Epic Belt of Magnificence

[RNightstalker]

The Belt of Magnificence is a gem from the Miniatures Handbook that no sane DM would allow, let alone into an epic campaign. Anybody with better experience at Math want to take a shot at helping me figure out some pricing for a +8, +10, and +12?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It's 200k (technically the RAW max value for a non-epic item) for a +6 enhancement to all six ability scores. Whereas six individual items of a +6 to each stat would total 216k, so it's only a discount of 16k gp, or 7.4%.

Most characters wouldn't benefit much from a +6 enhancement to every stat, and would spend at most 180k for a +6 enhancement to five stats. The real draw of the Belt of Magnificence is combining six items into one, freeing up five item slots for other effects. However, given MIC p234 which allows you to add an enhancement bonus to an ability score to an existing item of the appropriate slot for the same price as a standalone item of the same bonus, the Belt of Magnificence actually occupies one more item slot than it needs to.

In short, the Belt of Magnificence was only good until the Magic Item Compendium was published. While the belt was good, it was only good because it freed up other item slots, the slightly discounted price was just a bonus. In modern 3.5 edition, you shouldn't be occupying any of your item slots with an enhancement bonus alone, so the belt has completely lost its luster. Especially considering that the belt slot is extremely high-value, as you've got a Monk's Belt, Belt of Battle, and Belt of the Wide Earth to name a few all competing for that spot.

[RNightstalker]

It's 200k (technically the RAW max value for a non-epic item) for a +6 enhancement to all six ability scores. Whereas six individual items of a +6 to each stat would total 216k, so it's only a discount of 16k gp, or 7.4%.

{Scrubbed}

EDIT: I failed the Knowledge: Math check as for some reason I decided it would be a great idea to think of the 16k off of the 200k price. So as the saying goes:
"My bad".

[ExLibrisMortis]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}
What?

6*36 000 = 216 000
200 000/216 000 = 0.9259

Compared to buying six items granting +6 to an ability score, the belt of magnificence costs 7.4% less.


Now, maybe your point is that he didn't answer your question... but he gave you the exact tools you need to answer your question, and also adjusted your view on the value/utility of the item (hopefully), so... what more do you want?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

216000 x 0.074 = ~16000

Going from 216k to 200k is a discount of 7.4% from the original price.

[Afghanistan]

So the Belt of Magnificence is bare none, the biggest waist of a belt slot you could invest in. Now that I've gotten that pun out of the way. The Belt of Magnificence is the single worst priced out item in the game. All of that aside, the costs for an EPIC Belt of Magnificence (which isn't listed anywhere) are a sense screwed because of this little rule here:


Use the guidelines for nonepic magic items to determine the market price of an epic magic item, with one addition: If the item gives a bonus beyond the limit allowed in for normal, nonepic magic items, multiply the portion of the market price derived from that characteristic by 10. Some epic characteristics, such as caster level, don’t trigger this multiplier.

This modifier applies for every single characteristic that exceeds this. Meaning for the Epic Belt of Magnificence, you would need to apply this 6 times. The Epic level Handbook gives a notice of what might be beyond the limit for a nonepic magic item as well in the form of a handy list.


Grants a bonus on attacks or damage greater than +5.
Grants an enhancement bonus to armor higher than +5.
Has a special ability with a market price modifier greater than +5.
Grants an armor bonus of greater than +10 (not including magic armor’s enhancement bonus).
Grants a natural armor, deflection, or resistance bonus greater than +5.
Grants an enhancement bonus to an ability score greater than +6.
Grants an enhancement bonus on a skill check greater than +30.
Mimics a spell of an effective level higher than 9th.
Has a caster level above 20th.
Has a market price above 200,000 gp, not including material costs for armor or weapons, material component- or experience point-based costs, or additional value for intelligent items.


The note we are looking for is specifically #6. "Grants an enhancement bonus to an ability score greater than +6." As such, the Epic Belt of Magnificence would follow all of the normal rules for magic item creation with bonuses, and then multiply the price by 10. For example, for a +8 bonus, you would be spending at market price 8,960,000‬gp and 14,000,000gp for +10, and then 20,160,000‬ for +12.

