I need to optimize throwing daggers...

[Melcar]

Hellow fellow scriberinoes

I was looking for options to make a viable human dagger thrower, who does not suck who can be as effective as a human fighter archer...

I fail to really find anything that seems to even remotly function, so I turn to this forum for help...

How do I slap together a powerful thrower?

[Piggy Knowles]

Funny you should ask! Our group was considering doing a weapon thrower for a showcase. I got as far as finishing the build and writing up the level-by-level breakdown before we got sidetracked and the build ended up getting shelved, but here's a kukri or dagger thrower that I like a lot:

1 Warblade1- Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
Wolf fang strike, sudden leap, moment of perfect mind, blood in the waterstance
2 Ranger1- Track
3 Ranger2- Rapid Shot, Throw Anything
4 Fighter1- Weapon Focus
5 Fighter2- Two-Weapon Fighting
6 Master Thrower1- Quick Draw, Brutal Throw
7 Master Thrower2-
8 Master Thrower3-
9 Master Thrower4- Snatch Arrows, Power Throw
10 Master Thrower5-
11 Warblade2-
Douse the flames
12 Warblade3- Improved Critical
Covering strike
13 Warblade4-
Douse the flames -> white raven tactics, pearl of black doubtstance
14 Warblade5- Improved Initiative
Dancing mongoose
15 Warblade6- Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
16 Warblade7-
Moment of alacrity
17 Warblade8-
18 Warblade9- Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Blind-Fight
Quicksilver motion
19 Warblade10-
Hearing the airstance
20 Warblade11-
Raging mongoose

Kukris are actually not essential to the build at all (though they are cool for feeding blood in the water), so if you're married to daggers, you can drop Throw Anything.

Here's the level-by-level write-up I'd done for the showcase:


1 Warblade1- PBS, Precise Shot
Wolf fang strike, sudden leap, moment of perfect mind, blood in the waterstance

Warblade may seem like an odd choice for a ranged weapon user, but a lot of its boosts, counters and stances work just fine with melee or ranged attacks. You’ll specifically be focused on Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw disciplines, with a splash of White Raven. This pretty much locks you into wolf fang strike as your opening maneuver, but that’s not exactly a bad thing. Grab a couple of daggers and go to town, switching between melee and thrown attacks, staying mobile with sudden leap and standard action attacks. Blood in the water is a fine opening stance as well; it does best once you have multiple attacks, but it works equally well with melee and ranged and will eventually turn into quite the damage engine.

2 Ranger1- Track

You’ll want to stack some bonus feats early on without dropping any BAB. You could go fighter 4, but ranger 2/fighter 2 nets significantly better skills, Track, a favored enemy and the ability to use wands of ranger spells, making it a much better pick. As for your favored enemy, it’s hard to go wrong with arcanists, though undead is not a bad choice either, since the fact that they are crit-immune means you’ll appreciate any bonus damage you can rack up against them.

3 Ranger2- Rapid Shot, Throw Anything

Rapid Shot as a bonus feat means two attacks when making ranged attacks, while Throw Anything lets you start chucking kukris or other high-crit weapons to help take advantage of blood in the water.

4 Fighter1- Weapon Focus (dagger)

And now into fighter. Hit and run tactics is just a perfect fit for a high-Dex fighter, since you won’t want heavy armor regardless, and now you can get some very nice bonus damage when you win initiative or otherwise find your foes flat-footed. Weapon Focus is a required feat and helps cut into the penalty you’ll be taking for Rapid Shot/TWF. You’re taking it in dagger, because that unequivocally qualifies as a thrown weapon for Master Thrower, but thanks to weapon aptitude you can shuffle this into boosting your kukris instead.

5 Fighter2- Two-Weapon Fighting

Another level of fighter gives you TWF. Without Quick Draw you won’t be able to combine this with Rapid Shot yet, but it’s still nice to switch between melee and ranged as desired.

6 Master Thrower1- Quick Draw, Brutal Throw

And with master thrower it all starts to lock into place. Quick Draw as a bonus feat, combined with +6 BAB and TWF/Rapid Shot means you’ll be able to make four attacks in a full attack. And with the palm throw trick, you can now throw a pair of weapons with each attack, upping it from four to eight. You’re restricted to small weapons, including darts, shuriken, daggers or other weapons as the DM allows. Kukri aren’t listed, as they ordinarily aren’t thrown weapons, but given that they’re the same size as daggers they seem like a reasonable option. With eight attacks and an 18-20 crit range, you should be racking up blood in the water damage in every fight, meaning you get stronger and stronger as the encounter goes on.

Brutal Throw is actually not a particularly useful feat for you, since you’re going to remain focused on Dex for the most part (Strength just plain isn’t as useful, since your main thrown weapon tricks don’t allow you to get your Strength bonus to damage), but it’s required.

7 Master Thrower2-

Evasion is always handy. Not a ton else interesting about this level, though.

8 Master Thrower3-

Another thrown weapon trick lets you pick up either defensive throw or deadeye shot. Assuming you can apply this to your kukris (which, for you, are thrown weapons), that means each one is dealing triple damage on a crit. If you can’t apply this bonus to your kukris (and by my reading this is probably the correct ruling), you may instead prefer defensive throw to throw without provoking.

9 Master Thrower4- Snatch Arrows, Power Throw

Snatch Arrows as a free feat to negate a ranged attack every round is very nice. Meanwhile, Power Throw comes on as the main reason you took Brutal Throw earlier, giving you the ability to add significant bonus damage to your kukris… damage that gets multiplied on every crit. You’ll have to be careful about how liberally you apply it at first, since tanking your attack bonus can result in a series of whiffs, but after you’ve racked up some blood in the water boosts you can in turn feed them into Power Throw damage.

10 Master Thrower5- Improved Critical (dagger)

Hey, warblade aptitude to the rescue once again! With the critical throw class feature you gain the Improved Critical feat in whatever weapon you took with your Weapon Focus. You explicitly gain the feat, though, meaning you can aptitude that over to your kukri for an excellent 15-20 threat range. With eight attacks per round, you should be generating on average at least two crits in most attack routines, which quickly snowball thanks to blood in the water. And considering the number of weapons you throw in a round, spending the money on keen simply wasn’t an option.

