Warlocks-Can some one explain why they have Mystic Arcanum?

[Lans]

It seems like it goes against the rest of the class' spam abilities by effectively giving it high level spell slots in line with the rest of the high end casters. I've been playing one for a few months now and just noticed it, and it completely changes how I feel about the class.

[NecroDancer]

WotC didn’t want warlocks to have 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level spell slots that recharged on a short rest. So warlocks got arcanums instead.

[Luccan]

It's both better and worse than spell slots. Worse, because they can't eventually cast 2 6th and 7th level spells a day, better because it doesn't take slots at all. Also, I don't think they count against your spells known, so they're more like those invocations that let you cast a spell once a day, but higher level.

And they have it so that in theory they're on par with other full casters. Since that's all most Warlocks are (casters, that is), they'd be kinda bad without it, though I suppose in theory they wouldn't have to be if you designed around them never getting 9ths. But they're already dealing with a couple exceptions to the way other classes work, I don't think they needed to get much more complicated.

[Segev]

Mystic Arcana are weak compared to real spell slots. They can’t be upcast and they are locked to the one spell (so you can’t cast your sixth level one twice by giving up your seventh level one for the day).

This would not upset me as much as it does if the fluff didn’t try to convince you that the Patron is sharing some deep secret that unlocks power greater than other adventures know. Every full caster knows better “secrets.”

Maybe if they were automatically upcast to the highest level mystic arcanum you knew, that would help.

[Greywander]

Maybe if they were automatically upcast to the highest level mystic arcanum you knew, that would help.
And this would fit the existing model used by Pact Magic. It's strong, for sure, but I think it would still be limited by only getting one 9th level spell. A weaker spell upcast to 9th level isn't quite as impressive.

The downside is that it makes the spells that don't benefit from upcasting much worse picks. Mass Suggestion becomes very strong and easily edges out something like Eyebite.

[Luccan]

Mystic Arcana are weak compared to real spell slots. They can’t be upcast and they are locked to the one spell (so you can’t cast your sixth level one twice by giving up your seventh level one for the day).

This would not upset me as much as it does if the fluff didn’t try to convince you that the Patron is sharing some deep secret that unlocks power greater than other adventures know. Every full caster knows better “secrets.”

Maybe if they were automatically upcast to the highest level mystic arcanum you knew, that would help.

I'm not sure that would work much better. You'd either get basically 4 9th level slots, three of which are used for upcasts but that's still huge, or you'd only get 1 spell of 6th level or higher per day.

[Chaos Jackal]

WotC didn’t want warlocks to have 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level spell slots that recharged on a short rest. So warlocks got arcanums instead.

Most likely this.

It's probably because at 6th level spells start to get really nuts, at 7th they're bonkers, and so on. On top of that, a typical full caster only ever gets 2 6th or 7th level slots, and the second of each of those comes during the last levels of the game. In the warlock's case, they get their 3rd slot at the same level they get 6th level spells, so if higher level spells worked with Pact Magic, they'd have the potential of casting some really powerful spells more times at lv11 than any other caster at lv20, and that's without factoring the short rest recharge. Six or nine mass suggestions every day? Or forcecages? Later on eight or twelve 9ths? Yes, that means no lower level spells, but really, how many of them do you need when you can spam high ones?

Looking at features like Arcane Recovery brings back the same result. Recharging a 6th-level slot isn't something the system generally expects.

Pact Magic, at its core, is a scaling effect, and Mystic Arcanum comes into play just when you thought it was finally getting cool, to prevent potential insanity.

Of course, the timing is such that it can feel sour. You finally get that 3rd slot after slogging through the last parts of tier 2 on the same number of slots as you had at early tier 1, but that's all you get, the extra slot. No more scaling for you.

And unlike Pact Magic, which can be better or worse than regular spellcasting depending on the game, Mystic Arcanum is flat out worse than regular spellcasting. Its only advantage is that Arcanum spells don't count towards your total number of spells known, so in effect you get 19 spells, rather than 15. But Arcanum cannot be changed, and can only be of a specific level (you can't pick a second 7th-level spell at 15, for example) so whatever you pick, you'd better like it, because you're stuck with it for the rest of the game, however short that might be. It doesn't even give slots, so it severely limits your flexibility. You cannot upcast Arcanum spells, so you're never gonna get two casts of your only 6th-level spell in a day, no matter what. You also cannot upcast anything non-Arcanum beyond 5th level, so your major image can never be concentrationless, and your counterspells are only ever gonna autocounter 5ths. The fact that a warlock's selection of 6ths is quite mediocre and 8ths are pretty bad is just icing in the cake. If a DM allowed me to pick two out of Forcecage, Crown of Stars and Plane Shift and completely forego an 8th-level pick, I'd do it.

