Burst vs. Skate. Is Burst ever useful outside of Nomad Talents?

[Segev]

TL; DR summary: Why is burst considered so good that it is restricted to the Nomad list, when literally any Psion or Wilder can pick up skate? Why would even a Nomad take burst as a power known over skate?


Skate (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/s/skate/) lasts 1 min./level, grants +15 ft. enhancement to land speed (+30 downhill, +0 uphill), and is a psion/wilder 1 power whose augmentation lets you add more people who benefit from it. It costs 1 pp plus 1 pp per extra target.

Burst (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/b/burst/) is a Nomad-specific psionic power that, if you take it as a Nomad power, is level 1 and grants a +10 ft. enhancement to land speed for a single round. Its augment is an additional +10 ft. of speed, but is 4 pp per dose. So, at 5th level, you can augment it by spending 5 pp for a +20 ft. burst of land speed for one round.

Compare to skate, which, at 5th level, is 1 pp for +15 ft. of land speed and lasts for 5 minutes.

Admittedly, burst gives you its bonus even if you're going uphill, and, at level 9, can get you +30, at level 13 +40, and at level 17 can get you +50. But for that +50 ft. of land speed (land speed, not the flight or the like you're probably used to using as a high-level psion, ESPECIALLY a Nomad whose powers are theoretically all about movement and whose level 17 Nomad's Step is 90 feet of teleport as a standard action assuming you haven't taken the feat that makes it a move action), you spent 17 pp. Meanwhile, flight (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/f/flight/), which you've had since level 7, most likely, gives you 60 ft. of flying speed. Sure, burst fully augmented gets you up to 80 for one round, but flight cost you only 7 pp and can't be augmented by burst, and is lasting 17 minutes. And doesn't cost you a swift action on the majority of rounds you're using it.

Now, burst is nicer if you take it as a Nomad Talent, but then you're almost using a different power entirely (I mean, you have to take the power as a power known to even have the option to augment it, still), because the cost drops from 1 pp to maintaining your psi focus. So at low level, it's +10 ft. per round unless you have something you need that psi focus for. It's not even "expend your psi focus," which is why it's actually useful as a Nomad Talent - trade a swift action for +10 ft. movement. Not bad.

But as a Nomad Talent, it isn't competing with skate for powers known space.

So, ignoring it as a Nomad Talent for a moment, why would you pick burst over skate as a power known? Are you going to be running up hill so often and down hill so rarely that the higher cost for extra distance moved becomes worth it? Is the augment really that good?

Again, burst is for some reason a Nomad-only power. You need to have 2nd level powers and spend a feat to get it if you're not a Nomad. And I'm trying to figure out why you'd take it as a Nomad when you could take skate. Let alone why you'd spend a feat on it when as a non-Nomad you could already have skate. They don't even stack!

[DrMartin]

Only thing Burst has going for it is the swift action casting time - you don´t have to use an action to cast it in combat, or have the foresight to cast it before the encounter. Whenever you need to zip, manifest burst and you can still double move, withdraw, or run at your enhanced speed.

On the other hand Skate can be cast on objects which adds another dimension of versatility to the power - i would say that among the two it is definitely the better power, and that burst is there primarily only to be picked up by Nomads as an at-will talent.

[Ramza00]

Me looking at this discussion and if I were DM I would allow the player to port both Expeditious Retreat, Swift and Expeditious Retreat as a single 1st level power (swift only lasts 1 round, standard lasts 1 minute per level.)

[Segev]

Only thing Burst has going for it is the swift action casting time - you don´t have to use an action to cast it in combat, or have the foresight to cast it before the encounter. Whenever you need to zip, manifest burst and you can still double move, withdraw, or run at your enhanced speed.

On the other hand Skate can be cast on objects which adds another dimension of versatility to the power - i would say that among the two it is definitely the better power, and that burst is there primarily only to be picked up by Nomads as an at-will talent.Yeah, I didn't even get into the fact that skate is good for moving heavy things.

