Best in your opinion Magic Secrets picks for Lore Bard?

[Alucard89]

As title says. I am just curious what others thing as generally best picks for Lore Bard.


Lets see some of best options:

Level 6: Counterspell (obviously) unless you have Abjuration Wizard, Fireball (if you don't have Wizard/Sorcerer), Spiritual Weapon (if you are Hexblade/Lore Bard and want to stack maximum DPR vs single target), Conjure Animals (crazy in Tier 1 and 2, falls off later)

Level 10: Circle Of Power, Bigby's Hand (if you skipped Spiritual Weapon) for bonus action damage and control, Telekinesis (Lore Bards are NASTY with it with JoAT + Cutting Words) - but don't take it if you took Bigby's Hand, Wall of Force - one of 2 superior control/defense spells, Steel Wind Strike - good substitiute for fireball since you avoid FF but you need to make attack which means you can miss, Find Greater Steed - superior mobility and utility spell, but can be useless in closed cquarters/dungeons. Sickening Radiance is another great spell since you get Forcecage for one of the nastiest combos in game. Banishment is also great for single target.

Level 10 imo has the most interesting choices:

1. Circle of Power + Steel Wind strike is great second-line support combo for Lore Bard. You give everyone huge defense vs spells + you can go for big AOE damage without hitting your allies.

2. Wall of Force + Telekinesis/Banishment makes you super scary Controller. You can shut down any melee enemies or Huge enemy + Telekinesis is best save or suck boss spell since Lore Bard is best at ability checks + Legendary Resistances doesn't work against it. Banishment targets rare save and can also remove biggest threat from fight.

3. Bigby's Hand + Steel Wind Strike or Wall of Force is also great combination. You can SWS enemies and smack another one with Hand. Or close enemy with your Hand inside Wall of Force.

I am not Find Greater Steed fan myself. There are stronger spells out there, thought If you are blaster Lore Bard, riding Pegasus and spaming Agonizing Blast can work too I guess.

Level 14 the choice is imo obvious at least for me: Simulacrum should always be the pick here. The second one I would say would be either: Reverse Gravity or Crown of Stars. However Contingency from level 6 is also not a bad choice. If you didn't multiclass to Hexblade or Paladin - it's great way to boost your defenses.

Level 18 again I think one is must pick: Wish, the other one... I guess Invulnerability or Meteor Swarm. Mass Heal is also nice.

If I were playing without Wizard but with Cleric or Paladin in my party I would pick:

6: Counterspell + Fireball
10: Wall of Force + Telekinesis
14: Simulacrum + Reverse Gravity if no dip. Crown of Stars if Hexblade 2/Lore Bard to combo with Agonizing Blast + Hex vs single boss.
18: Wish + Mass Heal would be my pick I guess.

[Veldrenor]

Depends greatly on the party, the character, and the players/DM. For my Fighter 6/Lore Bard 14 anti-caster grappler, the choices were:

6th level:
Counterspell & Spirit Guardians
Everyone knows why Counterspell is good. Spirit Guardians was great because it allowed me to deal consistent, constant damage while I was grabbing and locking down our foes.

10th level:
Steel Wind Strike & Circle of Power
Steel Wind Strike gave me some great pseudo-AoE damage that I could fire off from inside my own Silence spell. Circle of Power was good, but not as good as I'd hoped and it didn't see much play (I might've only cast it two or three times, honestly). Bigby's Hand probably would've served me better, even with my bonus actions typically going to Tavern Brawler's shove.

14th level:
Plane Shift and Bigby's Hand. We found ourselves in quite a pickle at one point in the campaign because we were stuck in an extra-dimensional space and our Wizard, who had died during one of the fights in the space, was the only one who had Plane Shift to get us out. We found a way around that thanks to a timely level-up, but nonetheless I took Plane Shift myself to avoid such issues in the future. Bigby's Hand, as you pointed out, is some great bonus action damage and control, and as I said in the 10th level spells something I probably should've picked up earlier.

You're right that Simulacrum is probably a snap-pick most of the time for the 14th level secrets, but it just didn't fit my character's personality or place in the party terribly well (and it was the end of the campaign anyway, so, didn't matter much).

[diplomancer]

I think that, unless you have only 1-2 fights per long rest, it's probably a better idea to, no matter which choices you take, to have them be of different levels, so they don't compete with each other.

So a 2nd and a 3rd for 6th, a 4th and a 5th for 10th, a 6th and a 7th for 14.

For 18th I was going to say an 8th and a 9th, and that definitely works, say, wish and maze. But mass heal is the sort of spell that turns a TPK into a victory, so I have to say wish and mass heal, unless you have a cleric in the party.

[Alucard89]

10th level:
Steel Wind Strike & Circle of Power
Steel Wind Strike gave me some great pseudo-AoE damage that I could fire off from inside my own Silence spell. Circle of Power was good, but not as good as I'd hoped and it didn't see much play (I might've only cast it two or three times, honestly). Bigby's Hand probably would've served me better, even with my bonus actions typically going to Tavern Brawler's shove.

I agree about Circle of Power. It's a spell that can absolutely trivialize combat vs enemy casters, problem is that from my experience - enemy casters are every encounter and rarely more than 1, maaaaybe 2. So Circle of Power while terrific spell - it's very situational and vs single caster- counterspell or silence is much better.

Hence why I prefer Wall of Force - it's one of those spells that has so many uses, is super powerful and concentration-free.

[DrKerosene]

I haven’t had a chance to actually use Find (Greater) Steed, but I believe it pairs well with Armor Of Agathys and Blade Ward for tanking.

I like the idea of stealing Swift Quiver, if you don’t have a lot of Bonus Actions to choose from.

It’s hard to beat Call Lightning for total damage potential in a non-combat scenario.

I have wanted to try a CE bard who combines Glyph Of Warding with Fireball or Infernal Calling to create remote “bombs”, if it would be appropriate to the campaign.

[Aaron Underhand]

I think that, unless you have only 1-2 fights per long rest, it's probably a better idea to, no matter which choices you take, to have them be of different levels, so they don't compete with each other.

So a 2nd and a 3rd for 6th, a 4th and a 5th for 10th, a 6th and a 7th for 14.

For 18th I was going to say an 8th and a 9th, and that definitely works, say, wish and maze. But mass heal is the sort of spell that turns a TPK into a victory, so I have to say wish and mass heal, unless you have a cleric in the party.

I have to say I tend to disagree with this sentiment. The key is to gather the maximum power and flexibility for the character concept, and that will often mean the highest level spells are best. Particularly at 6th when the power jump from 2nd to 3rd level spells is so large. Spells like counterspell (a very strong pick in my view) can be situational - you wont use them every day. I would typically pick that and then one of the other key spells for my party, my character concept, and utility. In a party with no AoE blaster I pick Fireball, but other times I might pick Fly, Conjure Animals, Revivify or even Water Breathing. That said if the party, or the character really needs something I can see arguments for Darkvision, Pass without Trace, Mirror Image or Misty Step.


Also remember these spells will stay with you, and many can also be upcast, so your 3rd level spells may be competing for those 4th level slots.

[Alucard89]

I have to say I tend to disagree with this sentiment. The key is to gather the maximum power and flexibility for the character concept, and that will often mean the highest level spells are best. Particularly at 6th when the power jump from 2nd to 3rd level spells is so large. Spells like counterspell (a very strong pick in my view) can be situational - you wont use them every day. I would typically pick that and then one of the other key spells for my party, my character concept, and utility. In a party with no AoE blaster I pick Fireball, but other times I might pick Fly, Conjure Animals, Revivify or even Water Breathing. That said if the party, or the character really needs something I can see arguments for Darkvision, Pass without Trace, Mirror Image or Misty Step.


Also remember these spells will stay with you, and many can also be upcast, so your 3rd level spells may be competing for those 4th level slots.

I also like to mention here a Sleet Storm spell for level 3. Very undervalued spell in my opinion. It's DEX save or fall prone, it's difficult terrain on 40 feet radius and enemy needs to save when it starts it's turn there or enters it. If they fall prone they need to get up using half their movement. They are left with half their movement inside difficulty terrain which cut's their movement in half. So 30 feet creature now has only 5 feet movement left.

Combine that with Repelling Blast from Warlock dip or your warlock friend or Gust of Wind from your Wizard friend and you can keep enemies inside Storm forever.

Not saying iti's king of 3rd level spells but it's god dam strong vs a group of enemies.


Call Lighting is cool spell but sadly it's useless half of the time cause you need to use it outside... which is lame and not worth precious 3rd level slot.

Spiritual Weapon is my strong contender vs fireball for Hexbard due to synergy. Hex + 4th level Spiritual Weapon + Curse + 11th level Agonizing Blast is 3 x (1d10 + 5 + 1d6 + 4) + 2d8 + 1d6 + 4, which gives strong 66 DPR without Conentration so you can still drop that Hypnotic Pattern on enemies or enchance ability on yourself to counterspell that enemy caster with advantage etc.

[Aaron Underhand]

If I were playing without Wizard but with Cleric or Paladin in my party I would pick:

6: Counterspell + Fireball
10: Wall of Force + Telekinesis
14: Simulacrum + Reverse Gravity if no dip. Crown of Stars if Hexblade 2/Lore Bard to combo with Agonizing Blast + Hex vs single boss.
18: Wish + Mass Heal would be my pick I guess.

It does seem in AL play that often there is no wizard :-)

My picks in this circumstance would be:

6: Counterspell + Fireball
10: Wall of Force + Telekinesis
14: Simulacrum + Plane Shift (doubles as a teleport, freeing other picks)
18: Wish + Demiplane (in this case I don't like a lot of the other 9th level spells and Mass Heal will steal from the clerics) Astral Project is possible if the campaign needs it...

[Aaron Underhand]

I agree about Circle of Power. It's a spell that can absolutely trivialize combat vs enemy casters, problem is that from my experience - enemy casters are every encounter and rarely more than 1, maaaaybe 2. So Circle of Power while terrific spell - it's very situational and vs single caster- counterspell or silence is much better.

Hence why I prefer Wall of Force - it's one of those spells that has so many uses, is super powerful and concentration-free.

You're thinking of Forcecage - Wall of Force, while great, needs concentration.

Oh - and I agree with Sleet Storm - Great spell - if your adventuring is outside, not dungeon delving...