In short, Arcanum is there to prevent zany scenarios, but with its timing and comparative lack of power, I can definitely see why it can change your perception of the class.

[Ashrym]

Because the class was inspired by the AEDU pattern converted to 5e and those are dailies. The E are the short rest recovery slots and the have a lot of at-will ability in the invocations.

Mystic Arcanum is definitely more restricted than spell slots, but the spell slots recovering on a short rest for high level slots like that becomes problematic. Spell recovery is limited to spells below 6th level as a general rule.

The high level spells versus Arcanum favors the spells, but invocations are where we the class's strength.

[Tanarii]

Because it's a full caster class so it needs spells up to 9th level. But giving it short rest max level spells past level 5 would be too powerful when full casters one get one (or two at very high levels) of each spell level.

A warlock with 9 6th level spells per day at level 11 would be ridiculous.

[Temperjoke]

Personally, I tend to view the Mystic Arcanum as something along the lines of Eldritch Invocations, it's a power that doesn't use up your normal resources with it's own conditions to go along with it. Due to the potential power, these abilities have more restrictions than normal invocations. That's how I mentally roleplay it anyways. If you think it's too restrictive, then you could modify them to recharge on a short rest instead of a long rest, or make them material component free, or give the warlock more uses at a cost of a spell slot for each use. Or whatever you want to do. Admittedly, the list of spells ain't great to pick from, even with XGtE in the mix.

[WaroftheCrans]

It seems like it goes against the rest of the class' spam abilities by effectively giving it high level spell slots in line with the rest of the high end casters. I've been playing one for a few months now and just noticed it, and it completely changes how I feel about the class.

How did it completely change how you feel? Does it seem too powerful, or not powerful enough? Or does it just not mesh with the class in your opinion? What were your expectations that it disappointed?

[Chronos]

I understand why you only get one of each level, but I think they should have at least made them true slots, so you could use them for upcasting. That is, at 11, you'd gain one sixth-level slot, and one spell known of up to 6th level, at 13th, you'd gain one seventh-level slot and a spell known of up to 7th level, and so on. It'd still be a little below what normal spellcasters get, since you'd never get a second slot of 6 or 7, and you'd know fewer high-level spells, but it'd at least be a little more flexibility.

[Zetakya]

It is a problem occasionally when there are no spells at a particular level that are appropriate for the character. It's also somewhat annoying that Wizards can upcast Summon Fiendish Spirit but Fiendlocks can't.

[Luccan]

I understand why you only get one of each level, but I think they should have at least made them true slots, so you could use them for upcasting. That is, at 11, you'd gain one sixth-level slot, and one spell known of up to 6th level, at 13th, you'd gain one seventh-level slot and a spell known of up to 7th level, and so on. It'd still be a little below what normal spellcasters get, since you'd never get a second slot of 6 or 7, and you'd know fewer high-level spells, but it'd at least be a little more flexibility.

I think the trade off that all your spell slots are fifth level at no cost is fajr. I'm not upcasting my spells beyond 5th most of the time anyway, since you get so few slots of higher levels

[KorvinStarmast]

It's also somewhat annoying that Wizards can upcast Summon Fiendish Spirit but Fiendlocks can't. yeah, that's kinda weird

[Ashrym]

It is a problem occasionally when there are no spells at a particular level that are appropriate for the character. It's also somewhat annoying that Wizards can upcast Summon Fiendish Spirit but Fiendlocks can't.

If you wanted summon fiendish spirit in as an Arcanum in a higher level slot I would definitely allow that if I were your DM.

Mystic Arcanum is an appropriate level spell from the warlock spell list. It doesn't state a spell from the specific spell level list. For example, charm person cast in a 7th level slot is a 7th level warlock spell in that context. If the player wanted to take a 7th level slot charm person for the 7th level Arcanum there's no reason to disallow it.

