization.

There's little difference between the guy who spends his entire character becoming good at some skill and the guy who just has proficiency when it comes to actual d20+something.

Agreed. Either your DM will account for your Expertise in Animal Handling, or he does something else.

Since gating progress through a feature/power the players don't have is considered badwrong DMing, the player's non-combat features generally don't contribute to success.

They DO contribute to the story elements to make it more epic, which I'd debate is a much better form of contribution than doing well in combat, but the issue there is that not all classes gain features to contribute much in the non-combat scene (Fighters, Barbarians) while every class can fight.

Combat, while probably the least-meaningful part of DnD, is also the most consistent and balanced part of the game. You can gate success/failure on combat, since everyone can do it just fine, except that means that you're encouraged to do less unorthodox solutions and be more boring.

So it's a Catch-22.

[Xetheral]

One can effectively optimize for helping other characters' checks. Mastermind Rogue (for bonus action Aid Another), Guidance, and the Historian UA feat can all be applied to a single check, at will, in a single round. That's Advantage with an extra 1d4+(your) proficiency bonus.

(Bardic Inspiration can be added too, but requires an extra round of prep and is a limited resource.)

[kazaryu]

You forgot about the glibness spell for bards and to a lesser extent warlocks.

no i didn't. if you read my post, my points were *all* at or below level 10, making glibness moot.

however, if you wanted to consider lvl 8 spells. ok, now the rogue has a +15 (minimum of 25) to basically any social skill check (i mean, if we're assuming its a face, it gonna have prof/expertise in social skills so...). of course, the DM could just raise DC's, but that literally defeats the purpose of expertise/reliable talent. and realistically a rogue+enhance charisma...is pretty much teh same overall bonus as a minimum 15. so its not actually that OP. Now, of course glibness does allow the bard to lie to like, angels and ****. But RaW doesn't defeat the far, far more common option of....zone of truth. so again, rogue isn't objectively superior, but easily on par.

what glibness does, is allow someone thats not fully optimized for social challenges to do very well in social challenges temporarily. its obviously useful on optimized faces as well, obviously. but thats not where its at its strongest.

[sithlordnergal]

In 5th, combat is the only thing that benefits from optimization.

There's little difference between the guy who spends his entire character becoming good at some skill and the guy who just has proficiency when it comes to actual d20+something.

I would disagree with that. Take a look at my post on the first page near the bottom of the thread. I optimized movement speed, and there are no rolls that can change what I have. I also have a character that optimized their AC. They just need +3 Plate Armor and they'll be fully optimized. Anything that wants to hit them right now needs to roll a 29 or higher, and that's before I add things like Shield and Shield of Faith to make it a 36 or higher.

[Man_Over_Game]

I would disagree with that. Take a look at my post on the first page near the bottom of the thread. I optimized movement speed, and there are no rolls that can change what I have. I also have a character that optimized their AC. They just need +3 Plate Armor and they'll be fully optimized. Anything that wants to hit them right now needs to roll a 29 or higher, and that's before I add things like Shield and Shield of Faith to make it a 36 or higher.

From what I read, you supported what he said with further evidence. He said "combat" not "damage".

[sithlordnergal]

From what I read, you supported what he said with further evidence. He said "combat" not "damage".

Ehh, I don't really consider movement speed to be a combat focused thing. Its certainly used in combat, and you need it in combat, but unless you're trying to escape the long range of a Longbow, there's really no use for having a 400+ movement speed.

[Man_Over_Game]

Ehh, I don't really consider movement speed to be a combat focused thing. Its certainly used in combat, and you need it in combat, but unless you're trying to escape the long range of a Longbow, there's really no use for having a 400+ movement speed.

I'd debate that speed doesn't have much value out of combat either. Any time movement is considered, an Athletics check is generally used, and movement speed isn't usually relevant in the travel rules.

[ftafp]

What about burrow speed? Most speed is combat focused, but if you're going into the underdark or through a mountain pass one character having a burrow speed can change the entire travel plan, or make it possible to burrow into people's basements or even through their walls.

Arguably, the same could be said for fly speed but in those cases there's rarely a situation where fly speed needs to be optimized. Burrow speed on the other hand is pretty much limited to 200 feet a minute for a medium sized tunnel unless you start optimizing

[HappyDaze]

There's (non-Variant) Human Fighter (Champion) for optimizing ease of play.

[Yakmala]

Some of the non-combat optimized builds I've done.

Low level / AL Tier 1 Party Survival Build: Variant Human Rogue Thief. 16 Dexterity and Charisma. Pick up Healer feat at Level 1 and Inspiring Leader at Level 4. With the Thief's Fast Hands ability, you can now use your Healer's Kits as a Bonus Action to get party members back on their feet while still getting off your sneak attack (or a second use of the Healer's Kit) with your action. And with your 16 Charisma at Inspiring Leader, everyone in the party has 7 temporary HP. I played him as a Combat Medic of Ilmater and rarely had any party deaths.

Low Level Tank Build: Variant Human with Heavy Armor Master feat. 1 Level of Fighter with Defense Fighting Style and 1 Level of Forge Cleric. At level 2, you can have a 22 AC with stock gear (AC 18 from chain and shield, +1 from Defense fighting style, +1 from Blessing of the Forge, +2 from Shield of Faith) and any non-magical melee hits get their damage reduced by 3. Not quite as god-like at later levels, but really fun at the start.

Magic Resist Build: Yuan-Ti Pureblood Oath of the Ancients Paladin. By Level 8, assuming you put your first two ASI's into Charisma, you have +5 to all Saving Throws from your Aura of Protection, Advantage on your saves against spells and other magical effects and resistance to spell damage from your Aura of Warding. Great party protection and I could casually walk up to enemy casters with little fear. Also great for setting off wards and magical traps.

I've been playing a Druid for months and need something simple this time build: Half Orc Champion or Champion/Barbarian with a Great Axe and HWM. I tried this once. It was very relaxing and let me concentrate on roleplaying.

[Xetheral]

I'd debate that speed doesn't have much value out of combat either. Any time movement is considered, an Athletics check is generally used, and movement speed isn't usually relevant in the travel rules.

I disagree. Having a speed advantage over the opposition often allows one to control the location of (or entirely avoid) an encounter. (Admittedly this is related to combat, but as it happens prior to initiative being rolled it's still an example of how speed is useful outside or combat.)

[Nagog]

Here's a non-combat optimization option that's a lot of fun: Jump distance.
Note: This requires a lenient or unknowing DM to handwaive the rule about jumping costing movement. Rule of Cool will definitely be on your side for this one:

Firstly, be a Githyanki. Their racial access to the Jump spell is very important.
Secondly: get 2 levels of Monk.
Thirdly: Max out strength to 20.
That's pretty much it. And now: Execution.

Enemy longbow archers are firing at the party from 120 feet away, their maximum distance. Their disadvantage due to range is keeping them at a minor inconvenience for now, but they'll soon be a problem. Not for you though.
First, you spend a round casting Jump on yourself. Your jump distance just went from 20 to 60. Don't use it just yet.
When your next turn comes around, start by activating Step of the Wind. You're dashing yes, but more importantly, your jump distance just went from 60 to 120 feet.
Now, you jump. A ten foot running head start gets you to the proper speed, and within one round you jump all the way to where these enemy longbowmen are no doubt soiling their pants as you pretty much fly at them. As you pass above their pretty little heads (thanks to the 10 foot head start), you still have your action to let loose on them as you sail majestically overhead.