Mildly embarrassing math error, but that is very clearly bonus^2 * 1000. I did 2,000 instead for some reason in remembrance for some old house rule a GM from yesteryear decided.


3,840,000 fpr +8
6,000,000 for +10
8,640,000‬gp for +12






It's 200k (technically the RAW max value for a non-epic item) for a +6 enhancement to all six ability scores. Whereas six individual items of a +6 to each stat would total 216k, so it's only a discount of 16k gp, or 7.4%.

Would you like to re-roll that Knowledge: Math check?

He is correct though? Given that there is no Epic Belt of Magnificence in any published material that I can find, and the Epic Magic Item Creation rules are as borked as the rest of the ELH for determining the value of magic items? I think Biff's formula, while not exactly cheap or consistent (the +2 Belt of Magnificence, for example, rounds up from 24,000 to 25,000gp, and then the +4 rounds down from 192,000gp to 100,000gp) is generally more acceptable. In that case the items would cost


3,840,000gp for +8
6,000,000gp for +10
8,640,000‬gp for +12


This is before any potential pricing modifiers mind you that might be derived from Biff's formula. Which, for such a weak item at such a high level of play? This is acceptable. Epic Magic Items are usually hit or miss.

Oof. Still right, but oof :smallannoyed:

[Rebel7284]

According to Epic item rules, one of the things that makes an item epic is:

Grants an enhancement bonus to an ability score greater than +6.

and then


Market Price
Use the guidelines for nonepic magic items to determine the market price of an epic magic item, with one addition: If the item gives a bonus beyond the limit allowed in for normal, nonepic magic items, multiply the portion of the market price derived from that characteristic by 10. Some epic characteristics, such as caster level, don’t trigger this multiplier.

So what is the formula for Belt of Magnificence?

We don't know for sure, but it seems to be ROUND(normal cost * 6)

Normal cost for an enhancement bonus is 1000 * Bonus ^ 2

Normal cost is 1000 * 8^2 =64,000

ROUND(64,000 * 6) = ROUND(384,000) = 400,000

Multiply by epic multiplier = 4 million for +8

6 Million for +10

9 Million for +12

12 Million for +14

etc.


edit: darn ninjas. Anyway, your results may vary by exactly how you apply the ROUND function.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Belt of Magnificence +2 is 25,000 gp
Six +2 enhancement bonuses alone are 24,000 gp, so it's 1,000 gp higher. (+4.1667%)

Belt of Magnificence +4 is 100,000 gp
Six +4 enhancement bonuses alone are 96,000 gp, so it's 4,000 gp higher. (+4.1667%)

Belt of Magnificence +6 is 200,000 gp.
Six +6 enhancement bonuses alone are 216,000 gp, so it's 16,000 gp lower. (-7.4074%)

Given that the core rules state that any item with a base price higher than 200,000 gp is an epic item (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/basics.htm), I'll assume that the +6 version was arbitrarily kept within that boundary, and subsequent belts of delusional magnificence would follow the 4.1666 repeating percent markup.


Extrapolating on the enhancement bonuses is easy, it's bonus squared x 1,000 gp.
Six +8 enhancement bonuses would be 384,000 gp, markup puts it at exactly 400,000 gp. Epic items are at x10, so it's 4,000,000 gp.
Six +10 enhancement bonuses would be 600,000 gp, markup puts it at exactly 625,000 gp. Epic items are at x10, so it's 6,250,000 gp.
Six +12 enhancement bonuses would be 864,000 gp, markup puts it at exactly 900,000 gp. Epic items are at x10, so it's 9,000,000 gp.
Six +14 enhancement bonuses would be 1,176,000 gp, markup puts it at exactly 1,225,000 gp. Epic items are at x10, so it's 12,250,000 gp.

[RNightstalker]

Now, maybe your point is that he didn't answer your question...

I find that happens far too often in the playground unfortunately...see below...\/ \/


So the Belt of Magnificence is bare none, the biggest waist of a belt slot you could invest in. Now that I've gotten that pun out of the way. The Belt of Magnificence is the single worst priced out item in the game.

Umm...thanks?

