proofread my psion please

[newguydude1]

hopefully this wont be a complete failure like my artificer build especially since there is no rule lawyering in this build. please check for anything illegal or a way to improve what im doing. if you have a better level 1-4 strategy please share! feats at 12th and 15th level are the ones i grabbed because i couldnt think of anything better. also some of my power choices.

my dm employs multiclass penalties

race: warforged scout
alignment: true neutral
class: psion17
discipline: egoist
ability scores - 25 point buy
8-4 str
8+2 dex
13 con
16 int
16-2 wis
8-2 cha

retraining
6: elemental envoy -> azure talent <- essential, only mandatory retrain
7: matter agitation -> ectoprotection

feats
flaw: noncombatant
flaw: pathetic: strength
1 psicrystal affinity
1 linked power
1 metapower:synchronicity & linked power
1 elemental Envoy, 6 azure talent
3 expanded knowledge: astral construct
5 psicrystal containment
6 midnight augmentation
9 metamorphic transfer
10 psionic meditation
12 expanded knowledge: dimensional anchor
15 expanded knowledge: fate of one
15 expanded knowledge: precognition, greater

psicrystal feats
1 wild talent
3 overchannel
6 boost construct
9 extend power
12 skill focus: umd
15 focused skill user: use magic device, concentration, craft (sculpting)

powers
1st
1 matter Agitation, 7 ectoprotection
1 intertial armor
1 synchronicity
2 thicken skin
2 vigor

2nd
3 animal affinity
3 energy adaptation, specified
4 elemental steward
4 psionic repair damage
6 bestow power
6 feat leech

3rd
5 project quori spirit
5 solicit psicrystal
8 dispel psionics

4th
7 metamorphosis
7 dimension door, psionic
8 psychic reformation

5th
9 anticipatory strike
9 major creation, psionic
10 plane shift, psionic
10 power resistance
12 true seeing, psionic

6th
11 temporal acceleration
12 psionic restoration

7th
13 soul crystal
14 fission
14 planar champion
16 moment of prescience, psionic

8th
15 mind blank
16 teleport, psionic greater

9th
17 reality revision



strategy
the box
construction
i use a geodite with its craft(stonemasonry)+7 and stone burrow speed to create a box out of stone. its basically 4 tower shields fused together and half a tower shield on the up and bottom.
the box has 4 flaps, one on each wall. each flap is 1ftx1ft, opens only inward, and has a 12lb bar behind it.
1 flap is actually 3ftx1.5ft so i can squeeze in and out of it
steel tower shields are 100lbs (races of stone)
heavy plate armor is 100lbs and gives 9ac
dwarven stone plate armor is 80lbs and gives 9ac (arms and equipment guide)
so from this we can gather that stone "tower shields" would weigh 80lbs
tower shields are 2 inches thick
divide by 2 for a smaller character
divide by 2 for 1 inch thickness
weight of box = 5 x 20lbs x inch of thickness = 100lbs x inch of thickness
hp of box = 15 x inch of thickness (only one side. dm ruled one side is destroyed box is destroyed)

in combat
psicrystal uses its move action to unbar a flap by pushing the bar <---- 1ft
i use my move action to open the flap
i manifest synchronicity + linked power + a summon power
i drop the flap as a free action
psicrystal uses its standard action to bar the flap by pushing the bar ----> 1ft

the box gives me total concealment and total cover to everything so i am immune to all weapon attacks, spells, aoes, everything until the box is destroyed.

level 1-4: geodite carry
i use share powers to manifest every single buff i have access to to make my geodite as strong as possible. and he kills everything for me.
at level 4 after intertial armor, thicken skin, animal affinity, and vigor he has
melee +8 attack (1d4+7) damage
ac 26 (17base + 1elemental envoy + 2thicken skin + 6intertial armor)
hp 36 (16 base + 20 vigor)
dr 5/-

i use synchronicity + linked power + metapower to reduce the cost of all powers by 1 (min 1), and give my geodite an extra standard action a round.

extreme strategy: whack-a-mole
i manifest matter agitation, geodite grabs me and burrows into the earth. once my target is dead he burrows up with me at a random location, i manifest another matter agitation, and he burrows back into the ground until all enemies are dead.

extreme strategy: dragged into the grave
geodite grapples a creature, then drags the creature 5ft into the ground where it dies of suffocation.

