D&D 3.5 - Wizards knowing spells they can't cast.

[TheRageee]

Hello. A player in my party is a level 16 wizard (knows 8 level spells).
He wants to buy a scroll of Astral Projection, but he has never heard of the spell in game nor seen it, nor he can cast it, being still level 16.
This made me think... can a level 1 wizard virtually know any spell from level 1 to 9 even without having seen them or read of them in a spellbook, just with a Spellcraft check?
Isn't it stupid? Or does a Wizard need to see the spell beforehand in order to know the existance of it?
Spellcraft, also, specifies you can "recognize a spell being cast or already in place", not knowing any spell in general. Thanks.

[Powerdork]

Four trains of thought you could go with: Wizard communities (such as schools, guilds, or mailing lists) trade stories of any spell they find intriguing or useful, justifying a wizard knowing about any spell the player wants them to; wizards haven't heard of any spell and need to be inspired with knowledge of a spell's existence before they can go searching for it, but they can still independently find a way to prepare 2 spells every time they gain a level; a Spellcraft check will let a wizard know if a particular spell can and the lengths they'd have to go to to get it (a blatant houserule); or wizards get the gist of every spell in the Player's Handbook, and all spells from other books are rarities.

My personal favourite is a variant of the first; there's a lot of work to enforce (and even more to circumvent) intellectual property rights in mage circles, with lots of bootlegs and innovations arising from restrictions on scribing other wizards' spells.

[Psyren]

In general terms, "recognizing" a spell and "knowing" a spell are two different things.

But you're not asking about "knowing" a spell, rather you're asking if this player "knows it exists" so that they can go check the shops for it. If this requires a check at all, it would be covered by Knowledge Arcana. Personally though, I wouldn't require a roll for any core spell's existence, I'd assume those to be common knowledge. (Even if nobody in the world has seen anyone use a Wish or Polymorph, even commoners know magic can do those things.)

[Kayblis]

This is less a rules issue and more a setting and roleplay issue.

On the rules side, you can roll a Spellcraft check to recognize a spell as it's being cast, which implies you already knew something about the spell beforehand. You don't just go "hey, that's that Black Tentacles spell I know nothing about and never heard of, I bet it has a 20ft radius effect". It implies previous knowledge, but doesn't outright state it. You also can legally scribe any Sorc/Wiz spell in your spellbook, regardless of ability to cast it, as long as it's not from a prohibited school. You just need to make the Spellcraft check(DC 15+spell lv) to scribe it.

On the setting side, the DM estabilishes the rarity of spells in his own setting, and what's considered normal. If you're playing in a traditional setting, like Forgotten Realms or Eberron, there are guidelines for spell availability, and as they're very high-magic worlds, it's usually simple for a lv 16 character to get their hands on a 9th level scroll. It's implied that characters know a lot about spells in the world other than the ones they have memorized, and any scholarly institution would be a big source of knowledge. You could ask for a Knowledge(Arcana) check, but being honest with you, if the guy is level 16 he probably has '+Yes' to the check anyways.

A first-level wizard technically can identify a 9th level spell being cast if he makes the spellcraft DC of 24. Do note that, just because you know it exists, it doesn't give you a scroll of the spell or even a way to know how to get one. Wish is a spell often used in epic tales and novels, but good luck finding an actual scroll of Wish or a person that has it in their spellbook. Magic item availability is loosely regulated by setting, but even a metropolis might not have most of the highest level spells in the books.

[RNightstalker]

Hello. A player in my party is a level 16 wizard (knows 8 level spells).
He wants to buy a scroll of Astral Projection, but he has never heard of the spell in game nor seen it, nor he can cast it, being still level 16.
This made me think... can a level 1 wizard virtually know any spell from level 1 to 9 even without having seen them or read of them in a spellbook, just with a Spellcraft check?
Isn't it stupid? Or does a Wizard need to see the spell beforehand in order to know the existance of it?
Spellcraft, also, specifies you can "recognize a spell being cast or already in place", not knowing any spell in general. Thanks.

I don't remember where I recently read it but the rules assume a player has awareness of all printed spells.

[Fizban]

Hello. A player in my party is a level 16 wizard (knows 8 level spells).
He wants to buy a scroll of Astral Projection, but he has never heard of the spell in game nor seen it, nor he can cast it, being still level 16.
This made me think... can a level 1 wizard virtually know any spell from level 1 to 9 even without having seen them or read of them in a spellbook, just with a Spellcraft check?
Isn't it stupid? Or does a Wizard need to see the spell beforehand in order to know the existance of it?
Spellcraft, also, specifies you can "recognize a spell being cast or already in place", not knowing any spell in general. Thanks.
You have discovered another of the "straw DM" assumptions underpinning much of char-op, perfect in-character knowledge of huge amounts of source material they've never actually interacted with. While it is reasonable to presume that the PHB spells are "well known" due to the PHB being one of the only truly default allowed sources, the only actual rule regarding it is the same as access to anything: ask the DM.