[Kereea]

So my first Lore Bard was an under-leveled character in an epic level campaign (she was seven when everyone else was 21, they ended around 25 while she was just on the cusp of finally reaching lv 20). However, the party was very melee based, being a monk, fighter, and physical-combat oriented druid. Healing was handled by NPC assistants (the fighter had several followers she could summon, including a ferret that eventually became a god via the Power of Friendship and a spectral crab that had a mild healing AOE up) which meant my job was to go hard into Arcane Damage, while also utilizing the status effects of my Bard Spells well.

Fireball did a ton of good since it synced well with the monk's obscenely good Dex save abilities and we did several megadungeons with smallish rooms it could nuke to soften up enemies. I liked Synaptic Static which was a bard spell, the but save was not one any of my teammates could tank, making Fireball often more useful.

Steel Wind Strike was also good, especially if too many melee enemies got too close to me or the healers (who I usually tried to keep safe to free up the stronger characters).

Prismatic Spray at Seventh Level was THE spell I used for higher level spells. It just got so much done for me, especially since we had so many varied enemies, anything cone shaped worked well.

On the other hand, I was encouraged to take Flesh to Stone and got just about no use out of it, just given my general role in the group.

Really I didn't use any of my eighth or ninth level spells that much, mostly just used their slots to upcast. I did take Wish with my lv 18 spell secrets because we were coming up on the Big Super Final Battle of Crazy in case I needed some kind of Mass Resurrection or something, but it didn't come up because only one person did anything really dumb. Ditto for Prismatic Wall.

However, one of the Big Bads had some super-dodge magic so ironically an upcasted Magic Missile was weirdly effective there. May have been a Just That Thing sitution.

Again, it comes down to what your party is going to need. Mine needed AOE magic damage to soften up enemies to make the melee trio sweeping in easier, and when they didn't it was Bard Spell Time. Mass Suggestion came in handy pretty often in those megadungeons.

[diplomancer]

In the end, there are too many factors to consider in a white room scenario

Just for one example: Have you got your hands in an instrument of the bards? Then you will want counterspell, sure, but for the rest of your 3rd level slots you are going to want to cast hypnotic pattern. I can't tell how many encounters my Bard trivialized with HP.

Even without it, I would only get fireball if my DM had a tendency to have clustering mooks. Action denial is, in most cases, a lot better than spread-out damage.

I also can't think of any regular 4th level Bard spell better than Find Greater Steed. Even Polymorph, by 10th level (11th with a dip) has already fallen off.

Finally, one other consideration on your choices: Concentration. Bards have awesome native spells which require concentration. I'm not saying "never get a magic secrets spell that requires concentration" but consider very well before you do so. The only one that I think is really worthy is Telekinesis, and, if your DM is very nice, the Druid's conjure line. It's hard to beat a spell that summons 8 pixies.

[Corran]

I consider find greater steed, simulacrum and wish as sure picks. And I'd find it very hard (but possible) not to pick counterspell with additional magical secrets.

[Eldariel]

Sadly you kinda run out of steam higher up picking up all the Wizard goodies. The good part is, you can pick up Find Greater Steed and have some other cool options with Jack of All Trades and Lore's ability to add to their checks. Counterspell is must, Telekinesis/Bigby's are really good, Animate Dead/Conjure Animals is quite nice (Animate Dead goes better with Hypnotic Pattern though), Contingency/Simulacrum are musts and Shapechange/Wish are just the best 9th level spells in the game (conveniently they give you access to all the other spells under 9th level while at it, and a number of other 9s).

[T.G. Oskar]

I had a friend of mine (who decidedly doesn't like playing Bards) who played a Lore Bard, and he had quite an interesting set of choices.

For starters, he strangely didn't go for Bless, but it would have been a great choice. Then again, since I was playing as a Cleric, and I had Bless, he probably didn't want to double-down on it. He did choose Counterspell and Telekinesis, and went for Crown of Stars which was amazing for the last battle of the campaign. However, he went for Teleportation Circle (which made every travel insanely easy for that last bit of the campaign, considering there was no other Arcane caster but his) and Synaptic Static.

IIRC, his choices were:
Counterspell (6th): Since we had a lot of casters using spells, he decided to use that to counter them. It wasn't as useful because we were playing on a "Counterspell beats Counterspell" kinda thing, and it forced the DM to use two Counterspells instead of one, but it saw quite a bit of use.
Booming Blade (6th?): I know he liked the Cantrip just to have an option if he went into melee. He used it with a rapier which he then enchanted later on (quite a bit, I must add!). It was a good boost to his damage.
Synaptic Static (10th): Again, no arcane caster, and while I had Flame Strike, it wasn't enough firepower. This spell was insanely useful, as it combined good damage, a hard-to-resist save AND a sweet penalty altogether.
Telekinesis (10th): After fighting so many dragons who took it to the skies, that became one of the most useful dragon deterrents. Using Jack-of-all-Trades on the Charisma check was hilariously good, and it managed to keep some nasty dragons on check, since it restrains their move. Helped a lot the party, since it was comprised of a lot of melee characters.
Crown of Stars (14th): used only on the final battle, but boy if it wasn't extremely useful in the end. A ranged attack as a bonus action is tailor-made for him.

One thing I'll recommend is to pick spells that can contribute to what the party lacks. As a spontaneous spellcaster (who must choose which spells to know), utility takes a front seat to the versatility of prepared casters, so each spell has to be curated. So, in the case of Magical Secrets, the best choices are those that have great utility and that the Bard lacks, or spells that have lots of potential and that the party may lack.

[Alucard89]

I had a friend of mine (who decidedly doesn't like playing Bards) who played a Lore Bard, and he had quite an interesting set of choices.

For starters, he strangely didn't go for Bless, but it would have been a great choice. Then again, since I was playing as a Cleric, and I had Bless, he probably didn't want to double-down on it. He did choose Counterspell and Telekinesis, and went for Crown of Stars which was amazing for the last battle of the campaign. However, he went for Teleportation Circle (which made every travel insanely easy for that last bit of the campaign, considering there was no other Arcane caster but his) and Synaptic Static.

IIRC, his choices were:
Counterspell (6th): Since we had a lot of casters using spells, he decided to use that to counter them. It wasn't as useful because we were playing on a "Counterspell beats Counterspell" kinda thing, and it forced the DM to use two Counterspells instead of one, but it saw quite a bit of use.
Booming Blade (6th?): I know he liked the Cantrip just to have an option if he went into melee. He used it with a rapier which he then enchanted later on (quite a bit, I must add!). It was a good boost to his damage.
Synaptic Static (10th): Again, no arcane caster, and while I had Flame Strike, it wasn't enough firepower. This spell was insanely useful, as it combined good damage, a hard-to-resist save AND a sweet penalty altogether.
Telekinesis (10th): After fighting so many dragons who took it to the skies, that became one of the most useful dragon deterrents. Using Jack-of-all-Trades on the Charisma check was hilariously good, and it managed to keep some nasty dragons on check, since it restrains their move. Helped a lot the party, since it was comprised of a lot of melee characters.
Crown of Stars (14th): used only on the final battle, but boy if it wasn't extremely useful in the end. A ranged attack as a bonus action is tailor-made for him.

One thing I'll recommend is to pick spells that can contribute to what the party lacks. As a spontaneous spellcaster (who must choose which spells to know), utility takes a front seat to the versatility of prepared casters, so each spell has to be curated. So, in the case of Magical Secrets, the best choices are those that have great utility and that the Bard lacks, or spells that have lots of potential and that the party may lack.

um, but Synaptic Static is on bard spell list....

[iTreeby]

Bards are the best class to cast magic jar with, as they seem to be the only class that can cast it with a charisma and are proficient in the save it forces on you.

[Alucard89]

I consider find greater steed, simulacrum and wish as sure picks. And I'd find it very hard (but possible) not to pick counterspell with additional magical secrets.

I am not sold on Find Greater Steed for Lore Bard. It's great spell but I don't think it's better than Circle of Power, Steel Wind strike, Wall of Force, Telekinesis, Banishment or Bigby Hand. Not only it's 4th level vs 5th level spells but while it's nice to have flying and extra movement, I think you will be more useful for your team with things like Wall of Force or Telekinesis/Bigby Hand than flying horse.

[Eldariel]

Bards are the best class to cast magic jar with, as they seem to be the only class that can cast it with a charisma and are proficient in the save it forces on you.

The spell forcing a save on you is quite the failcase, but yeah, that's still true. Wizard does have a pesky issue with having to make a nonproficient save against their own save DC to survive without Revivify or something.

[Nagog]

Depends on your playstyle. Personally I'd pick up Banishing Smite and Steel Wind Strike for my Paladin 2/Lore Bard x because they combo exceptionally well together and it fits their playstyle.
On another, I pick up Fireball and Find Greater Steed for some air support type stuff.
For another potential build, Thorn Whip and Spirit Guardians can make for a wonderful combo. Spirit Guardians is just an excellent spell in general.

[diplomancer]

I am not sold on Find Greater Steed for Lore Bard. It's great spell but I don't think it's better than Circle of Power, Steel Wind strike, Wall of Force, Telekinesis, Banishment or Bigby Hand. Not only it's 4th level vs 5th level spells but while it's nice to have flying and extra movement, I think you will be more useful for your team with things like Wall of Force or Telekinesis/Bigby Hand than flying horse.

You are forgetting:
1- the sharing spells clause. This is awesome with a lot of spells. Tenser's Transformation is my favourite
2- It's a "free" flying horse, on most days you are not even paying a slot for that. So the comparison is not between, say, Circle of Power vs. Flying horse, but between Circle of Power vs. Flying horse AND animate objects.
3- The True Polymorph 9th level spell. At level 17th, that "flying horse" you dismiss is a totally loyal CR9 dragon after 2 castings of True Polymorph, with which you can still share spells, as neither the loyalty nor the sharing spells are game statistics. Hard to beat that.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I like spiritual guardians, find steed, find greater steed and counterspell.

[Alucard89]

You are forgetting:
1- the sharing spells clause. This is awesome with a lot of spells. Tenser's Transformation is my favourite
2- It's a "free" flying horse, on most days you are not even paying a slot for that. So the comparison is not between, say, Circle of Power vs. Flying horse, but between Circle of Power vs. Flying horse AND animate objects.
3- The True Polymorph 9th level spell. At level 17th, that "flying horse" you dismiss is a totally loyal CR9 dragon after 2 castings of True Polymorph, with which you can still share spells, as neither the loyalty nor the sharing spells are game statistics. Hard to beat that.

