[3.5] Maximum hp possible at 1st level

[TallerSpine]

What is the maximum number of hp possible at 1st level while sleeping?

Rules:
Any +0 level adjustment race printed by WotC.
One hit die races only
No templates
25 point buy
Up to 2 flaws
Up to 2 traits
No Dragon magazine
No dragonwrought epic feats
No taint bonus feats
No DCS to turn proficiencies into additional feats
No Dragonborn (that must be accomplished in-game for 1,000gp of supplies)
Spells must have at least 8 hour duration to be considered active
Starting equipment average by class (example: barbarians get 4d4 x 10gp, 100gp average)

Is the maximum 36?

Daelkyr Halfblood bear totem barbarian 1
Str 14, Dex 11, Con 18, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 8
Feats: toughness x4, symbiont mastery
Flaws: inattentive, unreactive
Traits: slow
Starting hp: 12+4 (Con)+12 (toughness)+2 (symbiont mastery)+5 (breed leech)+1 (slow trait) = 36 hp

Can I add anything to improve this?

Thank you for all of the help do far! 36 is way better than I was expecting.

[Palanan]

For a slight improvement, you can replace Toughness with Dauntless, from p. 37 of the Player's Guide to Faerûn. Dauntless gives you 5 hit points instead of 3, and it's available to orcs.

That gets you a grand total of two more hit points, but at least it's a net positive.

[Ruethgar]

Old Dragonwrought Kobold with Epic Toughness.

Flaw: Dragonwrought
Flaw: Epic Tpughness
First: Epic Toughness
Taint: Epic Toughness x6
Elder Evil: DCS Epic Toughness
Faustian: Epic Toughness x2
Racial: DCS Epic Toughness x2
Paladin(so you can get Pazuzu wish chain for the DCS): Epic Toughness x4(from the free proficiency feats)

So that’s Epic Toughness x17?

[AvatarVecna]

Kinda depends on what all you consider to be "cheating". Lots of things could be done to a lvl 1 character in-universe that would give them phenomenal HP without altering their level.

Case in point, is kobold epic feat nonsense kosher in your book, OP? :smalltongue:

[Buufreak]

For a slight improvement, you can replace Toughness with Dauntless, from p. 37 of the Player's Guide to Faerûn. Dauntless gives you 5 hit points instead of 3, and it's available to orcs.

That gets you a grand total of two more hit points, but at least it's a net positive.

Replace the improved toughness with dauntless to net +4?

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Mongrelfolk get +4 Con.

And if you handwave the 1,000gp cost, you can add Dragonborn to any race for an extra +2 Con.

So that brings us up to 24 Con pre-cheese.

[TallerSpine]

Old Dragonwrought Kobold with Epic Toughness.

Flaw: Dragonwrought
Flaw: Epic Tpughness
First: Epic Toughness
Taint: Epic Toughness x6
Elder Evil: DCS Epic Toughness
Faustian: Epic Toughness x2
Racial: DCS Epic Toughness x2
Paladin(so you can get Pazuzu wish chain for the DCS): Epic Toughness x4(from the free proficiency feats)

So that’s Epic Toughness x17?

I appreciate the effort. I am looking for optimized rather than broken. DM says true dragons have twelve age categories. True dragon old age is a different age category than dragonwrought kobold old age, so only true dragons can take epic feats at old age category.

And taint and the DCS shenanigans seems a bit over the top. But cool to know this is technically possible! Lol.

[TallerSpine]

For a slight improvement, you can replace Toughness with Dauntless, from p. 37 of the Player's Guide to Faerûn. Dauntless gives you 5 hit points instead of 3, and it's available to orcs.

That gets you a grand total of two more hit points, but at least it's a net positive.

Very cool! I added that in.


Kinda depends on what all you consider to be "cheating". Lots of things could be done to a lvl 1 character in-universe that would give them phenomenal HP without altering their level.

Case in point, is kobold epic feat nonsense kosher in your book, OP? :smalltongue:

Agreed. I added additional rules.


Replace the improved toughness with dauntless to net +4?

Great point. I also forgot I could take toughness more than once. That gives another +3


Mongrelfolk get +4 Con.

