She-Ra Season 5 | “Hello, Adora”

[Ramza00]

The Final Season will be out May 15th on Netflix.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACsi-7bndYU

Previous Thread.
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?602181-She-Ra-Season-4-is-out-embrace-your-inner-queen!

[The Fury]

Huh. I wonder if our Hordak is going to return. He's pretty conspicuously absent from the trailer.

[DeadMech]

Hurray!

wait... Hello Adora.... Damnit Catra that's not your line. :smalltongue:

[Ramza00]

Hurray!

wait... Hello Adora.... Damnit Catra that's not your line. :smalltongue:

From a 4 syllable line, to a 5 syllable line.

“You know what that is [does hand motion] *growth.*


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NG69hBrkJeU

[Aotrs Commander]

Miffed that it's the final season already, it feels like we barely started (considering it's been five seasons in only two years).

[Ramza00]

Miffed that it's the final season already, it feels like we barely started (considering it's been five seasons in only two years).

I am fine with a 52 episode arc. ( ¿ Have we got confirmation that this last season is 13 episodes ? )

That is what? A 20 hour mini-series or so?

I do want a spin off show!
—either in the same universe,
—or the various show writers and creators getting the ability to build a new thing, based off their wonderful track record!

[KatsOfLoathing]

Shame that we're already at the end of the road, but all of the good cartoons I've watched tend to know when to pull the plug before their quality starts sliding down the drain (though I actually found season 4 to be the best thus far, by leagues and bounds).

I do wonder how the Rebellion vs. the Prime Horde will work out logistically, though. Season 4 made it clear that the Princess Alliance just didn't have the manpower to fight the Horde without the power-up from the Heart of Etheria, and now they're going up against an enemy that's more powerful and more numerous.

Also, digging that remix on the title theme.

[Ramza00]

I do wonder how the Rebellion vs. the Prime Horde will work out logistically, though. Season 4 made it clear that the Princess Alliance just didn't have the manpower to fight the Horde without the power-up from the Heart of Etheria, and now they're going up against an enemy that's more powerful and more numerous.

The pull a reverse Mara, and put Hodrak’s Primes spaceships in the alternate dimension that is Despondos aka the phantom zone.

At the same time they rescue Glimmer’s mom.

Oh yeah they will be fighting the clock to implement this plan for Hordak Prime will be trying to figure out how to use the planet as a Death Star even if he does not understand portal technology like Entrapta and Hordak the original big bad did.

Something something Shadow Weaver also involved.

[Lord Raziere]

Look forward to seeing the final season. Seems good, can't say much more.

[DigoDragon]

Hee, is it my birthday already? Awesome, i been looking forward to how this wraps up.

[LaZodiac]

I am of the opinion that opening themes changing is good, and that they should change each season to better represent the contents of each season.

That being said, keeping the song for She-Ra consistent up to the end, and giving it just a slight twist here is... it's chef finger kisses level good, and I'll allow it.

[understatement]

Wow, okay, I just binged the whole show in 3 days to get ready for the 5th season. So I'll just dump some mishmashed half-awake thoughts here and leave:


This show is absolutely much better than I expected (my sister recommended it, and the last show she 'recommended' to me was Johnny Test). I never watched the original one, so I have not a clue how it holds up, but I'll say that all the colors and aesthetics are so pleasant and the characters are mostly really a ball of fun. Seasons 1 and 2 were nice, but 3 and 4 were plain awesome -- I'll confess that I found the Horde's business x10 more interesting than the Princess stuff, mainly because I didn't really dig any of them that much. And Sea Hawk. I...pretty much skipped past his parts. And the horse.

Yeah.

The main cast is nice to roll with. Adora is all sorts of inspiring and pretty developed. Bow is likable. I'd have to say that Glimmer got me on edge for the second half of season 4, but since she's in Horde Prime's 'care' now it's probably best to cut her a bunch of slack. Catra is -- definitely interesting to watch, but also wants to make me tear out my hair sometimes. Hordak and Shadow Weaver make an awesome set of villains. Scorpia is surprisingly chill to observe. Double Trouble is friggin' perfect. Entrapta is probably my absolute favorite character to watch; she's such an awesome persona of joy and savviness and uh, yeah, I'm just going to throw in that her and Hordak as a couple work in my book.

Moving on...

One of the things I really liked about the show was the tight narrative; everything moved pretty quick, and a lot of things happened in a short span of time. I came into the show knowing that Entrapta was going to switch sides, Catra would stay evil, and Hordak would be mindwiped -- but seeing how the plot arrived to these twists was extremely satisfying and definitely worth the payoff. And the powerup theme; I thought I'd get annoyed by it in the first few episodes, but it makes me smile so much in the later seasons. The whole show's just vibing with this cheesy, yet heartwarming and nuanced themes in it, and I don't regret drying out my eyes to bingewatch it at all. I'm really looking forward to season 5!

[Ramza00]

Spoilers so do not click if you want to remain pure for 6 more days...

But Dreamworks provided a little teaser content of 2 minutes of Adora and Friends, one entire scene. This is the first 2 minutes of Season 05 so no spoilers, just new stuff.


https://youtu.be/6Mb1otSWsUE

[Ramza00]

More Spoilers / Teasers. I guess I will see you all in 3 days.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9l0Nh4U8x0

[Aotrs Commander]

More like in five, in my case, since it'll be Sunday before I start watching it, since Friday will be "last three episodes of Young Justice Season 3."



Yes, I do literally only watch telly three evening a week, plus maybe an hour of cleaning-the-room-telly (defined as "not being good enough for proper Supper Telly) while I... Clean the room.

[Ramza00]

It has begun. People are posting spoilers on twitter, and I can't watch until later tonight :smallfrown:

[Silfir]

I kind of have to question your judgment as far as checking this thread goes, then. It's mildly better than Twitter.

I'm disciplined. I binged the whole thing, but I'm not saying jack. You're lucky.

[KatsOfLoathing]

Just finished the season on opening day. I'll put out some more spoiler-y thoughts in the meantime, but for now...

Overall, a good and satisfying ending, and the fight scenes were great. They definitely upped the animation budget for the final stretch.

Not everyone had a fully-fleshed character arc this season, but that's really hard to do with a cast this large and well-developed. I think the writers did well with the time that they had.

Sad to see it go, I feel like the show was really just starting to hit its stride midway through Season 3. But it's a nicely executed ending, and it left enough open in the end that there can always be sequels and spinoffs if that's what's in the cards.

Interested in finding out what other people think.

[The Fury]

I think I'll give folks some time to watch it before I get into serious spoilers. But I did have a thought about something spoilery...

Those spacesuits! Some of them have transparent bubbles? Yes... Bow's has a transparent bubble for his midriff, Entrapta has one for her boob window? It's silly, but I kind of like it.

[Silfir]

I was struck by how close Netossa and Spinnerella came to sealing their doom when they briefly contemplated "adopting" Frosta. The most dangerous thing you can do in Etheria is become a mother, either naturally or through adoption. You inevitably end up nobly sacrificing your life to protect your children. In the end it wasn't just Angella, but even Shadow Weaver. Hell, Adora even looked to Light Hope for guidance for a while - after leaving Shadow Weaver well behind - and Light Hope didn't make it to the end either. Is there a named mother of a named character who survived?

Meanwhile, being a father makes you effectively immortal. Both of Bow's dads obviously make it, but Micah turned up after years of being presumed dead, stranded in the deadliest place you could imagine, and even Hordak came out of the other end of some horrific repeated brainwashing at the hands of a being who could snuff him out without a second thought - perfectly capable of reminiscing about the moment he picked up Adora to take her in, and how that one seemingly random moment of kindness ended up making all the difference.

All I'm saying is... if I was selling life insurance on Etheria...

[KatsOfLoathing]

Did anyone else get the vibe that a Glimmer/Bow ship was getting pushed for this season?

They're very touchy-feely with each other this season after reconciling their relationship, even more than they usually are (special mention to Bow putting an arm on Glimmer while they sleep, and Glimmer dozing against his shoulder while he's playing the guitar). Their last conversation before the final battle definitely struck a romantic vibe for me - there's even a kiss, though not on the lips. And the flash-forward simulation Adora sees right before everything goes to hell definitely has them as a couple, though I'm still not sure what exactly that scene was meant to represent.

I guess I'm surprised the writers went that direction, though that's not to say the foundation wasn't there. Glimmer and Bow have always had a vibe between them that I've never been able to nail down as platonic or romantic. And they call each other "best friends", but that's hardly the only instance where the show used those words to paper over a romantic interest.

[understatement]

...huh. Wow. What an ending.

Didn't expect DT to show up. But damn, I think the show landed it.

Looking forward to see whatever else Stevenson has up her sleeve.

[Odessa333]

I just finished it myself, and this was quite a ride. So much to unpack! And the fangirl squealing here is real.

[Lord Raziere]

At the beginning:
Looks like Adora is fighting like she has something to prove.

then we go through a journey where Catra gets all her usual tactics shut down by Horde Prime, then we get the horror of the Horde Primes hive mind control thing happening and Catra being the first to prove how it can be defeated. as well as providing drama no matter how good or evil she is. thats what a well-written character can do, I hope to write a character as complex and well designed as Catra someday.

of course the mind control is played for all the drama and horror, very well executed in how friendship can remind them but doesn't entirely break them out of the control- you have to actually break the thing to make sure it sticks. Catra probably just has a very powerful will

and of course one final conflict Adora's feeling like she needs to sacrifice herself and Catra being the one who has to snap her out of it. Shadow sacrificing herself I didn't expect.

but then.....oooh.....

