Rogue Echo Knight

[mistwell]

I am looking to optimize a Rogue / Echo Knight.

First I am wondering how to use my echo for sneak attacks.

Let's say I am playing a Lightfoot Halfling Rogue, and our Rogue hides behind his medium sized fighter buddy successfully.

His Echo is next to a foe out in the open.

Can the Rogue attack through his Echo at advantage, thus gaining sneak attack against the foe?

Let's say our Rogue becomes an Arcane Trickster and gets the Find Familiar spell. Can the rogue have a Spider Familiar (tiny size) craw under a door or through a gap in a window, and then "see" through the familiars eyes to summon an Echo on other side of the door/window to swap places with the Echo as a means of teleporting behind barriers?

Could a Rogue Inquisitive use their Insightful Fighting ability to gain sneak attack from their Echo? Could a Rogue Swashbuckler use Rakish Audacity to do the same thing through their Echo?

What synergies and interesting tactics might be available for a Rogue/ Echo Knight and how might you build one? What levels would you take in each?

[mistwell]

Huh, 70 views and no comments. OK? Nobody has any thoughts?

[thoroughlyS]

I think the main reason you're not getting too many responses is because the Echo Knight is so new. On top of that, most of the questions you ask should really be answered by your DM. All I can really do is tell you how I would rule things at my table.


First I am wondering how to use my echo for sneak attacks.
You didn't ask this directly, but we could also look at the case for the Echo granting sneak attack by itself. There are a few other ways to generate sneak attack for yourself (most of which you mention later), such as insightful fighting, rakish audacity, or picking up find familiar. Considering that getting an Echo requires investing at least three levels into fighter, and takes as much time to set up as insightful fighting, I would allow it to count as an "enemy" for the purpose of sneak attack. This reduces some of the utility of the manifest echo feature because it requires you to stay near your Echo at all times.

For the purpose of answering your following questions, I'll assume your DM disagrees with my above reasoning and disallows the Echo granting sneak attack.


Let's say I am playing a Lightfoot Halfling Rogue, and our Rogue hides behind his medium sized fighter buddy successfully.

His Echo is next to a foe out in the open.

Can the Rogue attack through his Echo at advantage, thus gaining sneak attack against the foe?
Hiding grants advantage via the mechanisms of Unseen Attackers and Targets: When a creature can’t see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it. (Player's Handbook p.194) Therefore, you shouldn't gain advantage if you attack through your Echo unless they can't see it either.


Let's say our Rogue becomes an Arcane Trickster and gets the Find Familiar spell. Can the rogue have a Spider Familiar (tiny size) craw under a door or through a gap in a window, and then "see" through the familiars eyes to summon an Echo on other side of the door/window to swap places with the Echo as a means of teleporting behind barriers?
I would allow this assuming you still manifest the Echo within 15 feet of you (not just your familiar). I don't really find this concerning because I as a DM would only put a locked door in the game if I am okay with my players bypassing that lock.


Could a Rogue Inquisitive use their Insightful Fighting ability to gain sneak attack from their Echo?
I assume you're asking if an Echo Knight/Inquisitive would still benefit from insightful fighting if their attack originates from the Echo. I would allow this because it is still one of your attacks.


Could a Rogue Swashbuckler use Rakish Audacity to do the same thing through their Echo?
I assume you're asking if an Echo Knight/Swashbuckler would still benefit from rakish audacity if their Echo is within 5 feet of them. I would still allow them to use sneak attack in this situation.* Even if you didn't I can't really see any situation where this would come up, because you can decide where to position your Echo on your turn (i.e. if it is within 5 feet of you, just move it).

[mistwell]

I think the main reason you're not getting too many responses is because the Echo Knight is so new. On top of that, most of the questions you ask should really be answered by your DM. All I can really do is tell you how I would rule things at my table.


You didn't ask this directly, but we could also look at the case for the Echo granting sneak attack by itself. There are a few other ways to generate sneak attack for yourself (most of which you mention later), such as insightful fighting, rakish audacity, or picking up find familiar. Considering that getting an Echo requires investing at least three levels into fighter, and takes as much time to set up as insightful fighting, I would allow it to count as an "enemy" for the purpose of sneak attack. This reduces some of the utility of the manifest echo feature because it requires you to stay near your Echo at all times.

For the purpose of answering your following questions, I'll assume your DM disagrees with my above reasoning and disallows the Echo granting sneak attack.


Hiding grants advantage via the mechanisms of Unseen Attackers and Targets: When a creature can’t see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it. (Player's Handbook p.194) Therefore, you shouldn't gain advantage if you attack through your Echo unless they can't see it either.

