What do HD represent?

[SunderedWorldDM]

I'm in the formative stages of a called shot system, and I wanted to incorporate a mechanic that involved you spending a HD to be able to make a called shot. But that got me thinking, does that fit into the narrative? Does it make sense that you would spend a HD to get the opportunity to make a more precise attack with perhaps debilitating effect?

But I quickly ran into another problem, and that's that HD don't exist in the fiction. Like, what are they? If you only use HD for short rests, they represent short burst healing, I guess? Or your medical tools at your disposal? But then HD is measuring how many bandages you have on you and how good your Cleric is at medical assistance under pressure. Or HD is like your resolve, your endurance? But then why would you draw healing from that? The problem is that HP are already so hand-wavey as to what they represent in the fiction that you don't even have a stable basis on which to ground a conception of HD in the fiction. A game in which HP represent "close scrapes" would have HD represent something different than a game where HP is "how intact the meat is".

So what is a HD, diegetically? And would it make any sense at all to attach a combat mechanic to spending HD?

[KorvinStarmast]

So what is a HD, diegetically? And would it make any sense at all to attach a combat mechanic to spending HD? You want Gygax's original idea, or the current rules text from D&D 5e?
Gary Said This:

AD&D 1e (PHB p. 34)

These hit points represent how much damage (actual or potential) the character can withstand before being killed. A certain amount of these hit points represent the actual physical punishment which can be sustained. The remainder, a significant portion of hit points at higher levels, stands for skill, luck, and / or magical factors. {snip} Let us suppose that a 10th level fighter has 55 hit points, plus a bonus of 30 hit points for his constitution, for a total of 85 hit points. This is the equivalent of about 18 hit dice for creatures, about what it would take to kill four huge warhorses. It is ridiculous to assume that even a fantastic fighter can take that much punishment. The some holds true to a lesser extent for clerics, thieves, and the other classes. Thus, the majority of hit points are symbolic of combat skill, luck (bestowed by supernatural powers), and magical forces.
As this is the 5e sub forum ....

Your character’s hit points define how tough your character is in combat and other dangerous situations

An extended answer is here. (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/108501/22566)

[Yora]

I see HD and hit points together as an abstract representation of a character's ability to suffer through and recover from bruises, strains, and minor concussions. They don't really make sense as two separate things.

[DeTess]

So what is a HD, diegetically? And would it make any sense at all to attach a combat mechanic to spending HD?

The other posters have already answered the rest of your question, so I'll quickly add some of my thoughts on this part. I would say that it could make sense. Spending of the hit-die could indicate the character overexerting themselves in some way (if its for a martial effect), or even using their own life-force for more magical abilities (casting from hit-points is a fairly well-known trope in fantasy media).

[GrayDeath]

Hill Dwarves? Ergo the Dwarves that are neither Dwarf enough to live under the Mountain nor badass enough to adventure?
Nothing important. :smallamused:


Aside from that, could you elaborate how you "spend" a Hit Die on a called Shot in your planned System?
Sacrificing HP for called shots sounds dumb, and only being able to do called shots if you spend" an HD for it as well.

Do you maybe mean that you need Levels in a Class granting the ability?

You did, after all, post in the 5th Ed Forum ^^

[KorvinStarmast]

Sacrificing HP for called shots sounds dumb, I think that I mostly agree with you, but since HP/HD also represent "luck" diegetically (see my quote on Gygax' original ideas on them) then "using up some of one's luck on this shot" might make some sense. I think that's where the OP is coming from. (But I've been wrong before)

[SunderedWorldDM]

Aside from that, could you elaborate how you "spend" a Hit Die on a called Shot in your planned System?
Sacrificing HP for called shots sounds dumb, and only being able to do called shots if you spend" an HD for it as well.

Do you maybe mean that you need Levels in a Class granting the ability?

You did, after all, post in the 5th Ed Forum ^^

What I mean is that I want a way to stop martials from making a called shot every attack, and as such I want to tie it to a limited resource that increases with level. I thought that if I used HD, it would make called shots an interesting choice: I can attack the beholder's central eye now, but if we have to take a short rest later (which I do plan on making more common in my games, especially mid-adventure), I might not be able to recover fully from this fight. In effect, you're "leaving it on the dance floor" by making these called shots.