carry weight of geodite is 172.5lbs so my box is 1inch thick and weighs 100lbs + 48lbs (bars) = 148lbs.
which means the box has 15hp and 8 hardness.
i weigh 139lbs
so the geodite will drag me inside the box around. and in difficult terrain he will carry the box while i walk. he will use his telepathy to talk with me at all times and if things go bad he will burrow into my box, grab me, and burrow both of us into the ground for retreat.

if geodite dies i get a new one. according to comp psi errata its 12 hours

level 5: project quori spirit
project quori spirit summons a tsoreva quori with duration: concentration. meaning it can last all day if i want to.
and thats the strategy. have a tsoreva quori (sometimes supported by my geodite) solo everything.
carry weight of tsoreva quori is 230lbs. so the total carry weight is 402.5lbs. so my box is 3 inches thick and weighs 300lbs + 48 = 348lbs.
which means the box has 45hp and 8 hardness.

tsoreva quori has decent skills like +10 to bluff, intimidate, and spot.

extreme strategy: whack-a-mole quori
i manifest project quori spirit, geodite grabs me and burrows into the ground. and we stay underground traveling 20ft a round until the quori is dead, who communicates with us with telepathy at all times. if he dies we burrow up into a safe spot, summon another quori, and go back into the earth.

level 6-7: astral construct full power
geodite is retrained out for azure talent. i start using a psicrystal.
i regenerate power ponts. synchronicity linked to augmented bestow power costs 1 + 6 = 7pp for 4pp next turn. 7 - 2 (metapower) - 2 (midnight augmentation with 2 essentia in it) = 3.
so i spend 3pp this turn to get 4 pp next turn.
so every 2 psionic focus i expend i get 1 pp.
so on average i gain 0.5pp a round if i do nothing else.

overchannel + metapower + midnight augmentation lets me augment a power 3pp more than its limit. 6+3 = 9.
so thats a 5th level astral construct and 2 tsoreva quoris. i have these 3 minions kill everything for me.

i use feat leech on my psicrystal to get overchannel and boost construct.

i have 2 tsoreva quoris carrying me around. so the total carry weight is 460lbs. so my box is 4 inches thick and weighs 400lbs + 48 = 448lbs.
which means the box has 60hp and 8 hardness.

i use elemental steward power to summon geodites to remake my box if damaged or destroyed.

level 8: nothing special
upgraded to 6th level astral construct with overchannel getting an additional ml.

level 9: thoon army

i use overchannel and metamorphosis on myself to turn myself into a madcrafter of thoon. and use share powers to turn my psicrystal into a madcrafter of thoon as well.
i use metamorphic transfer to use launch spawn 3 times to spawn 3 scythers of thoon or stormclouds of thoon.
scythers can only be commanded telepathically by a creature of thoon so my psicrystal uses its telepathic speech ability while in madcrafter form to program the scythers.
stormclouds of thoon are intelligent but obey blindly and dont understand what thoon is, so they think my pc is an agent of the true thoon and obey him blindly.
usual anti hack stuff. scythers have default behavior, psicrystal has admin password that overrides all, stormclouds have user password which cant override admin commands and only a few scythers obey that user password, etc.
so i start amassing a scyther and stormcloud army for free, 3 a day, for stuff. like opening a shop and selling them.

upgraded to 7th level astral construct. i no longer use quoris because scythers are stronger and dont require concentration. i have 2 scythers and 1 stormcloud with me at all times. stormcloud uses its telepathy to communicate the outside world to me. if he dies i summon quoris for the rest of the day to fulfill this role. stormcloud does not engage in combat unless box is threatened.

i use linked power to reduce the manifesting time of major creation to 1 round to be able to create special weapons in combat to give to my astral construct to overcome dr.

box is still 4inches thick, it could be thicker but i dont want to be immobile if one of my scythers die. in emergencies i make box out of major creation, but its not reliable since major creation can be dispelled.

level 10-12: nothing special
astral construct upgraded to 8th level at level 11.
my power point regeneration triples to 1.5pp a round thanks to psionic meditation speeding up psionic focus acquirement.

level 13: soul crystal
i make soul crystals of dimensional anchor and give them to my party members and stormclouds for those goddamn annoying greater teleport sla monsters.
i also make soul crystals of personal powers like intertial armor or metamorphosis and give them to my party members as well.

astral construct is upgraded to 9th level, which is the max.

