are there ways to make items dispel-resistant?

[King of Nowhere]

I'm thinking specifically for the purpose of resisting a chain dispel to suppress all items.
is there some item modification that gives it a higher dc for being suppressed, or perhaps a penalty to dispel checks made against the wearer and its equipment? bonus points if it also helps against disjunction.

in case there is no such thing, how expensive do you think it should reasonably be? and where do you think it should be capped? at -5 to dispel checks? at -10?

for reference, my campaign world has some sharp limitations on how much one can increase one's caster level, so the current sheanigans to prevent dispelling (that is, buffing one's caster level in the mid-40s) can't be used, or at least they are much less effective.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A Ring of Enduring Arcana in CM is only 6k and gives your spells +4 DC against dispel attempts. I doubt that would apply to items created by the wearer, though.

You could wear a glove or gauntlet over your rings, wear a mundane robe over your armor/belt/bracers/necklace/shirt and even boots if it's long enough, blocking both line of sight and line of effect to those items and preventing them from being targeted. Even a cape can be worn under the robe. A sack is 1 sp and a backpack is 2 gp, you can put your bag of holding or handy haversack in one of those and it too will be out of line of sight/effect from opponents' spells and attacks.

[Tvtyrant]

I'm thinking specifically for the purpose of resisting a chain dispel to suppress all items.
is there some item modification that gives it a higher dc for being suppressed, or perhaps a penalty to dispel checks made against the wearer and its equipment? bonus points if it also helps against disjunction.

in case there is no such thing, how expensive do you think it should reasonably be? and where do you think it should be capped? at -5 to dispel checks? at -10?

for reference, my campaign world has some sharp limitations on how much one can increase one's caster level, so the current sheanigans to prevent dispelling (that is, buffing one's caster level in the mid-40s) can't be used, or at least they are much less effective.

Ring of Counterspell can be set to stop dispel, automatically protecting you from that strategy. Craft Contingency can do the same thing.

[King of Nowhere]

Ring of Counterspell can be set to stop dispel, automatically protecting you from that strategy. Craft Contingency can do the same thing.

there are reasons i don't want to go for alternate strategies.
I won't go more in depth because, being a veteran of this forum, I know that if I will explain my reasons there will be plenty of people telling me that my reasons are wrong, or that I could do it in another way, and it would completely derail my original request.

suffice to say that i want specifically a bonus against dispel (and possibly disjunction), and not alternative ways to protect from chain dispelling.

[Jay R]

Unfortunately, yes, there is a way to do it.

Why do I call that unfortunate? Because that means that we know the price and difficulty involved.

Dispel works against caster level. The way to make an item more dispel-resistant is to have it made by a higher level caster. And that affects the price of the item as determined by the rules for item creation.

[Powerdork]

You could wear a glove or gauntlet over your rings, wear a mundane robe over your armor/belt/bracers/necklace/shirt and even boots if it's long enough, blocking both line of sight and line of effect to those items and preventing them from being targeted. Even a cape can be worn under the robe. A sack is 1 sp and a backpack is 2 gp, you can put your bag of holding or handy haversack in one of those and it too will be out of line of sight/effect from opponents' spells and attacks.

Worn magic items and other items considered 'attended' by you are a part of your personal field for the purpose of spells, regardless of whether they're exposed. The only benefits to this plan, enabled by the narrative, are denying onlookers the information and possibly preventing them from making direct attacks against the gear at touch AC, but even then, gloves don't provide an AC bonus of any sort, and even if they did, it wouldn't apply against a touch. The caster level check to disable someone's magical effects with dispel magic still goes through regardless, since there's nothing saying it doesn't.

[Troacctid]

Worn magic items and other items considered 'attended' by you are a part of your personal field for the purpose of spells, regardless of whether they're exposed. The only benefits to this plan, enabled by the narrative, are denying onlookers the information and possibly preventing them from making direct attacks against the gear at touch AC, but even then, gloves don't provide an AC bonus of any sort, and even if they did, it wouldn't apply against a touch. The caster level check to disable someone's magical effects with dispel magic still goes through regardless, since there's nothing saying it doesn't.
But you can't disable magic items by targeting the wielder with dispel magic. You have to target the item itself. Which means you need line of sight and line of effect to it.