Why? The Echo is not a creature and cannot be targeted as a creature and is not making an attack and is not an attacker. It's YOU who is attacking (the real you), it's just the space you're attacking from changes briefly to the space of the Echo for that attack. And as you are hidden, doesn't that meet the rules requirements?

[iTreeby]

Why? The Echo is not a creature and cannot be targeted as a creature and is not making an attack and is not an attacker. It's YOU who is attacking (the real you), it's just the space you're attacking from changes briefly to the space of the Echo for that attack. And as you are hidden, doesn't that meet the rules requirements?

If you are unseen, and you attack an enemy, you have advantage. Unless something else imposes disadvantage the attack would qualify for sneak attack.

[thoroughlyS]

Why? The Echo is not a creature and cannot be targeted as a creature and is not making an attack and is not an attacker. It's YOU who is attacking (the real you), it's just the space you're attacking from changes briefly to the space of the Echo for that attack. And as you are hidden, doesn't that meet the rules requirements?
Again, this is definitely a question for your DM. In my opinion, the flavor of that feature is that the Echo is hitting the creature, and therefore if the creature can see the Echo they can see the attack coming, ergo no advantage.

[mistwell]

Again, this is definitely a question for your DM. In my opinion, the flavor of that feature is that the Echo is hitting the creature, and therefore if the creature can see the Echo they can see the attack coming, ergo no advantage.

I am still not understanding. How can the Echo hit a creature? It's a This magical, translucent, gray image. It cannot attack. Here is the language of the attack, making it clear the Echo does not make the attack, "When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space." It's just the space your attack originates from, not the Echo making an attack.

[NaughtyTiger]

I am still not understanding. How can the Echo hit a creature? It's a This magical, translucent, gray image. It cannot attack. Here is the language of the attack, making it clear the Echo does not make the attack, "When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space." It's just the space your attack originates from, not the Echo making an attack.

hi, i am your not so friendly orc. if a thing that looks like you or well anything not me, pops up next to me, i certainly would take notice of it.
i will keep it in my line of sight waiting for the shoe to drop....

when you pop into it, i will see the illusion thing that i have been watching the entire time move, and be ready for it.

[iTreeby]

hi, i am your not so friendly orc. if a thing that looks like you or well anything not me, pops up next to me, i certainly would take notice of it.
i will keep it in my line of sight waiting for the shoe to drop....

when you pop into it, i will see the illusion thing that i have been watching the entire time move, and be ready for it.

Support that with rules and your fluff will match crunch.

[NaughtyTiger]

Support that with rules and your fluff will match crunch.

"any attack you make with that action can originate from ... the echo’s space"

I see the echo. The echo is the origin of the attack.

[iTreeby]

"any attack you make with that action can originate from ... the echo’s space"

I see the echo. The echo is the origin of the attack.
Sneak attack doesn't say anything about the origin of the attack, it doesn't say you don't get it if you are seen making it... It says it deals extra damage under certain conditions. If you have advantage, you can sneak attack. If you have an ally within 5 ft of the target, you can sneak attack. The origin of the attack doesn't make it invalid.

[thoroughlyS]

How can the Echo hit a creature? It's a This magical, translucent, gray image. It cannot attack. Here is the language of the attack, making it clear the Echo does not make the attack, "When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space." It's just the space your attack originates from, not the Echo making an attack.
The Echo is more than just an image, it also occupies its space (i.e. can impact the physical world), and is made of dunamis, which is a form of energy that can be made to act directly on a body. I can only see one way that this feature is supposed to work thematically: When you make the attack originate from the Echo's space, you are shaping the dumamis which composes the Echo into the attack. Therefore, if the creature you are attacking can see the Echo, then it is not an unseen attacker and you would not have advantage on your attack roll.

Sneak attack doesn't say anything about the origin of the attack, it doesn't say you don't get it if you are seen making it... It says it deals extra damage under certain conditions. If you have advantage, you can sneak attack. If you have an ally within 5 ft of the target, you can sneak attack. The origin of the attack doesn't make it invalid.
We're not debating whether you get sneak attack, we're debating whether you get advantage at all from being hidden in this circumstance. It is true, you are making the attack, but the attack is not coming from you directly.

For comparison, I have an alternative situation to pose to you both. If you are a cleric, and you cast spiritual weapon, then successfully hide on your next turn, would your spiritual weapon have advantage on the attack? Your target wouldn't see you, but it would still see your spiritual weapon. Why would it be caught off-guard just because it can't see the caster any more?

