Best Rogue Subclass Paired With Battlemaster?

[KOLE]

I'm working on a build intending to capitalize on the Riposte maneuver with Rogue for double sneak attack, as well as Precision attack for those sweet sweet sharpshooter shots. I know people rag on Assassin, but with a cooperative party I've seen some great things with their Assassinate ability. Swashbuckler is great, of course, but I'm planning on spending more time at range with this character than up close. Looking for synergy between the two classes, it's really hard to ignore the idea of action surging during a surprise round to get two crossbow crits. Any suggestions or combos I'm missing? Probably just going 3-4 levels of Battlemaster; I'm not convinced Extra Attack is worth Sneak Attack progression stalling, but I haven't run all the numbers yet.

[stoutstien]

There's nothing wrong with the assassin rogue/ battlemaster fighter. If anything it's very thematic. I would recommend against sharpshooter for it though or at least the - attack/+ damage Portion. You're already looking at crossbow expert to be able to use a Xbox for action surge and the damage doesn't double on crits.

As far as extra attack is concerned i would say it is worth it but not until after reliable talent but I like skills more than most.

[CTurbo]

If you're planning on staying at range then you're not going to be making use of Riposte very often.

For a melee Battlemaster/Rogue that uses Riposte, I think Swashbuckler is best.

For a ranged SS Battlemaster/Rogue, I like Scout the best.

Assassin is good too, but you really want Alert. It's also far easier to use the Assassin's abilities at range. You'll almost never pull of a surprise round in melee, but from a couple hundred feet away with SS? It's not that hard.

[da newt]

Elvin Accuracy can really help the SS, and then I'd build to max my ADV opportunities.

Personally I like arcane trickster and an owl - if you can't hide or surprise for ADV, the HELP action w/ 60' fly speed and flyby is great.

I also prefer to get 2 attacks per turn (because only having one and missing is SO FRUSTRATING and sometimes you're out of superiority dice).

[Yakmala]

I've always liked pairing a dexterity based Battlemaster with Swashbucker for the added mobility and the ability to sneak attack while engaged 1 v 1 with an opponent.

You can do a number of different mixes of Battlemaster vs Swashbuckler level depending on if you value more attacks or better sneak attack damage more.

Pick up Ritual Caster for Find Familiar (and other useful tricks) as well as Elvish Accuracy.

Engage your opponent, have your familiar give you the help action for triple advantage from EA, as well as the Trip maneuver to get them prone. Toss in your sneak attack damage as well. Now that they are on the ground, you can do your additional attacks at triple advantage as well. If the target survives, you can always use Action Surge and keep hammering away.

[Expired]

If you're planning on staying at range then you're not going to be making use of Riposte very often.
CTurbo makes a good point here. In fact, I would purposely stay in melee with a build like Battle Master 3/Arcane Trickster 17 with rapier & shield, Sentinel, and Blur/Mirror Image. It allows you off-turn Sneak Attacks if they attack your ally within 5ft and if they attack you and miss, you can use Riposte. Mirror Image also triggers Sentinel. You do become a target, however, so make sure to have high Con.


Elvin Accuracy can really help the SS, and then I'd build to max my ADV opportunities.

Personally I like arcane trickster and an owl - if you can't hide or surprise for ADV, the HELP action w/ 60' fly speed and flyby is great.

I also prefer to get 2 attacks per turn (because only having one and missing is SO FRUSTRATING and sometimes you're out of superiority dice).
For ranged Rogues, I strongly suggest Elven Accuracy and Arcane Trickster for the reasons da newt mentioned. You can Hide/Aim (UA) to generate advantage to crit fish. In addition, you can cast Haste on yourself later and you and your Owl can hold your turn for an off-turn Sneak Attack with triple advantage.

[Man_Over_Game]

Inquisitive is a mentionable option as both a sniper and a melee combatant.

The Inquisitive can mark his target with a successful check, allowing him to sneak attack at any range without the need for Advantage or an ally. This allows you to pick off targets, knocking them prone from Battlemaster effects while dealing massive damage.

The mark also works for a melee combatant, since you don't need nearby allies and so you can Sneak Attack when you're on your own. This effectively works as the Swashbucklers power, with the exception that it only works if you can mark the target first and you don't have any specialty for running away.