Then again, Tenser Transformation vs Simulacrium, Reverse Gravity, Crown of Stars, Plane Shift, Conjure Celestial (Coautl!), Divine Word, Resurrection, Whirlwind. Tenser is not really that good for Lore Bard. For certain Whisper Bard or Sword bard builds it's absolutely great, but as Lore Bard you are mostly a caster. You can change whole battlefield with one Reverse Gravity or Divine Word, instead of doing your melee party-members job.


This also reminds me to put additional very instersting options:

1. Conjure Celestial - Coautl. This spell on level 7 is very potent. You get yourself a very strong summon (AC 19, 24 with Shield) who can cast bless, has 90 ft fly, grapple + restrain on hit target (who can then be lifted and dropped), shapechange, inniate spellcasting, is IMMUNE to nonmagical damage (which is a lot in monster manual), has truesight 120 feet and detect evil and good, detect magic, detect thoughts at will, 3/day greater restoration. Last 1 hour, enough to get full value of him in any dungeon/adventure site.

2. Divine Word - AOE, no FF, Charisma saving throw. 50 HP or less and all targets can get: deafened for 1 minute, eafened and blinded for 10 minutes, blinded, deafened, and stunned for 1 hour, killed instantly. Plus it's AOE banishment for all celestias, elementals, feys, fiends.

3. Whirlwind - AOE 10d6 damage each turn if you move Whirlwind out and in range of enemy who didn't get sucked. Large or smaller creatures get restrained inside Whirlwind on fail save. Even if they succedd they are hurl in random direction and you can move Whirlwind again to them on turn, dealing damage and forcing saves again. Freeing costs an action. I think this spell is perfect mix of AOE damage and control. Even just moving Whirlwind out and in again causing 10d6 damage (or half on DEX save) is huge. That's like hitting smaller fireball each turn + its AOE restrain and even if creature frees itself- it can be restrained/damaged again next turn.

Besides can you imagine double Whirlwind with Simulacrum on battlefield?

[vexedart]

Counterspell+spiritual weapon
Find greater steed+wall of force
Simulacrum+tensers
Wish+true polymorph

Damage and control

The only time I wouldnÂ’t take find greater steed is if itÂ’s an underdark campaign. Even getting places faster has its values when if you even have small things like down time. (It all adds up to more power)

Grab crossbow expert and resilient con and you and your simulacrum both riding Pegasi will likely out dpr the rest of your party.

6d10+12d12+30 isnÂ’t good enough for you, nothing else will be either. Mind that youÂ’re also likely out of reach. This is a no magical crossbow.

156 damage a round if you can hit with a non magical crossbow, and I donÂ’t think securing advantage would be too difficult when youÂ’re likely out maneuvering your enemies with ease anyways, that allows you to set up another layer of control at your leisure. Double that with a 2 level fighter dip for a nova that will make a paladin rogue blush. Can always just wall of force them inside with your spiritual weapon if they threaten your Pegasus, since SW doesnÂ’t take concentration, then you can simply fly out of range and wait while your weapon whittles them down.

And yes, coautl is easily the most broken creature for itÂ’s CR in the book. And can even take out certain cr20+ monsters without much hassle if they canÂ’t produce magical sources of damage. Though, once you have true polymorph you can just have an army of them around anyways.

Bards are very strong tiers 3-4.

Just ideas, you donÂ’t have to play like this, itÂ’s just very optimal imo and will make you the most dangerous open field combatant in the party IÂ’d wager. Even in a dungeon youÂ’re still dangerous, since you can just park the steed elsewhere and the other spells remain dangerous.

Also consider shapechange and true polymorph instead of wish, less powerful over all but the share spell with find steed you can have a cr17+3 gold shadow dragon around at the end game to fly around on instead of a cr9, do the same for your simulacrum amount as well, double dragon. Proceed to have books thrown at you.

[Alucard89]

Counterspell+spiritual weapon
Find greater steed+wall of force
Simulacrum+tensers
Wish+true polymorph

Damage and control

The only time I wouldnÂ’t take find greater steed is if itÂ’s an underdark campaign. Even getting places faster has its values when if you even have small things like down time. (It all adds up to more power)

Grab crossbow expert and resilient con and you and your simulacrum both riding Pegasi will likely out dpr the rest of your party.

6d10+12d12+30 isnÂ’t good enough for you, nothing else will be either. Mind that youÂ’re also likely out of reach. This is a no magical crossbow.

156 damage a round if you can hit with a non magical crossbow, and I donÂ’t think securing advantage would be too difficult when youÂ’re likely out maneuvering your enemies with ease anyways, that allows you to set up another layer of control at your leisure. Double that with a 2 level fighter dip for a nova that will make a paladin rogue blush. Can always just wall of force them inside with your spiritual weapon if they threaten your Pegasus, since SW doesnÂ’t take concentration, then you can simply fly out of range and wait while your weapon whittles them down.

And yes, coautl is easily the most broken creature for itÂ’s CR in the book. And can even take out certain cr20+ monsters without much hassle if they canÂ’t produce magical sources of damage. Though, once you have true polymorph you can just have an army of them around anyways.

Bards are very strong tiers 3-4.

Just ideas, you donÂ’t have to play like this, itÂ’s just very optimal imo and will make you the most dangerous open field combatant in the party IÂ’d wager. Even in a dungeon youÂ’re still dangerous, since you can just park the steed elsewhere and the other spells remain dangerous.

Also consider shapechange and true polymorph instead of wish, less powerful over all but the share spell with find steed you can have a cr17+3 gold shadow dragon around at the end game to fly around on instead of a cr9, do the same for your simulacrum amount as well, double dragon. Proceed to have books thrown at you.

XBE is not really a good choice imo for Lore Bard imo. It's 2 attacks per turn only and one takes bonus action, which is often very busy with Lore Bard. RES (CON) + 2 x CHA ASI and you can take on level 12 at earliest.

Besdies Greater Steed cannot attack unless it's independent. In which case it's DM who controls it and he can do things you wouldn't perfectly do (like Disengage action, attack actions, attacking same target as you like etc.). Per PHB:

"You can opt to leave it independent (and controlled by the DM) in which case it can attack, but may do things you don't expect."

So I don't think counting your steed as extra attacks is viable option here.

The best you can do with XBE + Tenser as Lore Bard (Let's say you took that Hexblade dip) is 3 x (1d6 + 2d12 + 5 + 6) which is 82,5 DPR.



I think you are better off with just 2 Hexblade dip which will give you AC, shield, Hex and Curse.

On level 17 + Crown of Stars + Curse + Hex you can deal already 4 x (1d10 + 5 + 6 + 1d6) + 4d12 + 6 + 1d6 damge for 120 DPR without even your steed attacking anything and you can take better feats like Inspiring Leader, Elemental Adept: Fire, Lucky etc. and spells like Crown of Stars or Reverse Gravity. You can also exchange Hex for strong concentration spell like Whirlwind, Greater Invisibility, having Coautl attacking with you, Hypnotic Pattern etc. Hell, even without Agonizing Blast it's 100 DPR.

Though if you are pure Lore Bard XBE might be valid to boost your DPR in late game since without Agonizing Blast Lore Bard has really nothing for sustain damage. It's viable strategy too but if someone is min-maxing lore bard - 2 levels of Hexblade are just too good to not take.

EDIT: Situation would change if you took Haste instead of Spiritual Weapon on level 6 and let your Simulacrum cast Haste on you. Then with XBE we look at 4 x (1d6 + 2d12 + 5 + 6) which is 110 DPR. Not bad. But if we take also Sharpshooter at another ASI at level 17 we could deal 150 DPR now.

Also I don't think you can change Steed into dragon. True Polymorph says "If you turn a creature into another kind of creature, the new form can be any kind you choose whose Challenge rating is equal or less". So I think this still stands even with shared spell effect. So TP would work for both of you but you would have to chose creature CR equal or less for your steed when you polymorph yourself.

[Contrast]

Besdies Greater Steed cannot attack unless it's independent. In which case it's DM who controls it and he can do things you wouldn't perfectly do (like Disengage action, attack actions, attacking same target as you like etc.).


The spell specifically calls out that you control the mount during combat. I think thats a pretty clear example of specific versus general personally.

[Alucard89]

The spell specifically calls out that you control the mount during combat. I think thats a pretty clear example of specific versus general personally.

No, no, no. Controlling you mount in combat is detailed in PHB and it's confirmed by JC here: https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/970111071955464198

"Find steed / find greater steed—when you ride the mount in combat, you decide whether it follows the rules for a controlled or an independent mount"

Greater steed falls under same rules as normal mount. You can control it in combat and therefore it can't do attack action or let it act as independent unit and then it can attack but it's controlled by DM. "Control mount during combat" is as simple as it is: it's controlled mount and controlled mount actions are detailed in PHB.

Remember, spells do only what they say they do. There are no secret rules. If there was some special method for controlling the steed, the spell would say so and detail how it worked.

So, the spell grants no special control method for summoned steeds.

There is also nothing in the description of find greater steed that has any friction or conflicts with the normal rules for mounted combat.

[Bobthewizard]

At level 6, conjure animals is my favorite if no one has it. I think it is the best 3rd level spell in the game, even if the DM controls the summons, unless they purposefully try to screw you.

If you have a druid that can cast conjure animals already, then crusader's mantle is a top choice for your magical secrets. Maybe a good choice any way. +1d4 damage to every attack can add up in the right party. It's insane with 8 velociraptors.

I agree with a lot of the other suggestions - counter spell, find greater steed and telekinesis, magic jar and simulacrum, wish and mass heal.

Fly is another one to consider if no one else has access to it. It's my favorite buff since it lets your melee characters fight flying creatures.

Note that I wouldn't take simulacrum and magic jar if I was starting at 18. They both are obsolete once you have wish.

[Alucard89]

At level 6, conjure animals is my favorite if no one has it. I think it is the best 3rd level spell in the game, even if the DM controls the summons, unless they purposefully try to screw you.

I love Conjure Animals, especially with Disonant Whispers combo, but I have couple issues with it:

1. They drag fights a lot and the more you upcast- the worse it gets as action economy almost always shows that more actions is better option.

2. They fall off later due to Animated Objects being de facto same spell with simillar DPR.

3. They fall off later again (smilliar to Animated Objects) because they lack magical damage and while their DPR is great, their damage per attack is low so cutting that in half really hurts.

4. They can be easly nuked by AOE effects and spells. You can counterspell enemy spells but vs AOE effects like Dragon Breath etc. they stand no chance.