All of that aside, the costs for an EPIC Belt of Magnificence
(which isn't listed anywhere) are a sense screwed because of this little rule here:
^^that's why I made the post...
Mildly embarrassing math error, but that is very clearly bonus^2 * 1000. I did 2,000 instead for some reason in remembrance for some old house rule a GM from yesteryear decided.
^^Happens to the best of us, no worries.



According to Epic item rules, one of the things that makes an item epic is:


and then


So what is the formula for Belt of Magnificence?

We don't know for sure, but it seems to be ROUND(normal cost * 6)

Normal cost for an enhancement bonus is 1000 * Bonus ^ 2

Normal cost is 1000 * 8^2 =64,000

ROUND(64,000 * 6) = ROUND(384,000) = 400,000

Multiply by epic multiplier = 4 million for +8

6 Million for +10

9 Million for +12

12 Million for +14

etc.


edit: darn ninjas. Anyway, your results may vary by exactly how you apply the ROUND function.

Thanks for staying on target!


Belt of Magnificence +2 is 25,000 gp
Six +2 enhancement bonuses alone are 24,000 gp, so it's 1,000 gp higher. (+4.1667%)

Belt of Magnificence +4 is 100,000 gp
Six +4 enhancement bonuses alone are 96,000 gp, so it's 4,000 gp higher. (+4.1667%)

Belt of Magnificence +6 is 200,000 gp.
Six +6 enhancement bonuses alone are 216,000 gp, so it's 16,000 gp lower. (-7.4074%)



Ah, math...just what I was looking for.

[Biggus]

Most characters wouldn't benefit much from a +6 enhancement to every stat, and would spend at most 180k for a +6 enhancement to five stats. The real draw of the Belt of Magnificence is combining six items into one, freeing up five item slots for other effects. However, given MIC p234 which allows you to add an enhancement bonus to an ability score to an existing item of the appropriate slot for the same price as a standalone item of the same bonus, the Belt of Magnificence actually occupies one more item slot than it needs to.

In short, the Belt of Magnificence was only good until the Magic Item Compendium was published. While the belt was good, it was only good because it freed up other item slots, the slightly discounted price was just a bonus. In modern 3.5 edition, you shouldn't be occupying any of your item slots with an enhancement bonus alone, so the belt has completely lost its luster. Especially considering that the belt slot is extremely high-value, as you've got a Monk's Belt, Belt of Battle, and Belt of the Wide Earth to name a few all competing for that spot.

This is important: if the MIC rules are in play, the price needs to be dropped as nobody except a few rare multiclass combinations needs all 6 ability scores high, I'd say to maybe 4.5-5 times the price of a single ability score item. This would come out to:

+2: 18-20,000GP
+4: 72-80,000GP
+6: 162-180,000GP
+8: 2,880,000-3,200,000GP
+10: 4,500,000-5,000,000GP
+12: 6,480,000-7,200,000GP

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

This is important: if the MIC rules are in play, the price needs to be dropped as nobody except a few rare multiclass combinations needs all 6 ability scores high, I'd say to maybe 4.5-5 times the price of a single ability score item. This would come out to:

+2: 18-20,000GP
+4: 72-80,000GP
+6: 162-180,000GP
+8: 2,880,000-3,200,000GP
+10: 4,500,000-5,000,000GP
+12: 6,480,000-7,200,000GP

Not really. The Belt of Magnificence was extremely good for a particular niche reason when MH was first published. Since then there's been a significant magic item power creep, and the belt's niche was made completely obsolete by the meta. It doesn't need to be adjusted to make it relevant again, because that's just adding more item power creep to the game.

Back in 3.0, Sword and Fist had a few comparable items: The Belt of Mighty Prowess, +6 enhancement to Str and Con for 108k gp, and the Headband of Perfect Excellence, +6 enhancement to Str, Dex, and Wis for 180k gp. That's a 60% markup on the price of the standalone items for the same bonuses, to put them in a single item slot. By comparison, the Belt of Magnificence is downright reasonable, that is until MIC comes into play.

In the current state of MIC's 3.5 edition, there's no place for a Belt of Magnificence any more, because you're not going to expend one of your limited item slots for an enhancement bonus to any of your stats.

