Getting Back Into 4E

[JNAProductions]

See title. I've picked up a lot of the core books on DMs Guild, because I remember having a blast with 4E.

I never, when I played, owned much more than the original books. So what was fixed/improved in the later books, and what are some key points I should know? Also, any good adventure paths to pick up?

Thank you for any and all advice!

[Boci]

Later monster manuals tweaked the numbers of monsters, and Players Handbook 2 or 3 added a line of expertise feats which gave +1 to hit per tier. Essentials tried something new, like psionic classes which only had at will powers and could then augment them into encounters or dailies, they also added background which were a free upgrade. An extra encounter power, not too strong, and I think a free skill training from your choice of 2?

[Tvtyrant]

See title. I've picked up a lot of the core books on DMs Guild, because I remember having a blast with 4E.

I never, when I played, owned much more than the original books. So what was fixed/improved in the later books, and what are some key points I should know? Also, any good adventure paths to pick up?

Thank you for any and all advice!

Essentials created a bunch of stripped down classes, most of which were slightly weaker and much more boring then their main book equivalent. The Thief was pretty strong, and the Slayer had a really strong but bland mechanic of getting strength and dex to damage.

[Dimers]

Number one change since the early days: monster stats. Battles against MM1 monsters tended to drag and didn't threaten the PCs much; MM3 and Monster Vault monsters are more damaging and have fewer hit points.

Many people feel that the Expertise feats were a fix for a problem, because (assuming magical equipment as normal) PCs' attack bonuses lags behind monster defenses by about 1 per tier. Regardless of whether such a "fix" was needed, they're very popular, and some of them have interesting side benefits -- they get chosen a lot, even more than multiclassing feats.

Likewise, PCs' Fort/Refl/Will (but not AC) lagged behind monster attack bonuses by about 1 per tier, and the Improved Defenses feat from a couple of the Essentials books makes up the difference. In my experience, 'feat tax' is the most common houserule, giving one Expertise and one free defensive feat (which people usually spend on Improved Defenses) to each PC.

I don't much care for the Essentials classes -- very bland, as Tvtyrant said, and not all that effective, especially at higher levels.

The Power splatbooks all expanded players' options, but only Divine Power made a substantial change. It gave paladins an important extra tool as a defender, called divine sanction. Paladins can now use their divine challenge power on one creature and still mark and punish others via divine sanction.

What Boci mentioned is character themes, mostly found in Dragon issues and in setting-specific books like Dark Sun (which started the whole thing IIRC). They expand and flavor what PCs can do unrelated to class/race. Most of them give you an extra encounter power, most of them give specific numeric benefits, and all of them let you swap out your class's utility and attack powers for thematic ones. A Guttersnipe human fighter can be substantially mechanically different from an Order Adept or Ordained Priest or Fey Beast Tamer human fighter.

As with themes, sometimes you can swap your class utility powers for racial utilities. Not all races have them, only about half, though that's a fine area for homebrew.

The original game's restriction was removed on how many item daily powers a PC could use. How skill challenges are supposed to work has been updated a time or seven, but they're still badly executed. Loot drops have also changed, very much for the worse. Stealth rules have also seen a little churn. They're better written now but still not exactly intuitive; for a detailed rundown, see LordOfWeasels' Rules Of Hidden Club (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?447238-The-Rules-of-Hidden-Club).

I'm rarely involved in modules, so I can't help much there. But I just purchased and started running Madness at Gardmore Abbey (IC (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?610790-Madness-at-Gardmore-Abbey-(IC)), OOC (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?610619-Madness-at-Gardmore-Abbey-(OOC)&p=24458086)), and it's pretty well made, definitely recommendable. It's for 6th-level PCs and will probably take them to 8th.

[JNAProductions]

Did they update monster CREATION guidelines too? Or just the monsters themselves?

[masteraleph]

Not officially, but you can use MM3 on a Business Card (http://blogofholding.com/?p=512) for the correct math.

[JNAProductions]

How does one determine WBL for 4E? Is there a table I've yet to spot?

[masteraleph]

How does one determine WBL for 4E? Is there a table I've yet to spot?

Depends on whether you're advancing through levels or whether you're starting a new PC.

The standard for starting a new PC higher than level one is one item each of level +1, level, and level -1, and level -1 worth of gold. Low level PCs (say, 3rd level) will have more than they probably should, while very high level PCs will have less. There are people who have suggested different models for that- for example, give them gold instead of all of those items and let them buy whatever they want.

