What Races/Subraces would be there in "The Beginning"

[Luccan]

So, I'm working on a setting that's fairly pre-historic to most: humanoids (and other "PC races") are near the bottom of the totem pole because Giants and Dragons are still carving out their kingdoms. Except for those particularly favored by either group, the races available to the PCs won't have things like writing or metallurgy immediately available. I want to offer at least one subrace for each of the core races and because of some other parts of the premise, the only non-magic subsystem that's going to be available is Incarnum, mostly through the Totemist. This whole thing sprung out of the idea of restricting classes to those that are innately Illiterate.

Anyway. I've already decided drow and duergar and the like don't exist in the setting, those kinds of splits haven't happened yet. But I want to hammer out what would exist. As I said, I want each of the core races to have at least one subrace present, but it doesn't have to be the default one (for instance, I'm considering having Wild and/or Wood Elves instead of High Elves). And at least one or two incarnum races will be present since Incarnum will be used. Taking all that into account, what races/subraces, of reasonable LA, do you think would exist in this "beginning of the world" scenario?

[Endarire]

What is your overall goal with this?

[Luccan]

What is your overall goal with this?

I'm trying to avoid "play literally anything". I find when I do that with a 3.5 setting, with its many available races and subraces, I can't actually cover every race in a way that feels satisfying. Thus, I'm looking for advice on what people on the forum think make sense to include beyond that which I've already listed. Arguments for keeping it that simple will also be hear, but it's very possible there's something that, lorewise, would be odd to leave out from a game taking place so neat the dawn of a D&D setting

[Nifft]

No Elves - they haven't split from their Fey ancestors yet. Instead, you have Dusklings (from MoI), which are Fey that have just begun to acclimate to this strange new "Material Plane" place.

No Dwarves - they're fresh off the forge, and they haven't cooled yet. Trim down the stat bonus on Azer (and the racial HD, and the LA) and use them instead.

Illumians might be interesting, as a sort of "in the beginning was the WORD and that's me".

Genasi might be interesting, with an alternative take -- humans are still in the prototype stage, these are all our current best results, kick the tires and let us know how they perform. Planetouched in general might fill this role, if you want to present it like that.

Reptilian races might be more common? Or maybe it's an ice age and they're all hibernating? Dunno.

[hamishspence]

Given "Giants and Dragons carving out kingdoms" I'm guessing it's set in Faerun.

As such, if you want to include Wild Elves but exclude High Elves, it needs to be set after -27000 DR & before -25400 DR.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/High_elf

If you're not using Faerun, but Greyhawk (or a homebrew setting) it may work differently.

For dwarves - Mountain Dwarves AKA Shield Dwarves are the oldest subrace.

For humans - maybe just use Azurin, and take the approach that modern humans are descended from Azurin, having lost their affinity with Incarnum over the millennia?

Mountain Orcs should probably replace Half-Orcs, if you're taking the proposed approach that humans haven't evolved yet (since half orcs are half orc, half regular human).

For halflings - since they haven't yet had the Hin Ghostwars

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Halfling

The original homeland of halflings is uncertain, though it may have been within the area south of the Shaar and few were seen in the north until after the Hin Ghostwars, a tragic event that split the halflings into their current three breeds.

maybe pick one that's more "generic" and less distinct?

[3Power]

Since you mentioned you're using incarnum, Rilkans and Skarn share a common ancestor called the Mishtai, which are unstatted. You could ancel out their conflicting stat bonuses and give them the special abilities of each and have them physically resemble lizardfolk instead. I should also point out that since you mentioned giant and dragons that there are incarnum versions of each in the monster section, namely incarnum dragons and totem giants.

[NotASpiderSwarm]

Maybe include Goliaths from RoS as a giant-offshoot that’s player-available? I’d also include a couple dragon-associated races, some combination of kobolds, spellscales, lizardfolk, etc. Not all of them, but if dragons are a big deal, expect your players to want a dragon option.

[Emperor Tippy]

It depends a great deal on what mythology you go with.

I mean for Dwarves, the Midgard Dwarves from Frostburn could be very easily justified as the very first dwarves. That they are 8 HD outsiders with 4 LA could be an issue though. If nothing else, they provide a great way for you to justify magic items being a thing.