Better still, you gain the weak spot thrown weapon trick, letting you make your thrown weapon attacks as touch attacks. You don’t get your Strength bonus to damage, but you weren’t getting that anyhow. Meanwhile you DO get other bonuses, such as blood in the water, Dex from hit and run tactics fighter and perhaps most importantly, bonus damage from Power Throw.

11 Warblade2-
Douse the flames

With master thrower completed, it’s time to jump back into warblade. Douse the flames is purely a filler maneuver, and likely won’t ever see much play. You also get uncanny dodge and another iterative attack, meaning you’re making ten attacks on a full attack.

12 Warblade3- Imp TWF
White raven tactics

And with your pre-req out of the way, go ahead and pick up the incomparable white raven tactics here, giving you more fun uses of your swift action in combat. Battle ardor also comes online here, giving you +Int to your crit confirmation rolls, which is very handy even if it only amounts to a couple of points. Oh, and Improved TWF adds on another attack to your routine, upping your total to 12.

13 Warblade4-
Douse the flames -> covering strike, pearl of black doubtstance

Covering strike is one of the rare boosts that work with ranged attacks, and with the ability to attack as many as six different targets in a round, you can completely shut down AoOs when necessary. Not too shabby, and a perfect swap considering that douse the flames wasn’t doing anything for you. Pearl of black doubt is a decentish defensive stance for when you are surrounded by mooks, but really it’s mostly there to make your diamond mind pre-reqs easier down the road; unless you’re facing undead or other crit-immune folks, you’ll almost always want to remain in blood in the water.

14 Warblade5- Imp Init
Dancing mongoose

A bonus feat means free Improved Initiative, giving you more opportunities to take advantage of the damage bonus provided by hit and run fighter. And dancing mongoose is yet another boost that works equally well with ranged attacks as with melee. The fact that it requires two weapons to fully take advantage is no great hindrance for you, considering that you TWF with your thrown weapons, so this is a great way to sneak in a handful of extra attacks in an attack routine.

15 Warblade6- Greater TWF

Improved uncanny dodge is another nice defensive boost. More importantly, of course, is Greater TWF, bringing you up to 14 attacks in a round, or 18 with dancing mongoose.

16 Warblade7-
Moment of alacrity

Moment of alacrity gives you another way to shuffle initiative order around a bit, this time for yourself. And with +16 BAB you’re now up to 16 attacks, or 20 with dancing mongoose.

17 Warblade8-

Not much at this level, so you’ll have to just make do with the fact that you’re throwing more than a dozen Power Throw-boosted kukris as touch attacks every round.

18 Warblade9- Staggering Critical, Blind-Fight
Quicksilver motion

Another warblade bonus feat. There isn’t a ton to choose from that is relevant for you, but Blind-Fight never hurts to have. And with your standard feat, Staggering Critical applies a nice debuff at no save on every successful crit. Finally, quicksilver motion gives you the best swift action movement you’ll find.

19 Warblade10-
Hearing the airstance

Another stance. Once again you’ll rarely want to leave blood in the water, but hearing the air provides you with some excellent utility.

20 Warblade11-
Raging mongoose

And for your capstone you get the excellent raging mongoose, giving you four extra attacks as a swift action. Thanks to palm throw you double that to eight, putting you up to as many as 24 attacks in a single attack routine (without even getting into things like haste!).

Assuming you go all out, with full BAB, the TWF line, Rapid Shot and raging mongoose, you’ll be tossing out a whopping 24 kukris in a round. These attacks are all touch attacks thanks to the weak spot thrown weapon trick, and they threaten a critical on a 15 or higher. That’s an average of 7.2 critical hits per full attack… each one boosting every subsequent attack thanks to blood in the water. This is perfect, making even those attacks at the bottom of your attack routine surprisingly accurate and allowing you to feed several points into Power Throw.

[Kayblis]

First of all, you'd need the Quickdraw feat to be able to draw and throw your daggers. Then you'll be well served by having TWF for double dagger throwing, and a few of the archery feats like the Point-Blank Shot tree to reduce penalties. If you intend on doing lots of damage with each dagger, have STR as your main stat and pick Brutal Throw to use STR for your attack rolls, which also adds to damage. Later on, the Power Throw feat adds Power Attack to your thrown weapons, which raises considerably your damage ceiling. You will want some sneak attack damage if you can afford the cost, which can be obtained with a Swordsage dip later on for a stance that provides 2d6 SA, as well as Rogue dips. If you do plan on adding SA dice to your damage, a couple levels in Monk will net you Invisible Fist, which lets you turn invisible for a round every three rounds in order to get easy SA. As you'll be using STR for hitting and damage, pumping it into the stratosphere is your main priority.

Throwing builds are very feat-intensive, so you'll have an easier time going with Fighter and Ranger(ranged style). The Monk feats also can help with prereqs if you do plan on going sneaking. By the end, you'll have something like:

Fighter 2~4/Ranger 2/Rogue 3/Monk 2/Swordsage 1/[Your choice] 8~10

You'll end up with 3 or 4 more feats than usual, useful invisibility, some extra abilities for when you can't throw effectively, a couple maneuvers to shore up your weaknesses and some relevant amount of SA dice(4d6 at ~9), as well as stellar saves because you dipped so much. This is a more complex build than most ranged builds, but the resulting power is higher compared to only using one or two of these classes. I suggest picking the first Rogue level as your first level, for the skillpoints and for beginning play with the sneaky style already in place.

[RNightstalker]

Gloves of Endless Javelins Daggers?

[Aracor]

I have a halfling version of this.

It combines halfling rogue, a bit of Thug Sneak Attack Fighter, Swordsage, Invisible Blade, Master Thrower, and Whisperknife. It depends primarily on sneak attack for damage, but makes touch attacks on anything bigger than him (Ring of Reduction or a permanent Reduce Person doesn't hurt), and is pretty nasty. Some basic Swordsage maneuvers, Assassin's Stance so the swordsage levels don't count against sneak attack, 8d6 sneak attack by level 20 + craven, and playable through all levels.