What I'm trying to figure out is why burst has those augments and is a Nomad-exclusive power. Discipline-Exclusives are supposed to be a notch ABOVE powers of their level (in some cases a full level above - see minor metamorphsis (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/m/metamorphosis/)), and there are Discipline Talents that are not necessarily exclusives (crystal shard (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/c/crystal-shard/) is one the Shaper can take as a Talent, but is general psion/wilder).

And, if it really was just a thing tossed in for Nomads to get as a semi-free boost to speed at level 1, what's with the augment that is never going to be worth it?

So: Why Nomad-exclusive, and why give it an augmentation that, even if you took it as a power, you'd probably never use due to how expensive it is and how little it does for you compared to other movement powers of the level you could be manifesting if you can afford the augment?


Me looking at this discussion and if I were DM I would allow the player to port both Expeditious Retreat, Swift and Expeditious Retreat as a single 1st level power (swift only lasts 1 round, standard lasts 1 minute per level.)Skate kind-of is the psion-equivalent of expeditious retreat. I guess burst is the equivalent of swuift expeditious retreat, but it's slower unless you way over-spend PP on the augmentation (and can't even catch up if you're willng to spend it until level 9!)

What do you suppose the thought process behind burst was?

...okay, admittedly, it's legacy from 3.5. But why is burst Nomad-exclusive in 3.5? Why did Dreamscarred Press add the augmentation at +4 pp per 10 feet?

I mean, if it was +10 feet per 1 pp, I could actually see why you'd take it as a power. +200 feet movement for 20 pp as a swift action in a single round is actually worth it even at level 20, even if you have to come to the ground to get it!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Burst has always sucked horribly.

The only real use in PF is if you have access to Persist, max augment, and find a way to get a fly speed based on your land speed.

At that point, there are much nicer options for that amount of optimization.

[Segev]

Burst has always sucked horribly.

The only real use in PF is if you have access to Persist, max augment, and find a way to get a fly speed based on your land speed.

At that point, there are much nicer options for that amount of optimization.

And in PF, there is no "Persist" as you mean it; in fact, I suspect they went out of their way to name a metamagic/metapsionic feat that does something entirely different "Persistant Spell/Power" in order to shut it out.

In 3.5, I kind-of get it: they often didn't have a solid grasp on how powerful things were or would be in real use when they first wrote them. Maybe they thought the ability to spam 1 pp powers more than level 1 spells could be would mean burst would be spammable and thus too good to be 30 ft. or last more than a round.

I don't get PF, though. Dreamscarred Press clearly understood that burst was underpowered; they gave it an augment. But they gave it such an EXPENSIVE augment for so little return, and they left it as a Nomad-exclusive power that is...weak.

In fact, most Nomad-exclusive powers are remarkably underwhelming compared to comparable powers in the generic psion/wilder list. Or aren't comparable to any, but still come off as weak. I guess they just really didn't have a lot of inspiration for psychoportation that was hitting the right level of good, but not too good for each level? (And then they made flight 4th level for Nomads, and nobody else gets it; it's actively harder for the specialist psion of motion to fly than it is for a wizard! And that's not one of those powers I thought was particularly magical more than it was psi, but...apparently they disagreed.)

Anyway, on burst. What do you suppose DSP was thinking with the update?

Would it be hideously broken if burst's augment was 1 pp rather than 4 pp, letting you start stacking it right at ML 2 and making it really be a genuine burst of speed at higher levels? Would it still be worthless?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Anyway, on burst. What do you suppose DSP was thinking with the update?They weren't. It's a horrible power, even at level 1. If it were a Talent that anyone could get, sure, though it'd still be pretty much a rarely-used power.* But it'd take a lot more than is feasible to make it worth bothering with at level 1 without a rewrite.


Would it be hideously broken if burst's augment was 1 pp rather than 4 pp, letting you start stacking it right at ML 2 and making it really be a genuine burst of speed at higher levels? Would it still be worthless?See, that would be nice. Getting a +200' boost to land speed for 1 round would give you some really nice maneuverability, to the point where, if you could actually do parkour in D&D (which you really can't very well), you might even consider forgoing flight occasionally (rather than never).