[Segev]

If you wanted summon fiendish spirit in as an Arcanum in a higher level slot I would definitely allow that if I were your DM.

Mystic Arcanum is an appropriate level spell from the warlock spell list. It doesn't state a spell from the specific spell level list. For example, charm person cast in a 7th level slot is a 7th level warlock spell in that context. If the player wanted to take a 7th level slot charm person for the 7th level Arcanum there's no reason to disallow it.

That's definitely a house rule, but not one I'd do other than applaud a DM for allowing.

One way to customize a smooth progression of Illusionist would be to replace the Patron powers at 6 and 14 with the Illusionist School at those levels, then give the Warlock major image as a 6th level Mystic Arcanum, and maybe mirage arcane as his 7th level one. This would probably work just fine in a single game, but I wouldn't recommend it as a universal substitution. It certainly eliminates any reason to go Illusionist over Warlock.

[Ashrym]

That's definitely a house rule, but not one I'd do other than applaud a DM for allowing.

One way to customize a smooth progression of Illusionist would be to replace the Patron powers at 6 and 14 with the Illusionist School at those levels, then give the Warlock major image as a 6th level Mystic Arcanum, and maybe mirage arcane as his 7th level one. This would probably work just fine in a single game, but I wouldn't recommend it as a universal substitution. It certainly eliminates any reason to go Illusionist over Warlock.

I don't think it's actually a house rule. RAW the Arcanum needs to be a spell from the warlock spell list and has to be the correct level spell. A lower level spell in a higher level slot meets both requirements.

[Chaos Jackal]

I don't think it's actually a house rule. RAW the Arcanum needs to be a spell from the warlock spell list and has to be the correct level spell. A lower level spell in a higher level slot meets both requirements.

Except the spell in question isn't in fact that level until a slot of that level is used for it, so when looking for an option it's a lower level spell and thus unavailable. Even if you could pick it though, Mystic Arcanum doesn't give a spell slot. It explicitly states you cast without using a spell slot. Since there's no spell slot to spend, there's no upcasting.

Not that I'd mind. It's a nice houserule. I could finally use major image properly.

[Segev]

Except the spell in question isn't in fact that level until a slot of that level is used for it, so when looking for an option it's a lower level spell and thus unavailable. Even if you could pick it though, Mystic Arcanum doesn't give a spell slot. It explicitly states you cast without using a spell slot. Since there's no spell slot to spend, there's no upcasting.

Not that I'd mind. It's a nice houserule. I could finally use major image properly.

Well - despite my having pointed out that you can make a better Illusionist progression out of Warlock if you make that change than the Illusionist gets as a wizard - you COULD play an Illusionist Wizard; at level 11, you get to use major image properly, as you put it. It is technicaly an advantage the wizard has over Warlock, which is one reason to play an Illusionist Wizard instead of a Warlock with Misty Visions.

[Ashrym]

Except the spell in question isn't in fact that level until a slot of that level is used for it, so when looking for an option it's a lower level spell and thus unavailable. Even if you could pick it though, Mystic Arcanum doesn't give a spell slot. It explicitly states you cast without using a spell slot. Since there's no spell slot to spend, there's no upcasting.

Not that I'd mind. It's a nice houserule. I could finally use major image properly.

The Arcanum of that level is being used for it.

I was looking for a reference indicating the spell does not count until it's actually cast at that level and could not. Seems a bit nitpicky to me, lol, and more a ruling instead of a rule implied by the upcasting process.

Side note, I noticed Arcanum can be cast once without a spell slot, implying they can be cast again using a spell slot but I'm not sure off the top of my head where the slot might come from. That might be worth checking out.

I'm still letting players select upcast spells for Arcanum regardless. Debating whether it's a house rule or not won't change that. ;-)

[Segev]

The Arcanum of that level is being used for it.

I was looking for a reference indicating the spell does not count until it's actually cast at that level and could not. Seems a bit nitpicky to me, lol, and more a ruling instead of a rule implied by the upcasting process.

Side note, I noticed Arcanum can be cast once without a spell slot, implying they can be cast again using a spell slot but I'm not sure off the top of my head where the slot might come from. That might be worth checking out.

I'm still letting players select upcast spells for Arcanum regardless. Debating whether it's a house rule or not won't change that. ;-)

A spell is of a particular level.

