Monk tripper: factotum 3, or go all the way to 8?

[Elves]

Hi, looking for input on the following build. It's the usual monk tripper, using decisive strike to double AoO damage. The question is whether it's worthwhile for this build to take up the Cunning Surge gimmick, or whether those levels and feats are better spent elsewhere.

The current build:

Race: half-minotaur (with buyoff) human
Class: factotum 1 / monk 2 / fighter 2 / cloistered cleric 1 > factotum +2 > ? > feat rogue 2 > ?

ACFs: Passive Way, decisive strike

Feats:
Racial: Font of Inspiration [chaos shuffled from racial track feat] or another feat if no cunning surge
Human: Aberrant Blood (flexible limbs)
Flaw: Inhuman Reach
Flaw: Kung Fu Genius
1st:
Monk 1: Improved Unarmed Strike
Monk 1: Combat Expertise
Monk 2: Improved Trip
Fighter 1: Combat Reflexes
3rd: Stand Still
Fighter 2: EWP (meteor hammer)
Time Domain: Improved Initiative
Travel Domain Tradeout: Travel Devotion
Knowledge Domain Tradeout: Knowledge Devotion
6th: Knock-Down
9th: Dirty Fighting
Automatic: Broken Fist Mastery I
12th:
Feat Rogue 1: Power Attack
Feat Rogue 2: Robilar's Gambit
15th:
18th:


If going factotum 8, all but one of the empty feats would be FOI, getting him to 15 Inspiration or 5 surges per encounter. It's a good gimmick when combined with Decisive Strike, but 5 levels and 4 feats is a lot. What would you do?

Also, whether or not it goes to factotum 8, what would you do with the empty levels?

16 BAB isn't a concern because he wants to use Decisive Strike instead of full attacking.

[Nifft]

I don't understand the justification for Decisive Strike on a Trip-oriented area controller.

It seems you'd do better with Travel Devotion (which you have) + full attack, backed up by higher BAB + a source of Sneak Attack.

[animewatcha]

Decisive strike is full-round action so you need a way for enemy to make as many attacks as possible or you to do as many unarmed attacks as possible. Snap kick, roundabout kick, etc. for tripping. Mob gets up, they provoke AoO. Get another snap kick. If you throw disarming in there. They pick up their weapon, provoke AoO. Main idea is get that first attack in there from decisive and other attacks for more double dmg.

[Elves]

I don't understand the justification for Decisive Strike on a Trip-oriented area controller.
Decisive Strike doubles the damage of all attacks you make before the start of your next turn, including AoOs from Improved Trip, Robilar's, etc.


Decisive strike is full-round action so you need a way for enemy to make as many attacks as possible or you to do as many unarmed attacks as possible. Snap kick, roundabout kick, etc. for tripping. Mob gets up, they provoke AoO. Get another snap kick. If you throw disarming in there. They pick up their weapon, provoke AoO.

The thing about Snap Kick is that there's a 20-foot gap between the character's natural reach and their reach with the meteor hammer. So a lot of the time they won't be able to use Snap Kick because their target will be outside their unarmed range. Same problem with Roundabout Kick.

How would you add in disarming?

Yes, more ways of getting AoOs would definitely be good. Ideas?

[Emperor Tippy]

Decisive Strike doubles the damage of all attacks you make before the start of your next turn, including AoOs from Improved Trip, Robilar's, etc.



The thing about Snap Kick is that there's a 20-foot gap between the character's natural reach and their reach with the meteor hammer. So a lot of the time they won't be able to use Snap Kick because their target will be outside their unarmed range. Same problem with Roundabout Kick.

How would you add in disarming?

Yes, more ways of getting AoOs would definitely be good. Ideas?

The other problem with Snap Kick is the stacking -2 To Hit with every use. That can add up to being quite substantial pretty fast if you are taking multiple Snap Kicks.

[animewatcha]

There are two schools of thought with that pentalty. One is what Emperor Tippy. The other is that there is only 'one penalty' from it whole round due to 'only highest penalty from same source' and a couple of other things I can't remember.





The thing about Snap Kick is that there's a 20-foot gap between the character's natural reach and their reach with the meteor hammer. So a lot of the time they won't be able to use Snap Kick because their target will be outside their unarmed range. Same problem with Roundabout Kick.

How would you add in disarming?

Yes, more ways of getting AoOs would definitely be good. Ideas?

Skipped over the meteor hammer part. However, stuff is usually combined with aptitude weapon and such so 'any weapon' can be used. Half-mino is actually have the work of disarming. Improved disarm helps too. IIRC, meteor hammer has the language of disarm bonus and what not. A person trying to pickup their weapon provokes an AoO. Trip-builds usually fit in disarming as well.

