I have banned microwaves

[Jon_Dahl]

Many, many years ago, my former DM told me that some spells that occupy a certain a certain space must have that space in order to work. For instance, flame strike creates a cylinder (10-ft. radius, 40 ft. high). If you can't fit that cylinder into the desired space, then you can't cast the spell. For instance, if the ceiling is 10 ft. high, you can't cast flame strike. You would need 40 ft.

My ex-DM explained it like this: "Otherwise, you can cast flame strike inside a hole in the wall and thus have your own microwave. Just put food into the hole followed by flame strike. Voilà."
I tend to agree with ex-DM. You can't have microwaves in my game.

What do you think about microwaves in D&D?

[Afghanistan]

I know this might not be the answer you are looking for, but have you considered just casting Prestidigitation instead of Flame Strike?

[ftafp]

I think that wouldn't be a microwave so much as an incinerator. If you were to invent a microwave, my complaint would be that you're just inventing a terrible new way to ruin perfectly good food.

In all seriousness though I think it's perfectly reasonable to rule that certain area of effect spells don't work in an enclosed space provided it makes sense. Frankly, in my weekly 5e game I'm getting sick of our druid using moonbeam indoors, but if the question is whether you can use flame strike on a 5x5x5 hole in the ground, I'd say that particular case seems fine as long as you still have the column of fire above it

[RNightstalker]

Many, many years ago, my former DM told me that some spells that occupy a certain a certain space must have that space in order to work. For instance, flame strike creates a cylinder (10-ft. radius, 40 ft. high). If you can't fit that cylinder into the desired space, then you can't cast the spell. For instance, if the ceiling is 10 ft. high, you can't cast flame strike. You would need 40 ft.

My ex-DM explained it like this: "Otherwise, you can cast flame strike inside a hole in the wall and thus have your own microwave. Just put food into the hole followed by flame strike. Voilà."
I tend to agree with ex-DM. You can't have microwaves in my game.

What do you think about microwaves in D&D?

What would you or your DM say about fireball being cast in a 10' room?

[NotASpiderSwarm]

I'm pretty sure the rule in 2E was that if you cast a spell in an area that's too small for it, the effect is multiplied. Given how volume scales, this was mostly a way for DMs to TPK their parties over the Wizard being a bit too fireball-happy.

[RNightstalker]

I'm pretty sure the rule in 2E was that if you cast a spell in an area that's too small for it, the effect is multiplied. Given how volume scales, this was mostly a way for DMs to TPK their parties over the Wizard being a bit too fireball-happy.

Yeah either that or it spilled out to fulfill the AoE. But are there any hard and fast rules regarding this in 3.x?

[Telonius]

I wouldn't ban it (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#area):


When casting a cylinder-shaped spell, you select the spell’s point of origin. This point is the center of a horizontal circle, and the spell shoots down from the circle, filling a cylinder. A cylinder-shaped spell ignores any obstructions within its area.

As long as you have line of effect to the point of origin, the cylinder spreads out horizontally until it fills the circle, then shoots down from there. Walls don't matter. You nuke the microwave and everything outside and below it too. (Hope you weren't standing too close).

[KillianHawkeye]

I guess it's fine if you okay throwing a huge nerf on practically ALL area spells. :smallconfused:

[Endarire]

I'm pro-microwave at present.

[icefractal]

Is the point to soft-ban AoE spells while leaving them as a trap option? They already tend to be among the weaker spells, and this makes them impossible to use in many situations.

Also, I don't get the microwave example. If cooking incinerating your food with Flame Strike was something you wanted to do, you could still do it by setting the food on the ground outside and zapping it.

[calam]

On the microwave standpoint I don't think much food can survive the minimum 7d6 damage of this microwave. From a balance standpoint I don't see why you'd want to create such a weird nerf. Would any roof block the spell from activating including awnings? Will I never have to fear the wrath of mid level divine blasters if I have a large enough umbrella?

Plus prestidigitation or heat metal would make much better microwaves (although heat metal sadly doesn't have a consistent temperature).

[zlefin]

Many, many years ago, my former DM told me that some spells that occupy a certain a certain space must have that space in order to work. For instance, flame strike creates a cylinder (10-ft. radius, 40 ft. high). If you can't fit that cylinder into the desired space, then you can't cast the spell. For instance, if the ceiling is 10 ft. high, you can't cast flame strike. You would need 40 ft.

