Seeker of Lost Swords (a new martial adept/spellcasting PRC)

[Elves]

Next in our series of Tome of Battle theurge PrCs (1 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?610657-Demonspawn-Harbinger-(PRC-martial-adept-warlock-theurge)), 2 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?610751-Bladebinder-(PRC-martial-adept-binder-theurge)), 3 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?610828-Knight-of-the-Word-(PRC-martial-adept-truenamer-theurge))) is another class by Joshua Z. The original version of this class is here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=7753134&postcount=1).

This class is supposed to be an interesting alternative to Jade Phoenix mage, while leaving JPM as the default choice. The question is, does it meet that goal?

>Google docs link (https://docs.google.com/document/d/18feFaEq5GItluuZugMHE3tOjDRDGzuB8ylHUO0QPPW4/edit?usp=sharing)

[Elves]

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Seeker of Lost Swords
"I contain within my soul the knowledge and skill of hundreds of masters who came before me. And you, with your single phoenix soul, have lived what? A few dozen lifetimes, next to the hundreds I’ve absorbed? Here, let me help you catch up."
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—Talmagat, a Seeker of Lost Swords, before a duel with a Jade Phoenix mage
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Many of the greatest martial adepts of their day died during the sack of Reshar’s temple. With the loss of their minds, vast amounts of martial lore were vanished to posterity. Entire minor disciplines may have been wiped out.

A group of swordsages, horrified by this loss of knowledge, turned to the necromantic arts to try and recover it. With much labor, they devised a ritual that could steal knowledge from the spirits of the dead.

Because this left those spirits weakened and diminished, their methods were controversial. To ease over this distaste, and perhaps to euphemistically evade detection, they gave themselves a refined name, a moniker by which members of this practice still recognize each other, and in which they recognize their aims: the Seekers of Lost Swords.


ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) or (religion) 8 ranks, Martial Lore 8 ranks, Profession (coroner) 4 ranks
Feats: Spell Focus (Necromancy)
Maneuvers: Three maneuvers, including a Narrow Bridge maneuver of at least 2nd level
Spellcasting: Able to cast a 2nd level necromancy spell
Special: Must consume a special alchemical mixture made from the ashes of a corpse of someone able to use martial maneuvers. Only existing Seekers know how to create this mixture.

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Table: the Seeker of Lost Swords------Hit Die: d6
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Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Man. Known
Man. Readied
Stances Known
Special
Spellcasting


1st
+1
+0
+0
+2
1
0
0
Learn what the dead knew, necromantic penetration
—


2nd
+2
+0
+0
+3
0
0
0
Forensic expertise, necromantic synergy
+1 level of spellcasting class


3rd
+3
+1
+1
+3
1
0
1
Rite of recuperation
—


4th
+4
+1
+1
+4
0
0
0
Death’s quickness, speak with dead
+1 level of spellcasting class


5th
+5
+1
+1
+4
1
1
0
Martial Necromancy, martial séance
+1 level of spellcasting class


6th
+6
+2
+2
+5
0
0
0
Steal from the minds of the living
+1 level of spellcasting class


7th
+7
+1
+2
+5
1
0
0
Necrotic channeling
+1 level of spellcasting class


8th
+8
+2
+2
+6
0
0
1
Dark chi power
+1 level of spellcasting class


9th
+9
+3
+3
+6
1
0
0
Dark chi transfer
+1 level of spellcasting class


10th
+10
+3
+3
+7
0
1
0
Endless reservoir of knowledge, necrotic enlightenment
+1 level of spellcasting class



Class Skills: Concentration, Craft, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (history), Knowledge (local), Knowledge (religion), Martial Lore, Profession, Sense Motive, Spellcraft.

Skill points at each level: 2 + Intelligence modifier


CLASS FEATURES

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: You gain no additional weapon or armor proficiencies.

Maneuvers: At each even-numbered level, you gain a new maneuver known from the Narrow Bridge discipline. At levels 5th and 10th, you gain an additional maneuver readied.

Stances Known: At levels 3rd and 8th, you gain a new stance from the Narrow Bridge discipline.

Spellcasting: At each level except 1st and 3rd, you gain new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in one arcane or divine spellcasting class to which you already belong and in which you can cast necromancy spells of at least 2nd level. You don’t gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained.