And if you handwave the 1,000gp cost, you can add Dragonborn to any race for an extra +2 Con.

So that brings us up to 24 Con pre-cheese.

Great point! Unfortunately, the DM nixed Dragonborn, and the +1 hp from better con +3 hp toughness is worse than the +5 hp dauntless.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Buufreak
Replace the improved toughness with dauntless to net +4?

The text for Dauntless specifies it can only be taken once.


Originally Posted by TallerSpine
Very cool! I added that in.

Glad it was helpful. Dauntless is a great feat for first-level builds that aren't likely to advance, i.e. NPC foes.

[emeraldstreak]

With PunPun and Epic Toughness banned, a Symbiot character ought to be in the 30s.

[ShurikVch]

Replace Water Orc with Human, take one more Toughness = +2 hp

Maeluth (Fiend Folio) gets +4 Con; check if Lesser Maeluth is OK in general, and if they would qualify for Dauntless

[TallerSpine]

With PunPun and Epic Toughness banned, a Symbiot character ought to be in the 30s.

Symbiot? I tried googling that, but all I found was symbionts. When I looked them up, they had gp cost equivalents in Magic of Eberron in the thousands of gp which is more than the 100gp starting limit for a barbarian.

[Buufreak]

The text for Dauntless specifies it can only be taken once.


And? This is specifically for a 1hd character. Toughness is +3, improved is +1/hd. I'd rather net +4 than +2.

[TallerSpine]

Replace Water Orc with Human, take one more Toughness = +2 hp

Maeluth (Fiend Folio) gets +4 Con; check if Lesser Maeluth is OK in general, and if they would qualify for Dauntless

Awesome! Updated to human! No dice on lesser Maeluth unfortunately.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Buufreak
And? This is specifically for a 1hd character.

The text doesn’t make an exception for 1 HD characters. Dauntless is a regional feat, and those are limited to one only, taken at first level.

Now, it’s up to the player and the DM if they want to disregard that, but taking Dauntless twice at first level is against both the spirit and the letter of the rules. Ultimately it’s up to the OP if he wants to do things differently.

[TallerSpine]

The text doesn’t make an exception for 1 HD characters. Dauntless is a regional feat, and those are limited to one only, taken at first level.

Now, it’s up to the player and the DM if they want to disregard that, but taking Dauntless twice at first level is against both the spirit and the letter of the rules. Ultimately it’s up to the OP if he wants to do things differently.

Palanan, you mentioned replacing Toughness with Dauntless for a +2hp net gain. Buufreak suggested keeping Toughness and replacing Improved Toughness with Dauntless instead for a net +4 hp gain. I had forgotten that I could take toughness multiple times, so I combined both of your ideas. Thank you both for that.

[Buufreak]

The text doesn’t make an exception for 1 HD characters. Dauntless is a regional feat, and those are limited to one only, taken at first level.



Palanan, you mentioned replacing Toughness with Dauntless for a +2hp net gain. Buufreak suggested keeping Toughness and replacing Improved Toughness with Dauntless instead for a net +4 hp gain.

Let's hope he understands it better coming from you.

[emeraldstreak]

Symbiot? I tried googling that, but all I found was symbionts. When I looked them up, they had gp cost equivalents in Magic of Eberron in the thousands of gp which is more than the 100gp starting limit for a barbarian.

Replace Human for Half Daelkyr and you get one for free alongside Symbiont Mastery. With a Breed Leech you get +7 thp, lose Human's bonus Toughness' 3 hp.

[TallerSpine]

Replace Human for Half Daelkyr and you get one for free alongside Symbiont Mastery. With a Breed Leech you get +7 thp, lose Human's bonus Toughness' 3 hp.

Very cool. Unfortunately, a Daelkyr Halfblood is not eligible for the Dauntless feat, so the net gain is +2 rather than +4. Still, good improvement! Thank you!

[ShurikVch]

With a Breed Leech you get +7 thp7?
Wasn't it 5?

[TallerSpine]

7?
Wasn't it 5?

+5 breed leech, +2 symbiont mastery = +7 total

[TallerSpine]

Is there any published alchemy equipment that could give a character temp hp that would last at least 8 hours (worth no more than 100gp)?