My ex-DM explained it like this: "Otherwise, you can cast flame strike inside a hole in the wall and thus have your own microwave. Just put food into the hole followed by flame strike. Voilà."
I tend to agree with ex-DM. You can't have microwaves in my game.

What do you think about microwaves in D&D?
that makes no sense, since microwave do not operate in the same way that a flame strike does. It sounds like they had no idea of how cooking works irl; let alone how to assess the cooking effects of spells.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I think what some poeple are misinterpreting is how this 'hole' with which the microwave is constructed, is not vertical (where you could fall into it if sufficiently small enough), but horizontal (as in a cavity in a vertical wall). And casting Flame Strike within this horizontal hole, having an effective vertical height of [hole's diameter], much less than Flame Strike's listed size. While I can see where the DM was coming from, its a non-issue. Like others have said, its a weird and random soft-nerf to AoE's, even ones that would explicitly work around them (such as Spreads) or not accounting for the fact that AoE's still damage the environment.

[Max Caysey]

Many, many years ago, my former DM told me that some spells that occupy a certain a certain space must have that space in order to work. For instance, flame strike creates a cylinder (10-ft. radius, 40 ft. high). If you can't fit that cylinder into the desired space, then you can't cast the spell. For instance, if the ceiling is 10 ft. high, you can't cast flame strike. You would need 40 ft.

My ex-DM explained it like this: "Otherwise, you can cast flame strike inside a hole in the wall and thus have your own microwave. Just put food into the hole followed by flame strike. Voilà."
I tend to agree with ex-DM. You can't have microwaves in my game.

What do you think about microwaves in D&D?

With this ruling, if there are targets in the area they would be blocking the spell, thus making flame strike impossible to use. Naturally your ex-DM’s view is wrong.

[Chaos Jackal]

Well, if you believe AoE spells are meant only for open fields, sure? It basically removes this kind of spell in any dungeon-crawling, mansion-searching, urban-fighting, cave-exploring etc. scenario. And these scenarios aren't exactly uncommon in fantasy tabletops.

Why would a pillar of fire showing up in the middle of the room be unable to show up if the room has a lower ceiling? It would just be a smaller pillar. Just as hot, just as capable of burning up things, and just as unable to cook, because instant application of fire leads to various degrees of charring, not cooking.

[sithlordnergal]

Ehhh, gonna have to say this would be a poor rule to put in place. It basically nerfs any and all AoE spells. Fireball and Lightning Bolt, which are staple 3rd level spells, become useless unless you're in a room that can hold a 40 feet diameter sphere, I.E. a room that is at least 40 feet long, 40 feet wide, and 40ft tall., or you're in a room that is 120ft long.

[Dimers]

So if you want to Fireball an enemy standing on the ground, you have to aim 30' above them, and you can't also hit the creatures standing ten feet away from them? ... That doesn't sound like a very fun rule. If you ask me, which you did. :smalltongue:

I do favor microwaves in D&D. I want to grab a Gentle-Reposed dragon steak from my brown-mold freezer, pop it in the At-Will Item Of Pretidigitation And PurifyFood&Drink, and spend the cooking time saved chatting with friends.

[Bavarian itP]

I'm pretty sure the rule in 2E was that if you cast a spell in an area that's too small for it, the effect is multiplied. Given how volume scales, this was mostly a way for DMs to TPK their parties over the Wizard being a bit too fireball-happy.

Relevant: https://irregularwebcomic.net/1004.html

[Aotrs Commander]

*skullpalm*

That's just stupid, I'm sorry, mate. Both in reasoning and in game mechanics. Basically what your DM is really saying is "I don't want you to use area-effect spells in my game (or specifically cylibner attack spells)."

One: That's not how area spells work. A cylinder spell you pick the origin point (within line of effect) and it comes down from there. (The ground/floor is not an "obstruction" if it blocks the entire area of the spell, same as why bursts only go around corners not through walls and emanations and spreads don't even do that.)