extreme strategy: i make an army of stormclouds, give them all an overchannel boosted soul crystal of astral construct, and summon an army of astral constructs. if something can be solved by murdering everything, i can solve it.

level 14: ruin elemental
i manifest double extended metamorphosis into a phasm. unlike metamagic you can stack the same metapsionic feat on the same power. duration is 1 hour and 4 minutes.
i use metamorphic transfer to use its alternate form ability to turn into a ruin chanter.
i use its call ruin elemental ability to spend 1 hour creating a ruin elemental. cooldown is 1/week

so every week instead of 3 thoon constructs, i make a ruin elemental.

i also get access to dream master quori to help my astral construct.

level 15-16: nothing special

level 17: simulacrum
reality revision can create nonpsionic items upto 25000gp cost.
this means i can make a wand of improvisation at cl33
or a scroll of simulacrum at cl37.
so i just make a wand of improvisation, scroll of surge of fortune, and then use all 3 to umd that scroll of simulacrum.
this upto 37hd simulacrum supported by 9th level astral constructs is my endgame strategy.
fate of one is used to reroall a 1 on the umd. precognition greater is used to umd the wand easier.

and thats it.

btw, all comments regarding the box, please post in this thread
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?611195-how-are-you-supposed-to-defend-yourself-without-a-box

i want this thread to be about the psion and not the box. thanks.

[redking]

level 17: simulacrum
reality revision can create nonpsionic items upto 25000gp cost.
this means i can make a wand of improvisation at cl33
or a scroll of simulacrum at cl37.
so i just make a wand of improvisation, scroll of surge of fortune and divine insight, and then use all 3 to umd that scroll of simulacrum.
this upto 37hd simulacrum supported by 9th level astral constructs is my endgame strategy.
fate of one is used to reroall a 1 on the umd. precognition greater is used to umd the wand easier.

Will this fly at your table? If I was the DM, I would throw the book at you.


Create a nonpsionic item of up to 25,000 gp in value.
Create a psionic item, or add to the powers of an existing psionic item (see XP cost below).

The psionics material doesn't really make reference to magic, nor does the wish spell make reference to psioncs.


Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value.
Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.

You've got a tortured interpretation of reality revision in your build. Ask your DM.

[newguydude1]

The psionics material doesn't really make reference to magic, nor does the wish spell make reference to psioncs.



You've got a tortured interpretation of reality revision in your build. Ask your DM.

i dont understand what you are saying.
magic item is not psionic item even under transparency. otherwise spellcasters can use psionic items.
reality revision makes a 25,000gp nonpsionic item. which includes magic item. magic item is nonpsionic item.
cl37 simulacrum scroll costs less than 25,000gp.

if dm says psionic = magic item, then i just create the scroll of simulacrum directly. costs a bit more xp but doesnt really matter. i actually prefer this because my 18+ strategy that i didnt post here because it needlessly complicates things has me taking a dip in prc to get scribe scroll to make those scrolls directly.

which part is the tortured interpretation? could you explain a little more?

[redking]

i dont understand what you are saying.
magic item is not psionic item even under transparency. otherwise spellcasters can use psionic items.
reality revision makes a 25,000gp nonpsionic item. which includes magic item. magic item is nonpsionic item.

There is a thread about it here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?536281-Can-Reality-Revision-make-Magic-Items).

Basically, the 25000 limit refers to mundane items. Psionic powers do not generally make reference to magic.

[newguydude1]

There is a thread about it here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?536281-Can-Reality-Revision-make-Magic-Items).

Basically, the 25000 limit refers to mundane items. Psionic powers do not generally make reference to magic.

that thread says either magic = psionic under transparency which means i can create a magic item with no gp limit at a higher xp cost, or magic items =/= psionic items which means i can create magic items upto 25,000gp.

and in xph, the core book of psionics

They are considered magic weapons and thus are effective against damage reduction that requires a magic weapon to overcome

All your equipment, worn or carried, is similarly reduced by the power. Melee and projectile weapons deal less damage (see Table 2–3, page 28 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide). Other psionic or magical properties are not affected by this power.

you are still vulnerable to psionic or magical attacks that deal cold damage.

effects that enhance or improve natural weapons (such as the magic fang spell)

If the chosen locale is magically or psionically dark

thats not a complete list. i stopped at c.

psionic powers do make references to magic items (not just magic) constantly, if a psionic power can't affect magic items it explicitly says so, magic items are not psionic items even under transparency (and even if they were i wouldnt care), so im using reality revision correctly. its not a tortured interpretation. its a normal interpretation.

edit:
even reality revision makes a direct reference to magic

Duplicate any other power (but not a spell) of 6th level or lower, such as a psychic warrior power.
so if the power wanted to say mundane, it wouldve said mundane instead of nonpsionic.