But I'm also a big advocate for mechanics aligning with story, so I want to know if this even makes sense? Like, if I don't know what HD represent on their own, I don't know if a person in the narrative can equate trading those things? If HD represents your ability to patch up quickly, then no, but if it represents vitality and stamina yes, that makes sense. That's my predicament: the mechanical aspect makes sense to me, but I don't know if the story aligns with that.

(And the reason I'm making a called shot system is to balance martial characters against mages, who I'm giving a big retool and a lot more mechanical freedom/options. It's a whole thing.)

[Joe the Rat]

With hit points as "ability to take a hit," Hit Dice are more like your Stamina - Long term endurance, shock recovery, pain management, organ reserves - what you use to pick yourself up after getting exhausted (but not Exhausted*) from fighting. It also leans into wounds, as they are not as easily recovered. You get your full trim (full HP) on a long rest, but your deeper reserves - your ability to recover again - gets diminished (half HD recovered).

Anything interacting with HD is dipping into deeper reserves. Forcing additional uses of an expended resource would be a possibility. For something like called shots, I'd be more inclined to spend hit points to fuel the effort over hit dice. Alternatively, you could forgo resources and make a "crit or beat by X" - trading extra damage for effect, and providing a way to make such a hit more than 5% of the time.



* - I've been tooling around with "spend HD to 'cure' a level of Exhaustion" mechanics.

[Willie the Duck]

In previous editions, where Hit Dice were tied directly to monster HP totals and attack values, I think it represented as much of a defined thing as character level did (which is to say, a very loosey goosey equivalent to overall power). However in this version, where they are a secondary gas tank of hit points you can use to recover your primary tank during short rests? Yeah, other than an overall 'they+HP = abstract measure of combat resilience,' there isn't any specific or significantly profound meaning beyond that.

[Yora]

What I mean is that I want a way to stop martials from making a called shot every attack, and as such I want to tie it to a limited resource that increases with level. I thought that if I used HD, it would make called shots an interesting choice: I can attack the beholder's central eye now, but if we have to take a short rest later (which I do plan on making more common in my games, especially mid-adventure), I might not be able to recover fully from this fight. In effect, you're "leaving it on the dance floor" by making these called shots.

Action Surge seems like the right thing for that. But that would limit it to only fighters, and could only be done once per short rest.

[SunderedWorldDM]

Action Surge seems like the right thing for that. But that would limit it to only fighters, and could only be done once per short rest.
Yes, and the other thing that I want to do with called shots is allow players to make up effects (I want to cut off an arm! I want to blind them! I want to shatter the gem in their chest!), because that's a thing that my mages will be able to do and I don't want martials to lose out on that fun. Just something that martial characters have the extra choice to do. Point being, I'm trying to figure out if attaching that to HD is the move, or if I should attach it to some other resource. The more I hear, the more convinced I am that HD are indeed what I'm looking for.

[KorvinStarmast]

Yes, and the other thing that I want to do with called shots is allow players to make up effects (I want to cut off an arm! I want to blind them! I want to shatter the gem in their chest!), because that's a thing that my mages will be able to do and I don't want martials to lose out on that fun. Just something that martial characters have the extra choice to do. Point being, I'm trying to figure out if attaching that to HD is the move, or if I should attach it to some other resource. The more I hear, the more convinced I am that HD are indeed what I'm looking for. Have you reviewed the alternate rules in the DMG?
My standard convention as a DM is when someone asks for a called shot, we start with disadvantage and it gets harder from there. Why? There is no mechanic for this in this edition.
(There are some ideas in the DMG, but I will say this: we tried this "damage by hit location" thing in Original D&D. It's too clunky, and it slows down play.)

"Called shot" is also an attempt at an "I win" button, or a cinematic style "Bard hits Smaug where there is no crust" ... and really does not fit the mechanics of this edition very well.