[Saintheart]

Here's a big list of daggerthrowing options that I totally have no involvement or relation to (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?596810-The-Subtle-Knife-Options-for-Players-and-DMs-using-the-Dagger)...

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Well, it's not human, but I'm rather proud of this Gamewarpers optimization challenge build. I call it The Siege Tower (http://bit.ly/2kOivMm). 22 or 24 daggers per round by ECL 8. You can drop a couple of elements (it's questionable whether Rapid Shot applies to thrown weapons, and most of the Epic feats are devoted to the round's aberration theme rather than throwing daggers), and I missed a few skill requirements, but I'm still pretty pleased with how the whole thing turned out.

[tiercel]

Advantages of throwing actual daggers:

Can be thrown or used TWF melee
Respectable crit range for a simple weapon
Have specific support (unique weapons, class, spell, skill support specifically for “dagger”)


Disadvantage:

10’ range increment. Ouch. You’re looking at range increment to-hit penalties even with Far Shot as a feat tax or magic ability


Alternative: you throw “throwing knives” instead (read: darts refluffed as small throwing-only blades you can tuck into a bandoleer, for instance), which have less crit range but a base 20’ range increment.

Depends if you want to be in melee ever, though throwing actual daggers will also make you more likely to *wind up* in melee...

[Soranar]

Other people have pointed out that daggers are not optimal but I'll see what I can do

First, the issue with ranged damage is that you lose a lot of damage boosting options

only 1 x your STR (and 1/2 for offhand attacks)
small weapon damage (d4)
so even with many attacks you have issues against damage resistance and even your range is limited

so that means fighting with precision damage (sneak attack or skirmish) and hoping you don't encounter something immune to critical hits

or it means you need to play a swift hunter

you get precision damage (from skirmish) and even creatures immune to crits aren't safe from you (because of swift hunter)

all you need is a reliable way to trigger skirmish

you can rely on several magic items at higher level (like a carpet of flying or several anklets of translocation) but, at lower levels, you're better off using a cleric dip to get travel devotion

With all of this in mind

Alternate class features and substitution levels

Cloistered cleric
skilled city dweller (scout, you get all of those skills back with ranger)
urban companion (ranger, pick the raven since it can cast spells)

STATS (32 pts buy)
STR 14
DEX 15 (main stat, gets every increase)
CON 14
INT 14 (you have a great skill list)
WIS 14 (to cast all the ranger spells, some are great like entangle)
CHA 8 (dump stat, you always get 3 turn undead which is enough to cover most fights with travel devotion)

Race: human
Templates: none
Deity: Sehanine Moonbow

Level 1 : Cloistered Cleric Travel devotion (instead of domain) , Knowledge devotion (instead of domain), Elf Domain (for point blank shot and the true strike spell)

Feat: Able learner (you need to keep access to all the knowledge skills for knowledge devotion), Rapid shot
Level 2-4 : Scout take quickdraw at level 3
Level 5: Ranger
Level 6: Scout Improved skirmish (for bonus feat: swift hunter)
Level 7+ Ranger

Favored enemies: start with undead then take constructs and finally elementals, oozes and plants are too rare to bother with


Ok so at level 1 you can move and shoot twice (with rapid shot), for now you might want to use a shield to help your AC and you get +1 to damage from point blank shot and knowledge devotion
At level 2 you can trigger skimish
At level 6 you have 2d6 skirmish + another 2d6 if you move 20 ft

Now your damage is not half bad

1d4 + point blank shot+ knowledge devotion + STR (or half for off hand attacks) + skirmish (4d6 with improved skirmish at level 6 which is higher than a rogue's sneak attack), you only fall behind around level 11 and your ability works against undead and you get a lot of attacks through rapid shot + two weapon fighting and a higher BAB

You're not at ubercharger levels but you can contribute and you have a ton of skillpoints for out of combat uses.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

One advantage of thrown daggers over melee or ranged is that it requires way less investment to get Iaijutsu Focus; you've already got Quick Draw and you're already drawing a melee weapon every time you attack. Spend a feat on Skill Knowledge (iaijutsu focus) or take a level in Human Paragon to make it permanently a class skill (you don't even need to do this, but it helps), and now you just need a way to reliably flat-foot your enemies to dish out bonus damage with every attack you make. Bonus damage that works on undead, objects, constructs, at any range, and stacks with both Sneak Attack and Skirmish.

Total concealment works, as does invisibility (when you are hidden from a creature it is flat-footed against your attacks). So does going before them in the first round of combat, but obviously only for that round. My favorite for getting total concealment is 7+ levels of Monk to grab both Invisible Fist and Dark Moon Disciple, but while the latter is fantastic it also requires you to worship an evil goddess, and you won't be progressing your precision damage unless you're also a Sidewinder Monk (from Dragon Magazine) and/or a Halfling Monk (which gets you a little bit of Skirmish). Going all the way up to level 9 may be worth it for the second Invisible Fist ability if you have decent Wisdom, and is definitely worth it if you're also a Sidewinder Monk because it gets you an extra die of SA.

On that note, 2 levels of monk is not a bad idea regardless. Trade Evasion for Invisible Fist to turn invisible once every three rounds. And then buy/steal/borrow a Sparring Dummy of the Master to turn your 5ft steps into 10ft steps to trivially activate skirmish or at the very least let you move around while still full-attacking.

[gorfnab]

Here is a dagger throwing build I have had some success with as well as some extra resource material that may be of use.