Catra: I love you!
Adora: I love you too!
*They kiss*
ITS CANON!

I legit cheered at that. absolutely phenomenal.

but yeah, this She-Ra reboot was great. I love it. others may say its sad that its ending already, but I don't care, and I personally think, this is was probably the best possible ending we could've got. I really don't see how this could gone another without extending it needlessly. It told its story at a good pace, and it ended when it needed to without feeling rushed. Catra and Adora's relationship in particular was well done and the others were done good in the time that was given to them. could more development have happened? eh, maybe? but I don't think it would've been worth it, you'd have to extend the drama of fighting Horde Prime out more and we've seen the loved one mind controlled trope a million times, there is no need to pad it out with that than what they did with it. that and a villain like Horde Prime who is so effective in such a short amount of time can never last long, otherwise they lose their threatening edge if they do another season.

a few things I liked:
-the twist that Horde Prime didn't need Adora and just said "oh first ones tech? thats all outdated ancient garbage. turns out, I can hack it myself. Why used some stupid tech controlled by my hard to keep contained enemy when I can do the practical thing?" its simply logical in a way you don't often see.
-another is Horde Prime completely bypassing Catra's bargaining chip by basically manipulating it out of Glimmer, showing how he isn't going to foolishly trust something so important to someone he just met while showcasing the terrible lengths he will go to achieve his goals.
-we never actually see Prince Farsight, its just Double Trouble again, who successfully evades being mind controlled by just being a clone and blending in.
-I'm picking up romantic tones between Scorpia and Perfuma, but maybe thats just me
-Netossa and Whirlwind Girl got surprisingly a good focus this season, and how Netossa turned out to basically be She-ra's version of Batman casually revealing she has plans to take out everyone around her is funny.
-as usual, Shadow Weaver remains frustratingly ambiguous until the very end. did she truly wish to save Etheria when she made her plan and simply did not account for the power of emotions, or did she want power for herself and had a change of heart at the last moment? was her last words to Adora and Catra truly heartfelt or just one more manipulation for the greater good before she died? Did she realize she was wrong all along, or did she just finally walk the walk that she keeps telling others to do? We may never know. also I like how everyone just agrees they don't like Shadow Weaver and are suspicious of her even when Horde Prime is trying to end everything
-Horde Prime is a foil to She-Ra, as its implied that even he being in control is just the latest Prime made by another Horde Prime before him and he doesn't have access to all his memories including those of his past selves which he keeps in stasis, probably because they are old and wish to wake up when immortality is discovered- even this Horde Prime in short, is just someone carrying on the first Prime's goals and directives without any true self of his own. Its just that he is the one who is in power and the one willingly continuing this so he is the the evil who gets defeated.
-I had to look for the slight difference in Hordak and Wrong Hordak to tell where they were among the clones often, sure hope they get around to dying the various clones hair and giving them contact lenses, as well as new clothes so that people can actually tell them apart. also how do they reproduce? might want to figure out, Hordak. they can't keep cloning themselves that leaves themselves open to disease.

Overall? glad this series happened, great ending, nicely done emotionally and everything, and Best Friend Squad's road trip across the universe can be something for the imagination, and fandom to do whatever they want with. There are a few questions left unanswered, but none that are important. tightly written, every character serves a purpose and feels distinct and a lot of them get some growth or at least good emotional moments. Catra of course is of course near Zuko levels of good character writing and was just as important a character as Adora was throughout the entire show. Catra's descent into villainy was a great journey to watch, and despite her ascent into being a good person taking place over only one season, feels completely believable and in keeping with her character all throughout, and Catra saving it all by confessing her love to Adora to save her from sacrificing herself is just the crowning part to all of it.

10/10, Catra best character.

[Inspector Valin]

WHOOOOOO!

Loved it. Its a rare season that can make me look back on the rest of a show more fondly. I've always enjoyed the She Ra reboot but this... I straight up loved. ^^ Bravo show! One hell of a finale

[Ramza00]

I did not sleep well 2 nights ago so exhaustion is probably coloring me watching this show yesterday.

I think Season 4 is stronger than Season 5 :smallsigh: . I still loved Season 5 though!

[Ramza00]

I am in a Grumpy Mood, so lets do some Fan Speculation trying to trigger joy and imagination.


How would the series be different if in Season 1...

In the first two episode Adora discovered the She-Ra sword with Catra like normal.
In the 3rd episode Hordak promotes Catra to Force Captain.
In the 5th episode Catra attacks the seagate as normal, but it turns out the Force Captain badge is a rudimentary Hordak Prime mind control device that Etheria's Hordak has been trying out trying to emulate his big brother. Adora frees Catra from the mind control device and Catra thus joins the princess and Brightmoon 39 episodes earlier.

What happens then [in your imagination]... for all the relationships would be changed if Catra joined Brightmoon rebellion way earlier?

[FaerieGodfather]

On the one hand, I feel like Hordak and especially Catra got off too easy. There were some really good hints in the last two episodes that their redemption was going to be a long walk home-- which I appreciated-- but I feel like Glimmer and Scorpia were entirely too willing to accept her face turn without taking their pound of flesh. Bow took longer forgiving Glimmer for exercising her authority than Glimmer took forgiving Catra for murdering her mother.

On the other hand, I also feel like this was a precedent established in the very first season with Adora herself.

It was actually a very nice touch that the people quickest to forgive former members of the Horde weren't the goodest of the good guys... it was the other former members of the Horde.

[Lord Raziere]

I am in a Grumpy Mood, so lets do some Fan Speculation trying to trigger joy and imagination.


How would the series be different if in Season 1...

In the first two episode Adora discovered the She-Ra sword with Catra like normal.
In the 3rd episode Hordak promotes Catra to Force Captain.
In the 5th episode Catra attacks the seagate as normal, but it turns out the Force Captain badge is a rudimentary Hordak Prime mind control device that Etheria's Hordak has been trying out trying to emulate his big brother. Adora frees Catra from the mind control device and Catra thus joins the princess and Brightmoon 39 episodes earlier.

What happens then [in your imagination]... for all the relationships would be changed if Catra joined Brightmoon rebellion way earlier?



Catra would never have formed a friendship with Scorpia, Shadow-Weaver probably gets repromoted to force captain in their place, since the alternative is promoting some random underling like Lonnie to it instead and they're just a side character so....wouldn't be real useful or dramatic. and Shadow-Weaver would continue doing evil things in Catra's place, the question is: would Entrapta still end up on the Horde Side? because her scientific genius influences or outright drives a lot of the plots in the show. Hordak is good, but clearly not as good as Entrapta as she continually does tech BETTER than him and is the brainchild behind the season 1 finale super weapon, and the season 2 and 3 one and is a major factor in horde Prime's defeat in 5

if because of Catra joining early causes Entrapta to not join Horde side....that potentially destroys the entire shows plot. I've no doubt that Shadow Weaver being the manipulative person she is could probably pull off manipulating Entrapta to the Horde's side even better than Catra, the question is whether that would take place, or whether Shadow weaver would care to try when there is a nice a shiny Adora to go after.

to be small steps about this:
Episode 6: basically the same but with Catra being worried for Adora being taken over like she was
Episode 7: basically the same, but this Catra is there to agree with Adora and back her up on this so this turns out even worse for Shadow Weaver if Catra is around to double check Adora

Episode 8: Princess Prom, this is where things really start to diverge. here, Catra is not with the Horde, so Shadow weaver and Scorpia are the ones sent instead. Shadow weaver isn't stupid enough to double cross a neutral party by planting heat bombs and thus turn Frosta against the Horde, while Catra and Adora have Issues with Shadow weaver who'd know how to play both of them like a fiddle, both Catra and Adora know her and her tricks, but at the same time this season 1 without much character development so they'll probably fall for it, though what actually comes from this depends on Shadow Weavers plan specifically. would she kidnap Adora's friends, focus on kidnapping Adora, or would she simply restrain herself and do nothing to get in good with Frosta to secure an ally while Adora and Catra dig their own hole by suspecting a trap where there is none? its where everything starts getting uncertain

Episode 9: might not even happen. because if Shadow weaver does not decide to kidnap Adora or her friends and just secure an alliance with Frosta, then Entrapta never gets lost in the Fright Zone. Frosta while powerful, is no replacement for Entrapta's tech genius. which means Entrapta never meets Hordak in the circumstances she did, and thus never sets him on the path to goodness.

then of course, the following episodes after that change dramatically as Catra and Entrapta aren't there to make that crystal thing happen, the Battle of Brightmoon never takes place, Shadow-Weaver leaving the Horde and the world ending in Season 2/3 never take place, Season 4 is unrecognizable and if Catra is there to tell Adora not to be a martyr all the time and to stop listening to Light Hope out of suspicion that could be worse for Light hope much sooner, Horde Prime never finds Etheria if it never goes out of Despondos, and thus continues ruling the rest of space forever while Shadow Weaver either eventually runs out of plans or Hordak throws in her jail for incompetence before promoting Scorpia to force captain, who would be no match for the Princess Alliance or their superior planners, and eventually the Etherian Horde just gets crushed by Adora and Catra using their horde granted expertise to win.

after that, if they ever get around to addressing the Despondos and Horde Prime thing....well they can approach doing so from a much more logical and planned manner without recklessly endangering the world or attracting Horde Prime's attention.. but at the same time Horde Prime is an entirely different can of worms from Hordak and if discovers Etheria without knowing that it can be a weapon to him like Catra informed him, he might just glass the planet from orbit and thats bad end for everyone except Horde Prime. so in that scenario it would depend on how they could take out horde Prime without letting him know where Etheria is.

in short, better more developed Catra/Adora relationship, no real relationship between Catra and Scorpia or Hordak and Entrapta develops, Shadow weaver probably stays evil forever, Hordak stays evil and get crushed by a stronger resistance, Frosta might join the Horde only to find herself regretting it, Glimmer never gets manipulated by Shadow Weaver, Angella never has to sacrifice herself, but at the same time without sending Entrapta to Beast Island, they might never find Micah. Scorpia either ends up in alliance jail or goes to the alliance like she did in Season 4, and basically Etherian Horde eventually loses, Alliance is happy but its uncertain what this means for the wider universe.