[Cheesegear]

If you are a cleric, and you cast spiritual weapon, then successfully hide on your next turn, would your spiritual weapon have advantage on the attack? Your target wouldn't see you, but it would still see your spiritual weapon. Why would it be caught off-guard just because it can't see the caster any more?

I was actually going to say 'It sounds like Spiritual Weapon...'

That's the way I've ruled it.

"Whilst in Stealth, I have advantage on attack rolls with my Sp.Weapon, yes?"
No. The attack - or rather, the damage - originates from the object, not from you, the caster. The hostile is guarding against the object. Now, if you were to say, shoot Guiding Bolt, from where you are now, you would have advantage, because the hostile isn't looking in your direction.

"But I'm the one making the attack roll! Not the weapon. I get advantage!"
I'm not saying you don't have advantage. I'm saying the weapon doesn't, even if you're controlling it. I can tell this leads to a fight, with you leaving the table, not me. How do you want to play this out?

"...I guess your way makes sense."

[NaughtyTiger]

Sneak attack doesn't say anything about the origin of the attack, it doesn't say you don't get it if you are seen making it... It says it deals extra damage under certain conditions. If you have advantage, you can sneak attack. If you have an ally within 5 ft of the target, you can sneak attack. The origin of the attack doesn't make it invalid.


this guy was talking about unseen attackers

Can the Rogue attack through his Echo at advantage, thus gaining sneak attack against the foe?

this guy was talking about unseen attackers

If you are unseen, and you attack an enemy, you have advantage. Unless something else imposes disadvantage the attack would qualify for sneak attack.


you haven't shown me that the attacker is not the origin of an attack, as it is for every other remote attack ability in the game.

if you want to talk about sneak attack for the 5ft within an enemy target. actually i might be okay with that... cuz it is a corporeal force that is engaged in attacking the target...
but you can't have it both ways: it is an ally (technically enemy of the target), and not an attacker.

[thoroughlyS]

if you want to talk about sneak attack for the 5ft within an enemy target. actually i might be okay with that... cuz it is a corporeal force that is engaged in attacking the target...
but you can't have it both ways: it is an ally (technically enemy of the target), and not an attacker.
I was actually the one who brought up the idea of it qualifying as "another enemy of the target", not mistwell or iTreeby. I don't want you to misinterpret their own arguments, and I don't want them to think you are misrepresenting their arguments.

Their argument is that the Echo Knight is the attacker, because they are the one deciding to attack, and making the attack roll. Again, this is really all up to the DM.

[NaughtyTiger]

I was actually the one who brought up the idea of it qualifying as "another enemy of the target", not mistwell or iTreeby. I don't want you to misinterpret their own arguments, and I don't want them to think you are misrepresenting their arguments.

i understand (and originally I disagreed with you at the time) but iTreeby brought it up again when he changed the argument from unseen attack with advantage to sneak attack for ally 5ft range

[iTreeby]

i understand (and originally I disagreed with you at the time) but iTreeby brought it up again when he changed the argument from unseen attack with advantage to sneak attack for ally 5ft range

Sneak attack says it works under certain conditions, none of the conditions are invalidated simply by using the Echo. You absolutely can sneak attack with spiritual weapon if you meet the prerequisites for sneak attack. Can you sneak attack with booming blade? Yes, if you meet the conditions for sneak attack. If you meet the conditions for the sneak attack, you get sneak attack.

Using the manifest echo ability doesn't negate advantage or apply disadvantage. An echo is not an ally, it does the things it says it can do...

Here are things the Echo cannot do: hide, generate advantage by being an ally, attack, take any action other than move, communicate, have a turn.

If you are hidden and you make an attack from your echos location, are you saying that you are still hidden? Normally if you attack while hidden, your position becomes revealed but, since you are attacking from some other Location maybe you should make a bunch of "common sense" rulings that make the class arbitrarily stronger. Logically no amount of echo attacks will ever break stealth. While you are at it, buff the ability so it doesn't break invisibility too for some reason.

Or maybe instead of comparing manifest echo to spiritual weapon you should compare Manifest Echo to Invoke Duplicity or Find Familiar (a different ability or spell that also has nothing to do with it).

Or maybe you should not buff or nerf the class and have the abilities do what they say they do.

[NaughtyTiger]

Sneak attack says it works under certain conditions, ... You absolutely can sneak attack with spiritual weapon if you meet the prerequisites for sneak attack. Can you sneak attack with booming blade? Yes, if you meet the conditions for sneak attack. If you meet the conditions for the sneak attack, you get sneak attack.
yes, we agree. if you meet the conditions for sneak attack, you get sneak attack.