If it applied to all movement modes? Yeah, definitely would be in contention for being a pretty good power.




*Yeah, overcosted at level 0? That's a sign of a really bad effect.

[Segev]

They weren't. It's a horrible power, even at level 1. If it were a Talent that anyone could get, sure, though it'd still be pretty much a rarely-used power.* But it'd take a lot more than is feasible to make it worth bothering with at level 1 without a rewrite.

*Yeah, overcosted at level 0? That's a sign of a really bad effect.They clearly gave it SOME thought. They made a change: it has an augment, now. It's a lousy augment, which is why I wonder what made them think it was worth putting in, but it's there.

I won't question the addition to the Nomad Talents options. It costs "okay" for that, especially compared to the other lackluster Nomad Talent choices. When it only costs your swift action and that you be focused (not even that you have to expend focus), it's worth using if you have it.


See, that would be nice. Getting a +400' boost to land speed for 1 round would give you some really nice maneuverability, to the point where, if you could actually do parkour in D&D (which you really can't very well), you might even consider forgoing flight occasionally (rather than never).

If it applied to all movement modes? Yeah, definitely would be in contention for being a pretty good power.Hm. Some good ideas here. Let me try some homebrewing real quick....


Burst
Discipline psychoportation
Level gifted blade 1, marksman 1, nomad 1, psychic warrior 1, sighted seeker 1
Display Auditory
Manifesting Time 1 swift action
Range Personal
Target You
Duration 1 round
Power Points 1

This power increases your land speed by 10 feet. This adjustment counts as an enhancement bonus to speed.

Augment For each additional power point you spend, the enhancement bonus to speed increases by 10 feet.
Nomads may augment this power in the following additional ways.
If you spend 4 additional power points, this power also enhances your climb speed (if you have one).
If you spend 4 additional power points, this power also enhances your swim speed (if you have one).
If you spend 6 additional power points, this power also enhances your fly speed (if you have one).


I made the fly speed enhancer so expensive so that if you're using flight for a base 60 ft., by the time you can manifest this with the augment for it, it's 30 ft. slower than your land speed when you spend the same number of pp on burst for pure land speed.

That is, at 7th level, the first time you could manifest this with the fly speed augment, you're getting your fly speed up to 70 ft. with this manifestation (60 base from fly plus 10 from burst). If you instead do pure land speed by spending 7 pp on burst, you're getting 100 ft. total (30 ft. base, +70 ft. from burst). Even if you're a dwarf or a Small creature, you're still netting +20 feet from the same investment in land speed as you would if you got it for fly speeds. This keeps it somewhat attractive to run along the ground. Even so, I think at 10th level, +40 to fly speed for 10 pp might be attractive. (The mental math for final speed is even easier: factor flight-granted speed and burst-granted speed, and your net fly speed for the round is 10 ft. for every pp you spend on burst.)


Edit to add: Also, I note now that DSP did add it to non-psion/wilder lists, like the Psychic Warrior, Gifted Blade, Marksman... Not sure they'd really have use for it as-is in the PFSRD, either, but still, it's not JUST Nomad-exclusive, I guess.

[Ramza00]

Skate kind-of is the psion-equivalent of expeditious retreat. I guess burst is the equivalent of swuift expeditious retreat, but it's slower unless you way over-spend PP on the augmentation (and can't even catch up if you're willng to spend it until level 9!)

What do you suppose the thought process behind burst was?

...okay, admittedly, it's legacy from 3.5. But why is burst Nomad-exclusive in 3.5? Why did Dreamscarred Press add the augmentation at +4 pp per 10 feet?

I mean, if it was +10 feet per 1 pp, I could actually see why you'd take it as a power. +200 feet movement for 20 pp as a swift action in a single round is actually worth it even at level 20, even if you have to come to the ground to get it!

I can't argue what the designers logic was. Both Burst and Skate should get a power boost.