[understatement]

On the one hand, I feel like Hordak and especially Catra got off too easy. There were some really good hints in the last two episodes that their redemption was going to be a long walk home-- which I appreciated-- but I feel like Glimmer and Scorpia were entirely too willing to accept her face turn without taking their pound of flesh. Bow took longer forgiving Glimmer for exercising her authority than Glimmer took forgiving Catra for murdering her mother.

On the other hand, I also feel like this was a precedent established in the very first season with Adora herself.

It was actually a very nice touch that the people quickest to forgive former members of the Horde weren't the goodest of the good guys... it was the other former members of the Horde.


I think the show just gave everyone who was under Prime's mind control a free pass (since it's probably one of the most horrible experiences a living thing can have), and in Hordak's case...since all the Prime got wiped out of him he really wasn't evil anymore? Eh, what would I know.

[Inspector Valin]

On the one hand, I feel like Hordak and especially Catra got off too easy. There were some really good hints in the last two episodes that their redemption was going to be a long walk home-- which I appreciated-- but I feel like Glimmer and Scorpia were entirely too willing to accept her face turn without taking their pound of flesh. Bow took longer forgiving Glimmer for exercising her authority than Glimmer took forgiving Catra for murdering her mother.

On the other hand, I also feel like this was a precedent established in the very first season with Adora herself.

It was actually a very nice touch that the people quickest to forgive former members of the Horde weren't the goodest of the good guys... it was the other former members of the Horde.

It's weird to me to hold Catra directly accountable for Angella's death. Hell the entire chain of events around the portal are weird since who knows exactly what at what point is really frecking unclear. The one thing I really held against Catra comes just before that - sending Entrapta to Beast Island. It's sorta spur of the moment, she's obviously panicking, but it seemed more calculated than any of her decisions around the portal, which were more driven by denial and emotion than malice or intent.

Aaand being willing to die or worse get brainwashed and lose any sense of self or individuality or value? For Catra? Her willingly going down to save Glimmer was a pretty massive moment for selling the redemption to me. How do you make it harder than that?

Plus there's a general attitude running throughout that I appreciated. Forgiveness is not owed. No one's called out for being suspicious of the bad guys after they turned, Bow's not expected to just get over what Glimmer did. Everyone still distrusts Shadow Weaver. If you do wrong, and want to make amends, fine. It might lead down a good path. But that's on you to make, you're not owed a chance.

[Silfir]

On the one hand, I feel like Hordak and especially Catra got off too easy. There were some really good hints in the last two episodes that their redemption was going to be a long walk home-- which I appreciated-- but I feel like Glimmer and Scorpia were entirely too willing to accept her face turn without taking their pound of flesh.

Glimmer literally had nothing else to hope for than a miraculous change of heart in Catra - she even begged for it. And that miraculous change of heart is exactly what occurred before her very eyes. No ambiguity - Glimmer saw Catra literally sacrifice herself to save her, just because she was Adora's friend, and she wanted to keep Adora safe. What possible reason would she have to still hold a grudge towards Catra after that?

If we know one thing about Scorpia, it's that she couldn't hold a grudge with a grudge-holding spoon. Also she just got out of being mind-controlled by Hordak Prime, and almost killing Bow in the process. That would put anyone in a forgiving mood.

All the characters for whom it would have been in character to want to punch Catra in the face pretty much did - literally, in many cases. It's just that they're the good guys, so they didn't let it get in the way of defeating Hordak Prime. It was comprehensively dealt with.

[DeadMech]

I have many thoughts.

If only Adora had known earlier in life the magic of the squirt bottle for keeping Catra in line.

Am I the only one who burst out laughing at the Prime clones every time they began chanting something. If they were going for creepy I don't think they hit the mark.

Those space suits are stupid. Stupidly amazing. I expected Bow to still be showing abs so the little tiny transparent window was actually more practical than I expected. And watching him accidentally humiliate Catra over her helmet having ears.

Catra sure gets kicked around this season. Frosta punching her into next tuesday. Netossa with the squirt bottle. Both of those were pretty fun. Scorpia and Bow only get to hurt her under mind control or emotionally by accident since they are both too pure.

You would figure she'd hit rock bottom round the point she tried to murder suicide the world with the portal but no it's when she finally figured out she can't just keep manipulating her boss. Yeah I guess that checks out. It was either shape up and be a good minion or do something dumb out of spite. This time the dumb choice was helpful.

Even when no one is trying to fight her or is even actively trying to welcome her you can tell she feels awful and out of place. Like she doesn't believe herself that she deserves it or that it's all an act and the boot is about to drop.

I miss Catra's mane. It was a good look when she was a brainwashed cult member admittedly.

I really expected a bit more of an explosive reaction when Shadow Weaver and Catra were reunited. Not the least bit surprised that SW still manages to screw things up between Catra and Adora.

Shadow Weaver deserved worse. It's left ambiguous right to the end what she's doing here. She's down to the wire in her being a terrible person who hurts everyone around her. So I don't really forgive her for it all just because she choose to get herself killed at the last minute in front of the girls. Good riddance.

The shipping. Even Adora in her what she really wants hallucination knows Bow and Glimmer will be a thing. The two have always been close. So when they said they loved each other and he kissed her I'm like "It's about damn time."

Adora and Catra was something I didn't expect... and... in retrospect it's sorta obvious. But you never know how this sort of thing will go when it comes to the main cast of a show unfortunately. I'm happy that our cast is getting a happy ending and we don't have to have Catra redeemed through sacrificing her life or something.

[FaerieGodfather]

Plus there's a general attitude running throughout that I appreciated. Forgiveness is not owed. No one's called out for being suspicious of the bad guys after they turned, Bow's not expected to just get over what Glimmer did. Everyone still distrusts Shadow Weaver. If you do wrong, and want to make amends, fine. It might lead down a good path. But that's on you to make, you're not owed a chance.

So, so, sooooo much this. I cannot express on this forum the true depths of my visceral hatred and disgust for media that teaches children that they are morally obligated to forgive people who've hurt them-- often people who refuse to admit wrongdoing-- for the sake of "family" or "harmony" or whatever and it is just so refreshing to see a work with strong themes of redemption and acceptance... where these blessings are given only by the choice of the wronged parties, and only after substantial effort on the part of the people seeking redemption to show they're genuine.

[Serenity]

Word of God confirms that Glimmer and Bow's declarations were not platonic, though they only finalized that decision in the recording session: https://tv.avclub.com/do-i-read-this-as-platonic-or-romantic-behind-the-s-1843403035/amp

[Inspector Valin]

So, so, sooooo much this. I cannot express on this forum the true depths of my visceral hatred and disgust for media that teaches children that they are morally obligated to forgive people who've hurt them-- often people who refuse to admit wrongdoing-- for the sake of "family" or "harmony" or whatever and it is just so refreshing to see a work with strong themes of redemption and acceptance... where these blessings are given only by the choice of the wronged parties, and only after substantial effort on the part of the people seeking redemption to show they're genuine.

There is nothing I love more than a good redemption narrative.

And nothing I hate more than redemption being easy.

I really liked Shadow Weaver's final scene. We didn't have a firm idea of what she was feeling for most of the show, she's almost impossible to read. But her final act is throwing aside cold calculation and protecting both the figures she viewed as daughters. She didn't try to talk Adora past her feelings towards Catra, didn't try to use the same tricks she always had. And Adora was poisoned and lowkey delerious, Weaver could have lied to keep her going.

Does that final act make up for all the bad things she's done? That's up to Adora and Catra. But it recontextualized some of her past scenes as more firmly honest advice from someone with a ruthless perspective and I was sad to see her go. Her final attack using light magic especially got to me - for all her misdeeds, cruelties and manipulations, her final act was heroism. And so she died as Light Spinner, at least to me. And all that without forcing the idea that Adora and Catra have to look at her differently because she Did A Good Thing.

[DigoDragon]

This was a really good season. I cried a little near the end.

Specifically when Catra said "I love you" to Adora. That was beautiful.