Human
1. Rogue - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Craven (CoR), Far Shot, 2x Flaws
2. Swashbuckler - B: Weapon Finesse
3. Rogue - Two Weapon Fighting
4. Rogue - Penetrating Strike ACF (DS)
5. Swashbuckler - Arcane Stunt ACF (CM)
6. Swordsage - B: Weapon Focus: Shadow Hand weapons, Shadowblade (ToB)
7. Swashbuckler - (For Insightful Strike)
8. Fighter - Targeteer ACF (DragMag 310) {Vital Aim}, Hit-and-Run Tactics ACF (DotU - if your DM is lenient and lets it mix with Targeteer),
9. Fighter - Targeteer ACF - Rapid Shot, Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10. Swordsage - (for Assassins Stance)
11. Master Thrower - B: Quick Draw, {Thrown Weapon Trick: Palm Throw}
12. Master Thrower - Dead Eye (DragMag 304)
13. Master Thrower - {Thrown Weapon Trick: Two With One Blow}
14. Master Thrower - B: Snatch Arrows
15. Master Thrower - B: Improved Critical, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, {Thrown Weapon Trick: Weak Spot}
16. Invisible Blade
17. Invisible Blade
18. Invisible Blade - Improved Precise Shot
19. Invisible Blade
20. Invisible Blade

*If you don't want or need Improved Precise Shot, you could potentially change the feat order by taking Rapid Shot at 9th level and take the Arrow Swarm ability of Targeteer. This moves Improved Two Weapon Fighting to 15th level and Great Improved Two Weapon Fighting to 18th. While this will make you initially a bit less effective in melee and range, once you hit 15th level it basically evens out especially when considering the Thrown Weapon Trick: Weak Spot.*

For throwing builds you need to look into ways to either carry enough daggers (not so good option) or magically generate an infinite supply of daggers (better option). There are three items that can work well for dagger throwing builds with some minor DM tweaking. The first is the Gloves of Endless Javelins (MIC). The main change being changing the javelins to daggers (with maybe a corresponding change in damage from d6 to d4). The second item is the Gauntlet of Infinite Blades (MIC). It can produce daggers, but only 1 per round because of its Swift action activation. The change here would be changing Swift action to Free action. The third item is the Quiver of Anariel, posted in the spoiler below. The change here would be "quiver" to "bandoleer" and "arrow(s)" to "dagger(s)".

Quiver of Anariel

Quiver of Anariel:Quivers of Anariel appear to be typical arrow containers capable of holding a score of arrows. However, the quivers automatically replenish themselves with standard or magical arrows, such that they are always full. Some quivers also create arrows made of special materials, such as adamantine, cold iron, or alchemical silver.

Once an arrow it taken from the quiver, it must be used within 1 round or it vanishes.

Moderate conjuration; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, magic weapon, minor creation; Price 28,000 gp (standard arrows), 29,000 gp (masterwork arrows), 32,000 gp (+1 arrows), 44,000 gp (+2 arrows), 64,000 gp (+3 arrows), 92,000 gp (+4 arrows), 128,000 gp (+5 arrows); Add an additional +6,000 gp for adamantine arrows, +4,005 gp for cold iron arrows, or +200 gp for alchemical silver arrows; Weight 1 lb.

Thankfully the article is saved here https://web.archive.org/web/20070401150041/http:/ww2.wizards.com/Books/Wizards/?doc=fr_lonedrowstats since WOTC decided to delete the original posting.


Other magic items you may want to look into:
Rogue's Vest (MIC)
Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (ToM)
Bracers of the Hunter (SoX)

Here is some light reading that may help you with the more Rogue based parts of the build.
The Rogue Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?156350-3-5-The-Rogue-Handbook-A-Fistful-of-d6)

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by gorfnab
Here is a dagger throwing build I have had some success with as well as some extra resource material that may be of use.

Thanks for posting this. Do the swashbuckler levels bring anything essential besides the bonus feat?

[gorfnab]

Thanks for posting this. Do the swashbuckler levels bring anything essential besides the bonus feat?
Yes, the first level of Swashbuckler nets you the Weapon Finesse feat for free. The third level nets you the Insightful Strike ability which adds your Int modifier to damage rolls with any light weapon as well as any other weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse. It does not specify melee or ranged attacks so this ends up being a nice boost to damage for all dagger attacks made. Also you can trade out the Swashbuckler's second level Grace ability for Arcane Stunt (CM, p. 32), gaining you a 1/day potentially life saving, increased tatical, or increased movement advantage based spell.

[Saintheart]

Advantages of throwing actual daggers:

Can be thrown or used TWF melee
Respectable crit range for a simple weapon
Have specific support (unique weapons, class, spell, skill support specifically for “dagger”)


Disadvantage:

10’ range increment. Ouch. You’re looking at range increment to-hit penalties even with Far Shot as a feat tax or magic ability


Alternative: you throw “throwing knives” instead (read: darts refluffed as small throwing-only blades you can tuck into a bandoleer, for instance), which have less crit range but a base 20’ range increment.

Depends if you want to be in melee ever, though throwing actual daggers will also make you more likely to *wind up* in melee...

Gauntlets of Extended Range (MIC) - 2,000 gp - double the range increment specifically for when a weapon or object is thrown . So combined with Far Shot, your range increment is either 30 feet - which is just on sneak attack range, assuming your DM thinks that double of a double is x3 ... or it's 40 feet if you just double the double. The Gauntlets at least arguably double the weapon's range increment rather than your range increment overall, so there's a strong case for saying it stacks with Far Shot.

If it's a matter of countering the range increment penalty only, Bowslinger from Underdark: +2 to the attack roll when throwing or firing a ranged weapon.

[Max Caysey]

Here's a big list of daggerthrowing options that I totally have no involvement or relation to (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?596810-The-Subtle-Knife-Options-for-Players-and-DMs-using-the-Dagger)...

The above guide says the following:


Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Improved Rapid Shot, etc.: Basically any time the word “ranged weapon” is used in respect of these feats, it applies to daggers … except, because the dagger is a melee weapon as well, you’ll never have to take Precise Shot.

Why do you not need to take Precise Shot? I don't understand this...

Edit: Is it because a dagger strictly speaking isn't a ranged weapon, but a thrown weapon, and because only ranged weapons specifically incur the -4 penalty to attack when shooting or throwing into combat? In the rules archive it kind of differs between ranged weapons and thrown weapons... Thrown weapons being melee weapons with a range increment... So, is that the workaround?

[Saintheart]

The above guide says the following:



Why do I not need to take Precise Shot? I don't understand this...

I should go back and clarify that. Basically all I was saying was that since the dagger is itself a melee weapon, you could always run up and stab someone with it rather than have to take Precise Shot to throw into a melee. I suck.