For elves, going with them not having split with the fey yet could work. As could using either the Grey Elves or the Wild Elves depending on what way you want to go with them

Seeing as you are doing an "in the beginning" story, my personal thought would be to go with the Grey Elves and replace Wizard with Psion as their favored race. Justify magic becoming a thing over time as they study the gifts of their number who are psionic and produce Wizardry in time.

For humans, I'm tempted to say go with giants being their progenitors. Maybe if the dragons and giants are warring, have some of the dragons curse a tribe of giants with being weak midgets (humans) and it breeds true, eventually you get humans.

---
What are you doing for the worlds mythos and deities? Because that could make suggestions a great deal easier.

[Fizban]

I mean, there are literally Neanderthals in Frostburn. Or if you want to go even further, there's like two different ape/monkey/whatevers (Hadozee and Vanara), and a badger-person whose picture looks like an ape (Wildren).

I'm not convinced the pre-civilization time period will fix the problem of not being able to give each race enough attention, however. It just means that all the PC-races are in the same place: under the feet of giants and dragons. If you really want to have a setting with non-standard races getting significant attention, then the setting needs to be about them- their civilizations, their conflicts against each other and within their own societies. Everyone vs monsters isn't much of a showcase.

Even the core races are already too numerous to shine: three different goblinoids that are only enemies, except when someone wants to play a goblin. Orcs which are also enemies but stronger, unless the DM is also cool with people playing orcs for +4 str. Humans, elves, and dwarves, but also cram in halflings and gnome somewhere maybe, and a smattering of half breeds. The most you can really focus on are 4-6 total: one for each of the PCs, one for the area they're in, and one for the humanoid enemies they're fighting. Normally this is human, elf, dwarf, small, and badguy.

But back to options: you could take one of the like three different aquatic humans and make them the original humans, or the one major subrace of them (evolutionary biology be damned). Following the "future humans will lose this connection" route, Spirit Folk from OA or UE also reasonable. Heck, Hengeyokai have a supernatural ability that actually gives them a significant survival edge.

A significant problem exists with the "logical" route of course, in that if giants and dragons formed empires, then pre-civilization humanoids would never beat them. Just flat out, they don't have the stats. So if you want to use the races that will logically form the foundations of the future humanoid empires, it's either those that live underground, or those that are currently slaves before the giants and dragons suddenly forget how to work together. Thus, aquatic humanoids could be significant, if these empires consist only (or mostly) of land-based foes, the ocean would be available.

Further, if you actually have the small humanoids like goblins, or heaven forbid, kobolds as given in Races of the Dragon, once again the Medium humanoids just don't rise. Goblins can fight them just fine while out breeding them, and kobolds can out breed goblins while literally eating dirt. So you've gotta ditch all the aggressive small humanoids. And all the long-lived humanoids take so long that if they have any competition from human-lived humanoids, the same thing happens.

So I guess that means I'm going Aventi, Asherati, Raptoran, Neanderthals, and Xephs. One for underwater, one for undersand, one for cliffs, one for plains, and one for underground (Xephs have darkvision). Throw in Poison Dusk Lizardfolk for forests and reptillian rep (nerf to LA +0 if needed), and Hengeyokai 'cause they're cool and can slip about anywhere. And maybe some Illumians that crossed the deep shadow plane if you want to get saucy (and push past half a dozen). Then after the giants and dragons have fought each other to near extinction, these established fringe territory peoples move in, basic Humans evolve or are produced, and the gods create their Dwarves and Elves and Goblins and Orcs and curse the dragons and giants to their solitary/infighting tendencies so they never rise again.

[Luccan]

Thanks to everyone whose responded so far. I'm going to take the suggestions of a small number of player races to heart. I currently have ~6 planned: an elf subrace (not Wild or Wood, I've decided), a dwarf-gnome common ancestor homebrew, Azurins as the ancestor of Humans, Dusklings (who will be the ancestors of halflings mainly because I like the connection that they're both generally nomads), and "Mishtai" ( I don't know if I'll homebrew some sort of mix between Rilkan and Skarn or just say "pick one, you aren't enemies yet"). Possibly orcs as well, but perhaps not. There will be other humanoids, but they'll mostly be enemies. Reptilian creatures, naturally mistrusted due to their ties or perceived ties to dragons, and maybe some giant-y races. There's only going to be a few humanoid gods even present, namely Corellon and Gruumsh, whose going to be a Cyclopes demi-god that got mad after Corellon removed his people's left eyes and decided to do his own thing rather than play nice with the other Giants.