[LtPowers]

Yes, and the other thing that I want to do with called shots is allow players to make up effects (I want to cut off an arm! I want to blind them! I want to shatter the gem in their chest!), because that's a thing that my mages will be able to do and I don't want martials to lose out on that fun.

They can already do that. When the enemy is reduced to 0HP, you say "How do you want to do this?" And then they make it up.

Remember, these are professional adventurers. They're always trying to hit enemies for maximum effectiveness. It's baked into the combat mechanic. And they can narrate the hit however they like.


Powers &8^]

[SunderedWorldDM]

Have you reviewed the alternate rules in the DMG?
My standard convention as a DM is when someone asks for a called shot, we start with disadvantage and it gets harder from there. Why? There is no mechanic for this in this edition.
(There are some ideas in the DMG, but I will say this: we tried this "damage by hit location" thing in Original D&D. It's too clunky, and it slows down play.)

"Called shot" is also an attempt at an "I win" button, or a cinematic style "Bard hits Smaug where there is no crust" ... and really does not fit the mechanics of this edition very well.
Of course, that's going to be baked in. Should I just write up my system now and show it off? I certainly can, as I feel the discussion has derailed a bit, and I'm happy to put it to paper and explain all of these weird things I'm talking about.

They can already do that. When the enemy is reduced to 0HP, you say "How do you want to do this?" And then they make it up.

Remember, these are professional adventurers. They're always trying to hit enemies for maximum effectiveness. It's baked into the combat mechanic. And they can narrate the hit however they like.

Powers &8^]
With this system I would integrate homebrew monsters that would have special sort of mechanics tied to called shots: a creature with a crystal in its chest, shattering the crystal with a couple shots would make it lose its spellcasting ability. A beholder, and you could use called shots to cut off eyes and reduce their abilities. A player would have to make the choice to make a special type of attack against these enemies, else they're assumed to be swatting at whatever bit comes close, which is what I assume the "standard strategy" is.

I think I should just write up the mechanics now so you all can see what I'm getting at and why I'm doing it. Prepare for that happening at some point.

[SunderedWorldDM]

My Quick and Dirty Explanation of What I Have So Far:
If you are a martial character (i.e., you don't have Mana Points (the new spellcasting system I was talking about)), then you have the option to make called shots. How that works is you expend a HD and choose to make a called shot, telling he DM what you're targeting and what you plan to do ("I want to blind it by stabbing it in the eyes", or "I want to restrict its mobility by cutting of a few of its legs", or "I want to shatter the crystal so it can't cast spells at us anymore"). Depending on the severity of the effect, the DM rules whether this is a Standard or Dangerous shot (generally, just an effect is standard, while an effect and damage is dangerous (throwing sand in their eyes vs. stabbing them in the eyes)). Then, make an attack roll with disadvantage. If you hit, you go forward with the agreed upon/ruled conclusion of the shot ("You stab it, blinding it!" "You hack away at its legs, making them irreparably damaged!" "The crystal shatters and the ley line energy fades from the room!"). If you miss, however, on a Standard shot, nothing happens. On a Dangerous shot, the creature gets to make a free attack against you on account of you letting down your guard for this maneuver.

Things to note:
1) I wanted to use HD so that a player couldn't keep making called shots whenever they pleased, there was a sub-mechanic of resource management involved: even if you use all your HD over an adventure, you only get half of them back over a long rest, and if you have to take a short rest, well, best wish to your lucky stars you aren't fighting a beholder.
2) Called shots are still tricky to pull off and dangerous: if you miss, you've wasted a HD at best, and are gonna take some damage at worst, which feels right to me. High risk high reward.
3) Preemptively, I would like to state that I do not have problems with collaborating with a player to hammer out a mechanical effect in live time. I understand that other people like granular systems that account for every possibility, but that is not the way I do things at my table.

[Anymage]

In a very abstract metagame sense, hit dice are a way to reduce healer dependency. You can recover somewhat without having to wait ages for natural healing or pestering whoever got stuck playing the cleric. In this way I'm a little worried that turning them into too much of a combat resource will result in them being spent as such, instead of a way to recover somewhat between encounters. That kind of brings you back to high nova encounters and five minute adventuring days.