[Joe the Rat]

You're already looking at crossbow expert to be able to use a Xbox for action surge and the damage doesn't double on crits.
Good to know an XBox is good for something...(Sometimes autocorrect is comedy gold)

On Sharpshooter: AFAIK, you can't turn it on and off within a turn, and hitting is going to be more important than +10. Crossbow expert lets you do gun kata hand crossbow hijinks from 0-30. If that angle appeals, Inquisitive, Arcane Trickster, or Scout might be better than Swashbuckler - fancy footwork is only good with melee attacks.


CTurbo makes a good point here. In fact, I would purposely stay in melee with a build like Battle Master 3/Arcane Trickster 17 with rapier & shield, Sentinel, and Blur/Mirror Image. It allows you off-turn Sneak Attacks if they attack your ally within 5ft and if they attack you and miss, you can use Riposte. Mirror Image also triggers Sentinel. You do become a target, however, so make sure to have high Con.
I think it's Riposte, not Sentinel, but the net effect (reaction attack, sneak option) is the same.

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

I think you definitely want the second Battlemaster attack. It's an extra chance per round to land a sneak attack. An extra chance to land Sharpshooter damage, which you can do multiple times per round. When you Action Surge, that's two extra chances. You're already 3 levels deep; a second attack is easily worth two more levels.

The choice of subclass (and combat style, and bm maneuvers) depends on what you want to optimize, and whether you prefer melee vs ranged.

Anyway,

Ken

[sithlordnergal]

I currently have a Battlemaster/Arcane Trickster in AL, and I have found the spells from Arcane Trickster are exceptionally handy. If you take Find Familiar, you have access to the best scouting spell in the game, bar none. And it all comes down to this line right here "As an action while it is temporarily dismissed, you can cause it to reappear in any unoccupied space within 30 feet of you." You don't need to see the space where it reappears. You can summon your familiar behind a door, then have it scout up to 100 feet for you while you communicate with it and see through its senses, all without opening a door.

I got lucky, and I have a familiar that can automatically detect poisons and can see invisible creatures thanks to a special certificate. I have used it to great effect by spotting Invisible ambushes by wizards, and detecting poisoned food and drink. Its one of the most handy tools in my repertoire.


EDIT: Another really good option is Battlemaster/Thief with the Healer feat. Not only am I the last to go down in most situations, but I can bring my companions back up.

[ThatoneGuy84]

I played BM 5 / Swashbuckler 7 in a campaign not that long ago.
Picked up Sentinal
With swash buckler 1/2 mobile feat you can skirmish really well.
Second attack is worth it 100%

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

More about levels: I think you're best off with Rog1/BM5-8/RogX.

Let's look at optimizing for ranged. You probably want Crossbow Expert, Sharpshooter and Dex20 ASAP. That's four ASIs.

Starting Rogue is better for you than Fighter, because you care more about extra skills than heavy armor or 4hp.

But then...

BM1: Archery
BM2: Action Surge
BM3: Maneuvers
BM4: ASI1 of 4
BM5: Second Attack

It might be tempting to divert to Rogue now, but your next ASI would come at character level 9! Not so good. A VHuman completes the set of ASIs at level 13, anyone else at level 15.

Maybe more tempting...

BM6: ASI2 of 4

A bit less tempting....

BM7: More BM stuff

Very tempting....

BM8: ASI3 of 4

And you're 1 ASI ahead at level 9. A VHuman would have the four essential ASIs at this point. Anyone else completes the set at level 12.

This is not necessarily the correct way to go, depending on what you want to optimize. Want to get Rogue skill bonuses early? The above is wrong, because it's not simply about what you get at the end but getting it early enough to have time to enjoy it.

Anyway,

Ken

[CTurbo]

I would personally want a Battle Master 5/Swashbuckler 15 melee build. Probably TWF. Variant Human with Sentinel to start. Max Dex out ASAP. Stand next to your melee buddy and use either Sentinel or Riposte every round in combat. The only real question here is whether to start Fighter or Rogue. Either way I would take full 5 level intervals.

So either Fighter 5, and then Rogue from there

or

Rogue 5, Fighter 5, then Rogue 10


Extra attack is only a minor boost here so getting it at character level 10 is not going to be a big deal.



Once Dex is maxed, I'd probably grab Mobile, and knowing me, either Magic Initiate or Ritual Caster. I could see potentially taking Dual Wielder late just to be able to use Rapiers and get the extra AC, but this build does not need it.

