Throwing other players to kill swarms?

[magicalmagicman]

It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a -4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.


A thrown weapon has a maximum range of five range increments.


For each 200 pounds of an object’s weight, the object deals 1d6 points of damage, provided it falls at least 10 feet. Distance also comes into play, adding an additional 1d6 points of damage for every 10-foot increment it falls beyond the first (to a maximum of 20d6 points of damage)


a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.

So if we put all this together, a fighter can grab another PC who is at least 200lbs with all of his gear, throw him 50ft into the air, and deal 5d6 damage to the swarm and 4d6 damage to the PC + 1d6 nonlethal damage.

Did I miss anything?

edit: to clarify, I am throwing the PC into the air where he will then drop 50ft and deal falling object damage. No AC or attack roll required.

[Eldan]

Well, swarms can't be hit by anything that hits only one creature, only by area attacks. Sadly, thrown weapons have attack rolls and hit single creatures, so swarms are immune.

[Powerdork]

Objects aren't creatures, and in instances where there's any chance of confusing the two (namely: constructs, intelligent magic items, and objects under the effects of an animate objects spell), there's effort put in to clarifying how they act as an object and/or creature.

But if you get past that, the Equipment chapter of the Core Rulebook provides a rough guideline for weapon size, which explicitly calls out what the object size translates to.

Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.
A weapon’s size category isn’t the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon’s size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.

This scale tells us that a Medium object is comparable to a spear or other polearm sized for a human, or the greatsword that Amiri the iconic barbarian carries in her illustration on page 31 (which is as long as she is tall, but nowhere near the mass; it's a mere 8 pounds if it's anything close to a typical example of the weapon).

If anything, you'd probably count a dwarf corpse and gear totalling 200 lbs. as a Large or Huge object rather than Medium (since every size category is a doubling in each dimension, thus an octupling in volume).

[hamishspence]

Swarms that are immune to weapon damage, still take energy damage from weapons which have energy damage as a bonus:


https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swarm.htm

A weapon with a special ability such as flaming or frost deals its full energy damage with each hit, even if the weapon’s normal damage can’t affect the swarm.

And not all swarms are immune to weapon damage - a rat swarm, for example, takes half damage from slashing and piercing - but full damage from damage sources that are not either of those two types.

Nonweapon damage also works. Drop a swarm of nonflying creatures from a height, and they will take falling damage even if they're immune to weapon damage.

[Khedrac]

Well, swarms can't be hit by anything that hits only one creature, only by area attacks. Sadly, thrown weapons have attack rolls and hit single creatures, so swarms are immune.

If playing 3.5 that depends on the size of the component creatures - diminutive can be hit, fine cannot

[hamishspence]

If playing 3.5 that depends on the size of the component creatures - diminutive can be hit, fine cannot

Actually both Diminutive and Fine creature swarms come with Immune To Weapon Damage - it's only Tiny creature swarms that can be damaged with weapons.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#swarmSubtype

Traits
A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernable anatomy, so it is not subject to critical hits or flanking. A swarm made up of Tiny creatures takes half damage from slashing and piercing weapons. A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage. Reducing a swarm to 0 hit points or lower causes it to break up, though damage taken until that point does not degrade its ability to attack or resist attack. Swarms are never staggered or reduced to a dying state by damage. Also, they cannot be tripped, grappled, or bull rushed, and they cannot grapple an opponent.

A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.


Well, swarms can't be hit by anything that hits only one creature, only by area attacks. Sadly, thrown weapons have attack rolls and hit single creatures, so swarms are immune.

Weapons are not Effects. Throwing weapons, of any kind, work fine against Rat Swarms, though it works best if it's Bludgeoning Weapons.

[magicalmagicman]

Well, swarms can't be hit by anything that hits only one creature, only by area attacks. Sadly, thrown weapons have attack rolls and hit single creatures, so swarms are immune.

I think there is a miscommunication here. I throw the PC 50ft into the air, not at the swarm. Then the 200lb PC drops and deals falling damage to the swarm. No AC or attack roll required.

If a 10ftx10ft object drops on top of 4 PCs, all of them get hit. So falling objects are an area attack that doesn't hit a creature.


Nonweapon damage also works. Drop a swarm of nonflying creatures from a height, and they will take falling damage even if they're immune to weapon damage.

Exactly. I'm dropping a PC on the swarm for nonweapon damage.

[Powerdork]

Again, creatures aren't objects. If you wanted to actually pull this off, you'd have to render your fellow PC a corpse first, and they'd probably have to be massively smaller than you (if you haven't found effects to help ease size difference issues).

[magicalmagicman]

Again, creatures aren't objects. If you wanted to actually pull this off, you'd have to render your fellow PC a corpse first, and they'd probably have to be massively smaller than you (if you haven't found effects to help ease size difference issues).