Learn What the Dead Knew (Su): By simply touching a corpse, you gain an instinctive impression of whether it had any martial prowess in life. You learn if it was capable of using maneuvers and may make Martial Lore checks to recognize every maneuver it knew when it died, as if you had witnessed those maneuvers being performed. This takes a standard action, and there is no retry for recognizing maneuvers this way.
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If the corpse you touch isn’t fresh or well-preserved, you take a -2 penalty on your Martial Lore checks, which increases to -4 if parts of the corpse are missing. You take a -10 penalty if you have only a disattached body part, such as a decapitated head.

Necromantic Penetration (Su): Whenever you hit a target who has spell resistance with an attack made as part of a strike maneuver, the target's SR against necromancy spells and effects is reduced by your class level for 1 minute. Multiple uses of this ability don’t stack, but they reset the duration of the debuff. This ability stacks with other ways of reducing spell resistance. Don’t make fun of this ability’s name.

Forensic Expertise (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, when you use your Profession (coroner) skill to identify a corpse’s cause of death, you can rapidly and precisely assess its wounds. If the creature was killed by a spell or a maneuver, and your Profession (coroner) check is equal to the Martial Lore or Spellcraft DC that would be necessary to identify that effect, you learn exactly what spell or maneuver killed them. You take the normal penalties for a damaged, badly preserved or incomplete corpse.
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In addition, you can sense the remnants of necromantic auras. Whenever you touch a corpse, you know instinctively if the corpse was ever an undead or deathless being (or if it is one…).

Necromantic Synergy (Ex): While in a martial stance, you gain a bonus equal to the stance’s level on Concentration checks to successfully cast a necromancy spell or cast a necromancy spell defensively. If you’re in multiple stances, only add the highest value.

Rite of Recuperation (Su): At 3rd level, you learn how to perform a necromantic ritual that takes martial knowledge from the dead. This ritual requires the corpse of a martial adept, plus special incense worth 250 gp. You must have used your Learn What the Dead Knew ability to successfully identify one or more of the dead adept’s maneuvers.
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During the ritual, which must be performed at night, you burn the corpse. The ritual takes as long as the corpse takes to burn, or two hours, whichever is longer. If the process is interrupted, you must make a DC 20 Concentration check or the ritual fails and the corpse is wasted. Each subsequent interruption increases the DC of this check by 4. If you’re separated from the corpse, the ritual fails.
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Upon successfully completing the ritual, you learn the secrets of one maneuver of your choice that you identified the dead adept as knowing, and which you would have a sufficient initiator level to learn (you need not meet its prerequisites or have access to its discipline). You gain the ability to initiate that maneuver once per day.
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However, this ability only lets you obtain one maneuver of each level you are capable of learning, 1st through 9th. If you use the Rite to obtain a second maneuver of the same level as one you previously obtained through the Rite, the new maneuver overwrites your previous choice.
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You can’t obtain stances or epic maneuvers with this ability.
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A maneuver accessed through this ability doesn’t count as a known maneuver for any purpose other than initiating it via this class feature. It doesn’t fulfill prerequisites or requirements, and you can’t ready it normally.
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This ability actually steals knowledge from the spirit of the departed, stripping them of what they knew and weakening their soul’s integrity.
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If the creature whose corpse you performed the ritual upon is returned to life, you lose the benefit of the maneuver you took from them. Similarly, multiple members of this class cannot take the same maneuver from the same corpse.
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The ritual does not work with the corpse of a clone, simulacrum, or similar effigy. A soul-incorporating effigy, like an astral projection, is sufficient. You can perform the ritual on the corpse of a creature who became undead in the interim since their death, so long as the undead creature was destroyed.
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Another member of this class who uses their Learn What the Dead Knew class feature on your corpse can identify any maneuvers you gained through this ability. If they perform the Rite on your corpse, then in addition to the normal maneuver they could take from you, they can take any number of maneuvers you gained through this ability which they successfully identified.

Death's Quickness (Su): Once per round, starting at 4th level, you may expend a spell slot or a prepared necromancy spell to switch to another stance as a free action. The stance you switch to can’t be higher level than the spell or slot you expended.