A spell can be case from a slot of a level higher than its own.

Some spells, when cast from slots higher than the minimum, get additional benefits.

Nowhere do the rules say that a spell cast from a slot higher than the minimum required is a higher-level spell than it is listed as. A magic missile cast from a 9th level spell slot is still a 1st-level spell.

[Tanarii]

I was looking for a reference indicating the spell does not count until it's actually cast at that level and could not.
PHB page 201

CASTING A SPELL AT A HIGHER LEVEL
When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is ofa higher level than the spell, the spell assumes the higher level for that casting.

It doesn't become a higher level spell until you cast a spell, and it needs to use a slot. In other words it is a temporary boost in the spells level at the time of casting.

Regardless of that I support the idea as a house rule.

[Damon_Tor]

To the OP: 5e fairly consistently treats 6-9th level spells differently than 1-5th. Arcane recovery can't recover 6+ slots. Flexible casting cannot produce 6+slots. It thus makes perfect sense that the warlock's ability to recover spellslots on a short rest would be similarly constrained.

[Ashrym]

PHB page 201

CASTING A SPELL AT A HIGHER LEVEL
When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is ofa higher level than the spell, the spell assumes the higher level for that casting.

It doesn't become a higher level spell until you cast a spell, and it needs to use a slot. In other words it is a temporary boost in the spells level at the time of casting.

Regardless of that I support the idea as a house rule.

I can see the interpretation. Still seems to be nitpicking to me, though. I wouldn't have thought twice about using a higher slotted spell as an Arcanum option. It allows spells made to be cast in a higher level spell slot useable to the extent designed while still restricting the Arcanum compared to regular slots.

It's the kind of thing hard to disallow other than for the sake of a technicality.

[RSP]

We’ve been playing you can chose lower level spells, upcasted to Arcanum. It helps with the feel of the class, depending on play style, and with what I believe is a limited class list.

Having the same 6 choices for each of 7th and 8th level is odd when you think of the amount of diversity in Warlock you can have between pacts and patrons. Allowing the upcasted spells means a conjuring a Warlock can now conjure better (like level 7 Conjure Fey) or, if you really like retribution builds and more frontline staying power, Arcanum AoA on your Bladelock.

Major Image, in my opinion, is a fantastic choice for level 6 Arcanum, for permanent, non-Concentration illusions once a day.

Note: the upcasted spell is not an additional spell known, though, so the aforementioned Major Image as a 6th level Arcanum cannot be cast with Pact Magic unless it is also selected as a spell known.

[Lans]

How did it completely change how you feel? Does it seem too powerful, or not powerful enough? Or does it just not mesh with the class in your opinion? What were your expectations that it disappointed?

It doesn't mesh with what I thought the class was. Which is a class that spams it's abilities every encounter

[Chronos]

Quoth Ashrym:

Side note, I noticed Arcanum can be cast once without a spell slot, implying they can be cast again using a spell slot but I'm not sure off the top of my head where the slot might come from. That might be worth checking out.
Theoretically yes, but it couldn't possibly come up using standard rules. To have a Mystic Arcanum, you need to have at least 11 levels in warlock. To have a true 6th-level spell slot, you need to have at least 11 levels combined in standard spellcasting classes (i.e., not warlock). So you'd have to be either gestalt, or have a total of 22 levels.

[WaroftheCrans]

Theoretically yes, but it couldn't possibly come up using standard rules. To have a Mystic Arcanum, you need to have at least 11 levels in warlock. To have a true 6th-level spell slot, you need to have at least 11 levels combined in standard spellcasting classes (i.e., not warlock). So you'd have to be either gestalt, or have a total of 22 levels.

Does the boon of high magic work with Warlocks? By raw it would seem not, but if so, I guess you could.

Also, are boons considered standard rules?

[Dr. Cliché]

Because it's a full caster class so it needs spells up to 9th level. But giving it short rest max level spells past level 5 would be too powerful when full casters one get one (or two at very high levels) of each spell level.

A warlock with 9 6th level spells per day at level 11 would be ridiculous.

But what about at lv20?

[jmartkdr]

But what about at lv20?

The ability to cast true polymorph or power word kill or psychic scream 16 times in a single adventuring day isn't broken only because broken doesn't even being to capture how insanely unbalanced that would be.