[redking]

psionic powers do make references to magic items (not just magic) constantly, if a psionic power can't affect magic items it explicitly says so, magic items are not psionic items even under transparency (and even if they were i wouldnt care), so im using reality revision correctly. its not a tortured interpretation. its a normal interpretation.

Those examples refer to magic because of damage reduction and similar issues. When referring to "nonpsionic" the same terminology is used as the wish spell, except its "nonmagical". In the case of wish, nonmagical refers to mundane items. It doesn't allow you to create a psionic item of up to 25,000 gp in value.

As for reality revision, nothing in it suggests that you can even create a magical item with it, even if you were willing to pay the XP cost. And "create a nonpsionic item of up to 25,000 gp in value" means a mundane item, just like it does with the wish spell.

[newguydude1]

Those examples refer to magic because of damage reduction and similar issues. When referring to "nonpsionic" the same terminology is used as the wish spell, except its "nonmagical". In the case of wish, nonmagical refers to mundane items. It doesn't allow you to create a psionic item of up to 25,000 gp in value.

As for reality revision, nothing in it suggests that you can even create a magical item with it, even if you were willing to pay the XP cost. And "create a nonpsionic item of up to 25,000 gp in value" means a mundane item, just like it does with the wish spell.

if you are right


Alternatively, you can use up the power in an instant. You do this by modulating a sound into a one-time destructive impetus that shatters nonmagical/nonpsionic, unattended objects of crystal, glass, ceramics, or porcelain (vials, bottles, flasks, jugs, mirrors, and so forth) in the area

Unattended, nonpsionic, nonmagical object of nonliving

You can excite the structure of a nonpsionic, nonmagical object,

if nonpsionic is the same as nonmagical and both means mundane, why do we have powers that specify both nonmagical and nonpsionic separately? why do we have two words instead of one? why dont they use the word mundane? why does reality revision intentionally dont say nonmagical or mundane?

wish has an excuse. it came before psionics was ever in the system. but reality revision has no excuse. its in the same book that uses the word nonmagical in power definitions. the powers that also use nonpsionic right beside nonmagical too.

also creatures

Against a psionic being that has no power points (such as a psionic character with an empty power point reserve) or a nonpsionic foe, your attack instead deals 2 points of Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma damage (your choice).

this doesnt work on magical creatures because nonpsionic means mundane?


You “grumble” psychically (which both psionic and nonpsionic creatures can detect),

magical creatures cant detect this grumble?

[redking]

wish has an excuse. it came before psionics was ever in the system. but reality revision has no excuse. its in the same book that uses the word nonmagical in power definitions. the powers that also use nonpsionic right beside nonmagical too.

Because its a copy paste from the wish spell.

I'd suggest that you ask your DM to see if he'll allow it. Rule 0 always applies, so if he lets you do it, it won't be a problem.

There is also a pitfall in trying to create an item (whether psionic or magical) of a greater manifester level than your reality revision. You are manifesting at 17 ML, you want to produce an effect at 37 ML for your simulacrum scroll.


You can try to use reality revision to produce more powerful effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. The manifestation may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.

[newguydude1]

Because its a copy paste from the wish spell.

minor creation is also a copy and paste from the minor creation spell. how come that has the word nonpsionic and nonmagical?


I'd suggest that you ask your DM to see if he'll allow it. Rule 0 always applies, so if he lets you do it, it won't be a problem.

hes a ruled as written, but gentleman agreement guy. he shows no leniency but he also doesnt house rule broken things and asks us just not to do it. and he doesnt have a problem here. a normal spellcaster using wish can create magic items of uncapped caster level so a psion doing the same thing doesnt matter to him.

but if it doesnt work in the rules he will disallow it so i need to make sure this is iron clad. thanks to you i think it is because i found a lot of examples to use in a similar argument in the future.

proofread is always good on this forum.


