Dealing with Save or Die/suck

[Evoker]

I'm planning on running my first ever 3.5e campaign sometime soon, and face a dilemma. I want to run a highly magical world, with a good number of opponent casters. How can I handle the fact that these opponent casters "should" be using save or die/suck spells against the party, without risking killing a PC every couple of encounters with a caster that knows a save or die when they roll poorly on the save? I was thinking I could give each PC one point of "ablative save or die resistance". Whenever they would fail a save vs a save or die/suck effect, they can burn that point to succeed on the save instead, and that point comes back after 8 hours of rest (Just like spell preparation). Is this a good solution, or should I just not give the opponent casters these options, sticking to traditional damage-dealing spells? Or are save-or-dies not really as big of a problem as they seem to me, and no correction is necessary?

[Vander Nars]

I'm planning on running my first ever 3.5e campaign sometime soon, and face a dilemma. I want to run a highly magical world, with a good number of opponent casters. How can I handle the fact that these opponent casters "should" be using save or die/suck spells against the party, without risking killing a PC every couple of encounters with a caster that knows a save or die when they roll poorly on the save? I was thinking I could give each PC one point of "ablative save or die resistance". Whenever they would fail a save vs a save or die/suck effect, they can burn that point to succeed on the save instead, and that point comes back every short rest. Is this a good solution, or should I just not give the opponent casters these options, sticking to traditional damage-dealing spells? Or are save-or-dies not really as big of a problem as they seem to me, and no correction is nessesary?

My first time dming I ran into the same issue, for enemy casters I used spells that would debuff the party but still allow them to function at a reduce capacity. With monsters I changed their special abilities to be a lesser ability that wouldnt out right kill the players. It worked out pretty well, i was still able to weaken the party and even force them to take serious my encounters while not killing them outright due to "luck" of the dice.

[Kurald Galain]

I don't see save or suck as a problem. Yes, a PC will occasionally spend most of the combat paralyzed, blinded, or fleeing; that's part of the game, and encourages people to invest in countermeasures. If your players feel entitled to always be at maximum efficiency all the time, they probably shouldn't be playing D&D>

Save or die, outright, may be a bit much. Of course, you haven't actually specified what level you're playing at; SOD doesn't really come into play until level 9 (5th-level spells), at which point the PCs probably have access to Raise Dead anyway. It may help to restrict SOD spells to just the boss characters, or to use the PF versions instead (which tend to deal large amounts of damage instead of killing outright).

Even better, you can give enemies a motivation not to use SOD. Maybe they specialize in transmutation rather than necromancy. Maybe their deity prohibits killing. Maybe they want to recruit the PCs to their cause, or have the PCs otherwise be valuable to them. Just like in OOTS, enemies tend to have story- or character-reasons for not employing the mechanically optimal strategies all the time.

[Evoker]

I don't see save or suck as a problem. Yes, a PC will occasionally spend most of the combat paralyzed, blinded, or fleeing; that's part of the game, and encourages people to invest in countermeasures. If your players feel entitled to always be at maximum efficiency all the time, they probably shouldn't be playing D&D>

Save or die, outright, may be a bit much. Of course, you haven't actually specified what level you're playing at; SOD doesn't really come into play until level 9 (5th-level spells), at which point the PCs probably have access to Raise Dead anyway. It may help to restrict SOD spells to just the boss characters, or to use the PF versions instead (which tend to deal large amounts of damage instead of killing outright).

Even better, you can give enemies a motivation not to use SOD. Maybe they specialize in transmutation rather than necromancy. Maybe their deity prohibits killing. Maybe they want to recruit the PCs to their cause, or have the PCs otherwise be valuable to them. Just like in OOTS, enemies tend to have story- or character-reasons for not employing the mechanically optimal strategies all the time.
So I shouldn't use save-or-sucks until my players have a way to counteract then fairly easily, at least out of combat, and use save-or-die sparingly, in your opinion? That actually does make a good deal of sense. Thanks for the thorough explanation of your thought process.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Actual save-or-die isn't available until 4th level spells with Phantasmal Killer, which isn't even worth using.