[denthor]

Not a true add but a work around.

Take a look at die hard feat. You get to stay up and fighting into negative numbers of hit points depending on constitution

[TallerSpine]

Not a true add but a work around.

Take a look at die hard feat. You get to stay up and fighting into negative numbers of hit points depending on constitution

I did look at that, but you are limited to a move action or a standard action every round you are at nonpositive hp. And if you take a standard action, it deals 1hp damage.

[tyckspoon]

The raw number won't be so high, but you can get a probably more useful character with psionics. Ideally, you want to be a race with a Con bonus and a bonus feat. Unfortunately I don't think any exist, not within the bounds of the material set by original post. (A Con bonus and a bonus Psionic feat would also work, but again I don't believe any exist.)

Be a Psychic Warrior. You get a class bonus feat, your level 1 feat, 2 flaw feats, and your racial bonus feat. Make 'em all [Psionic] feats. Take Psychic Body then whatever (Psionic Weapon, Overchannel, Talented, couple of Expanded Knowledges.. heck just take Psionic Talent 4 times to get enough power points to constantly use your powers.) Psychic Body is worth 2 HP then another 2 for every other [Psionic] Feat, so that's 10 HP from your feats. 8 from your base HD, 4 assuming Con 18 makes 22. 23 if you're willing to be Slow. Notably fewer than the symbiont route - that Breed Leech/free Symbiont Mastery is hard to beat - but on the plus side you get to have feats that actually do things.

[Tytalus]

Alternative with a standard race:

Human generic warrior 1
Str 14, Dex 11, Con 18, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 8
Feats: toughness, toughness, toughness, toughness, dauntless
Flaws: inattentive, unreactive
Traits: slow
Starting hp: 10 +4 (Con) +12 (toughness)+5 (dauntless) +1 (slow trait) = 32 hp


You can get the Daelkyr Halfblood to 34 HP if you make him a generic warrior 1 to grab another Toughness feat (net +1 vs. barbarian).

[TallerSpine]

Alternative with a standard race:

Human generic warrior 1
Str 14, Dex 11, Con 18, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 8
Feats: toughness, toughness, toughness, toughness, dauntless
Flaws: inattentive, unreactive
Traits: slow
Starting hp: 10 +4 (Con) +12 (toughness)+5 (dauntless) +1 (slow trait) = 32 hp


You can get the Daelkyr Halfblood to 34 HP if you make him a generic warrior 1 to grab another Toughness feat (net +1 vs. barbarian).

Lol, I forgot about the generic classes! Good find!

[ExLibrisMortis]

A bear totem barbarian (UA variant) gets Toughness as bonus feat at level 1, for 15 base hit points. That should get you +2 compared to the current build.

For what it's worth, a crusader will be far tougher than a generic warrior or bear totem barbarian, between Martial Spirit and Steely Resolve. But I guess that's not the point here :smalltongue:.

[TallerSpine]

A bear totem barbarian (UA variant) gets Toughness as bonus feat at level 1, for 15 base hit points. That should get you +2 compared to the current build.

For what it's worth, a crusader will be far tougher than a generic warrior or bear totem barbarian, between Martial Spirit and Steely Resolve. But I guess that's not the point here :smalltongue:.

:thumbsup: that's awesome! Thank you

[Ruethgar]

Elven Generalist Wizard to double up Magic Jar at level one to get a new body with however much HP a lvl 1 can manage to jar into.

Similarly, Familiar Form is less expensive, slap on Extra Familiar, dismiss(so no longer a magical beast)and get it Awakened for up to 5HD from being a small monkey. This is fuzzy since it is suggested that even when dismissed or their wizards die, familiars retain their abilities such as in the Tibbit.

[TallerSpine]

Elven Generalist Wizard to double up Magic Jar at level one to get a new body with however much HP a lvl 1 can manage to jar into.

What does this mean? I am not familiar with how a character can "double up" on a 5th level spell at 1st level. How does that work?

[Ruethgar]

Magic Jar into something, then Magic Jar into something else, dismiss the first one, then the second one. You are now in the body of the first creature you Magic Jared into without any magic active to dispel, essentially giving you a new body permanently. Elven Generalist because they can get 9th level spells at first level, so should be able to manage 5th just fine as well.