(I for one think Catra's new haircut made her cuter. I'd probably get scratched for doing what Bo was doing. "You're so cute!")


I loved Wrong-Hordak's performance. He was comedy gold wherever he showed up. XD

[The Fury]

Word of God confirms that Glimmer and Bow's declarations were not platonic, though they only finalized that decision in the recording session: https://tv.avclub.com/do-i-read-this-as-platonic-or-romantic-behind-the-s-1843403035/amp

I generally have to accept that my understanding of romance has some serious blind spots. Personally I always read Bow and Glimmer as having a more platonic relationship. I guess I know now that my read is wrong all day long.

I'm still not sure about how I feel about Catra being paired with Adora in the end... Not because I don't feel like there weren't mutual feelings there, throughout the series it's pretty clear that there were, though there was always a lot to unpack there.

My read on Catra was that she was never able to accept love, either from Adora or Scorpia, because she hated herself. Maybe this is just how soulless husks like me think, but I think I would have preferred if Catra wasn't paired with anyone in the end but ended up learning some measure of self-compassion.

On the subject of self-love though... Adora could do with a little of that herself. That little exchange Mara had with Adora? I really liked that.

Mara: "You're worth more than what you can give to other people. You deserve love too."

What a nice thought. I think a lot of us could stand to hear things like that said to us more often. Not much else to say about it. I just thought it was really good.


So She-Ra's new design? Not bad. I gather the shape that flashes when She-Ra's crown forms is meant to look like the mask-thing that Catra used to wear? I'm pretty sure the heart in her chest piece is supposed to resemble Bow's. There's probably an element in the new She-Ra outfit that's supposed to recall something that Glimmer wears as well, I'm just not seeing it.

I don't know if anyone's mentioned this, but Keston John gave some pretty good performances. There's some differences in how Horde Prime, Hordak and Wrong Hordak talk. They're subtle, close enough that it can be believed that they're effectively copies of the same person, but they're different enough to be clear that they actually are different people with distinct personalities.

[Ramza00]

The Fury about outfits conversation you brought up.



So She-Ra's new design? Not bad. I gather the shape that flashes when She-Ra's crown forms is meant to look like the mask-thing that Catra used to wear? I'm pretty sure the heart in her chest piece is supposed to resemble Bow's. There's probably an element in the new She-Ra outfit that's supposed to recall something that Glimmer wears as well, I'm just not seeing it.


The shoes / boots with the wings are supposed to represent Glimmer...I think.

[False God]

I'm still not sure about how I feel about Catra being paired with Adora in the end... Not because I don't feel like there weren't mutual feelings there, throughout the series it's pretty clear that there were, though there was always a lot to unpack there.

My read on Catra was that she was never able to accept love, either from Adora or Scorpia, because she hated herself. Maybe this is just how soulless husks like me think, but I think I would have preferred if Catra wasn't paired with anyone in the end but ended up learning some measure of self-compassion.

On the subject of self-love though... Adora could do with a little of that herself. That little exchange Mara had with Adora? I really liked that.

Mara: "You're worth more than what you can give to other people. You deserve love too."

What a nice thought. I think a lot of us could stand to hear things like that said to us more often. Not much else to say about it. I just thought it was really good.

What makes Catra and Adora such great rivals is that they essentially have the same problem: they only measure their value in what they do for others, be that saving the day or conquering the world. And their biggest enemies are largely themselves, undermining their accomplishments (at least in their own head) by assuming that if they fail to do something, people will turn on them. Which makes sense considering they're both Horde-raised and more specifically Shadow Weaver-raised.

They can't love themselves because from their perspective nobody loves them, other people only love what they can accomplish. So it literally takes two people who can't love themselves to love each other to see the value in themselves. Because they can see the value in each other beyond their accomplishments when they can't see their own.

Ah, the love of damaged people.

-----------
This last season was fast, I mean dang there were clearly some short time jumps in there that really helped speed it along too.
Cliffnotes:
Wrong Hordak was amazing, and a great way of showing that the clones were people too.
Hordak Classic's struggle with individual was very nice without dominating the story.
Horde Prime absolutely wrecked the villain scene. I mean, for the first time in a lot of shows we get to see a bad guy who has won and we clearly see that in his stance that he wants the Heart but doesn't really feel like he needs it. It's just another trophy for his collection, which even then doesn't really mean anything to him. At least until the end.
Shadow Weaver can't stop shadow-weavering until she's about to lose her "daughters". And Adora and Catra being broken up about the only "mother" they know, even a super-screwed up one, dying was absolutely on point.
Getting to see a "evil version" of many of the heroes was reaaaaaaalllly awesome. Evil Micha, wow what a piece of work. Scorpia the "silent murderer" was actually pretty terrifying.

Repeating the story of "the First Ones were pretty terrible to the point where they converted a planet into a superweapon to kill everyone when they couldn't beat Horde Prime" continued to play out a nice theme that galactic empires are still empires.

Catra finally getting some powers was nice.

"Pairing up" at the end was nice, but also kinda rushed, really felt like there could have been some hints dropped along the way, but *shrug* that's not an uncommon problem among cartoons. Catdora is very acceptable, two broken people finding value in themselves by other people finding value in them.

[Aotrs Commander]

Watched foirst three episdoes last night.

Usyal level of standard, at this point, not surprisingly, poor Bow being The Only Sane One half the time. (Also, his spacesuit had an exposed belly. I'd raise quistions, but... Pfftahahahahahaha!)

So, midden has hit windwill, it also was framed like we won't see much of the other princesses this season.

Catra. Well, it was delighftul to see her floundering as last, finally in a position where she couldn't actually get manipulate her way up.

Horde Prime was pretty cool, and his clones are genuinely a little bit creepy enmass.

And Catra finally Did Something Not Inherently Selfish. Well, she has basically cracked and with no-where to run. Good odds she'll show up as some sort of brain-washed minion when we see her again, once feels.

Though how good that one thing she did, consdiering she previously 95% caused all this I find debatable. The more we see of Catra as a child, the I believe that Shadoweaver was only, like partly responsible, she awlays strikes me as just kind of a massive [Richard] even at the best of times. Shadoweaver definitely made her worse and gave her a comlex, yes, but it strikes me as Catra didn't need much of a push to be naturally obnoxious.

[Silfir]

Watched foirst three episdoes last night.

Usyal level of standard, at this point, not surprisingly, poor Bow being The Only Sane One half the time. (Also, his spacesuit had an exposed belly. I'd raise quistions, but... Pfftahahahahahaha!)

So, midden has hit windwill, it also was framed like we won't see much of the other princesses this season.

Catra. Well, it was delighftul to see her floundering as last, finally in a position where she couldn't actually get manipulate her way up.

Horde Prime was pretty cool, and his clones are genuinely a little bit creepy enmass.

And Catra finally Did Something Not Inherently Selfish. Well, she has basically cracked and with no-where to run. Good odds she'll show up as some sort of brain-washed minion when we see her again, once feels.

Though how good that one thing she did, consdiering she previously 95% caused all this I find debatable. The more we see of Catra as a child, the I believe that Shadoweaver was only, like partly responsible, she awlays strikes me as just kind of a massive [Richard] even at the best of times. Shadoweaver definitely made her worse and gave her a comlex, yes, but it strikes me as Catra didn't need much of a push to be naturally obnoxious.




It seems to me that Catra could have turned out to be a fairly healthy individual, all things considered, if she hadn't been raised in that environment. Her dependance on Adora is based in Shadow Weaver's treatment of the two of them - Adora is the only source of familial love, security and intimacy she has, so it's not surprising she would be driven to monopolize her.

The obnoxious tendencies you see are mainly standard symptoms of childhood - many children struggle with empathy or expanding their worldview beyond their own perspective, at first. A good parent makes a world of difference.

[Serenity]

It is probably not a coincidence that, in a show which builds to a climax of lesbian love *literally* saving the universe, that the ultimate evil evokes themes of conformity, pseudo-rationality, and religious fanaticism.

[Aotrs Commander]

So apparently we're doing a Sasuke on Catra, are we?

Disappointing, if not unexpected.



She-Ra's new look is pretty darn cool, though.

[Zalabim]

That means for a thing that does not happen.

Entrapta said whoever closed the portal would be trapped inside, maybe forever. Angella is immortal. Unless breaking her connection to the moon stone took that away, she had more excuse to survive and be rescued than King Micah did. That hasn't come up yet. The planet isn't even in Despondos anymore. She could even have found her own way out when the planet returned through a giant portal to normal space. The possibility was left open for her to come back, and it's never really closed.

If we know one thing about Scorpia, it's that she couldn't hold a grudge with a grudge-holding spoon. Also she just got out of being mind-controlled by Hordak Prime, and almost killing Bow in the process. That would put anyone in a forgiving mood.
Scorpia versus spoons isn't really a fair matchup to begin with. You've got to at least make it something like a bucket for her to have a chance.

Am I the only one who burst out laughing at the Prime clones every time they began chanting something. If they were going for creepy I don't think they hit the mark.
Those space suits are stupid. Stupidly amazing. I expected Bow to still be showing abs so the little tiny transparent window was actually more practical than I expected. And watching him accidentally humiliate Catra over her helmet having ears.
I miss Catra's mane. It was a good look when she was a brainwashed cult member admittedly.
it had a very Dalek cadence, but most were way too long to chant menacingly.
Bow is just saying what we're all thinking. Several moments of that hit me, and not all from Bow.