Hey that's a thought! Wait until a swarm kills a PC. Then throw his corpse. Less party drama.

If a medium sized object becomes a medium sized (therefore two-handed) improvised weapon then the medium sized creature corpse also becomes a medium sized two-handed improvised weapon.

The rules you quoted say a two-handed weapon is the same size as its wielder.

[hamishspence]

A thrown improvised weapon is not going to work on Diminutive or smaller swarms - because all improvised weapons do weapon damage, and smaller swarms are immune to that.

If you want to damage a Swarm with an object, you need to drop it rather than throw it.

[magicalmagicman]

A thrown improvised weapon is not going to work on Diminutive or smaller swarms - because all improvised weapons do weapon damage, and smaller swarms are immune to that.

If you want to damage a Swarm with an object, you need to drop it rather than throw it.

Exactly. I'm throwing it into the air so that it drops onto the swarm.

How is dropping a corpse on top of the swarm from a 50ft cliff different than throwing a corpse 50ft into the sky so it drops on top of the swarm in the exact same manner?

[Vizzerdrix]

A thrown improvised weapon is not going to work on Diminutive or smaller swarms - because all improvised weapons do weapon damage, and smaller swarms are immune to that.

If you want to damage a Swarm with an object, you need to drop it rather than throw it.

What about the caber and sandblaster?

[hamishspence]

What about the caber and sandblaster?

Masters of the Wild's Caber's a Bludgeoning Weapon, therefore only works on Tiny swarms (and you need to immobilise the swarm to ensure it takes damage, anyway - it specifically only damages creatures incapable of moving out of it's way.)

3 possibilities:

Creature is capable of moving, passes its reflex save - remains stationary and takes no damage.
Creature is capable of moving, fails its reflex save - is forced to move 5 ft backward from its original position and takes no damage.
Creature is incapable of moving - it takes bludgeoning damage.


Any creature that passes the reflex save, and is capable of moving, is neither forced to move 5 ft backward, nor damaged.

The Sandblaster is an exotic ranged weapon that does untyped damage.

I would say that tiny swarms take full damage from it, and Diminutive swarms take no damage. Untyped weapon damage, is still weapon damage.



Exactly. I'm throwing it into the air so that it drops onto the swarm.

How is dropping a corpse on top of the swarm from a 50ft cliff different than throwing a corpse 50ft into the sky so it drops on top of the swarm in the exact same manner?

Giants can throw rocks - rocks being a kind of improved thrown weapon that giants are proficient with:


https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giant.htm

but a thrown rock is not a falling rock. One is a weapon, the other is not. Yes, it's silly, but D&D RAW is sometimes like that.

I'd apply similar logic to siege engines - because a siege engine is a weapon - it follows that its projectiles are also weapons, even if the type of damage the impacting rock does is unspecified.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm#siegeEngines

[magicalmagicman]

Giants can throw rocks - rocks being a kind of improved thrown weapon that giants are proficient with:


https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giant.htm

but a thrown rock is not a falling rock. One is a weapon, the other is not. Yes, it's silly, but D&D RAW is sometimes like that.

The giants are throwing rocks at the creature. I'm throwing the corpse at the sky. The PC is literally right next to the swarm. But instead of throwing the corpse at the swarm at point blank range, he is throwing it into the sky, straight up almost vertical.

Are you telling me this still requires an AC and attack roll and is considered a weapon attack instead of invoking falling rules? That's totally fine btw, this whole thread is just something I thought was funny and wanted to know if the rules did in fact work that way.

[hamishspence]

Might depend on the DM, but I could see them treating it as "You are targeting a square (with the swarm in that square), just like a tiny siege engine, therefore it gets a reflex save, and the object counts as a weapon".

Any time you throw anything "with intent to damage", ballistically, vertically, or whatever - a case could be made that it's an Improvised Thrown Weapon, unless the object happens to be an actual one.


IMO, Reverse Gravity would be a very good way to deal with Diminutive or Fine groundbound swarms, guaranteeing full damage. It takes massive damage when it hits the ceiling (if there is a ceiling at the right height) massive damage when it hits the floor again, and it's not likely to pass its Reflex save against being tossed skyward.

That said, when you're that high level, groundbound swarms would probably be only a minor inconvenience.


Again, creatures aren't objects. If you wanted to actually pull this off, you'd have to render your fellow PC a corpse first, and they'd probably have to be massively smaller than you (if you haven't found effects to help ease size difference issues).


Some swordmage maneuvers from Tome of Battle, it must be said, allow you to throw an enemy, and that enemy does damage to the things they collide with - such as, everything in a 60 x 5 ft area (Ballista Throw). This might accomplish the same thing without the thrown enemy "counting as an improvised thrown weapon" and instead counting as more like an area effect spell, only nonmagical.

On top of that, as an area effect, the swarm would take 1.5x standard damage, rather than standard damage.