So I would only take this spell if I knew 100% that campaign will end at around level 10.

If it goes level 12+ you have Animated Objects and 15+ magic resistance is very very common.

[diplomancer]

No, no, no. Controlling you mount in combat is detailed in PHB and it's confirmed by JC here: https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/970111071955464198

"Find steed / find greater steed—when you ride the mount in combat, you decide whether it follows the rules for a controlled or an independent mount"

Greater steed falls under same rules as normal mount. You can control it in combat and therefore it can't do attack action or let it act as independent unit and then it can attack but it's controlled by DM. "Control mount during combat" is as simple as it is: it's controlled mount and controlled mount actions are detailed in PHB.

Remember, spells do only what they say they do. There are no secret rules. If there was some special method for controlling the steed, the spell would say so and detail how it worked.

So, the spell grants no special control method for summoned steeds.

There is also nothing in the description of find greater steed that has any friction or conflicts with the normal rules for mounted combat.

The steed is exceptionally loyal and intelligent; even if it's technically controlled by the DM, DM had better have a very good reason for the steed not doing what you ask it too. Because of that, in practice, and since DMs have a lot on their plate already, they will even prefer to let you control it for expediency reasons, perhaps with a clause "I may overrule what you decide though".

You can't true polymorph your steed into a dragon, but you can true polymorph it into a dragon statue. And then the next day true polymorph the statue into a dragon. Now you have an exceptionally loyal dragon with whom you share spells and Telepathy. Have fun! Do it with your Simulacrum found steed as well!

Tenser + steed (saber tooth tiger) can easily be 6 attacks (use 2 short swords), all with 2d12 damage on top. Tenser + steed (dragon) is the sort of tier 4 silliness that characterizes D&D.

Incidentally, Tenser is a regular bard spell if your DM is using the Alternate Class features UA.

[Alucard89]

The steed is exceptionally loyal and intelligent; even if it's technically controlled by the DM, DM had better have a very good reason for the steed not doing what you ask it too. Because of that, in practice, and since DMs have a lot on their plate already, they will even prefer to let you control it for expediency reasons, perhaps with a clause "I may overrule what you decide though".

You can't true polymorph your steed into a dragon, but you can true polymorph it into a dragon statue. And then the next day true polymorph the statue into a dragon. Now you have an exceptionally loyal dragon with whom you share spells and Telepathy. Have fun! Do it with your Simulacrum found steed as well!

Tenser + steed (saber tooth tiger) can easily be 6 attacks (use 2 short swords), all with 2d12 damage on top. Tenser + steed (dragon) is the sort of tier 4 silliness that characterizes D&D.

Incidentally, Tenser is a regular bard spell if your DM is using the Alternate Class features UA.

You can't statue -> dragon. It still is restricted by CR of your steed.

[diplomancer]

You can't statue -> dragon. It still is restricted by CR of your steed.

Why? The only restriction is the size of the object, no mention of any CR. When you turn an object into a creature, you can turn it into any creature of CR up to 9.

[Alucard89]

Why? The only restriction is the size of the object, no mention of any CR. When you turn an object into a creature, you can turn it into any creature of CR up to 9.

Becasue that is loophole you propose here. Even if it's a statue it's still Steed. Besides why even change steed to statue then. Just take frog from the road and produce Ancient Brass Dragon later... CR is for a reason in this spells.

[diplomancer]

Becasue that is loophole you propose here. Even if it's a statue it's still Steed. Besides why even change steed to statue then. Just take frog from the road and produce Ancient Brass Dragon later... CR is for a reason in this spells.

If it's a frog from the road, it's not exceptionally loyal to you, it's basically a dragon, notoriously independent creatures, and you do not share spells or telepathy with it.

It works. You may say that DMs won't allow it, which is variable. But it works.

But that's just a bonus to the Find Greater Steed spell as a magical secret, definitely not the only reason to take it, let's not derail the thread over it. As I said, even as a saber tooth tiger, having possibly 3 attacks with extra 2d12 each is worth a LOT. Or a Rhino with 2 guaranteed very powerful attacks.

And that's the combo with Tenser's Transformation; even without it and no shenannigans at all, it's a free non-concentration, disengage/dash flying mount. Give it to your melee party member if you can't get a good use for it, he will love you for that. The extra damage he will be making for having better mobility will add up a lot over time.

[Alucard89]

If it's a frog from the road, it's not exceptionally loyal to you, it's basically a dragon, notoriously independent creatures, and you do not share spells or telepathy with it.

It works. You may say that DMs won't allow it, which is variable. But it works.

But that's just a bonus to the Find Greater Steed spell as a magical secret, definitely not the only reason to take it, let's not derail the thread over it. As I said, even as a saber tooth tiger, having possibly 3 attacks with extra 2d12 each is worth a LOT. Or a Rhino with 2 guaranteed very powerful attacks.

And that's the combo with Tenser's Transformation; even without it and no shenannigans at all, it's a free non-concentration, disengage/dash flying mount. Give it to your melee party member if you can't get a good use for it, he will love you for that. The extra damage he will be making for having better mobility will add up a lot over time.

Again, your steed can't attack unless it's controlled by DM. Then you are on mercy of DM what your steed will do. I can attack, or not, or attack something else. You don't know.

[diplomancer]

Again, your steed can't attack unless it's controlled by DM. Then you are on mercy of DM what your steed will do. I can attack, or not, or attack something else. You don't know.

And again, it's exceptionally loyal, and intelligent, and you can communicate telepathically with it. Which means that, barring exceptional circumstances, it will do what you ask (that's what "loyal" means).

The DM can ignore those parts of the spell, but he would be a bad DM. If DM says "yeah, he's going to ignore your requests because I don't like you", that's not a DM I'm playing with for long.

For what it's worth, here's what Crawford has to say about the steed following your commands when you are not controlling it directly:

https://mobile.twitter.com/Velocirainbow/status/755250607863263232

[Alucard89]

The DM can ignore those parts of the spell, but he would be a bad DM.

He can ignore, he can be good or bad DM, but RAW is that you don't control what Steed will do if you want it to attack. Hence why calculations of DPR for steed when it doesn't really need to attack or attack what you want or how you want is imo not good way to measure DPR.

DPR should be reliable 100% to calculate. Independent steed is not. That what I try to say.

[diplomancer]

He can ignore, he can be good or bad DM, but RAW is that you don't control what Steed will do if you want it to attack. Hence why calculations of DPR for steed when it doesn't really need to attack or attack what you want or how you want is imo not good way to measure DPR.

DPR should be reliable 100% to calculate. Independent steed is not. That what I try to say.

DM can give evasion to every creature, thus ruining AoE spells. That the DM CAN do something to nerf a spell does not mean that he WILL do it.

And you cited Jeremy Crawford before, who has stated that the Steed follows your commands to the best of its abilities. Those are the rules, DM is free to ignore them, but we shouldn't when discussing the effectiveness of a spell.

But we get it, you don't like Find Greater Steed. Fine. I will just leave here my experience that, when I was playing a Paladin, the very first thing the Wizard asked for when he got access to wish was a Greater Steed, and the Wizard was an Avariel. That's how awesome the spell is. That you don't see the advantages of very high mobility (and all the other awesome things a Bard can do with the sharing spells ability, not to mention True Polymorph) is not the fault of the spell.

[Alucard89]

DM can give evasion to every creature, thus ruining AoE spells. That the DM CAN do something to nerf a spell does not mean that he WILL do it.

And you cited Jeremy Crawford before, who has stated that the Steed follows your commands to the best of its abilities. Those are the rules, DM is free to ignore them, but we shouldn't when discussing the effectiveness of a spell.

But we get it, you don't like Find Greater Steed. Fine. I will just leave here my experience that, when I was playing a Paladin, the very first thing the Wizard asked for when he got access to wish was a Greater Steed, and the Wizard was an Avariel. That's how awesome the spell is. That you don't see the advantages of very high mobility (and all the other awesome things a Bard can do with the sharing spells ability, not to mention True Polymorph) is not the fault of the spell.

I am not saying I don't like it, I am saying that Tenser + Steed is not that optiumum choice due to mechanical way of how mounts are handled. My posts was specific about that combo not working as perfectly RAW-wise as many think. That's all. It's still a great spell and I said it at least 2 times in this thread.

[diplomancer]

I am not saying I don't like it, I am saying that Tenser + Steed is not that optiumum choice due to mechanical way of how mounts are handled. My posts was specific about that combo not working as perfectly RAW-wise as many think. That's all. It's still a great spell and I said it at least 2 times in this thread.

It works RAW-wise, unless your DM nerfs it by ignoring parts of the spell (the parts that says it's loyal, intelligent and can communicate with you, and so, according to Crawford at least, it will do what you ask of it, to the best of its abilities, barring exceptional circumstances)

Your argument is tantamount to saying that if I cast Dominate Person, the target fails, and I issue a verbal command "attack that creature" that the DM can have the target approach the creature and lightly flick its ears and say "hey, I'm attacking it". No, you are not obeying the command to the best of your ability.

[Alucard89]

Anyway, back to spell selection.

What about Spirit Guardians for non-melee caster like Lore Bard? Let's say we took Hexblade dip (1 level) to have medium armors, shield, Shield spell, AoA etc. Now on level 6 magic secrets we can get Spirit Guardians instead of for example Fireball. How viable it is for caster-type Lore Bard that stands back?

My pros and cons:

Pros: scales great, no Friendly Fire, AOE CC, radiant damage is much better than fire damage. Stays relevant in later Tiers.

Cons: concentration, while you have already tons of concentration spells. If you focus on SG as your main damage dealer in combat - you pretty much not use half of best Bard spells.

The other good thing is if you take Find Greater Steed you can fly over enemies (since SG is a sphere) and damage them every turn doing flyby. Or hover 15 feet above enemies since it's a sphere around you.

However, I wonder if it's viable option for Lore Bard since it's yet another concentration spell.

However, Spirit Guardians + Steel Wind strike can be great AOE option for caster-bard as it allows terrific AOE damage without hitting your friends. But Steel Wind Strike doesn't work with Greater Steed because it teleports you out of it.

[diplomancer]

Anyway, back to spell selection.

What about Spirit Guardians for non-melee caster like Lore Bard? Let's say we took Hexblade dip (1 level) to have medium armors, shield, Shield spell, AoA etc. Now on level 6 magic secrets we can get Spirit Guardians instead of for example Fireball. How viable it is for caster-type Lore Bard that stands back?