[LaZodiac]

So apparently we're doing a Sasuke on Catra, are we?

Disappointing, if not unexpected.



She-Ra's new look is pretty darn cool, though.


Hey now. She is actually making an effort to redeem herself. She sacrificed what little safety she had to save GLIMMER of all people. Sasuke did jack ****.

[Lord Raziere]

Hey now. She is actually making an effort to redeem herself. She sacrificed what little safety she had to save GLIMMER of all people. Sasuke did jack ****.

Yeah. this. so much this. I didn't see Sasuke taking a hit for anyone, not even Team Hawk! that jerk was basically a second Pain up until the very end with the duel. Catra was sacrificing herself without any hope of living past that moment, she could've easily died there and Adora's rescue mission would've been for nought and it would've been completely believable. honestly its pure luck that Adora was able to save her at all. like, Horde Prime could've easily killed Catra before she ever arrived, the only thing saving her was the plot.


honestly, I'd compare this redemption to Zuko much more. they both had redemption in the last season, but both made efforts and weren't immediately rewarded for it. Catra pretty gets mind controlled for her troubles and needs to be saved by Adora, then she needs to be a taught a lesson on working with others afterwards so that they don't die to being tracked, then pretty much has to risk going back to a world where she could get mind controlled again, see Scorpia, one of her friends be mind controlled as well, get attacked by her weakness in the form of the water princess, then has to watch the love of her life get manipulated by the mother she hates into sacrificing herself again, with only her tearful pleadings saving Adora from nearly dying.

also it was either that or live the rest of her life surrounded by creepy green hordaks who can't be bullied or bargained with who would eventually probably mind control her anyways. given that Horde Prime's stated goal is the destruction of reality that wouldn't be long. I'd think at that point even if her moral compass is broken to scrap, her logic compass would be pointing to "yeah this won't work out well for us." and really? she didn't think Adora would come back to save her, or would be able to. Catra was probably thinking she was going to die and that Adora hated her enough to not rescue her and thus do something completely pointless. thankfully she was wrong. but y'know, betraying a no-nonsense enemy like Horde Prime? you tend to assume your not going to live past the next few moments of doing that.

[Odessa333]

I just want to point out that the article mentions them talking about a 'slice of life' season. Do you think we could get a fan petition going for this, for some She-Ra shorts? Even if not a full season of drama, just a chance to see this amazing cast again? I have half a dozen ideas in my head alone, so I'm sure this staff can think of even more (and let's be honest, better ones too lol).

[Ramza00]

I just want to point out that the article mentions them talking about a 'slice of life' season. Do you think we could get a fan petition going for this, for some She-Ra shorts? Even if not a full season of drama, just a chance to see this amazing cast again? I have half a dozen ideas in my head alone, so I'm sure this staff can think of even more (and let's be honest, better ones too lol).

I crave content where She-Ra’s Bow and Seahawk meet Avatar the Last Airbender’s Sokka and Toph. Also an episode with Catra and Netossa going shopping while Adora is shopping with Spinerella.

[LaZodiac]

I crave content where She-Ra’s Bow and Seahawk meet Avatar the Last Airbender’s Sokka and Toph. Also an episode with Catra and Netossa going shopping while Adora is shopping with Spinerella.

Girls no that is the most wrong pairing if you need advice to get a gift for your loved one. Spinny's going suggest cute, warm colours and Netossa will suggest biker jackets and of course that seems perfect but it'd more be a gift for themselves and not their partners aaah.

I love this.

[Ramza00]

Girls no that is the most wrong pairing if you need advice to get a gift for your loved one. Spinny's going suggest cute, warm colours and Netossa will suggest biker jackets and of course that seems perfect but it'd more be a gift for themselves and not their partners aaah.

I love this.

Exactly!!!

[Resileaf]

I just want to point out that the article mentions them talking about a 'slice of life' season. Do you think we could get a fan petition going for this, for some She-Ra shorts? Even if not a full season of drama, just a chance to see this amazing cast again? I have half a dozen ideas in my head alone, so I'm sure this staff can think of even more (and let's be honest, better ones too lol).

Sadly, Mattel will probably never allow Noelle to have control of She-Ra again. It's no secret that they've hated how she did it because it's nearly impossible to make cheap toys out of.

[hungrycrow]

I just want to point out that the article mentions them talking about a 'slice of life' season. Do you think we could get a fan petition going for this, for some She-Ra shorts? Even if not a full season of drama, just a chance to see this amazing cast again? I have half a dozen ideas in my head alone, so I'm sure this staff can think of even more (and let's be honest, better ones too lol).

I don't know if it could carry a whole season, but i did think the show needed an epilogue. Like, what happens to Hordak and all the clones?

[LaZodiac]

Sadly, Mattel will probably never allow Noelle to have control of She-Ra again. It's no secret that they've hated how she did it because it's nearly impossible to make cheap toys out of.

I'd need to see proof of that because it'd be piss easy to make toys of these character designs they're all really good, and they approved a lotta stuff these companies tend not to so they're not antagonistic at the very least.


I don't know if it could carry a whole season, but i did think the show needed an epilogue. Like, what happens to Hordak and all the clones?

Well, I imagine Hordak and Entrapta are going to have a rocky rekindling of their relationship, but once everything is settled they'll probably return to her kingdom of exactly one kitchen staff and, hey, there's a ton of free space here. The clones live here now, probably organized by Wrong who is the one with the most experience with freedom at this point as a sort of minister.

[Resileaf]

I'd need to see proof of that because it'd be piss easy to make toys of these character designs they're all really good, and they approved a lotta stuff these companies tend not to so they're not antagonistic at the very least.


I wish I could find the articles about Mattel's opinion, but it comes from pretty long ago, I don't know if I could find them again. >_< Can't ask you to trust my word on it either, wouldn't be fair.

[DeadMech]

So a few more random thoughts.

So Adora is shown a holographic projection of what she wants. And it's to be together with her friends celebrating Scopia's first hosting of the princess ball. And I gotta say...

Dem all is a handsome bunch. Seems a generally more mature look and set of outfits compared to the previous princess ball where most of them looked like it was a elementary school dance

Glimmer's straightened her hair or something. Looks sharper and less floofy. And Bow looks good with a little soul patch. He's also grown it out a bit and has a poofy bun now. The thing people do now with hair where they shave some sections and grow others long is never something I'll understand but whatever.

Oh! THEY HAVE MATCHING CAPES!!! matching capes...They are adorable.

Adora's looking very elegant in a white and gold accented dress. I don't know if the cape/train thing is a great idea but maybe she's just not comfortable showing as much back as the dress would without it. She does look the least comfortable of the bunch in her oufit until late in the scene but that might just be the getting stuck in a hologram thing.

Catra grew her hair out again and it's still a bit wild because Catra. And she has it up in a ponytail. Hmm who do we know who wears her hair in a ponytail. And she's got some nice formal slacks. And a red jacket with a gold feather button on it. Hmmm Have we ever seen someone wear a red jacket with a gold feather accessory? She's keeping it casual for now slinging a white formal jacket with gold accenting over her shoulder.

That's gonna match Adora's dress when she needs to borrow it later when the temperature outside dips. :smallwink:

I too am a bit surprised that no effort was made to rescue Glimmer's totally not dead mom. I was completely sure at some point she'd get out of that trapped in the portal thing but nope

Going forward I wouldn't say no to another season whatever that might entail. Even if it reveals the actual OTP. Everybody X Therapy. Cause like Steven universe everybody is probably a bit screwed up and has something to work out in the post war era.

[LaZodiac]

I'm gonna say something controversial; I actually like that Queen Angela's noble sacrifice to save the world sticks and she's actually straight up dead. It's sad, yeah, it's SUPER sad... but it does feel very meaningful that Angela sacrificed herself and there's no walking that back, especially because if it wasn't her... it would have been Adora. Another example of Adora trying to sacrifice her autonomy for others, and someone who is responsible for her care going "no. You deserve more than this."

It fits the themes real well, is what I'm saying. Adults taking responsibility, and making it so that younger folk don't suffer... though it does hurt Glimmer a fair bit, I think a large part of that season was Glimmer becoming ready to be Queen, she just never realized it herself.

[False God]

I'm gonna say something controversial; I actually like that Queen Angela's noble sacrifice to save the world sticks and she's actually straight up dead. It's sad, yeah, it's SUPER sad... but it does feel very meaningful that Angela sacrificed herself and there's no walking that back, especially because if it wasn't her... it would have been Adora. Another example of Adora trying to sacrifice her autonomy for others, and someone who is responsible for her care going "no. You deserve more than this."

It fits the themes real well, is what I'm saying. Adults taking responsibility, and making it so that younger folk don't suffer... though it does hurt Glimmer a fair bit, I think a large part of that season was Glimmer becoming ready to be Queen, she just never realized it herself.

As a general rule, I agree that characters who die to stay dead, especially when the death was a meaningful one.

[The Fury]

I wish I could find the articles about Mattel's opinion, but it comes from pretty long ago, I don't know if I could find them again. >_< Can't ask you to trust my word on it either, wouldn't be fair.