[RNightstalker]

In the current state of MIC's 3.5 edition, there's no place for a Belt of Magnificence any more, because you're not going to expend one of your limited item slots for an enhancement bonus to any of your stats.

In the current state of MIC's 3.5 edition, you're not really limited by slots much anymore.

[Max Caysey]

A belt with 12 to all stats would cost 1.440.000x6= 8.640.000Gp

[Biggus]

Not really. The Belt of Magnificence was extremely good for a particular niche reason when MH was first published. Since then there's been a significant magic item power creep, and the belt's niche was made completely obsolete by the meta. It doesn't need to be adjusted to make it relevant again, because that's just adding more item power creep to the game. [...]

In the current state of MIC's 3.5 edition, there's no place for a Belt of Magnificence any more, because you're not going to expend one of your limited item slots for an enhancement bonus to any of your stats.

I dunno, I lot of people seem to like the idea of a Belt of Magnificence (instant Batman, just add belt?) but very few builds actually need it. In the great majority of cases at least two of the ability increases will do very little or nothing to increase their overall power, so I don't see that allowing it at a reduced price contributes to power creep very much.

[Troacctid]

Back in 3.0, Sword and Fist had a few comparable items: The Belt of Mighty Prowess, +6 enhancement to Str and Con for 108k gp, and the Headband of Perfect Excellence, +6 enhancement to Str, Dex, and Wis for 180k gp. That's a 60% markup on the price of the standalone items for the same bonuses, to put them in a single item slot.
They were obsoleted long before MIC. In 3.0, combining multiple items in one slot doubled the price, but in 3.5, it only increases the price by 50%. As of the revised DMG, generic versions of those items would cost 90k and 144k respectively.

[Efrate]

How would the belt +6 come out using the custom item rules starting with say belt of giant strength +6 as the base item?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

How would the belt +6 come out using the custom item rules starting with say belt of giant strength +6 as the base item?

That depends on whether you're using DMG rules, or MIC rules.

In either case, you're looking at a 50% markup on each one that doesn't have a body slot affinity for the belt slot (DMG p288 sidebar). That lists the belt slot as being for physical improvement, so the three physical stats are normal price, the three mental stats are all at +50%.

MIC rules, it's the same price to add the effect to another item as it is to make a standalone item of that bonus, provided the slot is appropriate. We can take the above guideline to add all six (or the remaining five) to the belt slot. In this case it's 36k x (1+1+1+1.5+1.5+1.5) = 270,000 gp.
If you switch it to a slot that has an affinity for all six, such as a robe (multiple effects) or maybe a ring (not listed, but can hold pretty much anything), it's instead 36k x 6 = 216,000 gp.

DMG rules, you're looking for the sidebar on page 282. Let's calculate the multiple similar abilities (which is all at x2 for not occupying any body slot at all) and the multiple different abilities versions.
Multiple Different Abilities, the base price of each one after the first is increased by 50%. So it's 36k x (1+1.5+1.5+2+2+2) = 360,000 gp.
If you switch it to a slot that has an affinity for all six, such as a robe (multiple effects) or maybe a ring (not listed, but can hold pretty much anything), it's instead 36k x (1+1.5+1.5+1.5+1.5+1.5) = 306,000 gp.
Multiple Similar Abilities not occupying an item slot, you avoid the body slot affinity markup and also discount each one after the first, but each gets doubled for not occupying a slot (Table 7-33). So you're looking at 2 x 36k x (1+0.75+0.5+0.5+0.5+0.5) = 270,000 gp, same price as the MIC math belt but not occupying an item slot at all.

Basically, when making custom items, if you have multiple high-priced effects that are all similar enough, you want to combine it onto one item that doesn't occupy a slot.

[Elves]

In the current state of MIC's 3.5 edition, you're not really limited by slots much anymore.

Which is probably a bad thing for the game if taken to its full extent with the combining items guidelines, but the rules for adding the basic stuff like +stat are a definite good and are clear and uncontroversial.

There's no need to mourn the belt of magnificence because MIC gave a better solution.