Here are things the Echo cannot do: hide, generate advantage by being an ally, attack, take any action other than move [marked for tiger disagrees], communicate, have a turn.

we prolly agree here too.


If you are hidden and you make an attack from your echos location, are you saying that you are still hidden?
good question. to be logically consistent, EK (ew already used those initials) would still be hidden.


Or maybe instead of comparing manifest echo to spiritual weapon you should compare Manifest Echo to Invoke Duplicity or Find Familiar (a different ability or spell that also has nothing to do with it).
i even suggested you do this...
in the case of ID (discussion in another thread right now), i would rule the same way, no advantage for unseen attacker, because the ID is clearly visible.
in the case of Find Familiar, i would rule the same way, no advantage for unseen attacker, because the owl is clearly visible.


Or maybe you should not buff or nerf the class and have the abilities do what they say they do.
whether to nerf or buff is a separate issue related to game balance and table interactions. This is explicitly within DM purview to ensure the right game for the right table.


As a player would it make sense if DM says:

an image of an orc appears next to you. an axe slices at you from the image.
the attack gets advantage because you can't see the attacker
and you are now aware of an orc in the next room.

How is the EK in play? Did you enjoy it? Did it mesh well with other players?

[iTreeby]

As a player would it make sense if DM says:

an image of an orc appears next to you. an axe slices at you from the image.
the attack gets advantage because you can't see the attacker
and you are now aware of an orc in the next room.

How is the EK in play? Did you enjoy it? Did it mesh well with other players?

You can't attack from another room, you can't see your target. So no, it wouldn't make sense if that happened.
You don't see from your echos location (by default). You don't swap places with your echo and make an attack and swap back, if you can't see your target, you have to guess what square they are in and attack with disadvantage. The Echo takes space and is an object so, it can't float through a wall or even open a door so, it should be obvious how it got into the room, unless you manifest it in the room (which you need sight to do) it isn't a streach to say that making an attack breaks stealth (in fact, the rules say it does).

I haven't gotten to play the Echo Knight because the only online game I have access to bans it (and everything else from wildemount except races). They probably ban it because they think it can do a bunch of things it can't actually do (teleport out of grapples, flank by itself, attack from full cover without disadvantage) and think it's too powerful. Or maybe they think the wizard subclasses are broken and don't want to deal with the book at all

[NaughtyTiger]

You can't attack from another room, you can't see your target. So no, it wouldn't make sense if that happened.
You don't see from your echos location (by default). You don't swap places with your echo and make an attack and swap back, if you can't see your target, you have to guess what square they are in and attack with disadvantage. The Echo takes space and is an object so, it can't float through a wall or even open a door so, it should be obvious how it got into the room, unless you manifest it in the room (which you need sight to do)
it isn't a streach to say that making an attack breaks stealth (in fact, the rules say it does).

I haven't gotten to play the Echo Knight because the only online game I have access to bans it (and everything else from wildemount except races). They probably ban it because they think it can do a bunch of things it can't actually do (teleport out of grapples, flank by itself, attack from full cover without disadvantage) and think it's too powerful. Or maybe they think the wizard subclasses are broken and don't want to deal with the book at all

1) Never said it was an Echo Knight. So that invalidates your "it can't happen response"
2) Actually, there are ways to make it happen without sight (off topic). So that invalidates your "it can't happen response"
3) Meat of your answer:

axe slices through an image at you, and you know there is an orc in the next room. You don't hear him or see him, you just know.
But if orc killed someone in the next room, you wouldn't know there was an orc in there.
And that makes sense to you as a player.

4) Echo knight can teleport out of grapples.

[iTreeby]

1) Never said it was an Echo Knight. So that invalidates your "it can't happen response"
2) Actually, there are ways to make it happen without sight (off topic). So that invalidates your "it can't happen response"
3) Meat of your answer:

axe slices through an image at you, and you know there is an orc in the next room. You don't hear him or see him, you just know.
But if orc killed someone in the next room, you wouldn't know there was an orc in there.
And that makes sense to you as a player.

4) Echo knight can teleport out of grapples.

1) you hear something attacking in the next room, it isn't magic, but if you aren't talking about echo knights I guess it isn't relevant?

2) sure if you aren't talking about manifest echo, I'm sure there are all sorts of things that don't matter? If you are talking about manifest echo, yes, sight matters. You can manifest only in squars you see, within 15 feet of you. Any attacks you make from an attack action can originate from the echos space but you still have to see what you are attacking or esle they are unseen

3) you do see or hear when someone makes an attack, it breaks hidden. This has nothing to do with manifest echo, it's just how hidden works.