[Dr. Cliché]

The ability to cast true polymorph or power word kill or psychic scream 16 times in a single adventuring day isn't broken only because broken doesn't even being to capture how insanely unbalanced that would be.

How is a Warlock casting Lv9 spells using Lv6 spell slots? :smallconfused:

[Segev]

How is a Warlock casting Lv9 spells using Lv6 spell slots? :smallconfused:

Magic?


...I'm sorry, I just HAD to.

[Tanarii]

But what about at lv20?
A level 20 warlock would be casting 12 spells per day at level 9.

Although of that I think about it, we can probably assume they'd have kept the 2 slots per short rest if they'd continue the scaling.

So 6 slots per LR on average, of (character level / 2, rounded up) spell level. 6 of 6 at 11, 6 of 9 at 17. Still broken IMO. Just not as broken.

Edit: actually maybe not. Since it's instead of 9 5th + 1 6th, and eventually 12 5th + 4 (6th to 9th). Hmmm. It might kinda work. I'd have to look at the SPE (Spell point equivalent). That wouldn't be the entire story necessarily, but it'd be a good baseline gauge.

[Chaos Jackal]

But what about at lv20?

Well, assuming that they get Pact Magic applied only to 6th-level spells and not, say, 9ths... still quite strong.

A warlock's 6th-level spell selection isn't amazing, but you'd have more upcasting of lower level spells (30hp AoA, concentrationless major image, better summoning, better counterspelling etc.) and you'd be able to do stuff like creating a horde of ghouls or mass suggesting the entire enemy army.

Would it be broken? Probably. The only thing that keeps it from going completely out of hand is the rather poor spell selection, but there's still some solid options there, or normally not solid options that become a lot more appealing if you can spam them.

[Luccan]

How is a Warlock casting Lv9 spells using Lv6 spell slots? :smallconfused:

So you're only bumping it up by a level, then?

[Tanarii]

Ah. My comment was supposed to be taken as continued scaling of the slots up to 9th instead of any arcanum. Thus my reference to them being full casters getting up to level 9 slots.

If it were 6th level slots instead of level 5 max, the question becomes if they get arcanum for 7-9 (in which case it's a straight power boost), or are we stripping them of full caster stays / arcanum in return?

6+7+8+9 in SP = 9+10+11+13 = 43 SP
That's actually a loss for a 18-24 SP point boost per day (9-12 spells per day from 5th to 6th), ultimately.

If they scaled up to 7th level spell slots but never got an 8th or 9th arcanum, it's 27-36 pts, so still eventually a loss.

[Lans]

Ah. My comment was supposed to be taken as continued scaling of the slots up to 9th instead of any arcanum. Thus my reference to them being full casters getting up to level 9 slots.

If it were 6th level slots instead of level 5 max, the question becomes if they get arcanum for 7-9 (in which case it's a straight power boost), or are we stripping them of full caster stays / arcanum in return?



I'd say ditch the arnanum and either find the balance point where it's short rest abilities aren't over shadowed or over powered. Whether its more 5th level slots or taking them up a level or 2 by 20

[Cry Havoc]

Mystic Arcana are weak compared to real spell slots. They can’t be upcast and they are locked to the one spell (so you can’t cast your sixth level one twice by giving up your seventh level one for the day).

This would not upset me as much as it does if the fluff didn’t try to convince you that the Patron is sharing some deep secret that unlocks power greater than other adventures know. Every full caster knows better “secrets.”

Maybe if they were automatically upcast to the highest level mystic arcanum you knew, that would help.


I allow Warlocks to expend an Arcanum of [level x] and instead cast a Warlock spell known or different Arcanum of that level or lower, as a spell of [level x].

Breaks nothing.

[Ashrym]

Theoretically yes, but it couldn't possibly come up using standard rules. To have a Mystic Arcanum, you need to have at least 11 levels in warlock. To have a true 6th-level spell slot, you need to have at least 11 levels combined in standard spellcasting classes (i.e., not warlock). So you'd have to be either gestalt, or have a total of 22 levels.

That's what I was saying. I have no idea how to pull it off. Epic boon of high magic requires an existing spell slot too, but possibly a custom boon.

It was just a thought that hit me when I was looking it over.