For advancing through levels, for a party of 5, the expectation is 4 items, 1 each of level +1,2,3, and 4, and also 2x on level gold (for the party, so 2/5 level gold for each PC). Many organized play settings- Living Forgotten Realms was one when 4e was actively supported- substituted the items with slightly lower level ones but giving one to each PC, because it's frustrating to be the one PC who doesn't find an item.

The other question is rarity. Originally, 4e was released with a limit on use of daily item powers, but PCs could more or less get the items they wanted (there was a wishlist expectation, with the idea that DMs would pick something off of it, and you could pretty much buy what you could afford unless DMs restricted you). When Essentials was released, they bowed to the requests of some DMs, and instituted two new things: a rarity system, which limited PCs to only being able to buy/make Common items, then Uncommon items, which the DM would provide about 1/2 the time, and then Rare items, which would be even more restricted. They also pushed for randomized treasure (i.e. doing away with wishlists). Multiple devs commented that this was a terrible idea- not only can PCs end up with items they can't use, or that are useless given the feats/powers they've chosen, but also, upwards of 90% of items are Uncommon, so DMs basically end up with total control over items. Again, organized play tends to do away with some of this- LFR allowed PCs to pick a higher level Common item of their choice with each level-up, or an on-level Uncommon item, or accept one of the items distributed through the adventure (which tended to be Uncommons and Rares of a higher level, though not guaranteed to be useful to the player). Long story short- either set expectations with your players that you'll provide Inherent Bonuses (+1 to Enhancement bonus for weapon/implement attacks at levels 2/7/12/17/22/27 and to neck and armor at 4/9/14/19/24/29) and reduced items, or let your players have some choice over what they get.

[ScrivenerofDoom]

Make sure you get the offline tools as they make it a lot easier to run the game.

scrivenerofdoom
at
gmail
dot
com

[JNAProductions]

What are the tools?

[ScrivenerofDoom]

What are the tools?

Offline character builder with all the data from all the books.

Offline monster builder (also great for designing encounters, adventures, and campaigns) with all the data from all the books.

Offline compendium with all the data from all the books.

[MwaO]

Btw, link to 4e discord server with over 1000 members...

https://discord.gg/TR6FWS

[JNAProductions]

Btw, link to 4e discord server with over 1000 members...

https://discord.gg/TR6FWS

I managed to find that on my own, while looking for character sheet templates.

What would you guys consider the essential details to have on-hand, for running and playing? Obviously stuff like the conditions, but since I only have the PDFs, once I'm able to game IRL again, Imma want to keep checking the laptop to a minimum.

[masteraleph]

For running, you'd also want the skill difficulty table (and it was updated from the original publication).

[JNAProductions]

For running, you'd also want the skill difficulty table (and it was updated from the original publication).

Is the most updated one in the DMG2?

[Beoric]

Is the most updated one in the DMG2?

No, it is in the Rules Compendium. Scrivener may have some ideas how you could get it.

[JNAProductions]

No, it is in the Rules Compendium. Scrivener may have some ideas how you could get it.

I'm perfectly fine buying the books as a PDF.

I just don't want to buy too many I don't need.

[Delta]

Loving this thread, every couple months or once a year or so, I also feel the urge to pick up 4e again.

As much as I love how much easy it is to pick up 5e especially with newbie players, it lacks a certain "meat" on its crunchy bones 4e had, without all the headaches 3e gave me as a GM once spellcasters realized they could make the world their bitch at will.

If I just want to run something encounter-and-loot-heavy with a bit of fluffy bits on the side, still think 4e is a great choice. I understand why it failed overall because it did only one thing well, so many people who weren't exactly into that one thing didn't like it, but that one specific thing it did really well in my book.

[Beoric]

I'm perfectly fine buying the books as a PDF.

I just don't want to buy too many I don't need.

Its also in Heroes of the Fallen Lands and Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms, in case you were picking those up. Most folks around here don't much like the classes in them, but they are simpler to build and play if you have any old school players, and they mostly work fine in Heroic Tier.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Loving this thread, every couple months or once a year or so, I also feel the urge to pick up 4e again.

As much as I love how much easy it is to pick up 5e especially with newbie players, it lacks a certain "meat" on its crunchy bones 4e had, without all the headaches 3e gave me as a GM once spellcasters realized they could make the world their bitch at will.

If I just want to run something encounter-and-loot-heavy with a bit of fluffy bits on the side, still think 4e is a great choice. I understand why it failed overall because it did only one thing well, so many people who weren't exactly into that one thing didn't like it, but that one specific thing it did really well in my book.

3.5 may be my favorite for character building and experimenting with the system, but 4E is my favorite for actual play.