[RNightstalker]

Which is probably a bad thing for the game if taken to its full extent with the combining items guidelines, but the rules for adding the basic stuff like +stat are a definite good and are clear and uncontroversial.

There's no need to mourn the belt of magnificence because MIC gave a better solution.

{Scrubbed} Why choose between a Monk's Belt and Belt of Battle when you can have a Monk's Belt of Battle for 31000gp?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote} Why choose between a Monk's Belt and Belt of Battle when you can have a Monk's Belt of Battle for 31000gp?

Because that's not RAW, it's only a guideline to help your DM determine what it would cost, if they're even going to allow it to exist in their game setting at all.

MIC p234 is RAW, not a guideline:

One of the most frustrating roadblocks to using interesting,
unusual magic items is that they take up body slots that you need
for an ability-boosting item (such as gauntlets of ogre power), a ring of
protection, or another must-have item. To address this issue, Magic
Item Compendium presents official rules for adding common item
effects to existing magic items.

[RNightstalker]

Because that's not RAW, it's only a guideline to help your DM determine what it would cost, if they're even going to allow it to exist in their game setting at all.

MIC p234 is RAW, not a guideline:

It actually is RAW, if you care to read three paragraphs above your quote.

[Elves]

Because that's not RAW, it's only a guideline to help your DM determine what it would cost, if they're even going to allow it to exist in their game setting at all.

MIC p234 is RAW, not a guideline:

by the way though, that language doesn't include combining items besides the "common" effects shown on that table. I dont have it at hand, what language does it use for its other item combination guidelines? Are those presented as official and indisputable or just guidelines?

[Afghanistan]

It actually is RAW, if you care to read three paragraphs above your quote.


It's recommended that you add new magical abilities only to items that occupy the same body slot as the added effect would normally occupy. For example, it's okay to add the power of boots of striding and springing to slippers of spider climbing, since both of those items occupy the same body slot. However, adding the power of boots of striding and springing to a cloak of resistance doesn't make much sense. This isn't a hard and fast rule, but it's a reasonable guide that helps maintain some level of flavor and verisimilitude in the magic item system.

This is written out as a guideline, not a hard and fast rule. Presuming this is what you are referring to? :smallconfused:

[NotASpiderSwarm]

So under what circumstances would a character actually need a Belt of Magnificence? Given the way skill points work, there's no reason for anyone except a Wizard, Warblade, Factotum, Artificer, Beguiler, Warmage, or Archivist to need +Int. Of those, only an Archivist or Factotum needs Wis for anything but Will saves, and neither of them needs Cha for anything except skill checks. Am I missing something, some weird build that needs 6 good scores, or is this item purely so that DMs can drop it into a dragon hoard and watch the players fight over it?

[Afghanistan]

So under what circumstances would a character actually need a Belt of Magnificence? Given the way skill points work, there's no reason for anyone except a Wizard, Warblade, Factotum, Artificer, Beguiler, Warmage, or Archivist to need +Int. Of those, only an Archivist or Factotum needs Wis for anything but Will saves, and neither of them needs Cha for anything except skill checks. Am I missing something, some weird build that needs 6 good scores, or is this item purely so that DMs can drop it into a dragon hoard and watch the players fight over it?

Sold for 100k gp, you buy two people in the party +6 Enhancement bonus items for their class, and then pocket the remaining 28k, so even with that premise, this item is trash loot. :smallsigh:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

So under what circumstances would a character actually need a Belt of Magnificence? Given the way skill points work, there's no reason for anyone except a Wizard, Warblade, Factotum, Artificer, Beguiler, Warmage, or Archivist to need +Int. Of those, only an Archivist or Factotum needs Wis for anything but Will saves, and neither of them needs Cha for anything except skill checks. Am I missing something, some weird build that needs 6 good scores, or is this item purely so that DMs can drop it into a dragon hoard and watch the players fight over it?

Maybe some kind of absurd Warblade Bard build with Arcane Disciple, but that's the only thing I can think of.


Sold for 100k gp, you buy two people in the party +6 Enhancement bonus items for their class, and then pocket the remaining 28k, so even with that premise, this item is trash loot. :smallsigh:

Someone had better have Mercantile Background, and sell it for 150k instead. Or Ancestral Relic, they buy it from the party for 100k, get 25k back in a party of four, and add 200k to their relic's magical properties.