Even IF you want to rule a cylinder ignores terrain (floors/ceilings etc) entirely (and good luck explaining that one with something like Stone Call which has physical objects and not fire) then it STILL isn't a "microwave" because it's simply ignoring the terrain as if it wasn't there ANYWAY. Not dealing damage to it, not traveling through, IGNORING IT. So it is literally no different to putting a chicken on a stone floor a few feet in front of you and casting Flamestrike on it. It is NOT going to cook the chicken, it'll incinerate it. You couldn't EVEN use it to cook a 40' section of some giant dead creature, because by that ruling, it ignores the terrain (which would be the flesh of the creature.)



Two: In no way is a 5th fire-and-sacred attack spell a microwave. That's not how microwaves work (for a kick off) and it's not even how ovens work. Attempting to "cook" with Flamestrike is silliness on the order of the cartoon "it takes one hour to cook at 200ºC, so I'll cook at for six minutes at 2000ºC!"

Not to mentioned whichever way you look at if if you can do that with Flamestrike, you can do it with Fireball, just from standing further away, or Burning Hands if you stand closer. (Actually as cones very explictly don't go through walls, a box on the wall you Burning Hands into would be much more practical, even.)

I tell you DM what, why don't they try cooking a tin of baked beans with a flamethrower (they can have their local priest or other relgious person as appropriate bless the petrol of whatever, and then stand on a ladder and shoot downwards for extra accuracy if they like) and then come back and tell me that has the same effect as cooking it in a microwave.

No? Well, then.



Frack's sake, microwaves are not even FIRE, they're electromagnetic radiation; if they were saying you can use Sunbeam to cook things they might even be closer to the truth or you were playing in 4E or 5E (or 3.Aotrs) where Radiant damage was a proper thing they might be halfway towards a point.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Is anyone reminded of that "How hard do I have to slap a chicken to cook it? (https://imgur.com/gallery/ncAFBU9)" meme? I'll be the Nth to say "that's not how microwaves/cooking/physics/magic/anything works."

This would be funnier if some loony deity in-game banned their clerics from doing this sort of thing because the deity didn't want its followers using its divine gifts to cook a chicken, hypothetically.

[False God]

*skullpalm*

That's just stupid, I'm sorry, mate. Both in reasoning and in game mechanics. Basically what your DM is really saying is "I don't want you to use area-effect spells in my game (or specifically cylibner attack spells)."

One: That's not how area spells work. A cylinder spell you pick the origin point (within line of effect) and it comes down from there. (The ground/floor is not an "obstruction" if it blocks the entire area of the spell, same as why bursts only go around corners not through walls and emanations and spreads don't even do that.)

Even IF you want to rule a cylinder ignores terrain (floors/ceilings etc) entirely (and good luck explaining that one with something like Stone Call which has physical objects and not fire) then it STILL isn't a "microwave" because it's simply ignoring the terrain as if it wasn't there ANYWAY. Not dealing damage to it, not traveling through, IGNORING IT. So it is literally no different to putting a chicken on a stone floor a few feet in front of you and casting Flamestrike on it. It is NOT going to cook the chicken, it'll incinerate it. You couldn't EVEN use it to cook a 40' section of some giant dead creature, because by that ruling, it ignores the terrain (which would be the flesh of the creature.)



Two: In no way is a 5th fire-and-sacred attack spell a microwave. That's not how microwaves work (for a kick off) and it's not even how ovens work. Attempting to "cook" with Flamestrike is silliness on the order of the cartoon "it takes one hour to cook at 200ºC, so I'll cook at for six minutes at 2000ºC!"

Not to mentioned whichever way you look at if if you can do that with Flamestrike, you can do it with Fireball, just from standing further away, or Burning Hands if you stand closer. (Actually as cones very explictly don't go through walls, a box on the wall you Burning Hands into would be much more practical, even.)

I tell you DM what, why don't they try cooking a tin of baked beans with a flamethrower (they can have their local priest or other relgious person as appropriate bless the petrol of whatever, and then stand on a ladder and shoot downwards for extra accuracy if they like) and then come back and tell me that has the same effect as cooking it in a microwave.

No? Well, then.



Frack's sake, microwaves are not even FIRE, they're electromagnetic radiation; if they were saying you can use Sunbeam to cook things they might even be closer to the truth or you were playing in 4E or 5E (or 3.Aotrs) where Radiant damage was a proper thing they might be halfway towards a point.

This is exactly why I try not to drag too much IRL physics into my magical questions.