[Rebel7284]

Elven Generalist because they can get 9th level spells at first level

So if Kobold cheese is disallowed, I have a feeling that the tortured reading that allows you to get 9th with Elven Generalist is too...

Of course you can get items that allows you to cast Magic Jar by stealing/borrowing/Mercantile Backgrounding enough cash.

[Ruethgar]

So if Kobold cheese is disallowed, I have a feeling that the tortured reading that allows you to get 9th with Elven Generalist is too...

Oh almost certainly, was just an avenue that popped into my head when I saw this post at the top again. Was mostly thinking about Awakened Animals(ECL 0 3RHD), then remembered the other ways to play an animal and thought I'd add it in.

[TallerSpine]

So if Kobold cheese is disallowed, I have a feeling that the tortured reading that allows you to get 9th with Elven Generalist is too...

Of course you can get items that allows you to cast Magic Jar by stealing/borrowing/Mercantile Backgrounding enough cash.


Oh almost certainly, was just an avenue that popped into my head when I saw this post at the top again. Was mostly thinking about Awakened Animals(ECL 0 3RHD), then remembered the other ways to play an animal and thought I'd add it in.

I am not understanding the interpretation that could lead one to conclude a first level elven generalist could cast any spell above 1st level.

And for animals, the one HD limit nixes the possibility of choosing a form with multiple hit dice.

[Ruethgar]

For the initial race(elf) you would only have your class HD, its just that your current body could have significantly more. It has been a while since I looked at the elven generalist, but basically it had to do with Earth and Sanctum spell IIRC, letting you cast a spell treated in every way as a 3rd level spell(4th with Precocious Apprentice), letting you pick a 3rd level slot from Elven Generalist and then repeat, since now you can cast up to 5th, then 7th, then 9th. Presumably you might need Extra Slot for these(Chaos Shuffling, via background or wish abuse, away elven proficiency for a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th slot to cast a 7th) but that was basically the trick.

Edit: And if templates and Awakened Animals were allowed, an Awakened Titanic, Dungeonbred, Magebred, War Monkey has its ECL set to 0, but that's also Dragon Magazine so triple disallowed by the rules of this particular post.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I am not understanding the interpretation that could lead one to conclude a first level elven generalist could cast any spell above 1st level.

And for animals, the one HD limit nixes the possibility of choosing a form with multiple hit dice.
It's called "bootstrapping" and works like this:

(1) A domain wizard gets an extra spell slot of each level.
(2) An elf generalist wizard gets an extra spell slot "of the highest level they can cast".
(3) With Versatile Spellcaster, you can use two spell slots of a given level to cast a spell of the next-highest level.

There's some additional nuance re: spells known, combining generalist and domain wizard, and qualifying for VS as wizard, but that aside for now (here's the original if you want to check (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?184045-Compilation-of-UberCheese-Tricks-and-Loose-Rules-Interpretation-Why-Not&p=10197586#post10197586)). Let's assume you get these three components on a first-level wizard.

Your level 1 wizard uses VS to cast a 2nd-level spell, and because you can cast 2nds, you have a 2nd-level slot from EGW, and because you have a 2nd-level slot, you get a bonus domain slot. Now that you have two 2nds, you can cast a 3rd, which means you have a 3rd-level slot, which means you get a bonus domain slot. Now that you have two 3rds, you can cast a 4th, and so on and so on until 9ths.

I think it's got some RAW problems (either invalidating the trick, or requiring DM adjudication), but it's pretty cool regardless.

[Lord Haart]

Do only positive HP count? I know this class called "totemist" that can keep fighting at full efficiency up to -12 HP, just for having a level in that class. Likewise, a renewal domain cleric automatically heals 1d8+cha HP the instant it falls below 0, which isn't much different from having 1d8+cha more HP.

Also, why is everyone seemingly forgetting to sell a soul and to serve an elder evil? In my days, these were the most basic go-to ways to get more feats. (I don't currently remember if feats you can get for serving an elder evil can increase one's HP, but selling a soul certain-ly can!)