If your friend agrees to "count as an enemy" (because the swarm is just that dangerous) it could work. However, if you do this, then the "enemy"'s actual weight doesn't matter - Ballista Throw does fixed damage (6d6) with no modifications for light or heavy enemies.

[Powerdork]

The rules you quoted say a two-handed weapon is the same size as its wielder.

No, the rules I quoted say that a two-handed weapon sized for a Medium creature is a Medium object; tell me with a straight face that you think a polearm is comparable to a full humanoid.

[Blue Jay]

The giants are throwing rocks at the creature. I'm throwing the corpse at the sky. The PC is literally right next to the swarm. But instead of throwing the corpse at the swarm at point blank range, he is throwing it into the sky, straight up almost vertical.

Are you telling me this still requires an AC and attack roll and is considered a weapon attack instead of invoking falling rules? That's totally fine btw, this whole thread is just something I thought was funny and wanted to know if the rules did in fact work that way.

I would let you do this if I were your DM, as long as the other player was okay with it.

I think I agree with Powerdork on a couple points, though: the rules for throwing a splash weapon (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#throwSplashWeapon) seem appropriate. Heroes of Battle also talks in more general terms about direct vs indirect attacks. Basically, when you lob something up so it falls down on the target, that's an indirect attack: you make an attack roll against a square, and anyone in the square gets a Ref save, treating it like an area attack (which means a swarm would take extra damage). So, maybe read up on how D&D handles the physics of catapult attacks.

Certainly, using falling damage rules to determine how much damage the thrown character takes makes sense, but without having thought it through too carefully, I would want refer to the improvised weapon damage rules in Complete Warrior to determine the damage dealt to the swarm. But I think those rules may be partly based on the falling damage rules anyway, so it may not make a difference.

[hamishspence]

Basically, when you lob something up so it falls down on the target, that's an indirect attack: you make an attack roll against a square, and anyone in the square gets a Ref save, treating it like an area attack (which means a swarm would take extra damage).

A Swarm of Tiny creatures would take the extra damage (and not have to worry about the whole ". But a swarm of Diminutive/Fine creatures may end up taking no damage at all, if the lobbed object is considered "a weapon that does untyped damage" in the same fashion as a Sandblaster.

[AvatarVecna]

So if we put all this together, a fighter can grab another PC who is at least 200lbs with all of his gear, throw him 50ft into the air, and deal 5d6 damage to the swarm and 4d6 damage to the PC + 1d6 nonlethal damage.

Did I miss anything?

edit: to clarify, I am throwing the PC into the air where he will then drop 50ft and deal falling object damage. No AC or attack roll required.

Even if we agree that creatures count as objects for the purposes of wielding them as improvised weapons, there are rules about how heavy an object you can wield as an improvised weapon - and they have nothing to do with how much weight you can carry, and everything to do with the size of the wielder.


If an object weighs up to 2 pounds, a Medium character can treat it as a light weapon. Objects weighing between 2 and 10 pounds are one-handed weapons for Medium characters, and objects weighing 11 to 50 pounds are two-handed weapons. Halve these numbers for every size category below Medium, and double them for every size category above Medium.

It also lists damage values for wielding them as weapons. (and spiky improvised weapons deal damage as an object twice as heavy). If you grow to Large size via some method, you could wield a 100-lb spiky object as an improvised weapon dealing 4d6 damage, which is how much it would deal if you threw it and it hit. If it missed, it would fall in a random square adjacent to the column you were aiming for, and deal damage per the falling damage rules (so if you threw it upwards as high as it'll go, that 100-lb object would fall 50 ft to a square adjacent to where you aimed it, and deal 2d6 damage. Neither the improvised weapon damage nor the falling damage is AoE so it affects swarms as normal for the swarm's size.

[hamishspence]

I think the Ballista Throw manuever is the most overtly "AOE" way of Throwing somebody, so far - 60 ft line area, like a very short lightning bolt.

However, I could see some DMs saying "It's basically just Piercing Shot (the PHB 2 feat) but with an Improvised Throwing Weapon instead of a Crossbow Bolt" - and that just as they wouldn't allow crossbow bolts to damage Diminutive/Fine swarms merely through being converted into a Line Attack, so they wouldn't allow Ballista Throw to do so either.

[magicalmagicman]

Alright, i get it. There is a billion things saying this doesn't work. Even Powerdork is right.


A weapon’s size category isn’t the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon’s size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.

AvatarVecna's quote also kills the whole thing.

Diminuitive swarms will forever remain the ultimate noob killer.

[hamishspence]

Diminutive flying swarms are even nastier - even Reverse Gravity or trying to drop them from a great height, won't work on them.

Dungeonscape does have a Swarmstrike Magic Weapon property that allows weapons to do full damage to swarms - even Diminutive or Fine swarms.