---
@OP: Magic does magic stuff. It looks realistic because your character is an "IRL person" within his world using the magic to simulate certain real-world effects (like explosions). But ultimately, the spells limitations are a result of it's magic. A fireball does not burn hotter because the room was smaller. It just loses some of it's effects. Because it's MAGIC, not PHYSICS.

[SirNibbles]

So if you want to Fireball an enemy standing on the ground, you have to aim 30' above them, and you can't also hit the creatures standing ten feet away from them? ... That doesn't sound like a very fun rule. If you ask me, which you did. :smalltongue:

That reminds me of a thread I did on cone areas (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?590101-Cone-Areas-(3-5)) a while back. I guess you couldn't use cones with this DM unless you also aimed them up...and there were no trees or structures or anything else in the area.

[Zarrgon]

Microwaves are fine in my game. You want to waste a flame strike to char a bagel: go right ahead.

I use magic to counter magic in my game.

Plus I do the spells harm objects way too.

[Nifft]

That reminds me of a thread I did on cone areas (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?590101-Cone-Areas-(3-5)) a while back. I guess you couldn't use cones with this DM unless you also aimed them up...and there were no trees or structures or anything else in the area.

Hmm, yeah, a 3D cone with no ground intersection would be pretty similar to a line at ground level.

Still vaguely useful outside against giants & fliers, but not so great if there's a ceiling.

[D+1]

Many, many years ago, my former DM told me that some spells that occupy a certain a certain space must have that space in order to work.I have never, ever heard of such a rule - not even as a house rule. Any DM who announced such a rule to me would probably have me gathering my things to go home, unless they could then verbally Riverdance their way to convincing me it made even the LEAST bit of sense.

[Segev]

Much of the more analytical side of this has already been said, so I just have one question:

Why is using a 5th-level spell to cook your food so horribly broken that you need to make this broad-based ruling in order to prevent it?

[Jon_Dahl]

Much of the more analytical side of this has already been said, so I just have one question:

Why is using a 5th-level spell to cook your food so horribly broken that you need to make this broad-based ruling in order to prevent it?

I'm nostalgic and my ex-DM was also my first DM. Banning microwave ovens in my game is my modest tribute to him. Other than that, I have, so far, enjoyed this discussion. Rather good points of view and some good arguments.

[Melcar]

I'm nostalgic and my ex-DM was also my first DM. Banning microwave ovens in my game is my modest tribute to him. Other than that, I have, so far, enjoyed this discussion. Rather good points of view and some good arguments.

With all due respect, this is probably the worst and most incorrect house rule I have ever read about... At no point in is this House rule even remotely close to the rules as written or as intended in any way... I award you no points, and may AO have mercy on your soul!

[KillianHawkeye]

I'm waiting for people who have played some obscure cooking-related RPG to show up and tell us what we're all doing wrong...

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Tributes are usually ceremonial, as opposed to having large functional impacts on things. With that in mind, might it be a better tribute to more narrowly ban the use of area spells as ovens, microwave or otherwise, where "ovens" are defined for this purpose as spaces smaller than 5' by 5'? So the Cleric can cast Flame Strike in a dungeon area with a 35' ceiling, but he can't cast it in a small hole to turn a chicken into inedible ash and dust.

[bekeleven]

I'm waiting for people who have played some obscure cooking-related RPG to show up and tell us what we're all doing wrong...

This is lowkey reminding me of the old stone to flesh essay. Since the only source I can find it weird old forum posts, I'll reproduce it in my own weird new forum post:


Stone to Flesh: the arcane Create Food spell. An essay on its uses and limitations.
By Varthalon Fitz-Amanodel.

As with many arcane spells, Stone to Flesh has applications other than its primary goal of rescuing lost souls from the stone gaze of medusi and basilisks. One such often over-looked alternate is as a source of high-quality food for many. The world of stone to fleshed meats is a wonderful culinary universe open for the inquisitive mind and taste buds to explore. First, let us discuss some general guidelines for stone/meat selection then a few cautions, finally we’ll finish up with some of my personal favorites.

Now, all stone tastes different, ask any xorn, and the same holds true after you have converted it to flesh, so your initial selection is very important to the end results your going to achieve. The first rule to remember is in the type of rock involved. Generally, Sedimentary rock is considered the lowest quality for our purposes, while Igneous rock generally are the highest quality. The quality of Metamorphic rock varies widely and while some, like marble, are excellent for our purposes, others - like schist and slate - are totally unsuitable.