Disjunctions are significantly harder to stop. There's an epic feat (http://web.archive.org/web/20100916093852/http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drfe/20080428) that makes all your gear immune to being disjoined. Outside of that, something like a contingency to teleport you out of the area is probably your best bet.

[denthor]

A chain dispel is simply I know you have magic I do not know what you have I do not have arcane sight or 3 rounds for detect magic. So I cast dispel and random roll till something stops the spell still only one thing gets taken out.

[Troacctid]

A chain dispel is simply I know you have magic I do not know what you have I do not have arcane sight or 3 rounds for detect magic. So I cast dispel and random roll till something stops the spell still only one thing gets taken out.
Chain dispel actually only targets creatures, not objects, so you can't hit magic items with it at all.

[Biggus]

A cheap way to give weapons, armor and shields a little extra protection against Disjunction is to buy dwarvencraft (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=6) ones: +2 unnamed bonus to all saves for +300GP (weapons) or +150GP (armor and shields) on top of the normal masterwork cost. Gives them extra hardness and HPs too.

[Emperor Tippy]

Otiluke's Suppressing Field (Complete Mage) would force a DC 11+CL for the Dispel that needs to be passed to attempt to suppress the items. Make it Selective (Shining South) (You) and you can still cast your own dispels without any issue.

It's a 4th level spell with a 10 min. / level duration.

If you make it Selective, choose the Abjuration school to suppress and it also provides some protection against AMF (AMF still needs to make the DC 11+CL caster level check to function inside the Suppressing Field) and any other Abjurations.

[King of Nowhere]

A cheap way to give weapons, armor and shields a little extra protection against Disjunction is to buy dwarvencraft (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=6) ones: +2 unnamed bonus to all saves for +300GP (weapons) or +150GP (armor and shields) on top of the normal masterwork cost. Gives them extra hardness and HPs too.

but that would only apply to the unattended object. worn objects use the saving throws of the wearer (technically they use the best, but i've never seen a magic item with a saving throw better than the wearer), so it would not apply?

[darkdragoon]

Grellcraft alchemy from Lords of Madness, although I'm not sure how applicable it is to items outside of said book?

Domain draught for Inquisition.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Chain dispel actually only targets creatures, not objects, so you can't hit magic items with it at all.

Pretty sure what's meant here is dispel magic modified by the chain spell metamagic rather than the chain dispel sorc/wiz spell in particular.

[Elkad]

Chain dispel actually only targets creatures, not objects, so you can't hit magic items with it at all.


Pretty sure what's meant here is dispel magic modified by the chain spell metamagic rather than the chain dispel sorc/wiz spell in particular.

Exactly

Chain Spell Dispel Magic. Hit CL items and turn them off for 1d4 rounds. (with a successful check of course). Costs you a feat, but it fits in a L6 slot instead of L8. And it's a very good feat for a lot of other things as well, including buffing the party at the beginning of the day.

Most common wondrous items are CL10 or lower. By the time you can put Chain Spell on a Dispel, you are going to take out half of them at least. Some key items are even lower. Cloak of Resistance, CL of FIVE. Haversack, 9. Hope you didn't want anything out of it. Statboosters, CL8.

[Troacctid]

Exactly

Chain Spell Dispel Magic. Hit CL items and turn them off for 1d4 rounds. (with a successful check of course). Costs you a feat, but it fits in a L6 slot instead of L8. And it's a very good feat for a lot of other things as well, including buffing the party at the beginning of the day.

Most common wondrous items are CL10 or lower. By the time you can put Chain Spell on a Dispel, you are going to take out half of them at least. Some key items are even lower. Cloak of Resistance, CL of FIVE. Haversack, 9. Hope you didn't want anything out of it. Statboosters, CL8.
You're still subject to the normal targeting restrictions for the secondary targets. Line of sight, line of effect.

[Psyren]

there are reasons i don't want to go for alternate strategies.
I won't go more in depth because, being a veteran of this forum, I know that if I will explain my reasons there will be plenty of people telling me that my reasons are wrong, or that I could do it in another way, and it would completely derail my original request.

suffice to say that i want specifically a bonus against dispel (and possibly disjunction), and not alternative ways to protect from chain dispelling.

Other than boosting the caster level of your items (which you've said can't be done), this is the best way though.

Anyway...