There is also a pitfall in trying to create an item (whether psionic or magical) of a greater manifester level than your reality revision. You are manifesting at 17 ML, you want to produce an effect at 37 ML for your simulacrum scroll.

im using a safe option.
"You can try to use reality revision to produce more powerful effects than these". creating a 25,000gp nonpsionic item is not a more powerful effect than these.

[Emperor Tippy]

Technically, @newguydude1 is correct. Reality Revision can create magical items of up to 25,000 GP in value for 5,000 XP (regardless of how much XP that item should cost to create) and Wish can do the same for Psionic items.

Even under Magic-Psionic Transparency, Magic and Psionic items are technically different things and Reality Revision specifies nonpsionic (which a magical item is).

The reason you don't tend to see this come up is that any DM that is going to allow it (and this is absolutely not Rules as Intended) is also very likely going to allow any of the (many) better ways of getting free Wish's.

I mean Greater Metamorphosis into a Zodar to Wish up a Scroll of Gate at CL ten billion, shift forms into Lilitu for Item Use, use the Gate Scroll, and then just abuse all of your Solars for free wishes. It costs 200 XP instead (or just buy a scroll of shapechange). Or just abuse form shifting to refresh your Zodar wish after ever use. Then there are Simulacrum's of Solars, for 1/day free Wish's.

[redking]

minor creation is also a copy and paste from the minor creation spell. how come that has the word nonpsionic and nonmagical?

Because WotC editing is patchy at best.

Anyway, maybe your DM is a wacky dude that will allow it. If so, great. But if he's a reasonable DM, he'll take one look at this and tell you this isn't rules as intended.

[newguydude1]

The reason you don't tend to see this come up is that any DM that is going to allow it (and this is absolutely not Rules as Intended) is also very likely going to allow any of the (many) better ways of getting free Wish's.

you cant say that. minor creation is a copy paste of the spell yet the word nonmagical made it into there, like matter agitation and control sound. so the intentional exclusion of the world nonmagical is as much ground for "intention" as claiming the writers forgot to include it yet not forgetting to include it into the previously mentioned 3 powers.


I mean Greater Metamorphosis into a Zodar to Wish up a Scroll of Gate at CL ten billion, shift forms into Lilitu for Item Use, use the Gate Scroll, and then just abuse all of your Solars for free wishes. It costs 200 XP instead (or just buy a scroll of shapechange). Or just abuse form shifting to refresh your Zodar wish after ever use. Then there are Simulacrum's of Solars, for 1/day free Wish's.

1. this isnt a free wish. im spending 15,000xp to get a one time use of this cl37 scroll.
2. spellcasters casting wish as directly intended can directly create a cl37 scroll of simulacrum with 12918xp so what im doing is not even close to free wishes.
3. i can get free wish at 13. metamorphosis into phasm, metamorphic transfer alternate form into zodar, metamorphic transfer wish. but i didnt include that in the first post because this game is nowhere near that level of cheese.

why are you guys freaking out over this?

[redking]

1. this isnt a free wish. im spending 15,000xp to get a one time use of this cl37 scroll.

I thought you are getting the scroll for 5000XP because it is worth less than 25,000 GP?

[newguydude1]

I thought you are getting the scroll for 5000XP because it is worth less than 25,000 GP?

i forgot i cant stack divine insight and surge of fortune

5000xp for the wand of improvisation at cl33
5000xp for the scroll of surge of fortune at cl9 (scroll has 22 surge of fortunes on it)
5000xp for the scroll itself
my umd is 9 at that level. 9+4(precognition, greater)-2(my 6 charisma score)+2(animal affinity)+2 (focused skill user) = 15. decent chance of hitting that dc20 to umd a wand.
a single cast of improvisation gives me a boost of +16 to my umd for the next 4 skill checks.
dc29 surge of fortune is hit-able (16 + 9 + 4 - 2 + 2 + 2) = +31 to my roll
activating both gives me a umd roll of 20 + 16 + 9 + 4 - 2 + 2 + 2 = 51.
i just realized i can also give my psicrystal skill focus:umd, adding that to my build for a total umd check of 54.

54-20 = 34. the maximum highest cl scroll i can activate at level 17 is cl34.

[sorcererlover]

Anyway, maybe your DM is a wacky dude that will allow it. If so, great. But if he's a reasonable DM, he'll take one look at this and tell you this isn't rules as intended.

I disagree. A reasonable DM won't be making a fuss over this.