[Elves]

Maybe some kind of absurd Warblade Bard build with Arcane Disciple, but that's the only thing I can think of.
If your dump stats are low you may want the ability damage buffer on them.

[the_tick_rules]

So under what circumstances would a character actually need a Belt of Magnificence? Given the way skill points work, there's no reason for anyone except a Wizard, Warblade, Factotum, Artificer, Beguiler, Warmage, or Archivist to need +Int. Of those, only an Archivist or Factotum needs Wis for anything but Will saves, and neither of them needs Cha for anything except skill checks. Am I missing something, some weird build that needs 6 good scores, or is this item purely so that DMs can drop it into a dragon hoard and watch the players fight over it?

Everyone would benefit from more skill points. Granted a fighter has less magnificent options of skills than most but more skill points from an int boost in future levels is always good. Same for the other things you mentioned. Anything that benefits any stat may not be a min maxed boost but it always has potential depending on how clever you are at applying them.

[Buufreak]

Except int from items is temporary and doesn't grant skill points.

[the_tick_rules]

Oh right, I forgot that. But still have a higher intelligence score increases your modifier bonus to the skills, it's a lesser boost but it still helps.

[JNAProductions]

Oh right, I forgot that. But still have a higher intelligence score increases your modifier bonus to the skills, it's a lesser boost but it still helps.

What was in question was not "Does it provide a buff?"

What was in question is what build would that be WORTH IT on. Yes, a Fighter will gain +3 to every single skill-but when other people are rocking +30 on the low end, +3 is basically irrelevant.

[RNightstalker]

This is written out as a guideline, not a hard and fast rule. Presuming this is what you are referring to? :smallconfused:

And in this case we only need to go back one paragraph.


So under what circumstances would a character actually need a Belt of Magnificence? Given the way skill points work, there's no reason for anyone except a Wizard, Warblade, Factotum, Artificer, Beguiler, Warmage, or Archivist to need +Int. Of those, only an Archivist or Factotum needs Wis for anything but Will saves, and neither of them needs Cha for anything except skill checks. Am I missing something, some weird build that needs 6 good scores, or is this item purely so that DMs can drop it into a dragon hoard and watch the players fight over it?

I would dare to say over 90% of listed items aren't needed. Sometimes the playground is so focused on maximum optimization, they forget that not everyone plays for that. Some people say "this item fits this character" and then go get it.{Scrubbed}


What was in question was not "Does it provide a buff?"

What was in question is

What was in question is how do we price an Epic Belt of Magnificence, and that question has been answered.

[Powerdork]

And in this case we only need to go back one paragraph.

{Scrubbed} At least indicate with the word 'virtually'.

[RNightstalker]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote} At least indicate with the word 'virtually'.

Not smelling what you're cooking there...

EDIT: I gotcha now, I was just preoccupied {Scrubbed}

[Afghanistan]

And in this case we only need to go back one paragraph.

{Scrubbed}


You can add new magical abilities to a magic item with virtually no restrictions. The cost and prerequisites to do this are the same as if the item was not magical. Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword, with the cost to create it being equal to that of a +2 vorpal longsword minus the cost of a +1 longsword (98,315 - 2,315 = 96,000 gp). The character improving the magic item must meet the same prerequisites as if he were creating the item from scratch.

So in essence, your argument literally only works if you ignore all context presented in the following paragraph. Especially if that paragraph is followed by a statement that flat out says "This isn't a rule." :smallsigh:

[RNightstalker]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}
So in essence, your argument literally only works if you ignore all context presented in the following paragraph. Especially if that paragraph is followed by a statement that flat out says "This isn't a rule." :smallsigh:

{Scrubbed}

[Afghanistan]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

{Scrubbed}
Regardless, you've gotten your answer, how you choose to house rule it is entirely up to you and your GM.

[RNightstalker]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}
Regardless, you've gotten your answer, how you choose to house rule it is entirely up to you and your GM.

{Scrubbed}

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: Thread closed.