Add to the list is Elongate Extremities a Egoist 1 power but also a gish class power with psychic warrior 1, gifted blade 1, and highlord 1 getting it.

This psionic power can give you a burst of speed or additional reach. It takes a standard action to manifest and lasts 1 min / level. Yet if you use your psionic focus the power becomes a swift action, the duration is 1 round (can't be changed with other feats / powers), and the bonus doubles. Thus for 3pp (1pp, plus 2 pp augment) plus your psionic focus you now have a Swift Expeditious Retreat for 1 round.

Spend your psionic focus and 7 pp (1pp base, 6pp of various augments) and you can increase you reach by 20 feet, and your speed by 30 feet for 1 round as a swift action.

[Kris Moonhand]

I think that some spells/powers only exist so that they can be used as SLAs/PLAs. Like how blood crow strike (https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Blood%20Crow%20Strike) is technically a Cleric spell, sure. But it really only exists so that Qinggong Monks can use it as an SLA. And sometimes there are just better powers. Like how body purification (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Body_Purification) and cleanse body (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Cleanse_Body) are both Vitalist 2 powers.

[Psyren]

A swift action casting time is a big deal, especially augmented. Consider that Burst can get you away from a charging lion while Skate can't (unless you already had it active), for example. Consider also that being a swift means you can manifest it in melee without provoking, followed by a withdraw action (which also doesn't provoke.) I don't think it's the best power in the world, but I think it's decent enough.

[Segev]

A swift action casting time is a big deal, especially augmented. Consider that Burst can get you away from a charging lion while Skate can't (unless you already had it active), for example. Consider also that being a swift means you can manifest it in melee without provoking, followed by a withdraw action (which also doesn't provoke.) I don't think it's the best power in the world, but I think it's decent enough.

Are you confusing Swift with Immediate? I don't see how you can get away from a charging lion with burst but not skate. ...I suppose you mean you could manifest burst then run for 160 ft. rather than 120 ft.? I wasn't aware swift action spells/powers didn't provoke AoOs when you used them while adjacent to a potential attacker. I see what you mean about Withdraw; I was unaware of that action.

But...does this actually make it so good it should be a Nomad-specific power? Or worth spending a powers-known slot on? It's not even as good as swift expeditious retreat until 9th level, when it costs like a 5th level power.

[Nifft]

I think my houserule for Burst would be something like...

Burst
Psychoportation (nomad 1, psychic warrior 1, etc.)
Display: Auditory
Manifesting Time: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target :You
Duration: Instantaneous
Power Points: 1

Move yourself 10 ft. as if via teleportation (though this isn't a teleportation effect, and can't be blocked by dimensional lock or the like).

Augmentation: If you spend an additional 4 power points, you can instead move yourself 20 ft. If you spend an additional 8 power points, you can instead move yourself 30 ft.

[Psyren]

Are you confusing Swift with Immediate? I don't see how you can get away from a charging lion with burst but not skate.

I'm assuming it's your turn and that they're going to charge on their next initiative (pretty safe assumption with an angry animal.) Manifesting as a swift lets you double-move or take the run action, whereas manifesting as a standard prevents both of these.


I wasn't aware swift action spells/powers didn't provoke AoOs when you used them while adjacent to a potential attacker.

It's on the SRD: "Casting a spell with a casting time of 1 swift action does not provoke attacks of opportunity." (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#swiftActions) (The psionic equivalent of this is found on XPH pg. 59, it's probably on the SRD too somewhere.)


I see what you mean about Withdraw; I was unaware of that action.

It's a very important action. Doubly so for a psion, who via various means (e.g. Schism) can use it and still manifest as a standard action in the same turn.


But...does this actually make it so good it should be a Nomad-specific power? Or worth spending a powers-known slot on? It's not even as good as swift expeditious retreat until 9th level, when it costs like a 5th level power.

This is subjective so I can't really speak to it in general terms. My own characters have had better powers to pick, but that doesn't mean Burst hasn't saved some level 1 Nomad's life at some point in their career somewhere.

