Epic NPC wealth

[Biggus]

Does anyone know why epic NPCs get so little equipment value compared to nonepic one? WBL for a level 20 NPC is nearly 30% of a PC's, but by level 40 it's only just over 10%.

[Aracor]

The answer is simple. Those numbers are based more on keeping the appropriate WBL for PCs than any fluff-wise reason why a powerful NPC would be wealthy. Because otherwise the PCs would get wealth even faster after defeating said NPCs.

[legomaster00156]

It is assumed that NPC's are not putting all of their wealth into adventuring gear. Much of their wealth is invested in real estate, traps, hired/created monsters, etc.

[Biggus]

The answer is simple. Those numbers are based more on keeping the appropriate WBL for PCs than any fluff-wise reason why a powerful NPC would be wealthy. Because otherwise the PCs would get wealth even faster after defeating said NPCs.

Can you explain this a bit more? Why would this be more of a problem at epic levels than nonepic?

[Aracor]

Can you explain this a bit more? Why would this be more of a problem at epic levels than nonepic?
Because wealth (like everything else) even for PCs increases slower after epic than non-epic. Because of that, a comparable progression of wealth from pre-epic results in PCs going high above WBL pretty quickly, which therefore increases their power.

Even in non-epic, too many humanoid enemies at NPC WBL quickly results in characters going above WBL. In epic, that would end up being exacerbated.

[RNightstalker]

Think of it like Zelda or another similar game: not every monster you kill drops loot.

[Aracor]

True, but a human-type fighter at high levels without loot is basically a one-hit chump. Yes, you can seed in outsiders, animals, and other things to help rectify it, but if the campaign calls for primarily human opponents, it gets tricky balancing wealth.

[Biggus]

Because wealth (like everything else) even for PCs increases slower after epic than non-epic. Because of that, a comparable progression of wealth from pre-epic results in PCs going high above WBL pretty quickly, which therefore increases their power.

Even in non-epic, too many humanoid enemies at NPC WBL quickly results in characters going above WBL. In epic, that would end up being exacerbated.

For PCs, WBL increases by a little under 30% from level 20 to 21, reducing gradually to a just over 10% increase from level 39 to 40. NPCs on the other hand immediately go from increasing at nearly 30% per level pre-epic to increasing only 10% per level from level 21 onwards, meaning that they rapidly fall far behind PCs.

It seems to me that if NPCs' wealth decreased in line with PCs', it would keep PCs' acquisition of wealth in proportion to how it is pre-epic. I know maths can often be counter-intuitive though so I wouldn't be surprised if I'm wrong about this...

Edit: I think I might have worked it out, at least partly.

PCs can earn XP from fighting enemies whose individual challenge rating it up to 7 below their level. This means that at low-epic levels, PCs will often be fighting opponents whose wealth is still calculated on the nonepic scale; it's not until level 28 that PCs can no longer earn XP from fighting nonepic opponents. So this means that PC wealth will not immediately start increasing by 10% per level if NPCs and monsters do from CR21. The PC WBL increase from level 28 to 29 has already dropped to just over 15%, so it's not so far out of synch by that point.

[Zarrgon]

I'd just like to point out that Wealth By Level is NOT the rule everyone thinks it is.

The "General Consensus Houserule" is something like: "WBL is the Official Hard limit to the amount of Wealth any character can have."

So, buy this Rule Interpretation if a Character has a WBL Limit of 1,000 gold, and they have 1,000 gold coins they cannot even pick up a single copper coin(as that would put them over the limit).

Is that silly? Yes it is. And the rules never say that: It is an Interpretation. People read the rules, and "see" things that are not typed on the page.

To put it simply: WBL Only is a rule for character Creation. Exactly one second after you have finished creating a character you can give that character a trillion gold coins or anything else you want.

[RNightstalker]

True, but a human-type fighter at high levels without loot is basically a one-hit chump. Yes, you can seed in outsiders, animals, and other things to help rectify it, but if the campaign calls for primarily human opponents, it gets tricky balancing wealth.

Don't confuse having loot to dropping it.


I'd just like to point out that Wealth By Level is NOT the rule everyone thinks it is.

The "General Consensus Houserule" is something like: "WBL is the Official Hard limit to the amount of Wealth any character can have."

So, buy this Rule Interpretation if a Character has a WBL Limit of 1,000 gold, and they have 1,000 gold coins they cannot even pick up a single copper coin(as that would put them over the limit).

Is that silly? Yes it is. And the rules never say that: It is an Interpretation. People read the rules, and "see" things that are not typed on the page.