[InAction]

Haven't really made a post in a while, but I've been feeling that itch to play again while hold-up at home. Just wanted to express my shared sentiment with the rest that I really want to get back to playing 4E.

[MwaO]

Haven't really made a post in a while, but I've been feeling that itch to play again while hold-up at home. Just wanted to express my shared sentiment with the rest that I really want to get back to playing 4E.

4e Discord with over 1000 people...

https://discord.gg/vErwWr

[InAction]

4e Discord with over 1000 people...

https://discord.gg/vErwWr
I know. I've tried the link before, but it's not working for some reason. No idea why.

[MwaO]

I know. I've tried the link before, but it's not working for some reason. No idea why.

The link expires normally after a day to prevent scammers. Here's a new one:

https://discord.gg/mSsuSN

[JNAProductions]

I'm thinking about running a basic little Necromancer in the woods type of adventure. If I want to use the monsters from MM1 and such, should I adjust their stats based on the MM3 math?

[Boci]

I'm thinking about running a basic little Necromancer in the woods type of adventure. If I want to use the monsters from MM1 and such, should I adjust their stats based on the MM3 math?

Probably, though its only really importafter from level 11+ I believe.

[Excession]

I'm thinking about running a basic little Necromancer in the woods type of adventure. If I want to use the monsters from MM1 and such, should I adjust their stats based on the MM3 math?

If possible I would recommend using monsters from Monster Vault and Monster Vault: Threats to the Nentir Vale. It's not just the new math from MM3, they're also designed better. That goes double for elites and solos, where the math changes are bigger and having something where the flavour and mechanics work well together to give a good experience for a boss fight is more important.

[Diego]

Start at level 1!
Level 1 characters are not like Level 1 D&D characters from any other edition - they start with usable resources, durability, and capability more akin to level 3 in 5e. They start with all the tools to really enable their primary combat roles (no waiting till level 3 for your archetype), significant short and long rest resources that can define encounters. Higher level characters get more complicated very rapidly as they accumulate additional powers, feats, and items - the proliferation of powers and conditional bonuses is very real and you will want to start at 1 in order so everyone can adapt to get used to what their character can do as well as what the rest of the party can do and how all those parts interact.

(I'm convinced some small portion of the bad rep 4e gets for long and super confusing combat comes from people diving into 1 shots of high paragon and epic tier play. Yeah, things WILL take forever if you have the entire party needing to check lists of 12+ powers, and 10+ feats every time its their turn)

Also - play with people you trust. Past level 5 or so, a 4 or 5 person party can get really too much for one person to easily hold in their head especially on top of normal GMing factors. Trust your players to know what they are doing and don't both tracking all their stuff on top of your own. By then you will know mostly the sort of stuff they can do and any BIG signature abilities.

[Delta]

By the way: Are there any premade dungeons/adventures specificially for smaller parties? Like 2-3 PCs?

[Anxe]

I doubt it. All the official modules were designed with 4 PCs in mind. They could work with 3 if you scale stuff back a bit. For 2 PCs... probably not. It'd be easier for the two PCs to have a squire/apprentice each that helps out.

[Boci]

Can you balance an offiical module for 2 or 3 players by having them be a higher level than they would normally be? Also isn't the default party size for 4th ed 5 not 4?

[Dimers]

Can you balance an offiical module for 2 or 3 players by having them be a higher level than they would normally be?

Well, yes and no. A larger group has a much better variety of abilities to deal with noncombat situations and changing tactical needs in combat. Unless you step several levels up (with equipment to match!), the PCs' damage output is low -- adding 15% accuracy doesn't make up for losing 40% of your team. And since damage taken tends to be much lower too, you're back to the MM1 problem of combats feeling draggy. XP gain is basically fine, though.

[Diego]

Can you balance an offiical module for 2 or 3 players by having them be a higher level than they would normally be? Also isn't the default party size for 4th ed 5 not 4?

I'd say the answer is not really. I don't think the numbers work - or at least don't lead to interesting game play. (the primary benefits of leveling up will come in the form of PCs having higher attack rolls and defenses than the monster math expect. And having a combat where the PCs erode enemies who they hit 80% of the time and are hit 20% of the time isn't very compelling gameplay in my book). The DMG strongly recommends avoiding monstres outside a range of level-4 and level+4 (and even that is pushing it) for a reason.

For a lot of the official modules though, you can reduce the number of enemies - solo fights might take more tinkering but you can replace a solo with a comparably leveled Elite and it should functoin alright. (my game now is for one player running 3 PCs - building encounters at level 1 was a little tricky, but since then it has worked well).