[Max Caysey]

I should go back and clarify that. Basically all I was saying was that since the dagger is itself a melee weapon, you could always run up and stab someone with it rather than have to take Precise Shot to throw into a melee. I suck.

I do actually think you might be on to something there... if you look real close at the Rules Archive article for Ranged Weapons, as I mention in my edit of my previous post, they do differ, strictly speaking, between ranged weapons and thrown weapons and "Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee." Since a dagger is effective in melee, it is strictly speaking not a ranged weapon, but a melee weapon... and throwing melee weapon onto combat does not incur the -4 penalty.

The thing is that its only ranged weapon which get the penalty. A dagger is a melee weapon that can be thrown, thus not a ranged weapon because the definition of a ranged weapon includes the clause that it is ineffective in melee, since the dagger is not meeting the requirement to be a ranged weapon it simply does not incur the penalty...

Am I grasping at straws here or could this actually work?

The question is whether a dagger is a ranged weapon or not... As far as I can tell its not. However, that presents a problem that all the ranged combat feats do not in fact function, so no point blank, no far shot, no dead eye, no ranged weapon mastery...

[RNightstalker]

I do actually think you might be on to something there... if you look real close at the Rules Archive article for Ranged Weapons, as I mention in my edit of my previous post, they do differ, strictly speaking, between ranged weapons and thrown weapons and "Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee." Since a dagger is effective in melee, it is strictly speaking not a ranged weapon, but a melee weapon... and throwing melee weapon onto combat does not incur the -4 penalty.

The thing is that its only ranged weapon which get the penalty. A dagger is a melee weapon that can be thrown, thus not a ranged weapon because the definition of a ranged weapon includes the clause that it is ineffective in melee, since the dagger is not meeting the requirement to be a ranged weapon it simply does not incur the penalty...

Am I grasping at straws here or could this actually work?

The question is whether a dagger is a ranged weapon or not... As far as I can tell its not. However, that precents a problem that all the ranged combat feats do not in fact function, so no point blank, no far shot, no dead eye, no ranged weapon mastery...

I think you could be on to something, but more likely grasping at straws. I think the intent behind the wording is that a crossbow wouldn't hold up too well versus a sword in melee...throwing a melee weapon makes it become a ranged weapon.

[Max Caysey]

I think you could be on to something, but more likely grasping at straws. I think the intent behind the wording is that a crossbow wouldn't hold up too well versus a sword in melee...throwing a melee weapon makes it become a ranged weapon.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?380897-Throwing-knives

This post, seems to agree with my thesis, that daggers are indeed not a ranged weapon and thus not applicable for ranged weapon feats...

[Maat Mons]

One option is to go psionic. You can use the Telekinetic Boomerang power to throw the same two daggers over and over again in the same round. Power Throw only gives you 1-to-1 returns, but a single level in Master Thrower lets you throw two daggers at the same time, so in a way you get 2-to-1 returns, just like a real Power-Attacker! If you go the full five levels of Master Thrower, you get touch attacks on anything bigger than you, and Compression means that will be almost everything. With touch attacks, you could probably just always take the full penalty/bonus from Power Throw. But you would be giving up a lot of manifesting.

Another option is to go psionic. The Tashalatora feat gives you full Monk unarmed strike damage, which you can scale up to 12d8 with size increases. You can deal this same damage with thrown weapons if you wield Scorpion Kamas (using the Throw Anything feat) or take a level of Drunken Master (and throw improvised weapons). Unfortunately, neither of these options can be combined with Palm Throw, because Kamas are too big, and you can't take Weapon Focus with improvised weapons. Maybe you can sweet-talk your DM into giving you dagger-versions of Scorpion Kama? The dagger is a special Monk weapon for Arnis, Escrima, and Kali, as per Dragon Mag #330.

If you don't want to be psionic, Bloodstorm Blade is a possible replacement for Telekinetic Boomerang.

[hamishspence]

The question is whether a dagger is a ranged weapon or not... As far as I can tell its not. However, that presents a problem that all the ranged combat feats do not in fact function, so no point blank, no far shot, no dead eye, no ranged weapon mastery...

Far shot doesn't say "Ranged Weapons only" - it says "Projectile weapons, and thrown weapons"


https://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#farShot


unless a DM disregards the Rules Compendium (which can be reasonable in some cases), its definition of Ranged and Melee weapons provides a semi-solid basis for a RAW ruling in favour of Ranged Weapon Mastery with Daggers, depending on what you take "bridging" to mean.

Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that aren’t effective in melee. Some melee weapons can be thrown, bridging these two categories.

[Max Caysey]

Far shot doesn't say "Ranged Weapons only" - it says "Projectile weapons, and thrown weapons"


https://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#farShot

Right... I made a mistake there. It still stands however, that feats that pecifically says ranged weapons, as I undersstand it, can't be applied to melee weapons, even one which can be thown.

[hamishspence]

I think the intent behind the wording is that a crossbow wouldn't hold up too well versus a sword in melee...throwing a melee weapon makes it become a ranged weapon.


It still stands however, that feats that pecifically says ranged weapons, as I undersstand it, can't be applied to melee weapons, even one which can be thown.

A javelin is a Ranged weapon, yet is effective in melee - just poor (suffering a penalty).

Maybe it should be parsed differently, as if a comma was missing?


"Ranged weapons are thrown weapons, or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee"

[Saintheart]

I do actually think you might be on to something there... if you look real close at the Rules Archive article for Ranged Weapons, as I mention in my edit of my previous post, they do differ, strictly speaking, between ranged weapons and thrown weapons and "Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee." Since a dagger is effective in melee, it is strictly speaking not a ranged weapon, but a melee weapon... and throwing melee weapon onto combat does not incur the -4 penalty.

The thing is that its only ranged weapon which get the penalty. A dagger is a melee weapon that can be thrown, thus not a ranged weapon because the definition of a ranged weapon includes the clause that it is ineffective in melee, since the dagger is not meeting the requirement to be a ranged weapon it simply does not incur the penalty...

Am I grasping at straws here or could this actually work?

The question is whether a dagger is a ranged weapon or not... As far as I can tell its not. However, that presents a problem that all the ranged combat feats do not in fact function, so no point blank, no far shot, no dead eye, no ranged weapon mastery...


