Eldritch Knight Change

[Sparky McDibben]

Hey all,

Quick question - if I changed the Eldritch Knight to use the cleric spell list instead of the wizard spell list, would that break anything? I might also change the spellcasting ability to Wisdom instead of Intelligence.

[MaxWilson]

Hey all,

Quick question - if I changed the Eldritch Knight to use the cleric spell list instead of the wizard spell list, would that break anything? I might also change the spellcasting ability to Wisdom instead of Intelligence.

Would you keep the restrictions on spells known and evoc/abj spells in place? They're just picking their spells from the cleric list instead of the wizard list?

It probably doesn't break anything, but expect to see a lot of Spiritual Hammers. I mean, Spiritual Weapons.

[Sparky McDibben]

Would you keep the restrictions on spells known and evoc/abj spells in place? They're just picking their spells from the cleric list instead of the wizard list?

It probably doesn't break anything, but expect to see a lot of Spiritual Hammers. I mean, Spiritual Weapons.

:) That's awesome - there's a very granular range of arcane gishes (on the spectrum of martial to caster), but I don't see a lot of granularity in divine gishes. So I wondered if allowing eldritch knights this option would introduce an unknown element.

Thanks for the reply!!!

[stoutstien]

Would you keep the restrictions on spells known and evoc/abj spells in place? They're just picking their spells from the cleric list instead of the wizard list?

It probably doesn't break anything, but expect to see a lot of Spiritual Hammers. I mean, Spiritual Weapons.

I wouldn't be too worried about it. EK has a pretty busy bonus action to start with.

I probably consider it a slight downgrade.

[MaxWilson]

I wouldn't be too worried about it. EK has a pretty busy bonus action to start with.

I probably consider it a slight downgrade.

Me too. I'm not saying it's a balance problem--like you I consider it a downgrade--I just think it could get tedious. But I guess Shield and Absorb Elements can get tedious to watch too. : )

Tactical advice to a Clerical Knight: Sanctuary does not prevent you from attacking, it just breaks when you do attack. Since Sanctuary is a bonus action, you can Attack and then still cast Sanctuary, and repeat if needed the next round. I've seen Paladins of Devotion do that when facing lots of enemies.

Also, grapple + shove prone + sanctuary is a fun combo for grapplers. Even more fun if your DM agrees that grappling and shoving don't count as attacks by the PHB definition of attack (no attack roll, therefore not attacks, therefore don't break Sanctuary and are not blocked by Sanctuary), because then that whole section of the fight turns into something akin mud-wrestling. Grapples and shoves all over the place but no hitting or stabbing.

You can also stack Shield of Faith with Sanctuary.

[stoutstien]

This post is tempting me to dust off and update a PC I made for a short campaign back when it was just the PHB. Hill dwarf EK 12/ war cleric 8. Probably one of the most enjoyable characters I've made for 5e.

[JNAProductions]

On the one hand, I'd be careful with unintended interactions.

On the other hand, at 1/3rd casting, I don't see anything breaking that badly.

Try it out! Let us know how it goes.

[LudicSavant]

Hey all,

Quick question - if I changed the Eldritch Knight to use the cleric spell list instead of the wizard spell list, would that break anything? I might also change the spellcasting ability to Wisdom instead of Intelligence.

The main balance factors that are leaping to mind would be:
- Wis is a better stat than Int
- Abjuration / Evocation spells an EK would be interested in from the Cleric list include Healing Word, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith, PFG&E, Lesser Restoration, Warding Bond, Spiritual Weapon, Holy Weapon
- Spirit Guardians is going to be one of the non-school spell picks.
- However you won't get access to stuff like Shield, Absorb Elements, Shadow Blade, Booming Blade, or Greater Invisibility.
- Cleric has no Reaction spells at all.

[Sparky McDibben]

The main balance factors that are leaping to mind would be:
- Wis is a better stat than Int
- Abjuration / Evocation spells an EK would be interested in from the Cleric list include Healing Word, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith, PFG&E, Lesser Restoration, Warding Bond, Spiritual Weapon, Holy Weapon
- Spirit Guardians is going to be one of the non-school spell picks.
- However you won't get access to stuff like Shield, Absorb Elements, Shadow Blade, Booming Blade, or Greater Invisibility.
- Cleric has no Reaction spells at all.

Thanks for the feedback, Ludic! Honestly, this just makes me want to try this out more. A healing fighter who can use his spells to protect and buff their allies directly instead of themselves? Kind of sounds like a warlord. It wouldn't quite hit that mark, of course, but this doesn't sound like a bad chassis to use.

[Segev]

Thanks for the feedback, Ludic! Honestly, this just makes me want to try this out more. A healing fighter who can use his spells to protect and buff their allies directly instead of themselves? Kind of sounds like a warlord. It wouldn't quite hit that mark, of course, but this doesn't sound like a bad chassis to use.

Why not just play a Paladin?

I know it's not quite the same, but it's a half-caster instead of 1/3, still a full combat chassis, and is already designed to be the "divine fighter."

What do you want from Fighter/EK that going "Divine Knight" with this change will do better than playing a Paladin?

[jmartkdr]

Thanks for the feedback, Ludic! Honestly, this just makes me want to try this out more. A healing fighter who can use his spells to protect and buff their allies directly instead of themselves? Kind of sounds like a warlord. It wouldn't quite hit that mark, of course, but this doesn't sound like a bad chassis to use.