My pros and cons:

Pros: scales great, no Friendly Fire, AOE CC, radiant damage is much better than fire damage. Stays relevant in later Tiers.

Cons: concentration, while you have already tons of concentration spells. If you focus on SG as your main damage dealer in combat - you pretty much not use half of best Bard spells.

The other good thing is if you take Find Greater Steed you can fly over enemies (since SG is a sphere) and damage them every turn doing flyby. Or hover 15 feet above enemies since it's a sphere around you.

However, I wonder if it's viable option for Lore Bard since it's yet another concentration spell.

However, Spirit Guardians + Steel Wind strike can be great AOE option for caster-bard as it allows terrific AOE damage without hitting your friends. But Steel Wind Strike doesn't work with Greater Steed because it teleports you out of it.

Spirit Guardians is a good pick, but you've already noted it's main drawback. Steel Wind Strike, in the right circumstance, will be better than Synaptic Static, but it might easily be worse.

I don't think using a magical secret to have a maybe slightly better option in the right circumstances than your native bard spells is a good choice.

For what it's worth, here are my "white room suggestions".

6th- Tiny Servants and Counterspell. Honorable mention goes to Enlarge/Reduce, concentration, but you will use it out of combat many times. Tiny Servants is a fun spell on it's own, and if DM lets them use your magic stones that you got from the Hexblade dip, it's awesome. Fireball only if the campaign is not expected to go over 10th-11th*
10th- Find Greater Speed and Telekinesis. Honorable mention goes to transmute rock, very nice non-concentration control spell
14th- Simulacrum and Conjure Celestial. Tenser's is more fun than these, but not as powerful. Still honorable mention.
18th- Wish and Mass Heal. Honourable mention goes to Maze.

* which brings to another consideration. Some spells, like fireball, are awesome when you get them, but lose their steam later on. If campaign is expected to go to 20th, take that into account. I believe that consideration is especially true for level 6th picks, but it applies a bit also to level 10th.

[Benny89]

Greater Steed is too good to skip. Especially with Tenser Transformation. But if you want to go for maximum damage then on level 6 take Haste instead of fireball or take Haste + Spiritual Weapon/Fireball and skip Counterspell. Fireball is great but later you can Synaptic Static + I think your 3rd level slots are better to be used with Hypnotic Pattern instead in most scenarios.

Why is Steed and Tenser good?

Even if you don't take Crossbow Expert and equip hand crossbow and use spiritual weapon you can produce insanse amount of damage. I also suggest 1 level dip of Hexblade.

Your Simulacrum casts Haste on you and your Steed (Pegasus). You cast Spiritual Weapon and Tenser. You can cast Curse on boss too when you clean mooks.

What we get is 3x (1d6 + 2d12 + 5 + 5) + (2d8 + 5 + 5) + 2 x (2d6 + 2d12 + 4). That is 146 damage per round.

Now with XBE taken it's 154 damage per round. You save slot by not using Spiritual Weapon but you waste feat. So question is: could you get better feat instead?

What is nice about XBE however is that on level 16 you can take Sharpshooter and add another potential 40 damage to that combo. Also that bonus action attack also benefits from Tenser, while Spiritual Weapon does not. So in my opinion XBE on level 12 and then Tenser is best choice if you dip Hexblade.

So overall I think that TT, Steed, Sim, Haste, Curse is the best combo in Tier 3 and 4 you can get on Lore Bard. It would work better on Whisper though but I think Lore Bards are oveall better bards and extra magic secrets carry more on Tier 1 and 2.

[diplomancer]

Greater Steed is too good to skip. Especially with Tenser Transformation. But if you want to go for maximum damage then on level 6 take Haste instead of fireball or take Haste + Spiritual Weapon/Fireball and skip Counterspell. Fireball is great but later you can Synaptic Static + I think your 3rd level slots are better to be used with Hypnotic Pattern instead in most scenarios.

Why is Steed and Tenser good?

Even if you don't take Crossbow Expert and equip hand crossbow and use spiritual weapon you can produce insanse amount of damage. I also suggest 1 level dip of Hexblade.

Your Simulacrum casts Haste on you and your Steed (Pegasus). You cast Spiritual Weapon and Tenser. You can cast Curse on boss too when you clean mooks.

What we get is 3x (1d6 + 2d12 + 5 + 5) + (2d8 + 5 + 5) + 2 x (2d6 + 2d12 + 4). That is 146 damage per round.

Now with XBE taken it's 154 damage per round. You save slot by not using Spiritual Weapon but you waste feat. So question is: could you get better feat instead?

What is nice about XBE however is that on level 16 you can take Sharpshooter and add another potential 40 damage to that combo. Also that bonus action attack also benefits from Tenser, while Spiritual Weapon does not. So in my opinion XBE on level 12 and then Tenser is best choice if you dip Hexblade.

So overall I think that TT, Steed, Sim, Haste, Curse is the best combo in Tier 3 and 4 you can get on Lore Bard. It would work better on Whisper though but I think Lore Bards are oveall better bards and extra magic secrets carry more on Tier 1 and 2.

The spells your simulacrum casts that targets you do not get shared by you and your steed, only the spells you cast.

[Benny89]

The spells your simulacrum casts that targets you do not get shared by you and your steed, only the spells you cast.

Funny enough I did calculation correct cause I didn't count in Hasted steed extra attack only extra one from TT :). Funny. But yeah, you are right. It's only hasted attack for you sadly.

[Wizard_Lizard]

So for lore bard additonal magical secrets at fifth level, Definetly lightning Bolt and Counterspell.
If you ain't a lore bard, then take those two at tenth level. If you already took them then go with call lightning and Animate Dead.
At fourteenth level, go with Divine Word, and Delayed blast fireball
At eighteenth level, then you go with Shapechange andStorm of Vengeance

Picked pretty much all of them coz they are fun spells with nice flavour that I like. ALso a lot of versatility.

EDIT: these are only from the PHB, if from other sourcebooks, chuck a find greater steed as early as possible, dunno about the other spells.

[Benny89]

So for lore bard additonal magical secrets at fifth level, Definetly lightning Bolt and Counterspell.
If you ain't a lore bard, then take those two at tenth level. If you already took them then go with call lightning and Animate Dead.
At fourteenth level, go with Divine Word, and Delayed blast fireball
At eighteenth level, then you go with Shapechange andStorm of Vengeance

Picked pretty much all of them coz they are fun spells with nice flavour that I like. ALso a lot of versatility.

EDIT: these are only from the PHB, if from other sourcebooks, chuck a find greater steed as early as possible, dunno about the other spells.

I rarely see someone recommending Lightning Bolt vs Fireball. Any reasons why Bolt served you better?

[Hael]

Spirit Guardians is a good pick, but you've already noted it's main drawback. Steel Wind Strike, in the right circumstance, will be better than Synaptic Static, but it might easily be worse.


I don't think there is a world where I pick Fireball over SG. Yea it fights for your concentration, but who cares, it effectively solves an entire class of encounters.. The same sort of solution that fireball offers, just stronger with better scaling and more versatile (and useful in boss fights and in situations where the geometry is bad). It also allows you to solo an encounter if your barbarian dies. Imo its the strongest 3rd lvl spell in the game depending on how your DM deals with conjure animals.

[Benny89]

I don't think there is a world where I pick Fireball over SG. Yea it fights for your concentration, but who cares, it effectively solves an entire class of encounters.. The same sort of solution that fireball offers, just stronger with better scaling and more versatile (and useful in boss fights and in situations where the geometry is bad). It also allows you to solo an encounter if your barbarian dies. Imo its the strongest 3rd lvl spell in the game depending on how your DM deals with conjure animals.

I disagree with that as concentration is very very busy for Lore Bard. You can nuke one group of enemies with fireball while keeping Hypnotic Pattern on others. You can blast enemies with fireball while keeping bad guy inside Wall of Force etc. Circle of Power can turn whole encounter into joke if there are enemy casters. Haste on your Paladin or Barbarian can have more impact than one Spirit Guardians. You can Haste and still fireball or Lighting Bolt if that's what you like.

Spirit Guardians is awesome but is it really that good on Lore Bard? I could understand that on Valor Bard or Sword Bard.

In theory you can play with Hexblade dip with Blade Cantrips, CHA SAD Shield + Rapier + Spiritual Weapon and mimic clerics but I don't think you chose Bard to mimic clerics in majority of fights? There are tons of concentration spells that clerics don't have access to that can shape whole battlefield more than SG. I think Lore Bard should not focus on diving in melee with SG around them.

[Hael]

I disagree with that as concentration is very very busy for Lore Bard. You can nuke one group of enemies with fireball while keeping Hypnotic Pattern on others. You can blast enemies with fireball while keeping bad guy inside Wall of Force etc. Circle of Power can turn whole encounter into joke if there are enemy casters. Haste on your Paladin or Barbarian can have more impact than one Spirit Guardians. You can Haste and still fireball or Lighting Bolt if that's what you like.

Spirit Guardians is awesome but is it really that good on Lore Bard? I could understand that on Valor Bard or Sword Bard.


The only way I wouldnt take SG is if a cleric was in the party. My experience in 5e is that 'dead' is better than 'controlled', and while both can work b/c things are easy in this game, dead still wins out b/c you take less damage and spend less resources.. 80% of encounters are best solved that way, and SG is so strong that it trivializes entire ranges of encounters with very minimal use of resources.
Get caught in a room with 15 poisonous snakes (with more potentially coming out of the ceiling every round)? One cast and the problem dissappears.

In fact its really difficult to find many scenarios when your concentration is better used elsewhere in a pure dpr sense.. For instance, haste gives an extra attack. At what lvl does that barbarian or fighter attack out DPR SG.. Even against a single opponent (assuming standard upcasting by lvl) for only a minute, it seems to me that there won't be many class combos that can outright beat it until at least lvl8 or 9. (maybe a Zealot Barbarian with GWM? haven't done the math)

[Specter]

I've always enjoyed Ranger/Paladin spells; Aura of Vitality and Conjure Volley are megasteals.

[Eldariel]

I've always enjoyed Ranger/Paladin spells; Aura of Vitality and Conjure Volley are megasteals.