25,000gp magic items are nothing at 17th level. You're supposed to have 340,000gp. So spending 5,000xp to get 25,000gp is far from ideal.
Spell-To-Power Erudite turns all spells into powers. So the OP can just create a power stone of simulacrum on the Erudite spell list.
And at the end of it all what the OP doing here is no more powerful than what a 17th level wizard typically does. So it's not a balance issue either.

So only a wacky DM would to try to change the meaning of the clear, well defined, and extensively used word: nonpsionic to deny the player something other player characters of equal level are fully capable of doing.

I mean, it's not a balance issue (other wizards do it easily), it's not a legal issue (as newguydude1 proved without a doubt with his mountain of examples), so what is the issue about Reality Revision creating magic items that warrants a "reasonable" DM to house rule it down?

[redking]

I disagree. A reasonable DM won't be making a fuss over this.

25,000gp magic items are nothing at 17th level. You're supposed to have 340,000gp. So spending 5,000xp to get 25,000gp is far from ideal.
Spell-To-Power Erudite turns all spells into powers. So the OP can just create a power stone of simulacrum on the Erudite spell list.
And at the end of it all what the OP doing here is no more powerful than what a 17th level wizard typically does. So it's not a balance issue either.

Not just any scroll. A 37 CL scroll of simulacrum, so he can produce an 37 HD epic level simulacrum. A 17th level wizard can't do that. A 17th level wizard can make a 17 HD simulacrum at best.

How does the character specify a "37 CL scroll of simulacrum" without metagaming? How does a reality revision, manifested at 17 ML produce a 37 CL scroll, even if you were paying for it with extra XP? Why stop at 37 CL scroll of simulacrum, why not 100 CL?


You can try to use reality revision to produce more powerful effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. The manifestation may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.

A reasonable DM will put a stop to this because this one player will destroy the enjoyment of the rest of the group.

[sorcererlover]

Not just any scroll. A 37 CL scroll of simulacrum, so he can produce an 37 HD epic level simulacrum. A 17th level wizard can't do that. A 17th level wizard can make a 17 HD simulacrum at best.

A Wizard can create a 37hd simulacrum using the exact same trick the OP is using.


Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.
...
When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.

The cost to create a 37 CL Scroll of Simulacrum with Wish is
spell level x caster level = 7x37 = 259xp
Double that to 518xp.
Add 5,000xp to make it 5,518xp.
Then finally add Simulacrum's xp cost of 3,700xp for a grand total of 9,218xp.

So by paying 9,218xp a Wizard casting Wish can create a 37 CL Scroll of Simulacrum. And then he uses one of his many, many skill boosting shenanigans to hit that UMD DC of 57 to create a 37hd simulacrum.


Why stop at 37 CL scroll of simulacrum, why not 100 CL?

A Psion has to stop at 37 CL because 38 CL costs more than 25,000gp.
7 x 38 x 25 + 3800 x 5 = 25,650gp

A Wizard on the other hand
7 x 100 x 2 + 10000 + 5000 = 16400xp
can pay 16,400xp while casting Wish to create a 100 CL Scroll of Simulacrum. So a wizard is definitely more powerful.

Extract Demonic Essence to halve the cost to 8200xp. To UMD this scroll he'll need a CL200 Wand of Improvisation. Which will cost
(750 x 1 x 100)/25 x 2 + 5000 = 11000xp.
Extract Demonic Essence to halve the cost to 5500xp.

So for a grand total of 13,700xp a Wizard can create a 100hd creature. Definitely, definitely more powerful than a Psion.


A reasonable DM will put a stop to this because this one player will destroy the enjoyment of the rest of the group.

See, now this is a different issue entirely. If a 37 CL simulacrum breaks the table, then both Wizard and Psion must tone it down, not just Psion. So you address this by telling the Psion that creating a 37hd creature will break the table and tell him to create something weaker. You don't address this by trying to lawyer a spell into something it's not.

Reality Revision can create magic items that cost less than 25,000gp.

[redking]

A Wizard can create a 37hd simulacrum using the exact same trick the OP is using.

Both a wizard and a psion can do this too (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?268501-3-5-Metamagic-Wish-Wishing-for-Infinite-Wishes). Wish/reality revision are subject to the most adjudication of any spell or power. The limitations of the spell/power are written in the description.