I don't doubt that a "Mattel hates the new She-Ra" article exists. Though I've seen a lot of articles about who hates the show circulating around the internet and some of the veracity of them seems questionable. I mean, a pretty popular subject was that Netflix was killing the show prematurely because... not enough views or something? In actuality, Netflix and Dreamworks agreed to a set number of episodes to tell a complete self-contained story. Then things went exactly as planned...


I'm gonna say something controversial; I actually like that Queen Angela's noble sacrifice to save the world sticks and she's actually straight up dead. It's sad, yeah, it's SUPER sad... but it does feel very meaningful that Angela sacrificed herself and there's no walking that back, especially because if it wasn't her... it would have been Adora. Another example of Adora trying to sacrifice her autonomy for others, and someone who is responsible for her care going "no. You deserve more than this."

It fits the themes real well, is what I'm saying. Adults taking responsibility, and making it so that younger folk don't suffer... though it does hurt Glimmer a fair bit, I think a large part of that season was Glimmer becoming ready to be Queen, she just never realized it herself.

Know what? I agree with you. As a general rule, I don't like it when a character dies, is mourned, their loved ones grieve and move on... Then the "dead" character turned out to be fine. I get that some people are more OK with it than me, and that's fine, I can really only guess at the appeal...

[Psyren]

I was happy with the finale.

"We're gonna win in the end," indeed :smallbiggrin:

The sheer density of queerness warmed my heart. They still danced around Kygel a bit too much for my liking but they at least confirmed that it existed. And I was fully expecting either one of Bow's parents or Net/Spin to end up fridged to show how bad the bad guy was, but thankfully they didn't do that.

Scorfuma was probably my favorite ship. Adora and Catra... I have my doubts about that one, it really is unhealthy and Catra hasn't really solved any of her BPD issues of putting Adora on a pedestal, but I do at least feel the redemption was earned.

RIP Shadoweaver, you were always my favorite :smallfrown:

[DeadMech]

I'm gonna say something controversial; I actually like that Queen Angela's noble sacrifice to save the world sticks

I don't disagree with this. I'm just surprised. Being a kids show there are certain expectations. Especially when they won't even say the word dead.

[Aotrs Commander]

That escalated quickly...

Socpira, it seem,s shoudl she survive this, as a bright futrue as a lounge singer.

I honestly expected that to happen as soon as she said "I like to singf,"I was like "I see where this is going."



Wow, though, much harder on the face-heel turn on Catra and Starlight Glimmer would be suffering whiplash. Just sweeping it under the rug like it's nothing, aren't we? Four seasons as arguably the primairy villain and boom, she's just forgiven. I wasn't keen when MLP did it (hell, I explictly ONLY gave them as pass because it so obivous that Staright Glimmer was Still Clearly Evil - I was never convinced it wa a good idea with Discord), and I'm no better pleased here.

I'm sorry, I'm just getting REAL tied of seeing that all the time. (I can at last, take solace in MLP's finale season NOT doing that with four of the villains, thank you.) It is REALLY too much to ask to see the bad guys actually die screaming and helpless once in a while? I'd like a few more Envies out of FMA:B and a few less Sasukes, please and thak you.

Horde Prime better get PROPER splortched, is what I'm saying, as there wont BE any other villains by the end of the show at this rate...

[Zalabim]

The Angella thing feels more like a dropped plot thread than an intentional stance. She's suffering a fate worse than death, being immortal and trapped between dimensions.

That escalated quickly...

Socpira, it seem,s shoudl she survive this, as a bright futrue as a lounge singer.

I honestly expected that to happen as soon as she said "I like to singf,"I was like "I see where this is going."



Wow, though, much harder on the face-heel turn on Catra and Starlight Glimmer would be suffering whiplash. Just sweeping it under the rug like it's nothing, aren't we? Four seasons as arguably the primairy villain and boom, she's just forgiven. I wasn't keen when MLP did it (hell, I explictly ONLY gave them as pass because it so obivous that Staright Glimmer was Still Clearly Evil - I was never convinced it wa a good idea with Discord), and I'm no better pleased here.

I'm sorry, I'm just getting REAL tied of seeing that all the time. (I can at last, take solace in MLP's finale season NOT doing that with four of the villains, thank you.) It is REALLY too much to ask to see the bad guys actually die screaming and helpless once in a while? I'd like a few more Envies out of FMA:B and a few less Sasukes, please and thak you.

Horde Prime better get PROPER splortched, is what I'm saying, as there wont BE any other villains by the end of the show at this rate...
I'm sorry. Catra was a great antagonist, but she never really ascended to full-on villain. Even after physically cowing Hordak, she still acts as his force captain, takes directions from him, is trying to complete his goal, and has to persuade him to go along with her plans. Then Catra really starts down the zero villain credibility path when Scorpia leaves. She's too chaotic and needy to push past antagonistic to villainous. I'm not sure she deserves the ending the show gives her, but she only gets a shot at redemption because that's what Adora wants from her. Catra didn't want to be rescued. Glimmer has time to come to terms with the portal thing (and feels her own part with Light Hope), Entrapta didn't know Beast Island was supposed to be bad, Adora is just happy to have Catra on her side, Bow is clearly swayed by her looks, Perfuma is all love and friendship, Frosta punches her in the face, Netossa knows how handle her if she steps out of line, and the rest are still mind controlled. There's not really more objections to cover at this point.

[Aotrs Commander]

The Angella thing feels more like a dropped plot thread than an intentional stance. She's suffering a fate worse than death, being immortal and trapped between dimensions.

I'm sorry. Catra was a great antagonist, but she never really ascended to full-on villain. Even after physically cowing Hordak, she still acts as his force captain, takes directions from him, is trying to complete his goal, and has to persuade him to go along with her plans. Then Catra really starts down the zero villain credibility path when Scorpia leaves. She's too chaotic and needy to push past antagonistic to villainous. I'm not sure she deserves the ending the show gives her, but she only gets a shot at redemption because that's what Adora wants from her. Catra didn't want to be rescued. Glimmer has time to come to terms with the portal thing (and feels her own part with Light Hope), Entrapta didn't know Beast Island was supposed to be bad, Adora is just happy to have Catra on her side, Bow is clearly swayed by her looks, Perfuma is all love and friendship, Frosta punches her in the face, Netossa knows how handle her if she steps out of line, and the rest are still mind controlled. There's not really more objections to cover at this point.

100% disagree. I'm afraid. I really don't see what differentiates Catra from, say Sasuke Uchiha, given that Catra nearly destroyed the world in season three and was the direct cause the Angella thing(thanks for not spoilering whether or not she comes back, by the way, everyone) which you youself JUST said was a fate worse than death. And Catra did that out of little more than spite. But Glimmer is now fine with her. Sure, okay.

So no, I don't agree she's earned her redemption - at all - especially as it ONLY came after she realised she couldn't smooze her way out the corner this time.



I feel that she only gets the treatment she does because, well, not to put too finer point on it, people want to ship her with Adora (or Scorpia) and/or think she is "cute." And I feel that if she wasn't a "cute cat girl" (sic) but no other changes were made, not NEARLY so many people would be okay with her redemption; like, if she was, like Teenage-ugly-male-goblin-ra or something.

This? Is a classic case of the by-now VERY tired old "I like this thing, so it therefore must not be Evil and therefore must be made to be not Evil so I don't have to feel guily about liking it" syndrome.

I'll grant you, it is one I saw coming a mile off; but for the last couple of seasons, I had hopes that there was a SLIM chance it might be otherwise. Disappointed.



But, hey, I'm getting increasingly used to that these days from everything...

[LaZodiac]

Sorry about not spoilering Angella's fate, Aotrs.

I'm going to have to disagree on your read on Catra though. Yes she did a lot of terrible things, and maybe what she did on the Horde Prime ship to save Glimmer isn't "enough" to be redeemed... but the people who she hurt think it is enough, and she did this fully expecting to be killed outright, or left to die. She didn't do it to GET redeemed, she did it and Glimmer decided "... I'm going to forgive her".

Given her interactions with Bow in the early part of this season, and how even he had issues forgiving her for what SHE did, I can see Glimmer looking at that and going "I don't want to be like that" as well. Also during their interactions on the ship Glimmer probably realized that Catra is just like Adora was when she first left the Horde; a good person hidden beneath a lot of garbage thrown on top of them.

Ultimately it is your opinion and you can have it if you want, I just disagree. And it's not because of shipping, I was 100% expecting Catra to get killed at some point. I would have been okay with it, if sad, because it would be another example of an evil person genuinely trying to make amends and being okay if they aren't forgiven for it dying needlessly, which is something I'M sick of.

[FaerieGodfather]

Personally, I am really grateful for Mermista's comment at the end. She just made it clear... no, they have not earned their redemdption, not by a long shot. All they've earned is their chance to earn it.

[False God]

Sorry about not spoilering Angella's fate, Aotrs.

I'm going to have to disagree on your read on Catra though. Yes she did a lot of terrible things, and maybe what she did on the Horde Prime ship to save Glimmer isn't "enough" to be redeemed... but the people who she hurt think it is enough, and she did this fully expecting to be killed outright, or left to die. She didn't do it to GET redeemed, she did it and Glimmer decided "... I'm going to forgive her".