I'm not sure if Aura of Vitality is better than Healing Spirit even after the nerf? Healing Spirit takes movement from the ally/bonus action from you to move it (but not always) and caps at 6 uses (5 uses on the level where you get it probably) but upcast to 3rd level slot it still heals 2d6/ally/turn with a single bonus action and no additional actions required while Aura of Vitality takes a bonus action each round (but heals 20d6 overall vs. 10d6-12d6 of 3rd level Healing Spirit). Action economy wise Healing Spirit feels way better though I'll give you that Aura of Vitality has the higher slot efficiency (though it can't upcast; level 4 Healing Spirit already gives 18d6 over its duration and level 5 Healing spirit 24d6). Furthermore, Healing Spirit can be used to "burst heal" all allies in ~2 rounds for the full amount freeing up your Concentration for another spell afterwards.

[Benny89]

The only way I wouldnt take SG is if a cleric was in the party. My experience in 5e is that 'dead' is better than 'controlled', and while both can work b/c things are easy in this game, dead still wins out b/c you take less damage and spend less resources.. 80% of encounters are best solved that way, and SG is so strong that it trivializes entire ranges of encounters with very minimal use of resources.
Get caught in a room with 15 poisonous snakes (with more potentially coming out of the ceiling every round)? One cast and the problem dissappears.

In fact its really difficult to find many scenarios when your concentration is better used elsewhere in a pure dpr sense.. For instance, haste gives an extra attack. At what lvl does that barbarian or fighter attack out DPR SG.. Even against a single opponent (assuming standard upcasting by lvl) for only a minute, it seems to me that there won't be many class combos that can outright beat it until at least lvl8 or 9. (maybe a Zealot Barbarian with GWM? haven't done the math)

Actually just simple Barbarian with GWM, 18 STR and Reckless Attack having haste on him will deal vs AC 17 enemy on average 38 damage per turn, while Spirit Guardians will deal 13,5 on failed save on average and 6,75 on success. So here is an example that Haste on your barbarian will deal more damage. You would have to deal damage (on failed save) to 3 enemies to out DPR Hasted GWM Barbarian, but he will kill faster single targets while you damage multiple one. Zealot would deal 43 damage per turn with just GWM and Haste. PAM GWM Haste Zealo would deal at this level 50 damage.

Not saying SG is not powerful, but don't underestimate Hasted melee character. SG damage is guarantee, but at level 5 it's not really that impressive damage. It's great after 3 rounds (dealing around 40 damage if all saves failed, but average around 26 in real gameplay especially at lower levels where you DC is only 14-15) but it's not "insta-win" button like you say.

I also disagree with you saying that damage is always better. SG is not nuke spell, its damage per round spell. I could see you saying - it's better to insta-kill group of enemies than control them but SG are not doing that.

Well placed Hypnotic Pattern will disable at least half enemies for example. That is half-enemies not attacking your team, cutting damage from whole enemy group by 50%. Your team can then focus on non-affected ones (fighting de facto half of the encounter) while after that they can gank every single charmed enemy one by one, trivializing whole encounter. SG would kill them after some time, but they don't prevent enemies from dealing damage etc.

Same is with Wall of Force, Telekinesis or Banishment. Closing insde it enemy boss while you and rest of the party clean up all mooks will prevent more damage and make whole encounter easier. Or splitting encounter in two, cutting it's challange rating by half.

Not to mention being in front with SG means you will take more punishment, take more hits and therefore - roll more for concentration. It's worth to consider that too. Especially at levels 5-8.

[Corran]

I rarely see someone recommending Lightning Bolt vs Fireball. Any reasons why Bolt served you better?
One reason could be if you are fighting huge (or larger) creatures (eg giants) often and in numbers. Cause due to the size the enemies, you will probably use a line spell more effectively than a circle/sphere (especially if we are talking about spells with friendly fire).

[Benny89]

One reason could be if you are fighting huge (or larger) creatures (eg giants) often and in numbers. Cause due to the size the enemies, you will probably use a line spell more effectively than a circle/sphere (especially if we are talking about spells with friendly fire).

I also wonder if Lighting Bolt wouldn't be better choice if you plan to take Greater Steed. One of the reasons people prefer FB over LB is that FB AOE is easier to land for maxiumum enemies hit while for LB you have to position yourself well to be able to strike several enemies in line.

With Steed however (90ft fly, 180 ft dash) it's very easy to fly from one side of encounter to another and line your Lighting Bold to hit as many enemies as possible.

Also lighting damage is way better at higher tiers where fire resistance is really common.

[Bobthewizard]

Actually just simple Barbarian with GWM, 18 STR and Reckless Attack having haste on him will deal vs AC 17 enemy on average 38 damage per turn, while Spirit Guardians will deal 13,5 on failed save on average and 6,75 on success. So here is an example that Haste on your barbarian will deal more damage. You would have to deal damage (on failed save) to 3 enemies to out DPR Hasted GWM Barbarian

That's not quite a fair comparison. You should only count the hasted attack when comparing to SG, not the whole round of barbarian attacks. If the bard casts SG, the barbarian still gets its 2-3 attacks, just not the extra hasted one.

I agree with the rest of your post though.

[Ashrym]

um, but Synaptic Static is on bard spell list....

I often use magical for spells on the bard list. There are a lot of good spells on the list and the 16 spells known outside of secrets doesn't really cover them all over 9 spell levels.

Ignoring spells on the bard list at 10th level when most colleges get their first secrets would lock out useful spells.

The idea is to pick good spells. There's no point in ignoring bard spells that are also good just because the selection isn't restricted to bard spells.

[Wizard_Lizard]

I rarely see someone recommending Lightning Bolt vs Fireball. Any reasons why Bolt served you better?

Lightning Bolt is more accurate. Well easier to aim anyway, with potentially less collateral damage. I think a lot of people forget HOW BIG fireball's blast radius is. Most rooms in the DMG auto dungeon generator thing would be completely filled with explosion. And getting hit with that... or hitting your party with that... is less than ideal. Both are good. I just like lightning bolt better. Also I like the idea of shooting lightning more than explosion.

[Specter]

I'm not sure if Aura of Vitality is better than Healing Spirit even after the nerf? Healing Spirit takes movement from the ally/bonus action from you to move it (but not always) and caps at 6 uses (5 uses on the level where you get it probably) but upcast to 3rd level slot it still heals 2d6/ally/turn with a single bonus action and no additional actions required while Aura of Vitality takes a bonus action each round (but heals 20d6 overall vs. 10d6-12d6 of 3rd level Healing Spirit). Action economy wise Healing Spirit feels way better though I'll give you that Aura of Vitality has the higher slot efficiency (though it can't upcast; level 4 Healing Spirit already gives 18d6 over its duration and level 5 Healing spirit 24d6). Furthermore, Healing Spirit can be used to "burst heal" all allies in ~2 rounds for the full amount freeing up your Concentration for another spell afterwards.

I totally forgot about HS, but that's probably because I don't allow it in my home games.

[Benny89]

Lightning Bolt is more accurate. Well easier to aim anyway, with potentially less collateral damage. I think a lot of people forget HOW BIG fireball's blast radius is. Most rooms in the DMG auto dungeon generator thing would be completely filled with explosion. And getting hit with that... or hitting your party with that... is less than ideal. Both are good. I just like lightning bolt better. Also I like the idea of shooting lightning more than explosion.

Hm, I can see how Lighting Bolt is more accurate and has less FF risk. But at the same time Fireball is sphere damage. Funny enough - there are less lighting immune enemies than fire but there are more lighting-resist enemies than fire: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1X70jdBX0X0n_5V7stc1_kYERXLNGJIbdjhl3BUbKxQI/edit#gid=0

I think if we have access to good mobility around battlefield - Lighting bolt can serve for longer time as valid option than fireball.

[Dudu]

Prime picks are:

Lvl 6:
Counterspell - one of the most gamechanging arcane spell in this edition

Spirit Guardians - the reason clerics have "horde killing" as one of their specialities. Requires Concentration, which is a big tax for the concentration heavy bard.

Aura of Vitality - great healing per spellslot and usage of action. If you dip into Life cleric, it gets much better. Also requires concentration.


Lvl 10:
Find Greater Steed - a flying mount could as well break the game. But you can always pick a flavourful one anyway. Did a valour bard riding a rhino once and it was great fun.

Passwall - can be a bit broken if the DM allows it to creat pits.

Wall of Force - perhaps the best wall. Concentration though.

Destruction Wave - a lot of good type damage with some minor BF control attached

Commune - crazy good if your DM handles Divination well. It's a ritual.

Swift Quiver - amazing for ranged bards

[Corran]

I also wonder if Lighting Bolt wouldn't be better choice if you plan to take Greater Steed. One of the reasons people prefer FB over LB is that FB AOE is easier to land for maxiumum enemies hit while for LB you have to position yourself well to be able to strike several enemies in line.

With Steed however (90ft fly, 180 ft dash) it's very easy to fly from one side of encounter to another and line your Lighting Bold to hit as many enemies as possible.

Also lighting damage is way better at higher tiers where fire resistance is really common.
tl;dr: A good movement speed can be helpful, but I don't see it being key to making good use of line spells. In other words, it will help, but it wont be enough most of the time. You need more things going your way to justify picking line damage AoE's instead of cubes/circles or even cones.

Well, a good movement speed could help, but when it comes to line spells I think that catching enough enemies within the same line is not that much dependent on where you'll launch the spell from, as it is on whether there will be simply enough enemies (at least to justify the spell slot) positioned in a straight line (regardless of your own square that is). So I am thinking I either need a way of positioning them as I'd want (eg scatter, although using a scatter just to set up a lightning bolt is not going to be worth it; or whirlwind, assuming flying speed -and quickened spell- and a favorable DM ruling regarding the line AoE, though due to the number of saves this will be far worse in practice than in paper, and you still need a good number of foes anyway). Or you just need a large number of enemies that are spread out enough, or a decent number of enemies of huge or bigger size (which made me circle all the way back to what I was saying).

[Benny89]

I was thinking little bit more about level 6 picks.

So my personal picks would probably be:

6 - Counterspell (duh..), Erupting Earth.

Why Erupting Earh and not fireball? Well, at level 3 slot it might be weaker than fireball (19,5 vs 28 damage) but when I pick magic secrets I tend to look long-term more than short term. For Wizard for example fireball is better spell to get. Why? Because he can swap it later to something else. But Lore Bard needs to get MS that will stay relevant also at higher Tiers.

Problem with fireball is that damage and damage type doesn't scale well. There are tons of monster immune or resistant to fire damage at higher tiers and it's not always easy to place fireball and avoid FF.