In the story, I picture them the same way that I do the 4e healing surge. "Realistically" (as in, informed more from action heroes and everyday experiences than medical facts of tissue trauma), it makes sense that someone would be in better shape after seeing to their wounds and having had some time to catch their breath. Having some in-game way to express that without going full Final Fantasy 14 and recovering everybody to full once the battle ends makes sense. Drawing something from your reserve tank in the "I'm going to really feel that tomorrow" sense in order to push your limits today makes sense. Except again for the game philosophy part where turning them into a combat resource will turn that into their primary use.

[SunderedWorldDM]

In a very abstract metagame sense, hit dice are a way to reduce healer dependency. You can recover somewhat without having to wait ages for natural healing or pestering whoever got stuck playing the cleric. In this way I'm a little worried that turning them into too much of a combat resource will result in them being spent as such, instead of a way to recover somewhat between encounters. That kind of brings you back to high nova encounters and five minute adventuring days.

In the story, I picture them the same way that I do the 4e healing surge. "Realistically" (as in, informed more from action heroes and everyday experiences than medical facts of tissue trauma), it makes sense that someone would be in better shape after seeing to their wounds and having had some time to catch their breath. Having some in-game way to express that without going full Final Fantasy 14 and recovering everybody to full once the battle ends makes sense. Drawing something from your reserve tank in the "I'm going to really feel that tomorrow" sense in order to push your limits today makes sense. Except again for the game philosophy part where turning them into a combat resource will turn that into their primary use.
That makes sense, but I think I'm okay with that, as I also plan on making my game a lot less friendly towards long rests in the middle of adventures (with things like more aggressively checking for random encounters when the PCs decide to rest in dangerous areas, putting time limits on missions ("you have 5 hours before the death maggots eat through your friend!"), and making safety less accessible by having adventure areas refill with threats after a number of hours), so HD become a valuable resource for martial types to consider: do I want to heal later or get rid of this monster quickly? Though of course, I've yet to playtest these ideas, so they could all fall apart in play, but I'd rather playtest them than abort this because internet people said so, all due respect.

[Damon_Tor]

Hit points represents pain tolerance, hit dice is your actual injury limit. Dieing from 0hp when you've got plenty of hd is like going into shock.

[MaxWilson]

Yes, and the other thing that I want to do with called shots is allow players to make up effects (I want to cut off an arm! I want to blind them! I want to shatter the gem in their chest!), because that's a thing that my mages will be able to do and I don't want martials to lose out on that fun. Just something that martial characters have the extra choice to do. Point being, I'm trying to figure out if attaching that to HD is the move, or if I should attach it to some other resource. The more I hear, the more convinced I am that HD are indeed what I'm looking for.

To me this sounds more like spending narrative karma than HD. What balances out the narrative karma? Well, it could be either "bad things happening to you" or "awesome things done by somebody else that make you look comparatively less narratively-central." The first option gives you heroes like Conan who have good years and bad years. The second gives you spotlight balance.

A simple system that combines both is to have one karma die that lets you do awesome and improbable things, potentially, and gets passed around the table. When you try to do something awesome and normally-illegal, the DM will assess a difficulty on d6: maybe landing on your feet after a 20' fall requires a 1+, maybe blinding a specific beholder eye requires a 3+ and at least 10 HP of damage on the attack, and maybe killing Smaug with a single arrow to his weak spot requires a 6+ and at least 20 HP of damage on the attack AND knowing about the weak spot. DM decides details but those examples are how I'd run those situations, in a narratively-oriented campaign.

If you succeed on the d6, the thing happens, and you choose who to pass the karma die to next.

If you fail, the thing does not happen, and the Adversary (usually the DM) chooses who to pass the die to next. Whenever the karma die belongs to an NPC, the DM chooses when to use it.

If the karma die holder is removed from play for an extended period (killed, captured in stasis, retires offscreen to his farm, etc.) the die goes to a onscreen random PC.

Optionally, for groups that play infrequently: at the beginning of a play session, the die moves to a random onscreen PC.