A more mundane answer is that even with a chained dispel, they still have to specify what the secondary targets are. If the enemy caster doesn't know what items you're wearing, he/she can't target them or chain the dispel to them. Hide or disguise as many of your important items (both via clothing, and things like Magic Aura) as you can.

[Max Caysey]

A Ring of Enduring Arcana in CM is only 6k and gives your spells +4 DC against dispel attempts. I doubt that would apply to items created by the wearer, though.

It most certainly does, why would it not! You cast the enchantment spell, ergo it’s affected by the ring.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Your best bet is to cast magic mouth and other Permanent effects without expensive components at the highest CL possible, both on yourself and on every piece of your gear. Several times each. Spells cast on your items do not count as being on you, so a dispel on you would not affect your items' spells, and a dispel cast on your items would target the magic mouth (or whatever) first, since it's a higher CL. If it succeeds, well, it would've suppressed the item (or you) anyway, but it's far more liable to fail against a CL of 15 than it would against CL 5.

[Troacctid]

Your best bet is to cast magic mouth and other Permanent effects without expensive components at the highest CL possible, both on yourself and on every piece of your gear. Several times each. Spells cast on your items do not count as being on you, so a dispel on you would not affect your items' spells, and a dispel cast on your items would target the magic mouth (or whatever) first, since it's a higher CL. If it succeeds, well, it would've suppressed the item (or you) anyway, but it's far more liable to fail against a CL of 15 than it would against CL 5.
That strategy is good against area dispels, but only targeted dispels affect items, and targeted dispels hit all spells on the target.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

That strategy is good against area dispels, but only targeted dispels affect items, and targeted dispels hit all spells on the target.Ah, right.

This is one of the MANY reasons why getting total concealment is so important. That makes you immune to being targeted.

Another way to deal with dispel and its variants is a spellblade. Immunity to (greater) dispel magic, with the ability to launch it back at your opponent? Yes, please!

Do note that targeting a creature means you're not targeting its items, but even if you do, a spellblade or total concealment should still apply.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Within the narrow scope of the request, there is the niche power Dispelling Buffer (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dispellingBuffer.htm), which increases the dispel DC for a creature or object (including a magic item) by 5 for 1 hour/ML. For this use case it's Kineticist 6, so get your gold and your UPD/UMD check handy. If you want to homebrew an arcane version, I'd make it Sor/Wiz 4 or 5 but have it only apply to objects so as not to over-power buffers even more.

Regarding Disjunction, if your primary concern is items and not spell effects, there's always just pumping your will save to ridiculous levels using class features. That way your items pass the save, even if your buffs are all gone. Still, the best defense against one of the scariest 9th level spells is almost always going to be "avoid the effect," which is outside the scope of your question.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Make items to be Devices, instead of magic items. They're from Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood, and they're basically (Ex) magic items. They require expensive power sources that have limited charges (some are non-rechargeable, some are hand-cranked, and some run off of the body's bioelectric energy).

They're non-dispellable, non-disjoinable, and function even where magic doesn't.

[King of Nowhere]

Other than boosting the caster level of your items (which you've said can't be done), this is the best way though.

i said you can't buff your caster level to the mid forties. you certainly can use your caster level, and even butt it a bit.
but can you increase the caster level of an item? i assume that if the item is said to be cl 8, then it does not matter who is making it, even a level 20 wizard doing that item will do it cl 8. just like the best blacksmith in the world forging a nail, the nail is not going to be special.

how can you buff an item cl? and what would be the price? the dmg does not have anything about items at different cl



Anyway...

A more mundane answer is that even with a chained dispel, they still have to specify what the secondary targets are. If the enemy caster doesn't know what items you're wearing, he/she can't target them or chain the dispel to them. Hide or disguise as many of your important items (both via clothing, and things like Magic Aura) as you can.
interesting, but tricky in practice.
i assume by the time the party hits the level at which they have to worry about that, they will be rather famous, and so it would be reasonable for plot-related villains to have intel on them. but how much, exactly? i fear i may either make the tactic too powerful, or too useless.