4) Echo Knights have to spend 15 feet of movement (as a bonus action) to teleport and swap with their echo, how much movement do you have when grappled or restrained? I'll give you a hint, it's less than fifteen.

[Misterwhisper]

Huh, 70 views and no comments. OK? Nobody has any thoughts?

The issue is that it is so badly written few people will bother to play it.

Just about everything in that book is badly written.

More proof they don’t really check products not made in house very closely.

[NaughtyTiger]

1) you hear something attacking in the next room, it isn't magic, but if you aren't talking about echo knights I guess it isn't relevant?

2) sure if you aren't talking about manifest echo, I'm sure there are all sorts of things that don't matter? If you are talking about manifest echo, yes, sight matters. You can manifest only in squars you see, within 15 feet of you. Any attacks you make from an attack action can originate from the echos space but you still have to see what you are attacking or esle they are unseen

3) you do see or hear when someone makes an attack, it breaks hidden. This has nothing to do with manifest echo, it's just how hidden works.

4) Echo Knights have to spend 15 feet of movement (as a bonus action) to teleport and swap with their echo, how much movement do you have when grappled or restrained? I'll give you a hint, it's less than fifteen.

my view is "the origin of the attack is visible so it doesn't qualify as an unseen attacker."
#1-3) i no longer remember why i thought this scenario was related to my point , so i withdraw the scenario.
#4) snap, i totally missed that. good catch.
I was trying to come up with a case where the origin of the attack is visible, but would still qualify as an unseen attacker, and could not. Maybe you can.



More proof they don’t really check products not made in house very closely.
playtesting, what's that?
editing, what's what?

[MustacheManny]

I'm willing to bet according to RAW it's allowed. According to RAI however, maybe not. At the table I would say it depends on the DM. The echo is able to do some wild things thanks to multiclassing (which is exactly why I don't allow multiclassing at my table.) :smallsmile:

[iTreeby]

I'm willing to bet according to RAW it's allowed. According to RAI however, maybe not. At the table I would say it depends on the DM. The echo is able to do some wild things thanks to multiclassing (which is exactly why I don't allow multiclassing at my table.) :smallsmile:

Do you have any examples of wild things it can do?

[MustacheManny]

Do you have any examples of wild things it can do?

https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/fp853a/echo_knight_shenanigans/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share This list lists a few of the more creative ways to use the echo.

[iTreeby]

https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/fp853a/echo_knight_shenanigans/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share This list lists a few of the more creative ways to use the echo.

None of that involves multiclassing.

[Satori01]

Echo Knight + Inquisitive’s Insightful Fighting.

Does Disengage work against this:
When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo's space.

Echo Avatar + Action Surge + Assasinate.
This is a 1000’ range: seek, find, kill.

The Reaction attack, quoted above, can be performed through the Echo Avatar, as can the Teleport.

A druid/ Echo Knight can summon an Echo, while Wildshaped.

A barbarian/ Echo Knight can summon an Echo while raging.

Hunter/Echo Knight ... The Horde Breaker synergies with the Echo are fairly obvious.

Placing an Echo next to a PC with a Sanctuary Spell and an adjacent opponent. Rinse Repeat.

This is 1st glance impressions, some crazy sick combo is surely out there.

[iTreeby]

Echo Knight + Inquisitive’s Insightful Fighting.

Does Disengage work against this:
When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo's space.

Echo Avatar + Action Surge + Assasinate.
This is a 1000’ range: seek, find, kill.

The Reaction attack, quoted above, can be performed through the Echo Avatar, as can the Teleport.

A druid/ Echo Knight can summon an Echo, while Wildshaped.

A barbarian/ Echo Knight can summon an Echo while raging.

Hunter/Echo Knight ... The Horde Breaker synergies with the Echo are fairly obvious.

Placing an Echo next to a PC with a Sanctuary Spell and an adjacent opponent. Rinse Repeat.

This is 1st glance impressions, some crazy sick combo is surely out there.

Well, let's go through this.

Inquisitives insightful fighting works, sure, sneak attack works. It doesn't get you more sneak attack or anything...

Disengage prevents opportunity attacks, echo doesn't affect this.

Echo can't sneak, so probably it can't get a suprise round, yeah, action surge is still good.

Pretty sure echo avatar is slated to be nerfed anyway though but sure, as written, you can teleport to your echo, not sure what you mean about reactions though.

Yes the echo isn't magic and works with wildshape and rage (just like smites and maneuvers, flurry and sneak attack)

Hord breaker is not improved by the echo because you still have to attack a second enemy within 5 ft of the first eneny

Placing an echo next to an ally with sanctuary...? Disengage or take a reaction attack? What is the combo?