Erupthing Earth is also DEX save, is also 120 feet range, but it's a cube which is easier to place and control over fireball shpere when it comes to Friendly Fire and it's magical bludgeoning damage vs fire. To comapre: nothing is immune to bludgeoning and there are only 8 monsters resistant to it. Better - 4 monsters are vulnerable to it (not much, but always something).

Besides it scales better with levels. Erupting Earth casted from level 5 slot will deal av. 32,5 damage vs 35 fireball. Erupting Earth casted from level 7 slot will deal 45,5 and fireball 42 damage. So the higher we go with slots -the better Erupting Earth damage is for AOE. And NOTHING will be immune to it and almost nothing is resisting it. It scales better than fireball making it relevant for all tiers of gameplay. It also creates difficult terrain which can prevent/slow enemies from manouvering/escaping and is has great utility value when fighting in close quarters/doorways/bridges/tunnels etc. It's also worth to upcast as it's damage type and damage stays unique and very strong. One can say that you have better things to cast at level 5 and 6 but that is not true if what you want is AOE unresisted damage. It's not worth to cast 3rd level (even 4th) fireball on higher tierd so you would have to upcast that anyway. But damage type matters.

It's smaller radius than FB but unless your team likes to scatter during combat a lot - it should not be that big of a problem to nail most of enemy melee forces.

[Eldariel]

Why Erupting Earh and not fireball? Well, at level 3 slot it might be weaker than fireball (19,5 vs 28 damage) but when I pick magic secrets I tend to look long-term more than short term. For Wizard for example fireball is better spell to get. Why? Because he can swap it later to something else. But Lore Bard needs to get MS that will stay relevant also at higher Tiers.

Problem with fireball is that damage and damage type doesn't scale well. There are tons of monster immune or resistant to fire damage at higher tiers and it's not always easy to place fireball and avoid FF.

Erupthing Earth is also DEX save, is also 120 feet range, but it's a cube which is easier to place and control over fireball shpere when it comes to Friendly Fire and it's magical bludgeoning damage vs fire. To comapre: nothing is immune to bludgeoning and there are only 8 monsters resistant to it. Better - 4 monsters are vulnerable to it (not much, but always something).

Besides it scales better with levels. Erupting Earth casted from level 5 slot will deal av. 32,5 damage vs 35 fireball. Erupting Earth casted from level 7 slot will deal 45,5 and fireball 42 damage. So the higher we go with slots -the better Erupting Earth damage is for AOE. And NOTHING will be immune to it and almost nothing is resisting it. It scales better than fireball making it relevant for all tiers of gameplay. It also creates difficult terrain which can prevent/slow enemies from manouvering/escaping and is has great utility value when fighting in close quarters/doorways/bridges/tunnels etc. It's also worth to upcast as it's damage type and damage stays unique and very strong. One can say that you have better things to cast at level 5 and 6 but that is not true if what you want is AOE unresisted damage. It's not worth to cast 3rd level (even 4th) fireball on higher tierd so you would have to upcast that anyway. But damage type matters.

It's smaller radius than FB but unless your team likes to scatter during combat a lot - it should not be that big of a problem to nail most of enemy melee forces.

The problem with this is, practically speaking you don't want to be using your higher level slots for Fireball or Erupting Earth. I generally don't pick either. You have better things to do with your level 3 slots, especially when you get them a level late. On level 5 slots, it's competing with Animate Objects, Synaptic Static and its ilk. It's rare enough that you should want to blast with a level 5 slot for 32,5 instead of just firing off a Synaptic Static that's Int-save vs. 28 Psychic damage and a very powerful rider. When you're casting these 5th level damage spells, you aren't killing anyone with them so you want to at least get something outta the deal and Synaptic Static gives you that. Yes, Bludgeoning is slightly less resisted/immunitized than Psychic but practically speaking when you're dealing with an opponent you must defeat, Psychic is going to work.

In short, upcasting 3rd level damage spells is rarely enough worth it so picking Erupting Earth for upcasting purposes just is very niche use of a very limited resource. I had a friend actually try just that a campaign ago and boy was he regretting his decision by the end of it all (the game went to Tier 4). Erupting Earth is just a bad spell that you should almost never be cast and I'd argue it's certainly not a good use of a precious spell known and a Magical Secret on top of it over Animate Dead/Conjure Animals/Haste/Healing Spirit/whatever. Yeah, it doesn't have Concentration but that doesn't excuse everything.

[Benny89]

The problem with this is, practically speaking you don't want to be using your higher level slots for Fireball or Erupting Earth. I generally don't pick either. You have better things to do with your level 3 slots, especially when you get them a level late. On level 5 slots, it's competing with Animate Objects, Synaptic Static and its ilk. It's rare enough that you should want to blast with a level 5 slot for 32,5 instead of just firing off a Synaptic Static that's Int-save vs. 28 Psychic damage and a very powerful rider. When you're casting these 5th level damage spells, you aren't killing anyone with them so you want to at least get something outta the deal and Synaptic Static gives you that. Yes, Bludgeoning is slightly less resisted/immunitized than Psychic but practically speaking when you're dealing with an opponent you must defeat, Psychic is going to work.

In short, upcasting 3rd level damage spells is rarely enough worth it so picking Erupting Earth for upcasting purposes just is very niche use of a very limited resource. I had a friend actually try just that a campaign ago and boy was he regretting his decision by the end of it all (the game went to Tier 4). Erupting Earth is just a bad spell that you should almost never be cast and I'd argue it's certainly not a good use of a precious spell known and a Magical Secret on top of it over Animate Dead/Conjure Animals/Haste/Healing Spirit/whatever. Yeah, it doesn't have Concentration but that doesn't excuse everything.

Valid points, however I don't think spells you mentioned aren't good alternatives. Animate Dead is very party-depending. If you have Devotion/Crown, even Vengeance Paladin + any good-god cleric or Druid (or any good character) you may simply not be able to run around with undeads without making your team hostile to you or your minions. Animate Dead is great spell, but it's very party dependend, not to mention - setting dependend. For example I right now play Greyhawk setting where having an undead under your command makes most forces you meet hostile at sight and you'd been wanted in most states/countries.

Conjure Animals - it's great spell, but it doesn't scale well due to lack of magical damage, you having Animated Objects later and it eats your concentration again. Haste is the same problem - its eats your concentration for one-person buff while you could debuff whole group of enemies or debuff one high-threat target. Healing Spirit is great, but if you have healer and paladin in your team - it's not really that great or needed. It's only good if you lack healing in your party and it's only good as between combat healing. In combat Healing Aura would be in my opinion better choice than that.

Actually I think the best alternative choices for me on level 6 would be:

1. Pass Without Trace - if you don't have Ranger or Druid in team this is huge spell. +10 to Stealth even on heavy armored friend with 12 DEX is +11 to roll on disadvantage. That means your friend has 0.640 chance of rolling at least 5 which gives him 16 stealth roll, which is really really good. Also if you don't have Rogue in your party and you take Expertise in Stealth as Lore Bard, that means that when you party really needs you sneak onto/into something - you have Enchanced Ability + Pass Without Trace + Expertise, which on level 5 with 16 DEX gives you advantage and +19 to stealth/hide roll, which means that even with 1 roll you will have 20 at minimum. You can scount ahead whole enemy fortress with that and nobody will see you

2. Spiritual Weapon - uses bonus action and scales ok. Gets bonus damage from HEX and Curse if you dipped Hexblade. No concentration. CONS: uses Bonus Action which you will later replace probably by Bigby's Hand or by XBE feat to combo with Tenser and Greater Steed.

3. Revivify - only good if you have no cleric. If you have cleric or if you have both cleric and paladin - useless.

4. Slow - not best choice imo but good alternative to Hypnotic Pattern if you face enemies immune to charm (like undeads).

[diplomancer]

Yes, if you don't have a druid, ranger, shadow monk or trickery cleric in the party, pass without trace becomes a top pick. It will probably be more useful even than counterspell, unless you are in a very caster-heavy campaign.

[Alucard89]

Conjure Animals + Counterspell is still very potent pick. Only if DM allows you to chose creatures (most do, cause it makes everything easier and faster), if not - don't bother.

But Conjure Animals vs Animate Objects is not even fair:

CA from 5th slot is 18 CR 1/4 Creatures.

That is 18x Velociraptors, each doing 2 x (1d6 + 1d4 + 4) with advanage. That is 36 x 10 = 360 damage. They have +4 to hit. With advantage I think it would be +9 on average?

Animate Objects deal only 10 x (1d4 + 4) with +8 to hit. That is 65 damage.

Not to mention that there are only 2 things that can really counter your summoned animals:

1. Spells like AOE Fear/Fireball etc.
2. AOE attacks like Dragon Breath.

As Lore Bard you can deal with spells with Counterspell. They won't fireball your Animals. AOE attacks are more tricky but I don't think there is one that can hit in 360 degree surrounded by Velociraptors?

Even when fighting a creature that has resistance to non-magical damage - you can deal 180 dmg. Hell, even half of that = 90 damage is still more than AO can deal from 5th slot.

Now, combine that with Dissonant Whispers to force OAs from all Velociraptors/Wolfs - another round of damage.

[Lyracian]

As others have mentioned secrets let you fit gaps in the party depending on which other classes are present. My short list of options


MS6:
Counter spell - One of my auto picks (along with Wish and a flying mount)
Conjure Animals - Minions; even if they can become less useful at higher levels I do like this spell
Fireball - Straight Damage if you need it
Spiritual Weapon - No concentration and use of Bonus actions for extra damage

MS10:
Find Greater Steed - Rule of cool for me! Got to go with the flying mount. May trade this out once I have wish.
Wall of Force - It is a great wall
Transmute Rock - Restrains large amount of creatures while still leaving them targets for others.

MS14:
Contingency - Gives you options that you cannot get any other way
Heal - Good if you need a little extra healing in the party
Wind Walk - I love this spell; probably not worth taking unless you have a lot of travel needs though.
Reverse Gravity - AoE for dealing with mobs.

MS18:
Wish, Mass Heal - Take the best spell from Wizard and Cleric to give you options.
Maze - If you want a level 8 spell to go with Wish.

[Alucard89]

Healing spirit is also very strong spell, but it depends a lot on fights difficulty. If party finds themselfs constantly beaten after each encounter - Healing Spirit can top their HP between fights.

To compare - if we place Healing Spirit to affect 4 allies we can heal them 10d6 per person, extra d6 per spell level.

Mass Heal is 700 HP to distribute on allies around you.