To put it simply: WBL Only is a rule for character Creation. Exactly one second after you have finished creating a character you can give that character a trillion gold coins or anything else you want.

WBL was actually intended as a guide for DM's to make sure characters aren't too far ahead of the curve. It's based on average loot for average encounters.

[Zarrgon]

WBL was actually intended as a guide for DM's to make sure characters aren't too far ahead of the curve. It's based on average loot for average encounters.

Yes you can interpret the rules that way and make it a houserule for your game....but it is not what the rules say.

[RNightstalker]

Yes you can interpret the rules that way and make it a houserule for your game....but it is not what the rules say.

I was just summarizing the DMG. If you'd like to debate that further, feel free to PM me.

Back to OP, I honestly think the designers did a disservice to the game by not addressing epic levels more than the 3.5 update...

[Kayblis]

Yes you can interpret the rules that way and make it a houserule for your game....but it is not what the rules say.

Read your DMG. Page 135.

"One of the ways you can keep measurable controlon PC power is by strictly monitoring their wealth, including their magic items. The table is based on average treasures found in average encounters compared to EXP gain. Using that information, you can determine how much wealth a character should have based on level. This is the assumed wealth value for balancing baseline campaigns for D&D."

Not an exact quote, I don't have a copyable PDF version, but all the important terms are there. Stop calling actual rules "houserules" just because you disagree with them.

[Biggus]

I'd just like to point out that Wealth By Level is NOT the rule everyone thinks it is.

The "General Consensus Houserule" is something like: "WBL is the Official Hard limit to the amount of Wealth any character can have."

So, buy this Rule Interpretation if a Character has a WBL Limit of 1,000 gold, and they have 1,000 gold coins they cannot even pick up a single copper coin(as that would put them over the limit).


I have literally never heard of anyone interpreting WBL that way before.


Yes you can interpret the rules that way and make it a houserule for your game....but it is not what the rules say.

Incorrect, the DMG says almost exactly what RNightstalker said (p.135):


One of the ways in which you can maintain measurable control on PC power is by strictly monitoring their wealth, including their magic items. Table 5-1: Character Wealth By Level is based on average treasures found in average encounters compared with the experience points earned in those encounters. Using that information, you can determine how much wealth a character should have based on her level.

Edit: ninja'd

[Zarrgon]

I have literally never heard of anyone interpreting WBL that way before.


I know, I'm the Odd Guy Out. It's OK, I can live with it.


Read your DMG. Page 135.

"One of the ways you can keep measurable controlon PC power is by strictly monitoring their wealth, including their magic items. The table is based on average treasures found in average encounters compared to EXP gain. Using that information, you can determine how much wealth a character should have based on level. This is the assumed wealth value for balancing baseline campaigns for D&D."

Not an exact quote, I don't have a copyable PDF version, but all the important terms are there. Stop calling actual rules "houserules" just because you disagree with them.

OK, but look at your quote. Do you see a super hard absolute rule there? Do you see anything that is definitive or final or concrete?

Just looking at the words it is a TON of conditional vague words.

I know so many people see "This is the ONE AND ONLY way to run an OFFICIAL By-the-Rules game of D&D", but I'm just pointing out that the text Never Says That.

[RNightstalker]

To put it simply: WBL Only is a rule for character Creation. Exactly one second after you have finished creating a character you can give that character a trillion gold coins or anything else you want.


I know so many people see "This is the ONE AND ONLY way to run an OFFICIAL By-the-Rules game of D&D", but I'm just pointing out that the text Never Says That.

You're contradicting yourself Zarrgon. Can we lay off the caps and bold italics and get back to the OP?

Speaking of OP, not everything is formulaic. The WBL table itself doesn't follow a consistent pattern.

[Zarrgon]

The WBL table itself doesn't follow a consistent pattern.

Just note the WBL chart is for character creation only. Once a character is created anything can happen.

Note, that as all the text says, it's all a guide, suggestion, helpful hit, etc.

And note, as the DMG says, when the DM makes a character or encounter they are free to make whatever they wish.

[StevenC21]

Err... Nobody ever said it's illegal to exceed WBL, Zarrgon... Just that it's generally considered something undesirable and thus to be avoided.

[RNightstalker]

Just note the WBL chart is for character creation only. Once a character is created anything can happen.

Note, that as all the text says, it's all a guide, suggestion, helpful hit, etc.

And note, as the DMG says, when the DM makes a character or encounter they are free to make whatever they wish.

So which is it? Is it just for character creation, or is it a guide, suggestion, helpful hint, etc?