Given her interactions with Bow in the early part of this season, and how even he had issues forgiving her for what SHE did, I can see Glimmer looking at that and going "I don't want to be like that" as well. Also during their interactions on the ship Glimmer probably realized that Catra is just like Adora was when she first left the Horde; a good person hidden beneath a lot of garbage thrown on top of them.

Ultimately it is your opinion and you can have it if you want, I just disagree. And it's not because of shipping, I was 100% expecting Catra to get killed at some point. I would have been okay with it, if sad, because it would be another example of an evil person genuinely trying to make amends and being okay if they aren't forgiven for it dying needlessly, which is something I'M sick of.

Catras "redemption" tracks with a lot of "villain" redemption stories throughout Western media, it's less that they make up for their past misdeeds, which are often far too great and too numerous to ever really be made up for, but it's more that they showed that there's "still good in them" despite what they've done and when given an opportunity to really do some good, not just join the good team or say sorry, they choose to do it.

I think there is something of an added element that in a lot of people's minds you can't ever actually be a hero unless you're a total goodie-goodie. While we have many damaged or messed up "protagonists" across media, I'd argue few of them are regarded as "heroic" since more and more of them are written as imperfect people trying to do their best. Which makes them better characters, but also less "perfect heroes" (a writing issue I often take up against DC), they're still the good guys, they're just not knights in shining armor. Western society tends to put rather high bar on redemption. This is not aided by the fact that much of modern Western cartoons are inspired by anime, which comes from a culture that puts an even higher bar on redemption. So we end up with a lot of stories where the "villain" sacrifices themselves because we tend to think that living with the burden of guilt is a worse fate than dying doing something noble.

So we basically need other people to say "no, it's better to live" to change that narrative, and we got it on both sides, which IMO makes for pretty good storytelling. Adora had to care enough about Catra to want to her live over taking the easier or safer route, and Catra had to care enough about Adora to want her to live over making a fairly easy heroic sacrifice.

[Zalabim]

100% disagree. I'm afraid. I really don't see what differentiates Catra from, say Sasuke Uchiha, given that Catra nearly destroyed the world in season three and was the direct cause the Angella thing(thanks for not spoilering whether or not she comes back, by the way, everyone) which you youself JUST said was a fate worse than death. And Catra did that out of little more than spite. But Glimmer is now fine with her. Sure, okay.

So no, I don't agree she's earned her redemption - at all - especially as it ONLY came after she realised she couldn't smooze her way out the corner this time.
Okay, what about Glimmer's redemption? She nearly destroyed the world, exposed Etheria to Horde Prime, and is the direct cause of Adora destroying the sword, losing She-ra forever (she thought.) Just because Glimmer's pride kept her from trusting her friends.

[Silfir]

What makes Catra's redemption plausible to me is knowing that many troubled people in real life will not seek help or initiate change until they hit rock bottom. That's Catra in season five, hitting rock bottom. Hordak's demise at the hands of his much more competent, much more ruthless master Hordak Prime ended the Horde as she knew it; the Horde she called her home. All of a sudden, the warmest place in her universe became the other side of the prison bars from a person that she once considered her mortal enemy.

She did get lucky that there was still something to salvage. Moreso even that she had an opportunity to do something not for Adora - which could be interpreted as selfishness, since she's in love with her - but for a person she held no affection for whatsoever until they started talking to each other in that prison.

If you will allow me to get a little cheesy: Evil is a choice you continue to make every day. There's no such thing as a person who is beyond redemption. The option to cease doing Evil and turn around and atone for your misdeeds is open to anyone, no matter how wretched they may be. "I have done so much evil, it is too late for me" is nothing but an excuse. As long as you have the power to affect other people, you can still make a choice about how you use that power. You can still walk a different path. Even if the destination of that path (Atonement) cannot be reached in your lifetime, just to turn around and start walking counts for something.

And that's where Catra was. Walking down a long, long path of shortsighted, selfish, cruel decisions. Having made a conscious choice to be a villain, time and time again. You're saying that she has to continue down that path until the bitter end? The answer is: No, she doesn't. She can turn around and try the other thing. Do one good thing in her life and see where that gets her. She committed an unambiguously Good act. And that counts for something.

Are people too ready and willing to accept her? Maybe, but she clearly has Hordak Prime to thank for that. In the face of the threat he poses, nobody can afford to be picky about their allies anymore. They've already been more or less forced to accept Shadow Weaver - occasionally a lampshade is hung that she is technically still a prisoner. I don't think Catra is worse than Shadow Weaver.

[Aotrs Commander]

Okay, what about Glimmer's redemption? She nearly destroyed the world, exposed Etheria to Horde Prime, and is the direct cause of Adora destroying the sword, losing She-ra forever (she thought.) Just because Glimmer's pride kept her from trusting her friends.

First of all, that's a pretty fracking big frack-up to make, and the only reason she's getting any consideration from me was that she immediately regretted it and she started out with good intentions.

Catra? Neither of those things. she knew pefectly well what she was doing, to the point of actively trying to stop Adora from fixing things. Catra, to put it illustratively, was not sorry, just sorry she was caught.

(See also Shadoweaver, of whom I cannot say anything further of until I watch the last three episodes.)



But we can argue this all day. And the end of said day, I'm just tired and bored to death of redemption stories and equally tied and bored to death of that other favourite trope of "hero gets horribly tortured and wins in the end and bad guy gets away with nothing more than death if he's particulalry unlcuky" and I want to see a bit more visceral stuff. I want to see the bad guy beaten and broken (before idealyl, but not not mandatorily Horribly Karking It), for a change. (Yes, I DID very much enoy Catra's breakdown last season, ta.) And no, not in the worse situation of It Being Done By Antiheros in a World That Is Completely Grey. Stuff THAT nonsense too, thank you very much.)

Again - I point an accuastory finger at Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood and Envy's fate, which was FRACKING BRILLIANT and even, for those of you less vindictive, had it framed as Being A Bad Thing. It can be fracking done.

Yes, I know I'm never going to get that in ostensibly an all-ages show, but I'll settle for bronze if I can't have gold, ta very much.



This comes also after finished Young Justice season three, incidently, and the tiresome "oh no, someone killed a dude," reaction at the end, especially coming after the show itself had cheerfully been killing teenagers off at a staggeringly hilarious rate; which also let me down, as that came across as forced for the opposite reasons.

In which Geoforce killed the dude who had kidnapped his sister (and thense turning her into a child assaasin - and she was one of the lucky ones, see aforementined literal piles of mass-murdered teenagers), murdered his parents, taken over his country and was literally saying to the dude's face "I'm just going to keep trying until I win as long as I'm alive," which PRETTY MUCH indicates that, uh, yeah, filling his lungs with magma was the FRELLING right course of action and that it was only a pity there wasn't a necromancer around to bind his soul into a pbble and chuck it into a random point in the void between galaxies to drift forever in midnless screaming agony for the rest of eternity!

THAT was not a Bad Thing That He Needs Remdeption For, guys. For Lichemaster's sake!

Jack O'Neill would have put a bullet in his head and I defy you to tell me that Jack O'Neill is not a fraggin' hero. (Wolverine would have done it to, and so, when it comes down to it, would Optimus Prime. Or Aragorn. Or Belgarath. Or Han Solo. Or James Bond. Hell, Johnny English would have at the final crunch, which is one of the crowning glories of that first film, that showed despite his incompetance, he DID that bit of steel in him.

So VERY tired of "killing the bad guys should never happen."

Though admittedly, that of nonsense aside, it was SO satisfying to see Batman's chagrin at the end there when FINALLY something admitted - and made HIM admit - Batman Had Totally Fracked It All Up. 'Bout frelling time, I tell you.

Yes, I AM aware I have completely lost track of the topic and gone off on Another Bleakbane Rant, but that's what happens.

[Ramza00]

Links to twitter where someone made a video clip of the times Hey Adora happens in season 5.

https://twitter.com/spopsite/status/1264268030030249990

Noelle Stevenson (also by twitter), who is the creator of She-Ra says #2 is her favorite Hey Adora moment in She-Ra Season 5.

[Aotrs Commander]

Well. It's over and done.

The small things.

The tenth episode, in which Netrappa whomped Catra in three seconds with a squirt bottle very nearly made up for my misgivings about it all there and then. Also, her being lightning-punted, Team Rocket style out of sight by Controlled-Scorpia.

Glimmer apparently subscribes to the Nanoha school of "befriending." "I love you Dad" *KA-NEEEEM* *snerk*



Hordak himself did feel under-used this season, despite his critical role. Granted, Hordak shooting Horde Prime Inna Back still made me laugh hard, despite knowing full well it was coming.



But as to the overall...?

I... Am not sure what to feel. It... Wasn't bad? At all? Everything was there - the call-backs, action was good, everyone got a chance to be awesome, it was everything what I expected it would be... Heck, we even had a "and so the adventure continues..." ending. But

I think the emotional core (Adora/Catra) just in the end, just... passed me by. Not that it wasn't well executed, just... It didn't resonate, like it should.

I saw most of the beats coming and it... Maybe after nine years of seeing pony basically do the same sort of thing... Maybe after all the stuff over the years where it all comes down to the dues et machina to wipe it all away...?