Within the narrow scope of the request, there is the niche power Dispelling Buffer (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dispellingBuffer.htm), which increases the dispel DC for a creature or object (including a magic item) by 5 for 1 hour/ML. For this use case it's Kineticist 6, so get your gold and your UPD/UMD check handy. If you want to homebrew an arcane version, I'd make it Sor/Wiz 4 or 5 but have it only apply to objects so as not to over-power buffers even more.

cool! and if i make it wizard 4, i have a basis for how expensive it should be.
if i remember correctly, a permanent level 4 spell should be something around 30k gp, which would be a reasonable markup to pay when you start swinging around +6 stuff and the campaign has plenty of loot.



Regarding Disjunction, if your primary concern is items and not spell effects, there's always just pumping your will save to ridiculous levels using class features. That way your items pass the save, even if your buffs are all gone. Still, the best defense against one of the scariest 9th level spells is almost always going to be "avoid the effect," which is outside the scope of your question.
yes, this came into play a lot in the previous campaign, where the big bad and his three main lieutnants were all capable of disjunctions (with dc above 30). there were lots of contingencies and counterspelling involved there :smallsmile:
though it was really rough for the rogue, who was the only party member who could not buff his will save too hard.

[Telonius]

I'm considering Iron Heat Surge as a possibility for anti-Dispel tactics, but I'm not sure it would work. Does gear you're carrying and attending count as "you" for that purpose (since the item, not you, was the target of the dispel)?

Unfortunately it would do nothing against Disjunction.

[Troacctid]

i said you can't buff your caster level to the mid forties. you certainly can use your caster level, and even butt it a bit.
but can you increase the caster level of an item? i assume that if the item is said to be cl 8, then it does not matter who is making it, even a level 20 wizard doing that item will do it cl 8. just like the best blacksmith in the world forging a nail, the nail is not going to be special.

how can you buff an item cl? and what would be the price? the dmg does not have anything about items at different cl
There is a feat, Inspired Master, to treat all your items as +1 CL higher. It's from Dragon #339, page 34.


I'm considering Iron Heat Surge as a possibility for anti-Dispel tactics, but I'm not sure it would work. Does gear you're carrying and attending count as "you" for that purpose (since the item, not you, was the target of the dispel)?
No, that doesn't work.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

i said you can't buff your caster level to the mid forties. you certainly can use your caster level, and even butt it a bit.
but can you increase the caster level of an item? i assume that if the item is said to be cl 8, then it does not matter who is making it, even a level 20 wizard doing that item will do it cl 8. just like the best blacksmith in the world forging a nail, the nail is not going to be special.
Per SRD, Magic Item Basics (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm):

For [magic items other than potions, scrolls, and wands], the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.You can set the CL differently. Pricing is unclear in many cases, though.


cool! and if i make it wizard 4, i have a basis for how expensive it should be.
if i remember correctly, a permanent level 4 spell should be something around 30k gp, which would be a reasonable markup to pay when you start swinging around +6 stuff and the campaign has plenty of loot.If you make it a property of the item then you'd run into the 1.5 pricing issue, of course. If you're homebrewing a Sor/Wiz 4 spell then alternatively you can have a friendly arcanist cast it every day with Chain Spell applied so that [CL] items are affected with one 7th level slot. Buy her a Pearl of Power 7 for her troubles. 49k once is better than ~30k (*1.5) for every item. The downside is that, if the item does suffer a targeted dispel, the Dispelling Buffer has a chance to be outright dispelled instead of suppressed.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

interesting, but tricky in practice.
i assume by the time the party hits the level at which they have to worry about that, they will be rather famous, and so it would be reasonable for plot-related villains to have intel on them. but how much, exactly? i fear i may either make the tactic too powerful, or too useless.

It doesn't exactly matter if they know you're wearing it, they need to be able to see the item to target it. Wear both rings on the same hand with a glove over them. Wear a long robe over everything, which covers your armor, bracers, necklace, cape, belt, shirt, and even boots. They're all attended items and an extension of your character, but a dispel targeted on your character doesn't affect your items, so that doesn't matter. Hiding the items themselves prevents them from being targeted directly.

[Telonius]

Making an item out of Riverine (Stormwrack) would make it completely immune to Dispel Magic (though not to Disjunction). There's an "Other Items" line in the pricing, so that gives a whole lot more wiggle room than just armor, though the fluff description mentions only walls and containers.