[Mr Adventurer]

I would personally want a Battle Master 5/Swashbuckler 15 melee build. Probably TWF. Variant Human with Sentinel to start. Max Dex out ASAP. Stand next to your melee buddy and use either Sentinel or Riposte every round in combat. The only real question here is whether to start Fighter or Rogue. Either way I would take full 5 level intervals.

So either Fighter 5, and then Rogue from there

or

Rogue 5, Fighter 5, then Rogue 10


Extra attack is only a minor boost here so getting it at character level 10 is not going to be a big deal.



Once Dex is maxed, I'd probably grab Mobile, and knowing me, either Magic Initiate or Ritual Caster. I could see potentially taking Dual Wielder late just to be able to use Rapiers and get the extra AC, but this build does not need it.

Definitely start with Rogue for the skill proficiencies: you don't need the armour proficiencies Fighter gives you. Rogue 1/Fighter 5/rest of Rogue, I'd advise.

[ImproperJustice]

I like options, so I am a fan of Thief.

1. Fast Hands to drink potions, or add poison to your weapons. Remember, poison coats only one weapon strike, but three pieces of ammo.
You can also bonus action slam potions or throw caltrops in front of you.

2. Mobility; Climbing at full speed can be handy for an archer looking for a better position.

[elyktsorb]

I like options, so I am a fan of Thief.

1. Fast Hands to drink potions,

Can't actually use fast hands with potions, can't use any magic items with fast hands

[HappyDaze]

Definitely start with Rogue for the skill proficiencies: you don't need the armour proficiencies Fighter gives you. Rogue 1/Fighter 5/rest of Rogue, I'd advise.

I'd rather have the Fighter Saves and add Res (Dex) even if I end up with one less skill.

[ImproperJustice]

Can't actually use fast hands with potions, can't use any magic items with fast hands

Huh. I guess according to JC you are right.
So by rules as weitten poor your healing potion into a flagon with a closed top and then you can drink it.
Because according to RAW consuming a beverage counts as Using and Object.

So there, JC juts established unoriginal containers as a legit policy in D&D

[Mr Adventurer]

I'd rather have the Fighter Saves and add Res (Dex) even if I end up with one less skill.
I'd rather have the skill choices from the Rogue class than the Fighter class to start.

[HappyDaze]

I'd rather have the skill choices from the Rogue class than the Fighter class to start.

Overall, skill proficiencies in 5e don't impress me much.

[Monster Manuel]

On Sharpshooter: AFAIK, you can't turn it on and off within a turn, and hitting is going to be more important than +10.

Kind of a tangent, but this caught my attention. Are you suggesting that if you take Sharpshooter that you HAVE to take the -5/+10, or did I mis-read the statement?
If so, this is the first time I've seen this argument being made...I've always seen the feat played as "you MAY take -5/+10" not "you MUST take -5/+10".

Is this a common ruling, that I've just completely missed?

[da newt]

I THINK the question is if you have multi attacks / round, can you make your 1st attack without SS, then make your second attack a 'called shot' - SS shot or vice versa (or even BA attack via XbowXpert)?

I'm not sure about RAW, but I've never had a DM tell me I couldn't choose SS or normal shot for each attack ...

[Expired]

Kind of a tangent, but this caught my attention. Are you suggesting that if you take Sharpshooter that you HAVE to take the -5/+10, or did I mis-read the statement?
If so, this is the first time I've seen this argument being made...I've always seen the feat played as "you MAY take -5/+10" not "you MUST take -5/+10".

Is this a common ruling, that I've just completely missed?


I THINK the question is if you have multi attacks / round, can you make your 1st attack without SS, then make your second attack a 'called shot' - SS shot or vice versa (or even BA attack via XbowXpert)?

I'm not sure about RAW, but I've never had a DM tell me I couldn't choose SS or normal shot for each attack ...
According to the PHB, "Before you make an attack with a ranged weapon that you are proficient with, you can choose to take a -5 penalty to the attack roll. If the attack hits, you add +10 to the attack's damage."

You choose when to apply Sharpshooter's effects before making an attack, which means it is not like Reckless Attack (which remains active for the remainder of your turn) and you can, in practice, apply SS for one shot and not the next.