A second factor to consider is the condition of the rock itself. Worked stone often produces a richer, ‘domesticated’ flavor to its meats, while native stone is usually ‘gamier’ in flavor. Avoid stones that have lain exposed to direct sunlight for long periods of time. I also prefer to cut my steaks from the interior of the stone, for hygienic reasons.

A quick word about rare and special meats. While I LOVE a good necklace of diamonds converted, dipped in lemon sauce and brazed over a slow flaming sphere I’d caution the casual dinner to be careful with converting rare and precious stones to meats… generally they produce the most exquisite of meals, but some of them are highly addictive (see my essay on the dietary habits of dragons for more details into this addiction). Also, preparing stone from other planes (and even the elemental plane of stone) can produce unexpected results and should only be done under strictly controlled circumstances (I recommend at least a reinforced pentacle with low-level protections spells pre-cast). But for the true connoisseur, such efforts are worthwhile.

Seasonings are also important. Your spell component pouch contains most of your basic seasoning and I encourage you to experiment. More experienced chiefs will want to carry expanded seasoning kits. In general, avoid necromantic components, which tend to give the meat a slightly spoiled taste. Evocation components add some kick and summoning components often have interesting lingering aftertastes. Another piece of advice, allow the meat to warm naturally to room temperature before starting and always use a normal flaming sphere for your cooking (keeping the meat 18 inches from the flames).

Here are four of my personal favorites… I love marble, it produces a very dense meat veined with rich fat which promotes an excellent flavor throughout when cooking. Another favorite is Archean rock, this is among the oldest types of stone known to dwarf and elf and the meat they produce is very, very tender. Granite is naturally salty and thus doesn’t require any spell components for seasoning. Finally, while sandstone usually produces a low-grade, gritty meat, my mentor had a way of breading it that made it a wonderful comfort food.

[Segev]

This is lowkey reminding me of the old stone to flesh essay. Since the only source I can find it weird old forum posts, I'll reproduce it in my own weird new forum post:

Thank you for sharing that; it was a delightful read.

[el minster]

this gave me an idea for a spell. Since we already know lead can effect spells in a way similar to radiation (scrying) so why don't you have a spell that goes through walls and does fire damage even if you have resistance or immunity.

[Doctor Awkward]

I looked up the word non sequitur on Dictionary.com just now and it brought me to this thread.

...Weird.

[el minster]

I looked up the word non sequitur on Dictionary.com just now and it brought me to this thread.

...Weird.

Its related to the name at least

[varthalon]

This is lowkey reminding me of the old stone to flesh essay. Since the only source I can find it weird old forum posts, I'll reproduce it in my own weird new forum post:

LOL... I remember writing that. I'm glad its still out and about. I figured it was lost when Wizards deleted their forums.

[Psyren]

that makes no sense, since microwave do not operate in the same way that a flame strike does. It sounds like they had no idea of how cooking works irl; let alone how to assess the cooking effects of spells.

Yeah that. Microwaves don't involve flames of any description (unless you're doing something very very wrong.)

[nedz]

I've always thought that there should be spells which are more economically focussed.
Whilst blowing things up may be fun, spells which put good food on the table should also be valued.

[Vizzerdrix]

I've always thought that there should be spells which are more economically focussed.
Whilst blowing things up may be fun, spells which put good food on the table should also be valued.

Agreed. Their are a few, but not enough.

On that note, if I wanted to cook with flame strike, I would put a bunch of fist sized rocks in the spell area and heat those. Then, I would use the rocks to heat the food. Several around the base of a pot, then covered with dirt (just the rocks, mind you, as an insulator) Would be enough to get water boiling, or heat a pan. You could also let the stones cool a bit, and put one in the bottom of a sleeping roll to keep your feet toasty too, or use them to dry out boots.

Hmm... What else can we do to optomize hot rocks? :smallconfused:

[Endarire]

Throw the hot rocks at foes for blunt fire damage!

But prestidigitation may do hot rocks better.

[Thunder999]

Cooked food is arguably a finished product made from raw food, so use fabricate to turn a dead pig, wheat and water (pretty sure you can go straight from wheat to bread without the intermediary flower step and we don't need yeast since we can just magic the air bubbles in) into a heap of bacon sandwiches