[King of Nowhere]

It doesn't exactly matter if they know you're wearing it, they need to be able to see the item to target it. Wear both rings on the same hand with a glove over them. Wear a long robe over everything, which covers your armor, bracers, necklace, cape, belt, shirt, and even boots. They're all attended items and an extension of your character, but a dispel targeted on your character doesn't affect your items, so that doesn't matter. Hiding the items themselves prevents them from being targeted directly.

:smallconfused: if a glove was enough to prevent line of sight, then a burqua would make you untargettable.

[Psyren]

:smallconfused: if a glove was enough to prevent line of sight, then a burqua would make you untargettable.

It's not about YOU being untargetable though. No matter what you wear, an enemy can still see that you're there and thus target you. But for a chained dispel magic that is trying to hit your gear, the enemy has to target the item(s) specifically. If they can't see that you're wearing a magic belt under your duster or carrying a luckstone in your pocket, they can't target it. So hiding your gear under your clothing can still be useful. Some of it won't be practical to hide - if you're using a magic sword, you probably need to be wielding it to use it - but it means that a chained dispel can't suppress every bonus you're wearing.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It's not about YOU being untargetable though.Dispel magic cannot affect your items if you are the target. It has to target the items themselves, unless I completely misread the spell.

[Psyren]

Dispel magic cannot affect your items if you are the target. It has to target the items themselves, unless I completely misread the spell.

I know that - reread the post I was replying to.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I know that - reread the post I was replying to.Ah, sorry. But it is still a viable statement, if only to back up your statement. I think.

Sorry, I had a late night last night and slept in. Still groggy.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

:smallconfused: if a glove was enough to prevent line of sight, then a burqua would make you untargettable.

No, because your character and his attended items are a single entity. That's why using a tower shield to gain total cover doesn't block you from being targeted, because the shield is still your attended object and can be targeted to affect the character with a spell.

This does not extend to items you're carrying being targeted by Dispel Magic, though. Simply targeting the character with Dispel Magic won't affect any of his items. The individual items need to be targeted, but the robe or glove isn't an extension of that item, it's an extension of the character. So targeting the character's glove with a dispel doesn't affect the rings worn under it.

[King of Nowhere]

then chain spell - dispel is not a good strategy at all, because it is easily blocked with mundane means. or it's a "dm-may-I?" where you ask if your opponent is wearing gloves and his necklace underneath his shirt.
that won't do for actual gaming. if i am to use this, i need to have some hard rules on which items can be targeted by a dispel magic by default, and which cannot.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

then chain spell - dispel is not a good strategy at all, because it is easily blocked with mundane means. or it's a "dm-may-I?" where you ask if your opponent is wearing gloves and his necklace underneath his shirt.
that won't do for actual gaming. if i am to use this, i need to have some hard rules on which items can be targeted by a dispel magic by default, and which cannot.

Assume it's visible/targetable unless it's specifically stated that the item is hidden.

Edit: In some cases it's pretty obvious that something is hidden. A magical shirt or vest under full plate, for example. This is a situation where you ask your DM for a description, and specifically say you're looking for potential worn magic items you can see.

[Psyren]

then chain spell - dispel is not a good strategy at all, because it is easily blocked with mundane means. or it's a "dm-may-I?" where you ask if your opponent is wearing gloves and his necklace underneath his shirt.
that won't do for actual gaming. if i am to use this, i need to have some hard rules on which items can be targeted by a dispel magic by default, and which cannot.

1) Dispelling someone's items is supposed to be hard (or at least, possible to make hard), for exactly the reason you describe - it shafts some classes (particularly martials) more than others, if not entirely. That doesn't make Chain Dispel useless, because it can still target multiple creatures, or multiple buffs on a creature.
.
2) There are some items you can't plausibly hide while using them/wear underneath other clothing, like your weapon and shield, or a cloak or boots, or your handy haversack. So if you really want this tactic to be used, there should be some items the enemy won't have hidden, especially if they don't anticipate this tactic and are just wearing their gear normally. But being able to hide some pieces means that a caster can't strip you of every item-based buff you have on in a single action. That's actually a good thing because it makes the game less swingy - a character who has had some of their items chain-dispelled still has a fighting chance, instead of being knocked down several EL because their wealth is effectively zero for X rounds.