I think you could be on to something, but more likely grasping at straws. I think the intent behind the wording is that a crossbow wouldn't hold up too well versus a sword in melee...throwing a melee weapon makes it become a ranged weapon.


https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?380897-Throwing-knives

This post, seems to agree with my thesis, that daggers are indeed not a ranged weapon and thus not applicable for ranged weapon feats...


What it comes down to is whether your DM ignores the Rules Compendium, because the Rules Compendium makes the primary argument stronger.

On its own, the PHB/SRD basically says:


Melee and Ranged Weapons
Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.

Others have pointed out in another thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?610597-Blood-Wind-x-Great-Cleave-combo), that phrase can be parsed one of two ways:


Option 1: Ranged weapons are {thrown weapons or projectile weapons} that are not effective in melee.

or


Option 2: Ranged weapons are {thrown weapons} or {projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.}

Option one means most ranged combat feats don't work with daggers. Or spears. The argument is that this was likely what WOTC intended because they just couldn't be bothered building thrown weapons properly and it's a reading that doesn't require extra mistakes to be read into the game.

But then we have the Rules Compendium version, which adds one sentence:


Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that aren’t effective in melee. Some melee weapons can be thrown, bridging these two categories.

I read the Rules Compendium version as attempting to clarify that certain weapons effective in melee -- specifically, the ones designed to be thrown, like daggers or spears, i.e. those that come natively with a range increment -- bridge the categories of melee and ranged weapons, and accordingly count as ranged weapons. And therefore the ranged combat line of feats apply to such weapons. Thus that daggers can benefit from Point Blank Shot and so on.

In short: the Rules Compendium's main effect is to say that some melee weapons count as thrown weapons, and therefore can count as ranged weapons.

The one remaining issue is how many melee weapons the line brings in. It both clarifies and further muddies the waters, because they don't use the phrase 'designed to be thrown', and pretty much any melee weapon in the game can be thrown. When you do, you take a -4 on the attack roll, the critical multiplier is locked to 20/x2, and the weapon is deemed to have a range increment of 10 feet. This is why I have the feeling that they meant it to apply to weapons designed to be thrown, or weapons with the Throwing quality, or weapons under Throw Anything or similar; it's a reading which doesn't require that all melee weapons count as ranged weapons.


Me, what I was always more interested in was always the fact that Point Blank Shot is deemed to apply to attacks with ranged weapons "at ranges up to 30 feet". Since 0 feet ranges are a thing, that arguably means that if a dagger is a ranged weapon - and I think it is, no matter how one tries to squeeze it out - then Point Blank Shot gives you a +1 to attack and damage with a dagger on both its ranged attacks and its melee attacks.

[Max Caysey]

What it comes down to is whether your DM ignores the Rules Compendium, because the Rules Compendium makes the primary argument stronger.

On its own, the PHB/SRD basically says:



Others have pointed out in another thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?610597-Blood-Wind-x-Great-Cleave-combo), that phrase can be parsed one of two ways:



or



Option one means most ranged combat feats don't work with daggers. Or spears. The argument is that this was likely what WOTC intended because they just couldn't be bothered building thrown weapons properly and it's a reading that doesn't require extra mistakes to be read into the game.

But then we have the Rules Compendium version, which adds one sentence:



I read the Rules Compendium version as attempting to clarify that certain weapons effective in melee -- specifically, the ones designed to be thrown, like daggers or spears, i.e. those that come natively with a range increment -- bridge the categories of melee and ranged weapons, and accordingly count as ranged weapons. And therefore the ranged combat line of feats apply to such weapons. Thus that daggers can benefit from Point Blank Shot and so on.

In short: the Rules Compendium's main effect is to say that some melee weapons count as thrown weapons, and therefore can count as ranged weapons.

The one remaining issue is how many melee weapons the line brings in. It both clarifies and further muddies the waters, because they don't use the phrase 'designed to be thrown', and pretty much any melee weapon in the game can be thrown. When you do, you take a -4 on the attack roll, the critical multiplier is locked to 20/x2, and the weapon is deemed to have a range increment of 10 feet. This is why I have the feeling that they meant it to apply to weapons designed to be thrown, or weapons with the Throwing quality, or weapons under Throw Anything or similar; it's a reading which doesn't require that all melee weapons count as ranged weapons.


Me, what I was always more interested in was always the fact that Point Blank Shot is deemed to apply to attacks with ranged weapons "at ranges up to 30 feet". Since 0 feet ranges are a thing, that arguably means that if a dagger is a ranged weapon - and I think it is, no matter how one tries to squeeze it out - then Point Blank Shot gives you a +1 to attack and damage with a dagger on both its ranged attacks and its melee attacks.

That a clear succint way of putting it. There are obvious pros and cons to earch reading, and I can't speak for any DMs but in my view, its another one of thise cases where the game designers didnt finish their job. I would argue that daggers are melee weapons, not only because of the was I read the definition of melee and ranged weapons, but also because dagger is put under melee weapons in the table in the phb. But yes, the definition could be read in different ways thus yielding daggers to be ranged weapons also.

[tiercel]

Gauntlets of Extended Range (MIC) - 2,000 gp - double the range increment specifically for when a weapon or object is thrown . So combined with Far Shot, your range increment is either 30 feet - which is just on sneak attack range, assuming your DM thinks that double of a double is x3 ... or it's 40 feet if you just double the double. The Gauntlets at least arguably double the weapon's range increment rather than your range increment overall, so there's a strong case for saying it stacks with Far Shot.

If it's a matter of countering the range increment penalty only, Bowslinger from Underdark: +2 to the attack roll when throwing or firing a ranged weapon.

These are fair points, the question really being “do you ever want to be in melee?” If that’s a selling point to dagger-fighting (“they do both!”) then the above is all good once you can get it... but if you don’t plan on being in melee if you can help it, you could save gold, item slot, and a feat... much less if you have to play through the low levels where you can’t yet get your dagger range up yet (or you’re sacrificing some other part of your build to get range up sooner than later).