I dunno. Whether it's just my ever-darkening mood the state of the world (apparently now all it takes to lock me into a genuine can barely thing-for-anger rage-state for an hour is inept game-launcher-patching), is just resistant to being penetrated, but... Maybe I'm just tired of "we will win because our feelings [friendship/love] are stronger than your [will/feelings/whatever]" all the time. Where the victories are all about emotional resonance and determination and not... Tactics and skill or cleverness. Hoiw it's always a pendulum and never a steady push-back.

Maybe I've just gotten tired of everything ending, period.

I don't know.

All I know is I just watched the end of another thing I really quite liked and...

Something undefinable just felt like it was missing, and I don't know what or why.



Though I can at least take solace in the fact that Horde Prime got his soul totally blown up (90% expected though that was), that was hilarious. At least SOMEBDOY got straight-up proper killed like they should have.

[Lord Raziere]

But as to the overall...?

I... Am not sure what to feel. It... Wasn't bad? At all? Everything was there - the call-backs, action was good, everyone got a chance to be awesome, it was everything what I expected it would be... Heck, we even had a "and so the adventure continues..." ending. But

I think the emotional core (Adora/Catra) just in the end, just... passed me by. Not that it wasn't well executed, just... It didn't resonate, like it should.

I saw most of the beats coming and it... Maybe after nine years of seeing pony basically do the same sort of thing... Maybe after all the stuff over the years where it all comes down to the dues et machina to wipe it all away...?

I dunno. Whether it's just my ever-darkening mood the state of the world (apparently now all it takes to lock me into a genuine can barely thing-for-anger rage-state for an hour is inept game-launcher-patching), is just resistant to being penetrated, but... Maybe I'm just tired of "we will win because our feelings [friendship/love] are stronger than your [will/feelings/whatever]" all the time. Where the victories are all about emotional resonance and determination and not... Tactics and skill or cleverness. Hoiw it's always a pendulum and never a steady push-back.

Maybe I've just gotten tired of everything ending, period.

I don't know.

All I know is I just watched the end of another thing I really quite liked and...

Something undefinable just felt like it was missing, and I don't know what or why.



Sounds like you'd enjoy rational fiction. thats all I can honestly say to that, since I don't think these kinds of climaxes are gonna get old any time soon. there are people who write stories for a more rational perspective, but don't expect them to be anything big or money-making.

[Ramza00]

My wicked sense of humor that looks for poetics.


Poetic Irony.

Catra would have gotten the girl, Adora in the pilot episode if Catra was not so focused on the need to be strong. Yet Catra needed to be strong in order to fight the emotional childhood abuse of Shadow-weaver. Thus Catra temperament was crafted to be the loyal skeptic, and to have a counterphobic reaction to anxiety. If something scarred Catra she needed to push it away, to attack it, to destroy it, to not show external weakness and to quench internal vulnerability.

Thus Catra could not allow herself to be the damsel in distress, a cultural trope that in our culture outside of She-Ra we associate with Princesses. Ironically if Catra for 1 day allowed her to be the damsel then she would have gotten Adora to date her 4 and change seasons earlier.

Catra uses the word “Sparkles” to describe Glimmer as an insult not just because Glimmer has this trait but also to create distance and disavow that part of herself inside of Catra. Yet there are several moments in the series where Catra’s eyes get big, she is fascinated, and her eyes are full of sparkles eye 👀 ✨. Yet a Catra has learned to distrust these moments, learn to disavow this enchantment, for this was when Shadow-Weaver manipulated and hurt Catra during this moments of vulnerability. Thus Catra remained skeptical and loyal, distrusting her hearts desire.

[BRC]

What makes Catra's redemption plausible to me is knowing that many troubled people in real life will not seek help or initiate change until they hit rock bottom. That's Catra in season five, hitting rock bottom. Hordak's demise at the hands of his much more competent, much more ruthless master Hordak Prime ended the Horde as she knew it; the Horde she called her home. All of a sudden, the warmest place in her universe became the other side of the prison bars from a person that she once considered her mortal enemy.

She did get lucky that there was still something to salvage. Moreso even that she had an opportunity to do something not for Adora - which could be interpreted as selfishness, since she's in love with her - but for a person she held no affection for whatsoever until they started talking to each other in that prison.

If you will allow me to get a little cheesy: Evil is a choice you continue to make every day. There's no such thing as a person who is beyond redemption. The option to cease doing Evil and turn around and atone for your misdeeds is open to anyone, no matter how wretched they may be. "I have done so much evil, it is too late for me" is nothing but an excuse. As long as you have the power to affect other people, you can still make a choice about how you use that power. You can still walk a different path. Even if the destination of that path (Atonement) cannot be reached in your lifetime, just to turn around and start walking counts for something.

And that's where Catra was. Walking down a long, long path of shortsighted, selfish, cruel decisions. Having made a conscious choice to be a villain, time and time again. You're saying that she has to continue down that path until the bitter end? The answer is: No, she doesn't. She can turn around and try the other thing. Do one good thing in her life and see where that gets her. She committed an unambiguously Good act. And that counts for something.

Are people too ready and willing to accept her? Maybe, but she clearly has Hordak Prime to thank for that. In the face of the threat he poses, nobody can afford to be picky about their allies anymore. They've already been more or less forced to accept Shadow Weaver - occasionally a lampshade is hung that she is technically still a prisoner. I don't think Catra is worse than Shadow Weaver.



The big difference is in terms of narrative framing.

Shadow Weaver has, I think, spent more screentime working for the rebellion than the horde, but she's continually framed as antagonistic, dangerous, and manipulative, basically until the very end. She's there, but the show never treats her presence in Bright Moon as something the audience should want or celebrate.

Catra, partially because she's basically been a secondary protagonist this entire time, isn't quite framed the same way, which is what rankles people.
In the end it comes down to "Does this character deserve the reward of happiness", and the show comes down pretty firmly on the side that, yes Catra DOES deserve to be happy. She needs to take her licks first, sure, but it's a good thing that she is welcomed into the Best Friend Squad, her and Adora's mutual confession/reciprocation is the dramatic peak of the story. Catra's 'victory' as it were, isn't just something the show says we should celebrate, it's framed as being literally responsible for the hero's eventual triumph.
(Mind you, their reconciliation and mutual confession is framed just as much as a goal of Adora's as of Catra's, but we're a little bit more in Catra's head in the moments running up to it. Adora is doing all sorts of Chosen One Save The World stuff, Catra is primarily engaged with their drama).

If you view Catra as primarily a tragic figure, or you're like me and have no trouble getting swept up in the story being told, then that's great. The 'Wish"/future vision of Catra accepted, happy, and and firmly part of the Princess Social Circle is a good thing. I know it made me smile when I saw it.

But, if you're the type who cares about seeing Justice Done, it can't really be denied that Catra, for all that she suffers, gets off pretty light for the countless horrible acts she commits.
To make the inevitable Zuko comparison, IIRC, Zuko's "Crimes", as in the things he personally did, were largely targeted at Aang and the other heroes directly, so it's pretty easy for his slate to be cleaned by receiving personal forgiveness from them.

Catra on the other hand wasn't just kicking Adora around, she enthusiastically participated in, and directly led, the Horde's war efforts. Even in a bloodless show, it's implied that the Horde's conquest in the background is causing massive destruction and havok across the land, and Catra is never really forced to confront those crimes. They kind of sidestep the question by having the Rebellion pushed to the brink of desperation before Catra and the others return from space.

The Greater Evil of Horde Prime doesn't really erase what Catra and Hordak did, but the series ends on a positive note for both of them, and Catra's implied future happiness is celebrated. If you consider "The Bad People Pay For Their Crimes" a key component of a satisfying ending (or at least a satisfying non-tragic ending), I could see that being a major sticking point.

[Man on Fire]

I liked that in the end Shadow Weaver wasn't really redeemed - nobody forgave her for her actions, nobody learned to trust her after what she did, she has shown no remorse and sought no atonement - and it is all in contrast to Catra who genuinely is looking for those things. It is a good message to show people don't owe you forgiveness and you need to work for it not just "be a good guy" now. Moreover, I like how her death adds a bit of ambiguity to the character. It doesn't redeem her but she does now make it unclear which of her actions were manipulations and which were genuine attempts to help, just coming from an absolutely horrible, toxic person. It is also an important distinction that a lot of people don't get and we don't see enough media pointing out that abusers and toxic people aren't intentionally abusive and toxic 24/7, but even if they act with good intentions they can still cause harm and spread toxicity and their "good" moments don't absolve their behavior.

[FaerieGodfather]

People think it is a horror that parents like Thanos and Shadow Weaver don't love their children.

The real horror has always been that they do.

[Ramza00]

People think it is a horror that parents like Thanos and Shadow Weaver don't love their children.

The real horror has always been that they do.

🎶 Too long I've been afraid of
Losing love, I guess I've lost
Well if that's love
It comes at much too high a cost!!!

I sooner buy [The Honor of Grayskull] 🎶

[Psyren]

Moviebob did a thing.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmV-wSPTkUk

He summed up in a big way why I enjoyed the whole show, and what we can hope for going forward. Also, the parallel with Harley Quinn's big moment was spot-on too.

Part of me wonders if we're about to enter a renaissance of animation now that everyone is stuck inside - something that might finally level the age ghetto (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AnimationAgeGhetto) for good.