Holy warlord should get you the playstyle if not necessarily the flavor of a classic warlord.

[MaxWilson]

Thanks for the feedback, Ludic! Honestly, this just makes me want to try this out more. A healing fighter who can use his spells to protect and buff their allies directly instead of themselves? Kind of sounds like a warlord. It wouldn't quite hit that mark, of course, but this doesn't sound like a bad chassis to use.

Yeah, it should be fine. If it were going to be broken because of spells, Paladins would already be broken, because not only do they have most of the same spells as clerics, but they have MORE of them than your Clerical Knight will have, and they get to choose them dynamically (prepared casting instead of known spell casting).

Druid spell list would be more problematic though, despite the existence of Rangers.


Why not just play a Paladin?

I know it's not quite the same, but it's a half-caster instead of 1/3, still a full combat chassis, and is already designed to be the "divine fighter."

What do you want from Fighter/EK that going "Divine Knight" with this change will do better than playing a Paladin?

Maybe he wants to be an archer with lots of attacks? Paladins are terrible at ranged combat. Even if they invest in Dex they've only got 2 attacks, and AFAIK none of their good spells or features work on ranged attacks. E.g. Divine Smite, Improved Divine Smite, Wrathful Smite, Thunderous Smite are all explicitly melee weapon-only. (I guess Banishing Smite does work on ranged attacks--never noticed that before--but I don't consider it particularly good, just okay.)

[Sparky McDibben]

Why not just play a Paladin?

I know it's not quite the same, but it's a half-caster instead of 1/3, still a full combat chassis, and is already designed to be the "divine fighter."

What do you want from Fighter/EK that going "Divine Knight" with this change will do better than playing a Paladin?

Eh, it's mostly a conceptual space thing. Paladins, to me, feel incredibly powerful, but they're a conduit for other powers; their powers aren't innate to themselves. I'm looking to play someone who's not as "strong in the Force" as a paladin or cleric, and whose abilities are less about smiting evil, and more about making their team better. Moreover, I'm looking for someone who feels like they're getting by on just luck, wits, and skill, instead of phenomenal cosmic power. Also, the oaths are an additional roleplaying hook that don't quite play into this archetype. Am I making sense? I feel like I'm rambling...

[Joe the Rat]

I think it's worth testing out. Review the spells and see if Evok / Abjur keeps the feel, or if there are other school pairs that would make a better core. (I doubt it, but let's check.)

Wis-based is the standard for "divine" spells, and would allow better Cleric MC synergy. That said, Int is under-utilised, and there is room for a "knowledgeable divine" caster. Maybe not this one, though. (Divine Trickster Rogue Archetype?)

Call it a Templar.

[Segev]

Eh, it's mostly a conceptual space thing. Paladins, to me, feel incredibly powerful, but they're a conduit for other powers; their powers aren't innate to themselves. I'm looking to play someone who's not as "strong in the Force" as a paladin or cleric, and whose abilities are less about smiting evil, and more about making their team better. Moreover, I'm looking for someone who feels like they're getting by on just luck, wits, and skill, instead of phenomenal cosmic power. Also, the oaths are an additional roleplaying hook that don't quite play into this archetype. Am I making sense? I feel like I'm rambling...

I get where you're coming from, but how does giving the EK the cleric list not put you right back in this same position? Where is this Divine Knight getting his spells from?

I suspect it wouldn't be broken, so go for it. I just am not sure what the design goal is.

[Sparky McDibben]

I get where you're coming from, but how does giving the EK the cleric list not put you right back in this same position? Where is this Divine Knight getting his spells from?

I suspect it wouldn't be broken, so go for it. I just am not sure what the design goal is.

That's fair; neither am I. :) I'll let you all know how it plays out.

[paladinn]

This really is reminiscent of the BECMI and AD&D1e paladins. They had access to pretty much the entire cleric spell list. And in BECMI they were 1/3 casters too.

I'm assuming the DK would not be able to channel divinity/turn undead? Would you refluff Eldritch Strike as a Divine Smite? Would s/he be able to teleport?

There are a lot of fighter features that would benefit a "paladin" of this sort. I've been batting around the idea of a paladin as a fighter subclass.

[jas61292]

While I have never done this personally, I did once allow an Eldritch Knight to use the Druid list instead of the Wizard one. I even offered to let the player pick any two schools they wanted from the list instead of Abj/Evo, but they said nah and just stuck with those two. The guy ended up as a fun character, and certainly of an appropriate power level. I did keep Int as the casting stat, but I'm not sure how much that would change, balance wise. Wis is generally considered stronger, but I doubt that it would have significant effect.

Cleric is a bit different, with Spiritual Weapon being of particular note for a fighter. But I don't think it would be too strong or anything. I would just say to use caution, especially if you are considering allowing school adjustment. Just scan the options first and make sure there is nothing you are super worried about.

[MaxWilson]

This really is reminiscent of the BECMI and AD&D1e paladins. They had access to pretty much the entire cleric spell list. And in BECMI they were 1/3 casters too.

But in AD&D they don't even get first-level spells until level 9. Very different from 5E's Eldritch Knights and Paladins which are spellcasters almost right off the bat.