Speak with Dead: At 4th level, speak with dead is added to the 3rd-level spell list of any class whose spellcasting you have advanced with levels in this class. It’s also added to your list of spells known for any such class through which you are able to cast 3rd level spells. It can't be swapped or traded for a different spell known.
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Good-aligned Seekers often use this spell to ask permission from dead spirits whose corpses they wish to subject to the Rite of Recuperation.

Martial Necromancy: At 5th level, you gain Martial Necromancy as a bonus feat (see below). Whenever this feat grants an undead creature you create the Martial Study feat, maneuvers you have access to via Rite of Recuperation are among the maneuvers they may select. They must still meet the prerequisites of the maneuver they choose.

Martial Séance: Once per month, starting at 5th level, you may perform a special seance. It must be performed at night, and requires special incenses and reagents worth 250 gp, as well as sufficient space for athletic practice. During the seance, you contact the spirits of dead martial masters and command them to teach you their secrets, stealing their knowledge. For two hours, trance-bound, you train under their guidance. At the end of this time, you obtain any one eligible maneuver just as if you had gained it through the Rite of Recuperation. However, in order to successfully obtain the desired maneuver, you must succeed on a Concentration check with a DC of 20 + twice its level. If you fail, you don't gain the maneuver, and although your monthly use of this class feature is not spent, you must wait until the following night to attempt the séance again.

Steal from the Minds of the Living (Su): At 6th level, you gain a strike substitution effect, usable once per encounter, that allows you to rip martial and magical knowledge from targets who are still alive.
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This strike effect takes a standard action to initiate. Make a single melee attack. If you hit, you deal normal damage and the target must make a Will save. If they fail, you steal one maneuver they know, if any, and one spell they know or have prepared, if any, of the highest level they know that your level would be high enough to learn. You can use each stolen maneuver or spell once during the next minute. Until you do so or the duration ends, the target has no ability to use, and is treated as not knowing, the stolen maneuver and/or spell.
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You can try to steal a specific spell or maneuver instead of your theft being random. Your level must still be high enough to learn the spell or maneuver you wish to steal. If your target doesn’t know that maneuver or spell, or if your target is a prepared spellcaster who doesn’t have that spell prepared, your theft is determined randomly, as above. If you wish to steal a prepared spell with metamagic applied to it, you must correctly name the metamagic (eg, “empowered magic missile”) or you fail and your theft is resolved randomly.

Necrotic Channeling (Su): At 7th level, you can channel necromancy spells through your weapon. You can cast a necromancy spell with a range of touch as part of the same action in which you make a standard melee attack, or initiate a standard action melee strike, against an adjacent target. The spell is declared before the attack, but resolved afterward. It has the same target as the attack. If the target is killed or destroyed by the attack, the spell is wasted, but still expended.

Dark Chi Power (Ex): Once per encounter, starting at 8th level, you may sacrifice a prepared necromancy spell, or a spell slot capable of being used to cast a necromancy spell, to initiate a Narrow Bridge maneuver you know that is of equal or lesser level, even if the maneuver is expended or not readied. If you have that maneuver readied, it’s not expended.

Dark Chi Transfer (Su): At 9th level, you have learned to substitute necromantic power for martial flexibility and vice-versa. Each day, you may exercise one of the following options.
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• Expend a spell slot of the highest spell level you can cast to increase your number of readied maneuvers by 1 for the next day.
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• Reduce your number of readied maneuvers by 1 for the next day. In exchange, you gain an extra spell slot of the next-to-highest spell level you can cast with one class whose casting you’ve advanced with your levels in this class. This extra spell slot can only be used to prepare and cast necromancy spells.
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If you’re a prepared spellcaster, this choice is made while preparing your spells. If you’re a spontaneous spellcaster, you make the choice when your spells refresh, before casting any.

Endless Reservoir of Knowledge (Su): At 10th level, there is no longer any limit on the number of maneuvers you can obtain through the Rite of Recuperation. However, you can still only initiate one of your Rite of Recuperation maneuvers per maneuver level each day.

Necrotic Enlightenment (Ex): At 10th level, you may use the higher of your initiator level or your caster level for the purpose of any effect reliant on either. Only your initiator level and caster level for classes whose initiating or casting you have advanced with levels in this class are eligible.