You can try to use reality revision to produce more powerful effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. The manifestation may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.

You look at the context of what is allowed and what is not. Then you examine the power of the reality revision itself, as manifested by this particular character - that is, manifester level 17. Asking the reality revision to create an effect more powerful than itself is surely dangerous, or will result in a partial fulfillment. Most likely, a 17 CL scroll of simulacrum.

[sorcererlover]

Both a wizard and a psion can do this too (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?268501-3-5-Metamagic-Wish-Wishing-for-Infinite-Wishes). Wish/reality revision are subject to the most adjudication of any spell or power. The limitations of the spell/power are written in the description.



You look at the context of what is allowed and what is not. Then you examine the power of the reality revision itself, as manifested by this particular character - that is, manifester level 17. Asking the reality revision to create an effect more powerful than itself is surely dangerous, or will result in a partial fulfillment. Most likely, a 17 CL scroll of simulacrum.

I don't think we're having a rule discussion here.


A reality revision can produce any one of the following effects.
...
Create a nonpsionic item of up to 25,000 gp in value.
...
You can try to use reality revision to produce more powerful effects than these.

If you try to produce and effect more powerful than creating a 25,000gp nonpsionic item, like creating a 100,000gp nonpsionic item, then the partial fulfillment stuff applies. But if you stay within the 25,000gp, you are not producing a "more powerful effect". You are producing "one of the following effects."

Look I agree with you that letting a PC bring a 37hd creature to life is too borked for most tables. So I agree that you should tell the player to make something weaker for the sake of the rest of the group. But d&d 3.5 is borked, there is a billion ways to break the table, and trying to twist rule text into resembling what you deem balanced to fix all one billion ways to break the table isn't the way to go. Imo you need to have long chat with the player OOC and leave the rule text alone.

So imo your response should be "Ok, you can do that but doing so will break the table, so please do something more inline with the group" instead of claiming that creating a nonpsionic item whose value is less than 25,000gp is somehow more than 25,000gp and results in invoking the partial fulfillment rules.

And I agree with you that the OP here should make a 17hd or lower creature. That is perfectly reasonable.

[newguydude1]

so thats it? nothing in the build is illegal?
no one has a better strategy for level 1-4?
no one has a strategy for level 15-16?
no one has a better feat choice for level 12 and 15?


Both a wizard and a psion can do this too (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?268501-3-5-Metamagic-Wish-Wishing-for-Infinite-Wishes). Wish/reality revision are subject to the most adjudication of any spell or power. The limitations of the spell/power are written in the description.

no they cant. theres no such thing as repeat power.

[sorcererlover]

I have a level 1-4 strategy for you.

1. Grapple the creature
2. Drag him 5ft into the ground by winning the grapple check.
3. Break Grapple and burrow out of there.

The creature will suffocate to death unless it has a teleport or a burrow speed.

[Psyren]

why are you guys freaking out over this?

No one is "freaking out" but it's very obvious that they meant "nonpsionic" to also mean "nonmagical."

If it's not obvious to you, and you're convinced your GM will allow it, then go for it - why do you care what a random message board thinks?

[sorcererlover]

No one is "freaking out" but it's very obvious that they meant "nonpsionic" to also mean "nonmagical."

If it's not obvious to you, and you're convinced your GM will allow it, then go for it - why do you care what a random message board thinks?

{Scrubbed}

And no, you're wrong. The term "nonmagical" is quite prevalent and used liberally through out many, many powers. I was surprised myself at how much psionic powers reference magic. And in 3 instances the term nonmagical was also used alongside nonpsionic. In addition, the powers also use the term "mundane" quite liberally. In fact in one instance they used all 3 together.

Graft Weapon
...
You attach any melee weapon you can use in one hand—mundane, psionic, or magical

From this it's actually very obvious to see that they intentionally wrote nonpsionic, didn't use the word mundane, and left out nonmagical so that Psionic characters can create lesser magic items.

{Scrubbed}

[Psyren]

And no, you're wrong. The term "nonmagical" is quite prevalent and used liberally through out many, many powers.

As I said, if that's how you/he want to rule it, go for it. I've got better things to do.

[JNAProductions]

redking was freaking out.

And no, you're wrong. The term "nonmagical" is quite prevalent and used liberally through out many, many powers. I was surprised myself at how much psionic powers reference magic. And in 3 instances the term nonmagical was also used alongside nonpsionic. In addition, the powers also use the term "mundane" quite liberally. In fact in one instance they used all 3 together.