[Melcar]

Here's a big list of daggerthrowing options that I totally have no involvement or relation to (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?596810-The-Subtle-Knife-Options-for-Players-and-DMs-using-the-Dagger)...

Very nice ressource, thanks!


Here is a dagger throwing build I have had some success with as well as some extra resource material that may be of use.

Human
1. Rogue - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Craven (CoR), Far Shot, 2x Flaws
2. Swashbuckler - B: Weapon Finesse
3. Rogue - Two Weapon Fighting
4. Rogue - Penetrating Strike ACF (DS)
5. Swashbuckler - Arcane Stunt ACF (CM)
6. Swordsage - B: Weapon Focus: Shadow Hand weapons, Shadowblade (ToB)
7. Swashbuckler - (For Insightful Strike)
8. Fighter - Targeteer ACF (DragMag 310) {Vital Aim}, Hit-and-Run Tactics ACF (DotU - if your DM is lenient and lets it mix with Targeteer),
9. Fighter - Targeteer ACF - Rapid Shot, Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10. Swordsage - (for Assassins Stance)
11. Master Thrower - B: Quick Draw, {Thrown Weapon Trick: Palm Throw}
12. Master Thrower - Dead Eye (DragMag 304)
13. Master Thrower - {Thrown Weapon Trick: Two With One Blow}
14. Master Thrower - B: Snatch Arrows
15. Master Thrower - B: Improved Critical, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, {Thrown Weapon Trick: Weak Spot}
16. Invisible Blade
17. Invisible Blade
18. Invisible Blade - Improved Precise Shot
19. Invisible Blade
20. Invisible Blade

*If you don't want or need Improved Precise Shot, you could potentially change the feat order by taking Rapid Shot at 9th level and take the Arrow Swarm ability of Targeteer. This moves Improved Two Weapon Fighting to 15th level and Great Improved Two Weapon Fighting to 18th. While this will make you initially a bit less effective in melee and range, once you hit 15th level it basically evens out especially when considering the Thrown Weapon Trick: Weak Spot.*

For throwing builds you need to look into ways to either carry enough daggers (not so good option) or magically generate an infinite supply of daggers (better option). There are three items that can work well for dagger throwing builds with some minor DM tweaking. The first is the Gloves of Endless Javelins (MIC). The main change being changing the javelins to daggers (with maybe a corresponding change in damage from d6 to d4). The second item is the Gauntlet of Infinite Blades (MIC). It can produce daggers, but only 1 per round because of its Swift action activation. The change here would be changing Swift action to Free action. The third item is the Quiver of Anariel, posted in the spoiler below. The change here would be "quiver" to "bandoleer" and "arrow(s)" to "dagger(s)".

Quiver of Anariel

Quiver of Anariel:Quivers of Anariel appear to be typical arrow containers capable of holding a score of arrows. However, the quivers automatically replenish themselves with standard or magical arrows, such that they are always full. Some quivers also create arrows made of special materials, such as adamantine, cold iron, or alchemical silver.

Once an arrow it taken from the quiver, it must be used within 1 round or it vanishes.

Moderate conjuration; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, magic weapon, minor creation; Price 28,000 gp (standard arrows), 29,000 gp (masterwork arrows), 32,000 gp (+1 arrows), 44,000 gp (+2 arrows), 64,000 gp (+3 arrows), 92,000 gp (+4 arrows), 128,000 gp (+5 arrows); Add an additional +6,000 gp for adamantine arrows, +4,005 gp for cold iron arrows, or +200 gp for alchemical silver arrows; Weight 1 lb.

Thankfully the article is saved here https://web.archive.org/web/20070401150041/http:/ww2.wizards.com/Books/Wizards/?doc=fr_lonedrowstats since WOTC decided to delete the original posting.


Other magic items you may want to look into:
Rogue's Vest (MIC)
Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (ToM)
Bracers of the Hunter (SoX)

Here is some light reading that may help you with the more Rogue based parts of the build.
The Rogue Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?156350-3-5-The-Rogue-Handbook-A-Fistful-of-d6)

Sweet stuff, thanks!



What it comes down to is whether your DM ignores the Rules Compendium, because the Rules Compendium makes the primary argument stronger.

On its own, the PHB/SRD basically says:



Others have pointed out in another thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?610597-Blood-Wind-x-Great-Cleave-combo), that phrase can be parsed one of two ways:



or



Option one means most ranged combat feats don't work with daggers. Or spears. The argument is that this was likely what WOTC intended because they just couldn't be bothered building thrown weapons properly and it's a reading that doesn't require extra mistakes to be read into the game.

But then we have the Rules Compendium version, which adds one sentence:



I read the Rules Compendium version as attempting to clarify that certain weapons effective in melee -- specifically, the ones designed to be thrown, like daggers or spears, i.e. those that come natively with a range increment -- bridge the categories of melee and ranged weapons, and accordingly count as ranged weapons. And therefore the ranged combat line of feats apply to such weapons. Thus that daggers can benefit from Point Blank Shot and so on.

In short: the Rules Compendium's main effect is to say that some melee weapons count as thrown weapons, and therefore can count as ranged weapons.

The one remaining issue is how many melee weapons the line brings in. It both clarifies and further muddies the waters, because they don't use the phrase 'designed to be thrown', and pretty much any melee weapon in the game can be thrown. When you do, you take a -4 on the attack roll, the critical multiplier is locked to 20/x2, and the weapon is deemed to have a range increment of 10 feet. This is why I have the feeling that they meant it to apply to weapons designed to be thrown, or weapons with the Throwing quality, or weapons under Throw Anything or similar; it's a reading which doesn't require that all melee weapons count as ranged weapons.


Me, what I was always more interested in was always the fact that Point Blank Shot is deemed to apply to attacks with ranged weapons "at ranges up to 30 feet". Since 0 feet ranges are a thing, that arguably means that if a dagger is a ranged weapon - and I think it is, no matter how one tries to squeeze it out - then Point Blank Shot gives you a +1 to attack and damage with a dagger on both its ranged attacks and its melee attacks.

Very true, I don't know exactly what my DM will say... however, this way of putting it will surely help the discussion either way. Thanks!


Thanks again to all who participated in this discussion, I will be looking through all the build and suggestions over the next few days!