[Elves]

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NEW FEATS


Martial Necromancy [General]
You have learned how to channel some of your martial skill into undead you create.
Prerequisites: Must know a martial maneuver of at least 2nd level
Benefit: Whenever you create an undead creature, you may choose to give it Martial Study as a bonus feat, which must be for a maneuver you know and for which the undead creature qualifies. The bonus feat can't be traded for another feat in any way.


Theft of the Ultimate Secret [Epic]
Prerequisites: Character level 21st, initiator level 21st, Seeker of Lost Swords level 10th
Benefit: Your Rite of Recuperation class feature now allows you to obtain epic maneuvers, in addition to maneuvers of 1st through 9th level. However, epic maneuvers obtained through the Rite do not benefit from your Infinite Reservoir of Knowledge class feature: any subsequent epic maneuver obtained overwrites the previous one. You cannot obtain pinnacle maneuvers through the Rite.

[Elves]

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Adaptation

With the DM’s permission, you can use your Learn What the Dead Knew and Rite of Recuperation abilities to identify and obtain use of spells, in addition to martial maneuvers. If the subject was a prepared caster, only spells they had prepared and unexpended at the time of their death are eligible to be identified and obtained. If you use a spellbook, you can scribe any spells accessed through the Rite of Recuperation into your spellbook.

You have separate allowances for spells and martial maneuvers — one per level, 1st through 9th, in each case. If a subject knew both spells and maneuvers, you can obtain up to one of each when you perform the Rite of Recuperation on them.

A spell you cast through the Rite of Recuperation ability can’t be modified with metamagic. It’s cast as an arcane spell unless you have divine spellcasting ability. Just as with a maneuver, a spell accessed through this ability can’t fulfill prerequisites or requirements of any kind.

This capacity does not benefit from your Endless Reservoir of Knowledge class feature. That feature only affects your ability to obtain maneuvers with the Rite.

[Elves]

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Questions

• I'm not sure what the best order is for the 4th-7th level abilities (Death's Quickness, Steal from the Minds of the Living, Martial Necromancy and Necrotic Channeling).

• Is the capstone too strong?


PEACH. As always I'd love to hear your ideas for new abilities that could be added, too.

[Elves]

Another concrete question. Right now, the class allows entry one level earlier than JPM, making it viable to go caster 4/martial adept 1/seeker of lost swords 10/JPM 5. Compared to the standard JPM build of wizard 5/martial adept 1/JPM 10/abjurant champion 4, this trades 9th level spells for 9th level maneuvers, which doesn't seem overpowered.

It's also intentionally more sorcerer friendly, like a couple of the class features, since JPM denies sorcerer 9ths without giving them anything back for it (and forces them to go sorcerer 5 when 4 would be more friendly).

I don't see a problem with this but I might be overlooking something.

[NigelWalmsley]

Once again, there is no reason to reduce progression for Theurge classes. You are already losing caster levels by taking other classes. I guess you can technically not do that here with Martial Study tricks, but at that point you benefit from basically none of the class features, so it feels kinda medium anyway.

I do appreciate that it segues into JPM, somewhat mitigating the "running out of levels" problem Theurge classes have.


Spellcasting: Able to cast a 2nd level necromancy spell

This should require it to be an arcane necromancy spell, because the class only advances arcane casting. Alternatively, you could just allow it to advance divine casting too. It's not like drawing on the knowledge of the dead is off-theme for divine casters.


Maneuvers: At each even-numbered level, you gain a new maneuver known from the Narrow Bridge discipline. At levels 5th and 10th, you gain an additional maneuver readied.

It seems like this should probably allow you to advance other disciplines too. "Sword Necromancer" is already pretty narrow conceptually, making it narrow mechanically too seems like a miss. Also there should probably be a link to the Narrow Bridge discipline somewhere.


Rite of Recuperation (Su): At 3rd level, you learn how to perform a necromantic ritual that takes martial knowledge from the dead. This ritual requires the corpse of a martial adept, plus special incense worth 250 gp. You must have used your Learn What the Dead Knew ability to successfully identify one or more of the dead adept’s maneuvers.

This seems really restricted for what it is. You can, for a fee, if you can find a suitable corpse, get an ability 1/day that is balanced for being used once or more per encounter. That doesn't sound all that impressive to me.