From this it's actually very obvious to see that they intentionally wrote nonpsionic, didn't use the word mundane, and left out nonmagical so that Psionic characters can create lesser magic items.

So don't try to pass off your house rules as official intention because you know nothing about the authors of XPH.

You assume a lot more competency from WotC than I think is warranted.

[sorcererlover]

As I said, if that's how you/he want to rule it, go for it. I've got better things to do.

{Scrubbed}

[JNAProductions]

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How do you know that isn't the authorial intent? Do you know the authors? Can you get them to post in this thread, clear some stuff up?

[sorcererlover]

How do you know that isn't the authorial intent? Do you know the authors? Can you get them to post in this thread, clear some stuff up?

That is exactly my point. It is impossible to know author intent. Nonpsionic is a clearly defined,extremely prevalent, and unambiguous official d&d terminology that has been repeatedly used to refer to magical items and creatures. The rule text "Create a nonpsionic item of up to 25,000 gp in value." can't be more straightforward and direct. So why are we spending 27 posts arguing about a straightforward, direct, clearly defined, unambiguous ruling? Why does the burden of proof lie with the OP that nonpsionic is a typo?

If there was a Dysfunction I'd understand. Or great confusion like the rule text for fabricate. But here, everything is straightforward, direct, clearly defined, and unambiguous yet we are spending 27 posts quoting XPH to the death (actually only the OP is quoting it to the death, the otherside has provided NOTHING).

{Scrubbed}

[Psyren]

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How does "your GM's opinion of this is the one that matters" count as "giving the OP hell?"

Also, you forgot Tippy, who said the exact same thing.


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[sorcererlover]

How does "your GM's opinion of this is the one that matters" count as "giving the OP hell?"
{Scrubbed}


If it's not obvious to you

It's not obvious to him and me {Scrubbed}


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Also, you forgot Tippy, who said the exact same thing.
Right the guy who said spending 15,000xp to get a 25,000gp item is the same as getting free zodar wishes off of shapechange.

[magicalmagicman]

My 2 cents on the matter: it's about symmetry.
Magical, nonmagical
Psionic, nonpsionic.

Wish and Psionic are supposed to be able to create anything and everything. You are making reality your bitch with these spells. And that's why, in my opinion, the authors intentionally used symmetry to cover everything. Magical and nonmagical covers everything. Likewise Psionic and nonpsionic covers everything.

Which is why I think people claiming "obvious author intent" as their main argument should probably bring in another different argument or forever hold their peace.

[newguydude1]

{Scrubbed}

i showed this thread to my dm and he agreed with magicalmagicman. wish is supposed to be able to do anything including creating any item. because its freaking wish. the spell that lets gods and deities do whatever they want. and he agrees that the authors intentionally said nonpsionic and psionic item to encompass all items.

{Scrubbed} show rule text next time {Scrubbed} im not playing at your table. my dm is not dming your table. {Scrubbed} nonpsionic means nonpsionic, not mundane{Scrubbed}. show me rule text that {Scrubbed} that nonpsionic means mundane {Scrubbed}.

why did i have to spend so much time looking up rules to show that nonpsionic means nonpsionic. what is this. seriously. since when do i have to prove that a word means what it actually means.




I have a level 1-4 strategy for you.

1. Grapple the creature
2. Drag him 5ft into the ground by winning the grapple check.
3. Break Grapple and burrow out of there.

The creature will suffocate to death unless it has a teleport or a burrow speed.

thank you very, very much. quasits and imps were impossible to kill because of their fly speed an at will invisibility, dr, and 2 fast healing, but this did the job.
my geodite grabbed a quasit
quasit polymorphed into a wolf.
geodite won the grapple and dragged him into the earth. the end.

my geodite grabbed an imp
imp polymorphed into a boar
it was a long a grueling fight of boar imp taking attacks of opportunity and dealing enough damage to overcome the geodites dr, but eventually and finally my geodite won 3 grapple checks in a row and dragged the boar imp into the ground where he suffocated to death.

thank you for this strategy.

[Psyren]

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I wasn't the first, nor even the second one to make that point? :smallconfused:
{Scrubbed}


i showed this thread to my dm and he agreed with magicalmagicman.

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[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: asked and answered. Thread closed.