I think what you're talking about is a bunch of Kobolds, one a Sorcerer with Color Spray, and once a PC is knocked unconscious by that a CR 1/4 kobold miner with a heavy pick delivers a CDG. That's also avoidable, because the CDG provokes an AoO and doesn't go off if it kills the target delivering it. That heavy pick will deal 1d4-1 x4, average 6 damage, max 12 damage, so your Fort save to avoid death is anywhere from DC 11-22. In this case they should have at least one character with a bow who can shoot the kobold that has a spell component pouch and probably kill it in one hit.

A while back I was running a game in which they went up a stairway into the next floor of a tower, and found something like eight Grells. The bard decided to hang back on the stairs, and three of the Grells dropped down to engage him. He got paralyzed and one delivered a CDG with its beak to the top of his head, he was using Savage Bard so he had good Fort saves and he barely made the save. He continued to make bad decisions in game after that, and it was always blamed on the brain damage his character got from the Grell.

What I'm saying is, characters can and will die, there needs to be risk and there needs to be consequences for making bad decisions. That same party had chased a few Ooze Mephits into the basement of the tower, which was covered in muck. They had a Druid and the Bard had Wild Cohort, but neither companion wanted to go into the stinky basement and they didn't think to roll Handle Animal to push them. The Mephits were telling them to just go away and leave them alone, but they viewed them as walking xp and attacked. Out of the muck came an Otyugh which promptly grappled the Bard, one of the Metphits used its Stinking Cloud in the room which they'd previously used enough that the Mephits and Otyugh had built up an acquired immunity. It was the hardest fight they had that entire game due to the missing animal companions, and the Bard was dropped into negatives and very nearly died (probably why he wanted to hang back in the Grell room). Both of those things happened in the same session, and they were definitely more careful about picking fights and good placement after that.

The takeaway from this should be, don't use a single high-level caster for an encounter unless it's a boss fight. Make them use more reliable spells, not spend their highest level slots on something that may end up doing nothing which will inevitably lead to their own defeat. Use casters as support for physically strong opponents, or use a boss caster with mooks as backup so he doesn't lose on action economy alone. Take a look at this encounter I suggested (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?353631-Sorcerer-BBEG-fight-help-for-my-game-tonight#3), as well as this one (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?408757-Could-use-some-advice-on-how-to-challenge-a-high-powered-stealth-group#15). Enemy spellcasters are deadly, but not because of save-or-die effects. They inflict debilitating conditions on their enemies, preventing them from doing anything meaningful for multiple rounds, thus allowing the spellcaster and his allies to win the battle.

[RNightstalker]

I'm planning on running my first ever 3.5e campaign sometime soon, and face a dilemma. I want to run a highly magical world, with a good number of opponent casters. How can I handle the fact that these opponent casters "should" be using save or die/suck spells against the party, without risking killing a PC every couple of encounters with a caster that knows a save or die when they roll poorly on the save? I was thinking I could give each PC one point of "ablative save or die resistance". Whenever they would fail a save vs a save or die/suck effect, they can burn that point to succeed on the save instead, and that point comes back after 8 hours of rest (Just like spell preparation). Is this a good solution, or should I just not give the opponent casters these options, sticking to traditional damage-dealing spells? Or are save-or-dies not really as big of a problem as they seem to me, and no correction is necessary?

Each table is different. You could use an RP approach that has the group encounter someone else who barely escaped what they're going up against, have them do their homework before charging off.

[D+1]

I have two house rules that may help.