This ability actually steals knowledge from the spirit of the departed, stripping them of what they knew and weakening their soul’s integrity.
If the creature whose corpse you performed the ritual upon is returned to life, you lose the benefit of the maneuver you took from them. Similarly, multiple members of this class cannot take the same maneuver from the same corpse.

So what soul integrity are you supposed to be weakening if they get the maneuver back if they come back to life? If this is just supposed to be a fluff thing, it seems weird to stick it in the middle of a bunch of mechanical stuff.


Speak with Dead: At 4th level, speak with dead is added to the 3rd-level spell list of any class whose spellcasting you have advanced with levels in this class. It’s also added to your list of spells known for any such spontaneous spellcasting class through which you are able to cast 3rd level spells. It can't be swapped or traded for a different spell known.

Personally, I would just have this say "you gain Speak With Dead as an additional 3rd level spell known". Nothing you have is really wrong, but I feel like the extra text doesn't add anything either.


Martial Necromancy: At 5th level, you gain Martial Necromancy as a bonus feat (see below). Whenever this feat grants an undead creature you create the Martial Study feat, maneuvers you have access to via Rite of Recuperation are among the maneuvers they may select. They must still meet the prerequisites of the maneuver they choose.

How does this interact with the various ways I can lose Rite of Recuperation maneuvers? Do my zombies lose maneuvers I replace? What if the corpses I took them from get rez'd?


• Reduce your number of readied maneuvers by 1 for the next day. In exchange, you gain an extra spell slot of the next-to-highest spell level you can cast with one class whose casting you’ve advanced with your levels in this class. This extra spell slot can only be used to prepare and cast necromancy spells.

Is this supposed to help you do Idiot Crusader stuff?

[Elves]

Once again, there is no reason to reduce progression for Theurge classes. You are already losing caster levels by taking other classes.
Since it only requires 1 martial adept level, though, that's about as minimal a cost as you can get.

Also, I don't want it to be baseline better than JPM. You may call it unnecessarily copying outdated design, but I think these classes should fit in alongside the OG TOB content.


Alternatively, you could just allow it to advance divine casting too. It's not like drawing on the knowledge of the dead is off-theme for divine casters.
Good point. Changed.


Also there should probably be a link to the Narrow Bridge discipline somewhere.
Not done revising it, will link when done.


This seems really restricted for what it is. You can, for a fee, if you can find a suitable corpse, get an ability 1/day that is balanced for being used once or more per encounter. That doesn't sound all that impressive to me.
It's 1 per day per maneuver level, so if you have IL 11th for example it's 6 per day. And you don't have to meet the maneuver's prerequisites, unlike an item. And then at 10th it becomes from a limitless maneuver pool. Does it still seem like too little? Suggestions for improving?

By the way, similar to your suggestion with the Demonspawn Harbinger and its rp-requirement part, I added an occasionally usable ability that lets you contact the spirits of the dead or whatever and choose any maneuver you like, as a safety net.




So what soul integrity are you supposed to be weakening if they get the maneuver back if they come back to life?
Initially it was that if they came back to life they no longer knew the maneuver. But that seemed problematic so I reversed it. Which also seemed to add a "fun" incentive to keep them dead, while not being too problematic because by burning their corpse in the ritual you've already precluded anything but true resurrection.

It does seem at odds with the fluff however. Maybe if the subject comes back they just have to pay xp to regain access to the mv? What do you think?

Don't want to just delete this part -- the knowledge being zero-sum was added to keep the class edgy.



Personally, I would just have this say "you gain Speak With Dead as an additional 3rd level spell known". Nothing you have is really wrong, but I feel like the extra text doesn't add anything either.
Simplified it slightly. Don't want it to imply that a sorcerer would gain it as a known spell even if they don't know 3rd lvl spells yet. entry shenanigans.



How does this interact with the various ways I can lose Rite of Recuperation maneuvers? Do my zombies lose maneuvers I replace? What if the corpses I took them from get rez'd?
They would keep. Will clarify. Still relevant if rez thing is changed, because of tradeouts.



Is this supposed to help you do Idiot Crusader stuff?
Ha. No, hadn't thought of it that way. I think if someone's doing that they'll do it anyway, don't see a need to change.