3) As mentioned above - the enemy has to know that this tactic is coming and hide their items accordingly. Even if they do, there is counterplay - the outer layers of clothing can be sundered, and this is fairly easy if they themselves are non-magical. (And if they are magical, just suppress them.)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Targeting items in and of itself is a bit risky. Is the Barbarian's pointed-teeth-necklace magical, or is the string of ears around his neck the magic item, or maybe the blue pendant on a silver chain he's wearing, or even the sexy black lace choker? What about the guy with a ring on every finger, are you going to spend ten chain spell dispel targets on those just to hit up to two magic rings? Is the wizard wearing a magic hat, or is the bandanna on his head that you can barely see magical, or maybe he has a magical circlet underneath all of that which you can't even see? What if none of that stuff is even magical at all?

Not to mention the absurd amount of time it would take to recalculate all of their AC, attacks, saves, etc. if some/most of a character's magic items were suddenly but temporarily gone. An what good will it do to reduce the +1 Greatsword to a Masterwork Greatsword, it's still going to hit just as hard and still going to easily outdamage the target's DR/Magic.

Whereas dropping a Time Hop on the big guy's greatsword is guaranteed to reduce his effectiveness to pitiful if it succeeds, with almost no paperwork at all.

If I was running a game in which a player decided he'll Chain Spell Dispel every humanoid opponent's magic items, I'd make every NPC look absurd and include every detail in the descriptions.

If I was playing in a game in which the DM had opponents using Chain Spell Dispel on our items, I'd make my character look absurd and conceal all the actual magical items possible (and wear magic socks under mundane boots!). For those that couldn't be concealed, I'd put too many decoys out there for them to target everything, and encourage the rest of the party to do the same.

[Psyren]

^ That's another good point - stat gains from worn items tend to be constant / permanent, and typically get ingrained to a character's calculations in a way that temporary buffs don't. When disabling/suppressing items becomes a standard tactic, it can mean a lot of bookkeeping as fundamentals like AC, saves, and attack rolls need to be recalculated, especially when they then need to be restored a scant 1d4 rounds later. This is another reason the game discourages targeting items for things like this in the first place.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

This chain dispel tactic really does sound tedious to adjudicate. It makes me thankful the writers had the good sense to add a clause that area dispels don't affect magic items so this process isn't triggered by accident. I wonder how many people ignore the "unattended objects are also damaged" clause in Fireball's spell description for that reason (I know I do, or at least I take a liberal view of what's attended).

I suppose the "cover items" tactic works against Disjunction as well, since it blocks LoE.

[Psyren]

The real headache is Acid Fog :smalltongue:

[King of Nowhere]

1) Dispelling someone's items is supposed to be hard (or at least, possible to make hard), for exactly the reason you describe - it shafts some classes (particularly martials) more than others, if not entirely. That doesn't make Chain Dispel useless, because it can still target multiple creatures, or multiple buffs on a creature.

That's actually a good thing because it makes the game less swingy - a character who has had some of their items chain-dispelled still has a fighting chance, instead of being knocked down several EL because their wealth is effectively zero for X rounds.



and that's exactly why i was looking for some resistance, so that a chain dispel would not succeed against all items. while at the same time not requiring elaborate descriptions or creativity every single time.



2) there should be some items the enemy won't have hidden, especially if they don't anticipate this tactic
the enemy has to know that this tactic is coming and hide their items accordingly


last campaign i played at high level in my setting, every high level combat began with a disjunction. on both sides. both sides tried to debuff the opponents first, because hurting them when they were fully loaded was too hard. everyone who could get a contingency got a contingency to avoid a disjunction, or teleported into fight with a readied action to counterspell a disjunction.
chain magic - dispel was not available in the last campaign. but it's superior to disjunction for debuffing, because
- most people had hugely beefed up will saves, so disjunction was less effective than it may have been. whereas greater dispel magic is almost guaranteed success.
- disjunction ruins your loot.

therefore, i predict that unless i nerf the combo to the point of uselessness, everyone's first resort in a high level humanoid fight would be dispelling items.
there's no way anyone would not anticipate it and not take all possible measures against it.

also, everyone had some form of arcane sight.
the idea of wearing fake magic rings as decoy for dispelling is interesting, though. it will be a high loot campaign, and i already established in that world that there are weak magic items made to register more powerful than they really are (though as a joke, worn by rich people who were trying to show off)

i fear this will overcomplicate the game, though. it's much easier to declare all worn items targetable. i'll have to see