Healing spirit casted from level 7 slots is 60d6 per person, 240d6 per 4 people. Total of 840 healing.

Healing spirit casted from level 6 slot is 50d6 per sperson, 200d6 per 4 people. Total of 700 Healing.

So if you can affect at least 4 allies with Healing Spirit - 6th slot HS has the same amount of healing as level 9 Mass Heal.

It all depend on part composition:

If you don't have Druid/Ranger (even if you have Cleric and Paladin) - Healing Spirit is best off-combat healing still. Because everything Clerics or Paladins have don't compare to Healing Spirit casted from even level 3 slot - 20d6 per person is average 70 healing. That is almost full HP of 16 CON level 8 Fighter (76 HP). That is multi-target Heal spell off-combat. It's still worth to take imo.

So if you lack Druid/Ranger and Wizard/Sorc I would consider also on level 6 taking Healing Spirit and Counterspell.

If you have Wizard/Sorc in pary I would consider Healing Spirit and Pass Without Trace as ultimate off-combat spells to make you the best Jack-of-all-Trades.

BTW. Thanks all for contributing to thread so far, lots of valid ideas and points!!

[DrKerosene]

To compare - if we place Healing Spirit to affect 4 allies we can heal them 10d6 per person, extra d6 per spell level.

I believe the latest Sage Advice Compendium has nerfed Healing Spirit to a base of 1+(Modifier)d6 healing per spell slot (so that’s up to 6d6 divided as you want, not per person).

Upcasting it to 9th level results in 8d6 healing. Not so amazing.

It’s a middle-ground between the speed of (Mass) Cure Wounds and Prayer Of Healing/Catnap. With similar utility as Healing Word.

[Alucard89]

I believe the latest Sage Advice Compendium has nerfed Healing Spirit to a base of 1+(Modifier)d6 healing per spell slot (so that’s up to 6d6 divided as you want, not per person).

Upcasting it to 9th level results in 8d6 healing. Not so amazing.

It’s a middle-ground between the speed of (Mass) Cure Wounds and Prayer Of Healing/Catnap. With similar utility as Healing Word.

Well, mine DM and most DMs I know are not DnD religious followers and they GM many, many systems so they just use what it in the books. They don't sit every week and check for every system they have books for if there are erratas, new printings etc. Whats in the books - that's in the books.

This is not video game where you are informed there was a patch and you have patch notes and changes implemented.

So Healing Spirit for most will still be super strong as I don't know many people (I only know one, me) who follow erratas or even know Sage Advice exists.

So Healing Spirit in books is still strong and worth to take if your DM runs 5e by the books content. As I said it's not a video game with patches.

[Lyracian]

Healing spirit is also very strong spell, but it depends a lot on fights difficulty. If party finds themselfs constantly beaten after each encounter - Healing Spirit can top their HP between fights.

Looks like you missed last months errata as mentioned by DrKerosene https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/XGtE-Errata.pdf



Healing spirit casted from level 6 slot is 50d6 per sperson, 200d6 per 4 people. Total of 700 Healing.

With a 20 Charisma you are getting six heals.

Heal Spell (level 6)
Heals 70 HP;Single target; one action; no concentration; single round

Mass Cure Wounds (Level 6)
Heals 23 (8-29) x6 = ~138 HP; Must be six targets otherwise less healing; action; single round

Healing Spirit (Level 6) = 5d6 x 6 = 30 dice
Heals ~105 (30-180) HP; can be several targets; bonus action; concentration; takes several rounds

Spirit will give us about 50% more healing than Heal and comparable to Mass Heal if not everyone is injured. We can be spread across several targets or heal only one. Much better out of combat but concentration will be the issue if we try and use it in combat. You might be able to get away with a 2-3 round break between waves in combat to pump it out.


BTW. Thanks all for contributing to thread so far, lots of valid ideas and points!!
I am enjoy this too. Had removing Healing Spirit when I saw the errata but looking at the numbers I think it will go back on my short list next to Heal depending on what sort of healing you are needing.


But Conjure Animals vs Animate Objects is not even fair:
That is 18x Velociraptors, each doing 2 x (1d6 + 1d4 + 4) with advanage. That is 36 x 10 = 360 damage. They have +4 to hit. With advantage I think it would be +9 on average?

Animate Objects deal only 10 x (1d4 + 4) with +8 to hit. That is 65 damage.

I think you have doubled the raptor damage? They do have two attacks but they are only dealing 10 damage average with both attacks not with each attack.
16 Raptors x 10 = 160 Damage. Also advantage is not a flat +5. The higher AC of the opponent the less effective it becomes.

Against AC 19 Raptors are still hitting 51% of attacks which puts them on par with Animate Objects.

[Alucard89]

Looks like you missed last months errata as mentioned by DrKerosene https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/XGtE-Errata.pdf

I didn't but as I mentioned above - I don't know any DM I know (and I know few, right now playing 4 campaigns online) who use erratas or even know about them. They bought books few years ago and they use what's in the books. That's all. As with every other system they bought books for.

So Healing Spirit being awesome or not depends on your DM, if he checks for some online updates for his books or he/she just bought it and runs them using content in books. So I wouldn't count out healing spirit.

For example every single campaign I played still use standard pre-errata Disintegration wording because nobody knows it was changed. Why should they? They bought books- they run what's in them. Only I know about them but that is because I DM and played Adventures League so I had to know about them.




I think you have doubled the raptor damage? They do have two attacks but they are only dealing 10 damage average with both attacks not with each attack.
16 Raptors x 10 = 160 Damage. Also advantage is not a flat +5. The higher AC of the opponent the less effective it becomes.

Against AC 19 Raptors are still hitting 51% of attacks which puts them on par with Animate Objects.

Aaah, correct! You are right :). Still 160 damage is a lot.

Now if we use Dissonant Whispers and provoke OAs from each raptor that again a tons of extra damage.

But you are right that I misscalculated damage. That's what you get for writing posts at 4:00 am :D

[Aaron Underhand]

Spiritual Weapon is my strong contender vs fireball for Hexbard due to synergy. Hex + 4th level Spiritual Weapon + Curse + 11th level Agonizing Blast is 3 x (1d10 + 5 + 1d6 + 4) + 2d8 + 1d6 + 4, which gives strong 66 DPR without Conentration so you can still drop that Hypnotic Pattern on enemies or enchance ability on yourself to counterspell that enemy caster with advantage etc.


Definitely a great spell, but not on my list in this case. As a hexbard you are getting this at 8th level, adding 16.5 DPR with a fourth level slot and soaking bonus actions. Rather than the hex and SW upcast I would probably look to Polymorph a party member. Also I see a major limitation here. This needs a three round setup with bonus actions to get spiritual weapon with hexcurse and Hex spell active, and you'll need that bonus action to move the Hex when the first target drops, losing a turn of Spiritual Weapon damage. Let's say first round is SW+AB => 47.5 points, second round you add add hex, no SW attack for 42, third round add hexblade curse, no SW attack for 54. Lets try another order.... First round Hexblade curse+AB for 43.5, second round add hex for 54, so it is not until round 3 you are casting that SW - do you really want to spend a 4th level slot at this stage for 16.5 additional damage a turn?


PS note that in your calculation the Hex will require your concentration.

[Lyracian]

I didn't but as I mentioned above - I don't know any DM I know (and I know few, right now playing 4 campaigns online) who use erratas or even know about them. They bought books few years ago and they use what's in the books. That's all. As with every other system they bought books for.

Looks like I was writing my response to the previous post as you did your and they crossed over.

Most of the groups I play with had either banned Healing Spirit or were using the suggested erratta from before this update came out.

Whether you, or your group, know about the errata does not really matter when you are asking for best options in the game on an online forum. You should expect people to be aware of any changes and accept they are trying to be helpful in pointing them out to you. Your friends may have purchased older editions but it is now part of the new text in printed books and, for those that use DND Beyond, part of online material.

If any of them buy the new printing they may notice the difference. Just like the latest PHB errata lets Arcane Tricksters replace their level 3 any school spell with another any school spell their will be some people not aware of the change. New people that join may bring new editions of the books. If noone else in your groups knows about errata then you might want to be helpful to them and let them know? As someone who loves playing Rogues I was very happy to see the latest PHB changes.

[Alucard89]

Looks like I was writing my response to the previous post as you did your and they crossed over.

Most of the groups I play with had either banned Healing Spirit or were using the suggested erratta from before this update came out.

Whether you, or your group, know about the errata does not really matter when you are asking for best options in the game on an online forum. You should expect people to be aware of any changes and accept they are trying to be helpful in pointing them out to you. Your friends may have purchased older editions but it is now part of the new text in printed books and, for those that use DND Beyond, part of online material.

If any of them buy the new printing they may notice the difference. Just like the latest PHB errata lets Arcane Tricksters replace their level 3 any school spell with another any school spell their will be some people not aware of the change. New people that join may bring new editions of the books. If noone else in your groups knows about errata then you might want to be helpful to them and let them know? As someone who loves playing Rogues I was very happy to see the latest PHB changes.

I have a rule - I don't rule lawyer on not-my-games (where I don't DM). If DMs use first printings - I go with it. Small differences in printings don't justify me being "that guy". Besides - I trust DMs judgements. If they would like to change something cause in their opinion it's bad (one way or the other) they would do it without errata. If they don't and don't care - so do I. Less talk about rules at table the better in my opinion.

Back to the topic- Another intersting pick is Destructive Wave. It was very good pick but question - is it still worth now that Bards have Synaptic Static?

Because our top choices on level 10:

1. Wall of Force - hard to not take this spell. Ultimate (at this level) CC spell, defense spell, utility spell. Split encounters, stop enemy forces in tunnels/doors, close boss inside it, use it as defense for party, build bridge etc.

2. Find Greater Steed - Well, it's flying mount.

3. Destructive Wave - great AOE spell, since it doesn't have Friendly Fire. However - it's CON save, so most common save among enemies and it rivals with Synaptic Static as 5th level AOE damage spell. It deals more damage than SS, but SS has better type (psychic) and has very good rider that gimps enemy attacks, checks and concentration saves.

4. Bigby’s Hand - Great bonus action control + damage, force damage type. But concentration.

5. Telekinesis - so goood for Lore Bard with Cutting Words, Pearless Skill and Gibness. And Sim + Hex.

6. Circle of Power - situational but extremely strong. If your campaign has a lot of casters this is the way. If you only meet them from time to time during your encounters in numbers of 1 or 2 - counterspell is enough to handle it most of the time.