The first question is whether or not Astral Projection exists at all in your world- as DM, if you don't like the spell and no one's been using it, you can still veto or modify it entirely without any fuss (Astral Projection preventing you from dying in normal combat is pretty extreme even for a 9th). Second, since it is PHB spell and you're specifically concerned about higher level spells rather than just source, a quick guideline could be that spellcasters are moderately aware of spells on their class list up to one level higher than those they currently have (because they are "working" on mastering those spells in their off screen training). This would mean that your 16th level Wizard would be aware enough to know Astral Projection exists unless you get rid of it, but yeah.

You could institute a "knowledge list" for all characters where they have some amount of feats and spells and Prestige classes and whatnot which they are aware of which is less than the total of all "books available," but sufficiently large that they have some options. Which is better than restricting each character to X books, but is still an entire extra level of meta bookkeeping and game design when the game rather presumes (rightly in my experience) that half the players won't even want to track spells. You could more narrowly allow that a submitted "build" which a player has notified you they intend to follow, and you have okayed (subject to any adjustment for unforseen problems, as usual), implies that the character is aware of everything in the build. But that I still find sketchy considering how wacky some builds are.

This sort of knowledge should not be governed by a skill roll. Unless you intend to make all the other classes roll skills to see if they know how their class features work, and everyone roll to see if they know how basic game mechanics work. The game does assume knowledge of the game and many of its character options. Though it does highlight the fact that Spellcraft and Knowledge: Arcana already do too many things and ought to have some splitting up.
-However, rephrasing the question and asking in-character can go a loooong way to fixing things. That's where Knowledge: Arcana (assuming the pre-known knowledge skill also somehow governs library research, because that's how the game does it) check, or a Gather Information check, or some other information gathering spell, could get you the info. And also tell you what it actually is they want, rather than just Astral Projection, in which case you could potentially substitute something else (if they actually just want it for planar travel, say).

Whether or not they can buy a scroll is the next big question. While the gp limits of cities work for arbitrarily allowing/restricting the usual continuous items, they don't for consumables. A 9th level scroll is 3,825 gp, low enough that supposedly every Small City in the world has access to packaged 9th level spells? A 8th level scroll is 3,000gp, dropping that down to every Large Town with 2,001 people. But the highest level possible wizard generated with those sizes is 9th or 7th level, respectively. The highest level wizard generated by a full Metropolis is in fact 16th level: by the DMG, the only NPCs even capable of creating a 9th level scroll are those the DM has placed by hand. This can be remedied/delayed by using the city progression from the Epic Level Handbook, which supplies much higher level NPCs that can then support higher level item creation, but even so you still need a Metropolis or Planar Metropolis to have someone who can make a 9th level scroll, let alone get them to sell you one.

And further, the PHB's own lines about learning spells from other wizards do point out the fact that high level spells are kinda important and maybe people don't just sell those to each other.

So yeah. DMs have some decisions to make regarding high level scrolls.

[rel]

I'd say a knowledge arcana role is a reasonable way of determining this sort of thing.

DC 10 gives you basic knowledge and DC 15 gives you detailed knowledge.

Increase the DC as you like based on the spells rarity. I'd go with + spells level then +5 to -5 for how popular / obscure the spell is (for astral projection I'd go with a -3 since it's powerful and available early via monster abilities for a total DC of 16 / 21 for basic / detailed knowledge).

[Endarire]

As GM, I assumed that characters generally knew that certain abilities existed in-universe. A level 6 character has probably never seen mass heal in action, but simply knows it exists. How the spell looks and what it does is also subject to GM information flow.

As for Wizards, they can add spells to their repertoire of levels they can't yet cast. It's just assumed to work this way, like in Baldur's Gate. It's kinda like saying, "I'm in third grade now and I won't need this fourth grade math book yet, but I'll keep it until I need it."

[Telonius]

Real-world comparisons are always a little dicey; but it's common enough knowledge that things like particle colliders, nuclear reactors, satellites, and electron microscopes exist. Say those words to a random person on the street, and there's a good chance they have some idea of what you're talking about, even if they don't know how they work exactly. Being able to build or use one is another matter.

Depending on the setting, it could make sense that knowing the existence of widely-used spells would be something people do untrained (DC 10 or even 5). If you're in a typical high-magic world, it's something people would just pretty much know. Now, if you're in a, "Magic is rare and/or illegal, and information is fiercely guarded" setting, that would change things, and it might justify a higher check. I would think that this is something the DM ought to clarify when telling the players about the setting.

For an actual Wizard, I personally wouldn't even ask for a Knowledge check for anything in the PHB to know that the thing exists. If it's some rare or obscure thing, possibly. But Astral Projection would be fair game. I think Endarire's math book example is a great one. A Wizard can buy the specs now, even if he's not capable of casting it yet.

[ngilop]

There is a definitive line between knowing something and knowing about something, and it seems you have made the two the same thing.

Example:

I know about skunks; little mammals that hit you with a spray after a few foot stomps and bum rushes

I have no idea how to tell a female apart from a male without getting into the danger zone and zero clue as to which particular species of skunk I am looking at.