3) the outer layers of clothing can be sundered,

thinking about it, hitting a piece of clothing is fairly easy, and they are easy to break.
:smallconfused::smallbiggrin:[stripping people with a weapon]:smallconfused::smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

and that's exactly why i was looking for some resistance, so that a chain dispel would not succeed against all items. while at the same time not requiring elaborate descriptions or creativity every single time.

last campaign i played at high level in my setting, every high level combat began with a disjunction. on both sides. both sides tried to debuff the opponents first, because hurting them when they were fully loaded was too hard. everyone who could get a contingency got a contingency to avoid a disjunction, or teleported into fight with a readied action to counterspell a disjunction.
chain magic - dispel was not available in the last campaign. but it's superior to disjunction for debuffing, because
- most people had hugely beefed up will saves, so disjunction was less effective than it may have been. whereas greater dispel magic is almost guaranteed success.
- disjunction ruins your loot.

therefore, i predict that unless i nerf the combo to the point of uselessness, everyone's first resort in a high level humanoid fight would be dispelling items.
there's no way anyone would not anticipate it and not take all possible measures against it.

also, everyone had some form of arcane sight.
the idea of wearing fake magic rings as decoy for dispelling is interesting, though. it will be a high loot campaign, and i already established in that world that there are weak magic items made to register more powerful than they really are (though as a joke, worn by rich people who were trying to show off)

i fear this will overcomplicate the game, though. it's much easier to declare all worn items targetable. i'll have to see

I'm afraid I still don't understand. If that's your worry, then why are measures like ring of counterspells or a spellblade unreasonable? Because those are the best way to stop this tactic from becoming as commonplace as you fear.


thinking about it, hitting a piece of clothing is fairly easy, and they are easy to break.
:smallconfused::smallbiggrin:[stripping people with a weapon]:smallconfused::smallbiggrin:

Well, it's easy in 3.5, provided you're not up against a high-Dex opponent. In Pathfinder, you have to beat CMD, so the slow bruisers' clothes are also hard to hit.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Just Energy Missile (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyMissile.htm) all their clothes off, Time Hop (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeHop.htm) all their magic items, and call it a day.

[Gavinfoxx]

http://web.archive.org/web/20150928082035/http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1239466

Spells to protect against:
Dispel Magic (Player's Handbook / SRD) << Common!
Greater Dispel Magic (Player's Handbook / SRD) << Common!
Dispelling Touch (player's Handbook II)
Chain Dispel (Player's Handbook II) << Nasty!
Reaving Dispel (Spell Compendium) << NASTY
Slashing Dispel (Player's Handbook II) << Nasty!
Dispelling Breath (Spell Compendium)
Dispelling Screen (Spell Compendium)
Greater Dispelling Screen (Spell Compendium)
Wall of Dispel Magic (Spell Compendium)
Wall of Greater Dispel Magic (Spell Compendium)
Mage's Disjunction (Player's Handbook / SRD) << Very nasty! Somewhat of a nuclear option for opposing spellcasters!
Arcane Turmoil (Complete Mage)
Tenacious Dispelling (Complete Mage)
Spelltheft (Complete Scoundrel) << Nasty!


Epic level spells to protect against:
Superb Dispelling (SRD) (That seems to be the traditional one, there should be others most likely, but that would be the most common and traditional)

Invocations to protect against:
Relentless Dispelling (Complete Mage)
Voracious Dispelling (Complete Arcane)
Devour Magic (Complete Arcane)
Caster's Lament (Complete Mage)

Psionic Powers to protect against
Dispel Psionics (SRD)


Spells that might help us:

NOTE: "DISPEL SHIELD" FROM IMARVINTPA is *not* a D&D spell! They made it up! The closest spell to that is actually a psionic power, which is really a very very nice power for this purpose. It's called "Dispelling Buffer". Maybe this exists as a spell as well?
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dispellingBuffer.htm

One option is 'sacrificial' high caster level, but otherwise easy to dispel spells? Ones that will 'go first', for purpose of an ablative screen for area dispel magic type effects.

-Spell Turning (Players Handbook) (This is just kinda okay... not great)

-Use Abrupt Jaunt or other Instantaneous teleportation to get out of Area of Effect or prevent yourselves from being targeted by spells.