One I call the Shelob Rule. It basically says that poison or any other effect doesn't have to KILL to be scary or interesting - and in fact if it comes down to just a random roll that players don't have adequate warning and opportunity to guard against is really awful. Poison should be damaging and debilitating, yes, but doesn't need to KILL INSTANTLY AND OUTRIGHT in order to be useful. Most real-world natural poisons are either a protection against predators or a means of obtaining food. In the latter case that food is more often paralyzed so that their bodies remain "fresh" sources of food. The test case being Shelob from Lord of the Rings. She doesn't need to KILL Frodo with poison in order to be scary - she just needs to be able to paralyze him and drag him away so that he has to then be rescued. If a poison is going to kill - it doesn't have to kill INSTANTLY. Have it incapacitate instantly - and then only kill over time if the victim can't be healed or at least rescued for resurrection. Same with spell effects. Just pay attention to the ones that have save-or-die effects. Re-write those spells so that the victim only dies after X amount of time (with that time decreasing as the level of the spell in question is increased), but is absolutely incapacitated instantly. Save the genuine save-or-die effects for Death spells, poisons from major demons or 15 HD monsters, and so on. BE SELECTIVE with how mindlessly lethal you want effects to be.

The other rule I call the Truth-In-Advertising Rule. If a character succeeds in a save then that character WILL NOT DIE from the reduced effect - they have successfully saved against it. This mostly applies to damage-causing spells, where it became undesirably frequent that PC's would succeed in saves but die anyway because the damage was too high. Well if damage is going to kill the PC no matter what the save is - why the hell even ASK for a save? So, any successful save against damage can at most reduce a character to 1 hit point (or if you like it can put them below 0 and unconscious - just NOT truly dead).

On top of that I furthermore re-wrote effects like petrification and paralysis to at least require two failed saves from separate attacks before having full effect. First failed petrification save results in a Slowed effect. Second results in petrification. And an alchemical cure for the condition CAN be made using the blood or other parts from the appropriate creature so that it doesn't require a 6th level arcane spell to reverse it - and the DM can make that cure as expensive and difficult to concoct as is deemed appropriate and have a set window of time to obtain and use it before it becomes ineffective. Paralyzation failing one save means you only lose your turn that round (so if hit prior to your initiative in a round then you lose all that rounds actions, if paralyzed after your turn in initiative then you lose all of the next round). However, a second attack and a second failed save before you can take your next action means paralysis for 2-12 rounds and a third means paralysis for 2-12 hours. And then also ghouls/ghasts in particular will not immediately KILL victims that they have paralyzed - they will only keep them paralyzed to be consumed over time.

Only a few of the spells or effects you need to revise immediately. The rest you can decide how to change them as you prep for the next session in which they might be a factor.

[Powerdork]

Or you could take another approach, and port in 13th Age's "last gasp saves", which are like death saves for instant death attacks; saving throws in the 13th Age style are bare d20 throws usually made at the end of your turn, and are easy (6+), hard (16+), or normal (11+). Like 4e, the system uses special attacks (against Physical Defense and Mental Defense values) instead of Fortitude, Reflex and Will saving throws, but that doesn't need to be carried over to your game.


There are some monsters that are astonishingly deadly and can kill with a single attack (a death attack). “Kill” is used loosely here, in that a few of these monsters petrify or paralyze or otherwise entirely remove a PC from a fight.
Such attacks will specify that they offer “last gasp saves.” This means that a PC affected by such a power will slowly turn to stone, or slip into paralysis, or crumble to dust, etc. The first turn after an effect forces a PC to start making last gasp saves, the PC can take only one action (standard, move, or quick) during their turn and ends their turn by rolling a hard save (16+ on a bare d20). If this first save fails, the PC is now helpless and can take no further actions except to roll more last gasp saves.
The last gasp save functions like a death save—success means the PC has thrown off the condition and will act normally on their next turn, and rolling a 20 means they can take their turn normally that round. Failing four last gasp saves in a battle means you turn to stone, are paralyzed, are liquefied, or are adversely affected as indicated.
In addition, an ally next to you can use a standard action to help you try to shake off the effect, letting you roll a bonus last gasp save that does not count against your four total if you fail it. When an ally attempts to help you shake off the death attack, it only requires a normal save (11+ on the bare d20) for you to recover.