-sidenote- Decisive strike requiring unarmed strike or special monk weapon. Also if DM is willing to accomodate, you could do scorpion kama's enchantment onto the meteor hammer.

[Elves]

There are two schools of thought with that pentalty. One is what Emperor Tippy. The other is that there is only 'one penalty' from it whole round due to 'only highest penalty from same source' and a couple of other things I can't remember.

Yeah, I don't see a definitive answer.

Even if the penalties stack, it would be valuable. The thing that's giving me pause is that 20 foot reach disparity. In a vacuum, I don't know how big of a problem that will be -- how often the character won't be able to benefit from Snap Kick at all.



However, stuff is usually combined with aptitude weapon and such so 'any weapon' can be used.
So you think an aptitude weapon would let you make Snap Kick attacks with it? Seems iffy.


-sidenote- Decisive strike requiring unarmed strike or special monk weapon.
Meteor hammer/rope dart counts as monk weapon.


Any thoughts on filling up the empty build levels? Looking up an old thread on the Snap Kick stacking, I saw Tippy recommending a similar build with swashbuckler 3.

If going factotum 8, a level of warblade or swordsage is probably important so that you can use standard action strikes instead of normal attacks with Cunning Surge. Still not sure if fac 8 is the best way to go however.

[Emperor Tippy]

Any thoughts on filling up the empty build levels? Looking up an old thread on the Snap Kick stacking, I saw Tippy recommending a similar build with swashbuckler 3.

If going factotum 8, a level of warblade or swordsage is probably important so that you can use standard action strikes instead of normal attacks with Cunning Surge. Still not sure if fac 8 is the best way to go however.

If you are going Decisive Strike Factotum: Rogue 1/ Invisible Fist Decisive Strike Martial Monk 2/ Factotum 8/ Hit and Run Fighter 1/ Swashbuckler 3/ X4 / Swordsage 1

Dex to damage twice (Fighter and Shadow Blade), Craven, Int to damage twice (Factotum and Swashbuckler), Strength to damage; all of it doubled again with Decisive Strike. 20 Str, 20 Dex, 20 Int means 2(25+HD) bonus damage on every attack before you add in anything else that gives fixed bonus damage (a collision weapon, for example).

[Elves]

If you are going Decisive Strike Factotum: Rogue 1/ Invisible Fist Decisive Strike Martial Monk 2/ Factotum 8/ Hit and Run Fighter 1/ Swashbuckler 3/ X4 / Swordsage 1

Dex to damage twice (Fighter and Shadow Blade), Craven, Int to damage twice (Factotum and Swashbuckler), Strength to damage; all of it doubled again with Decisive Strike. 20 Str, 20 Dex, 20 Int means 2(25+HD) bonus damage on every attack before you add in anything else that gives fixed bonus damage (a collision weapon, for example).

Sounds pretty good, only change I'd make is Justiciar of Taiia 1 instead of rogue 1 for sneak attack -- gets you free EWP (meteor hammer).

[Kalkra]

If you are going Decisive Strike Factotum: Rogue 1/ Invisible Fist Decisive Strike Martial Monk 2/ Factotum 8/ Hit and Run Fighter 1/ Swashbuckler 3/ X4 / Swordsage 1

Dex to damage twice (Fighter and Shadow Blade), Craven, Int to damage twice (Factotum and Swashbuckler), Strength to damage; all of it doubled again with Decisive Strike. 20 Str, 20 Dex, 20 Int means 2(25+HD) bonus damage on every attack before you add in anything else that gives fixed bonus damage (a collision weapon, for example).

Obligatory reminder of the Crescent Knife and Scourge from Dragon #275, which are the best weapons to use in conjunction with fixed bonus damage, other than maybe the Braid Blade. That being said, they aren't Monk weapons, and you can't take Unorthodox Flurry to make them Monk weapons, because you don't have a Flurry. So it probably doesn't work, but if you can find some way to make it work, it would be really good.

[Emperor Tippy]

Obligatory reminder of the Crescent Knife and Scourge from Dragon #275, which are the best weapons to use in conjunction with fixed bonus damage, other than maybe the Braid Blade. That being said, they aren't Monk weapons, and you can't take Unorthodox Flurry to make them Monk weapons, because you don't have a Flurry. So it probably doesn't work, but if you can find some way to make it work, it would be really good.

Using anything but a Shadowhand weapon costs you one iteration of Dex to damage.

[Kalkra]

Using anything but a Shadowhand weapon costs you one iteration of Dex to damage.

I confess, I wasn't really looking that closely at the build. That being said, losing one iteration of Dex to damage doesn't seems that bad if you're getting double or triple damage otherwise.