-Break Line of Effect with Shrink Item things that are enlarged when needed (ie, wear a magical hat that is a Shrink Itemed cone of leather or something, and be followed around by a magical helper that is constantly readying an action to cast dispel magic from an item on the cone if you are targeted with a dispel magic effect, causing you to be enveloped by the cone, thereby breaking line of effect, and letting you dimension door or abrupt jaunt or whatever out of the way)

-Break line of Effect with Contingent Wings of Cover

Items:

Ring of Counterspells (DMG/SRD) (Put Dispel Magic in it)

Ring of Greater Counterspells (Magic Item Compendium, Put Greater Dispel Magic in it)

Ring of Spell Battle (Magic Item Compendium)

Ring of Enduring Arcana (Complete Mage, Maybe not appropriate for us?)

Spellblade, Magic of Faerun, page 141 (combine with multiple ways of getting 'wielded' weapons on one's person? IE, poison rings, braid blade, armor spikes, dancing shield (maybe), gauntlets and spiked gauntlets, boot spikes, etc.)

Rod of Reversal (Magic Item Compendium)

[King of Nowhere]

I'm afraid I still don't understand. If that's your worry, then why are measures like ring of counterspells or a spellblade unreasonable? Because those are the best way to stop this tactic from becoming as commonplace as you fear.



i am not completely averse to those, but the main problem is complexity. all those "active" defences, i.e. defences that work by triggering a reaction, make the game very hard to manage. especially when a good half of the party doesn't have the mechanical prowess to handle those things. it did happen in the previous campaign, and there was no major fight where we wouldn't realize afterwards that we forgot to take into account some important mechanic that would have radically altered it all.

so i try to streamline things as much as possible toward "you have to roll and beat a certain DC". it allows reasonable optimization and meaningful interaction as both sides can slap as many plusses to their roll or dc as they can find, while keeping the game simple enough. it worked pretty well last time, allowing people of widely different mechanical skill to play together without the more skilled players having to sabotage their effectiveness.
the next campaign will be set in the same world about one century later, where a lot of progress was made in both technology and magic. I will be allowing a lot of strategies that were formerly restricted1 under the guise of "this is a new thing that was discovered in the last century". at the same time, i still want to keep the game simple as simple as possible not too much complicated.
going full 5-D chess would be more than me, or most of my table, could handle. plus, it would feel more like a "gotcha! i dug into this obscure splatbook and found this obscure resource against which you did not think to prepare" than a solid worldbuilding.


1 before i'm mistaken for a restrictive dm banning every cool stuff, i must clarify that i banned mostly in concert with the players. many times i told them "if you want you can use this new resource, but then your enemies will also be able to do it, and it introduces complicated mechanics. everyone can use it, or it does not exhist in this world, you decide".

[ShurikVch]

The Magic Item CF of Fiend of Possession PrC (Fiend Folio) shouldn't be dispellable at all (since it's Su)
So, call a bunch of fiends, ask them to inhabit your items - this way you would be not just impervious to dispells (including even feared Mordenkainen's Disjunction!), but would be even able to change properties of your equipment on the fly without switching for other items
(Also, in this case, your character would be justified to call their items by names and even conversing with them! :smallamused:)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The Magic Item CF of Fiend of Possession PrC (Fiend Folio) shouldn't be dispellable at all (since it's Su)
So, call a bunch of fiends, ask them to inhabit your items - this way you would be not just impervious to dispells (including even feared Mordenkainen's Disjunction!), but would be even able to change properties of your equipment on the fly without switching for other items
(Also, in this case, your character would be justified to call their items by names and even conversing with them! :smallamused:)I can't help but think that there may be some fairly obvious downsides to that situation that you might not be aware of... :smalltongue:

[ShurikVch]

I can't help but think that there may be some fairly obvious downsides to that situation that you might not be aware of... :smalltongue:Only if you not prepared accordingly
If you're already Evil, and those Fiends are serving the same power as you, they shouldn't cause much problem
But, even if you're not Evil, you may cheat it by being a Malconvoker, or just being devious in general - say, call every of those fiends from a different plane then all other, and let them fight for your soul
(I. e. "pull the Skyrim protagonist (https://www.deviantart.com/spynder4/art/Daedric-debate-Sithis-373393508)")