[Saintheart]

Incidentally, there is one other bit of text that would seem to make it pretty hard to say a dagger isn't a thrown weapon. Page 113 of the PHB itself:


Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his or her STR modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons...

On 112 we have the text that


Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or other projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.

On 114, arrows are explicitly said, when used as an improvised melee weapon, to deal damage as a dagger of its size. Daggers are not forced to the same nerfing.

The table on page 116 - and whilst text trumps table, there is nothing in the PHB text that actually is inconsistent with the table on this point - lists a dagger as a light melee weapon. (The same goes for the spear, the light hammer, the trident, and the throwing axe - all listed as melee weapons.) And you know what each of these melee weapons has in common? Every single one has an explicit range increment. Every single one can be used as a thrown weapon, but every single one is also a melee weapon. These melee weapons are just the only ones that qualify as thrown weapons.

The same table has a separate category for ranged weapons, amongst which are listed the dart and javelin. Shuriken and Nets are listed as exotic ranged weapons - not melee weapons.

In short, the distinction between "thrown weapons" and "projectile weapons that are not effective in melee" is a marked one. The former are those weapons called out by page 112 of the PHB, and which are also melee weapons. The latter are, in short, the dart and the javelin. (Also see why the Tormtor School feat exists: because they wanted to make javelins useable, or "effective" if you will, in combat.)

That is, the PHB itself explicitly says a dagger is a thrown weapon, and also says it is a melee weapon. That's consistent with both the PHB text that some ranged weapons can be used in melee and consistent with the Rules Compendium version that goes back the other way to say that certain melee weapons can also be ranged weapons, bridging the two categories. In short: a dagger is a ranged weapon. Point Blank Shot et. al. by RAW applies to all of its attacks, whether melee or ranged, because Point Blank Shot doesn't make a distinction between ranged and melee attacks.

[Max Caysey]

Incidentally, there is one other bit of text that would seem to make it pretty hard to say a dagger isn't a thrown weapon. Page 113 of the PHB itself:



On 112 we have the text that



On 114, arrows are explicitly said, when used as an improvised melee weapon, to deal damage as a dagger of its size. Daggers are not forced to the same nerfing.

The table on page 116 - and whilst text trumps table, there is nothing in the PHB text that actually is inconsistent with the table on this point - lists a dagger as a light melee weapon. (The same goes for the spear, the light hammer, the trident, and the throwing axe - all listed as melee weapons.) And you know what each of these melee weapons has in common? Every single one has an explicit range increment. Every single one can be used as a thrown weapon, but every single one is also a melee weapon. These melee weapons are just the only ones that qualify as thrown weapons.

The same table has a separate category for ranged weapons, amongst which are listed the dart and javelin. Shuriken and Nets are listed as exotic ranged weapons - not melee weapons.

In short, the distinction between "thrown weapons" and "projectile weapons that are not effective in melee" is a marked one. The former are those weapons called out by page 112 of the PHB, and which are also melee weapons. The latter are, in short, the dart and the javelin. (Also see why the Tormtor School feat exists: because they wanted to make javelins useable, or "effective" if you will, in combat.)

That is, the PHB itself explicitly says a dagger is a thrown weapon, and also says it is a melee weapon. That's consistent with both the PHB text that some ranged weapons can be used in melee and consistent with the Rules Compendium version that goes back the other way to say that certain melee weapons can also be ranged weapons, bridging the two categories. In short: a dagger is a ranged weapon. Point Blank Shot et. al. by RAW applies to all of its attacks, whether melee or ranged, because Point Blank Shot doesn't make a distinction between ranged and melee attacks.

So, the argument was never about whether a dagger was a thrown weapon, because that was clearly evident by the quote you provide. The argument was about whether a thrown weapon also is considered a ranged weapon. And that is not abundantly clear.

The argument can certainly be made that yes, a thrown weapon is a ranged weapon, but it all depends on how the sentence is parsed - as people have already brought up. The way I read that sentence is that a thrown weapon is only a ranged weapon when its not melee capable. Why? Well because of the lack of a comma, hence the part that says "weapons that are not effective in melee" coves both the thrown weapons and the projectile weapons.

The argument can certainly be made though, that indeed any thrown weapon is a ranged weapon, especially seeing as the Rules Compendium (pp 150) adds a sentence calling that some melee weapons
can be thrown, bridging the two categories (melee and ranged respectively).

That little sentence might very well mean that thrown weapons are supposed to count as both melee and ranged - which does make a lot of sense!

However, that is not explicitly stated, only hinted at. Therefore it would be up to the individual DM to make the call.

As this discussion has progressed I would rule as a DM that melee weapons that can be thrown - like the dagger - would indeed count as both a melee weapon and a ranged weapon!

[crankykobold]

I dont remember the exact build but I worked out a dragonblooded halfing that used bard with dragon fire inspiration, draconic heritage with amethyst dragon for force damage and master thrower.
I think at level 15 it was 6 darts a round at 4d6 force damage vs touch ac for almost everything. He carried a bunch of non magic mithril darts.

[ChudoJogurt]

You can use combo of Duskblade 3+/Warblade 1+ and Bloodstorm Blade 2 to channel spells via thrown daggers. With Practiced Spellcaster (or just more Duskblade levels) that can give you extra 5d6 electric damage on your throw or some useful Martial Maneuver options from Warblade (e.g. Exorcism of Steel), as well as some limited utility and buffs from Duskblade.

Probably not the best build damage-wise, especially if Travel Devotion is on the table, but it gives you a bit more options than just throwing a billion d6's at the enemy. It does somewhat gimp your skills, tho.


Also you can avoid taking Quickdraw by tacking Least Return Crystal on every dagger you own.

[gorfnab]

I dont remember the exact build but I worked out a dragonblooded halfing that used bard with dragon fire inspiration, draconic heritage with amethyst dragon for force damage and master thrower.
I think at level 15 it was 6 darts a round at 4d6 force damage vs touch ac for almost everything. He carried a bunch of non magic mithril darts.

Was is similar to this one?
Flick, the Flaming Knife Flinger (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=5140212&postcount=11)