[Segev]

The extra 40 ft. on a run or 20 ft. on a double move just don't seem like they make that big a difference when you're in a surprise situation. Especially since manifesting Skate gets you an extra 15 ft. on a single move. Now, there is the attack provocation to consider.

Nifft had an idea that occurred to me between responding to Psyren's last post and reading up now. Or close to it. The "as teleport" is interesting, but...

What if burst was 10 ft. of instant movement as a swift action, rather than a +10 enhancement bonus to speed for one round? It wouldn't be as much movement on a round you're double moving or running, but it would let you move even after full attacking, for instance. That might make the high cost of its augmentation make sense, too: you're getting more distance out of a single swift action, with no need to spend move on it.

Maybe an augment to make it an immediate action, too? Have to make that a bit pricey to keep it from being "immunity to melee, the power."


I still am liking the notion behind what I posted above, though: lower the augment cost to 1 pp per 10 ft., and maybe add Nomad-only augments for non-land movement.

[Nifft]

Nifft had an idea that occurred to me between responding to Psyren's last post and reading up now. Or close to it. The "as teleport" is interesting, but...

What if burst was 10 ft. of instant movement as a swift action, rather than a +10 enhancement bonus to speed for one round? It wouldn't be as much movement on a round you're double moving or running, but it would let you move even after full attacking, for instance. That might make the high cost of its augmentation make sense, too: you're getting more distance out of a single swift action, with no need to spend move on it.

Maybe an augment to make it an immediate action, too? Have to make that a bit pricey to keep it from being "immunity to melee, the power."

I like the idea of an Immediate action teleport, but then I remember how broken Conjurers can be with their limited-use NO MELEE button.

On the one hand, it's fair to allow Psions to have nice things too; on the other hand, that level of cheese isn't appropriate for all games.

Maybe link it? "If you allow Conjurers to take Abrupt Jaunt, then add this Augmentation: ..."

[Segev]

I like the idea of an Immediate action teleport, but then I remember how broken Conjurers can be with their limited-use NO MELEE button.

On the one hand, it's fair to allow Psions to have nice things too; on the other hand, that level of cheese isn't appropriate for all games.

Maybe link it? "If you allow Conjurers to take Abrupt Jaunt, then add this Augmentation: ..."

Could just have the immediate-action movement provoke AoOs. It's a first level power; it doesn't need to teleport. It can just be a sudden burst of movement.

Edit to add:

Here's an attempt at two distinct powers. Dash is just my version of burst from an earlier post in this thread. Burst is now movement-as-a-swift-action (or immediate, with an augment). I'm not sure about the price of the immediate-action augment.

Dash
Discipline psychoportation
Level gifted blade 1, marksman 1, nomad 1, psychic warrior 1, sighted seeker 1
Display Auditory
Manifesting Time 1 swift action
Range Personal
Target You
Duration 1 round
Power Points 1

This power increases your land speed by 10 feet. This adjustment counts as an enhancement bonus to speed.

Augment For each additional power point you spend, the enhancement bonus to speed increases by 10 feet.
Nomads may augment this power in the following additional ways.
If you spend 4 additional power points, this power also enhances your climb speed (if you have one).
If you spend 4 additional power points, this power also enhances your swim speed (if you have one).
If you spend 6 additional power points, this power also enhances your fly speed (if you have one).


Burst
Discipline psychoportation
Level gifted blade 1, marksman 1, nomad 1, psychic warrior 1, sighted seeker 1
Display Auditory
Manifesting Time 1 swift action
Range Personal
Target You
Duration Instantaneous
Power Points 1

When you activate this power, you may immediately move up to 10 feet by a movement mode you possess. This does not count as a 5-foot step nor as an adjustment to your normal movement speeds. This movement does provoke attacks of opportunity.

Augment For each additional 4 power points you spend, the maximum distance you may move with this power increases by 10 feet.
If you spend 5 additional power points, you may activate this as an immediate action. The movement still provokes attacks of opportunity.