Sphere of Force and Spiritual Weapon

[Glarnog]

So my group has a question. We have a group of baddies trapped in side a Wall of Force as a Sphere. The cleric wants to know if she can cast Spiritual Weapon, so that the weapon is created/summoned etc, inside the sphere.

This is happening now.

[Trask]

Nothing in either spell would suggest that you cant. Seems totally legal (and cheesy) to me.

[RSP]

I don’t see why not, so long as the weapon is created inside.

[Glarnog]

Thanks all. It's real touch and go osr stuff here. Fing void magic, and chr saves.

[CroThunder]

You can't cast spells through wall of force, ignore that you can see through it and imagine it was solid stone wall. Wall of force gives total cover (twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/725193970196701184) and you can't target someone or something with spells behind total cover (twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/677556662333403136])
Some things like misty step may bring confusion since you can teleport in or out of wall of force but that is because misty step targets yourself and teleports you somewhere you can see.

[RSP]

You can't cast spells through wall of force, ignore that you can see through it and imagine it was solid stone wall. Wall of force gives total cover (twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/725193970196701184) and you can't target someone or something with spells behind total cover (twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/677556662333403136])
Some things like misty step may bring confusion since you can teleport in or out of wall of force but that is because misty step targets yourself and teleports you somewhere you can see.

Not sure about RAI, but RAW this isn’t an issue in this case. The quote you have is about targeting. However, there is not an obstruction between the Spiritual Weapon and the target, because both are within the WoF.

Nothing in the description of WoF states it blocks magical effects (like teleporting) so creating the SW inside the WoF shouldn’t be an issue.

[ThePolarBear]

So my group has a question. We have a group of baddies trapped in side a Wall of Force as a Sphere. The cleric wants to know if she can cast Spiritual Weapon, so that the weapon is created/summoned etc, inside the sphere.

This is happening now.

Extremely late but:

"Range:
The target of a spell must be within the spell's range."

Spiritual Weapon has a range of 60 feet. Where you create the weapon is the target of the spell. As noted before, you can't target a place that is behind total cover.
If the weapon were already there: no problem. But casting the spell and creating the weapon inside, if you consider Wall of Force to be total cover, it's a no.

[Falconcry]

Related question. What about casting dragon’s breath on your familiar and snapping them in and out of their pocket dimension? If I can put my buddy on the other side of a solid door I should be able to put him somewhere I can see even with total cover. Or using the familar’s ability to deliver a touch spell for you on the other side of the barrier.

[JackPhoenix]

Extremely late but:

"Range:
The target of a spell must be within the spell's range."

Spiritual Weapon has a range of 60 feet. Where you create the weapon is the target of the spell. As noted before, you can't target a place that is behind total cover.
If the weapon were already there: no problem. But casting the spell and creating the weapon inside, if you consider Wall of Force to be total cover, it's a no.

Target of a spell is "creature, object, or a point of origin for an area of effect". But Spiritual Weapon doesn't require any of that when it is cast. It targets creatures after it is summoned, and WoF between it and the target creature would be a problem, but WoF doesn't prevent the weapon to be created on the other side.

Side note, 5e spell blocks really should have target/area listed in the header before the rest of the description, like in 3e.

[ThePolarBear]

Target of a spell is "creature, object, or a point of origin for an area of effect". But Spiritual Weapon doesn't require any of that when it is cast.

And Dispel Magic can target "other magical effects". The list of targets there isn't exclusive or otherwise complete, it's simply an example, a general, upon which exceptions are built. Just like under "targets" there's something about Fireball targeting a point in space. Fireball does target a point in space, AND all creatures caught in the blast. The spell description tells what it targets, and Spiritual Weapon does so: you need to choose a place within range: which is the only thing that the spell can target.

Once a spell is cast, it is no longer bound by range unless explicitly stated: Spiritual weapon, even the first attack, happen "when the spell is cast", which is necessarily "after" the spell has been completed: the weapon has to be there for something to be 5 feet from it. This means that the range factor is no longer appliable, and the target of the attack could be at 65 ft.

The only thing that the range section applies to is the place the weapon is summoned. That's "the spell target" as far as range is involved, and as a target it follows rules for targets: all of them, if there is not an exception.


Related question. What about casting dragon’s breath on your familiar and snapping them in and out of their pocket dimension?

Same thing: "A target with total cover can't be targeted directly"


If I can put my buddy on the other side of a solid door I should be able to put him somewhere I can see even with total cover.

For that use granted by Find Familiar there's no need for sight. However the cover rules apply to "an attack or other effect", and that sure is an effect.


Or using the familar’s ability to deliver a touch spell for you on the other side of the barrier.

Cover applies "when an attack or other effect originates on the opposite side of the cover.". Your familiar is the one delivering the spell, the origin, so if it isn't on the opposite side of cover, cover doen't apply.

[RSP]

And Dispel Magic can target "other magical effects". The list of targets there isn't exclusive or otherwise complete, it's simply an example, a general, upon which exceptions are built.

The target of SW is the creature being attacked by the SW.

“When you cast the spell, you can make a melee spell attack against a creature within 5 feet of the weapon. On a hit, the target takes force damage equal to 1d8 + your spellcasting ability modifier.”

Or are you suggesting the SW also deals 1d8+mod to the area it occupies (which I believe you are saying is also a “target” of the spell)?

[ThePolarBear]

The target of SW is the creature being attacked by the SW.

“When you cast the spell, you can make a melee spell attack against a creature within 5 feet of the weapon. On a hit, the target takes force damage equal to 1d8 + your spellcasting ability modifier.”

A spell isn't limited to have a single target. The target that the range section refers to is the point where the weapon is created. That is "the target". And it needs to follow the rules for a clear path.


Or are you suggesting the SW also deals 1d8+mod to the area it occupies (which I believe you are saying is also a “target” of the spell)?

Are you suggesting that the point targeted by the Fireball spell is not a target because it doesn't receive damage? Or that spells can only have a single target? The point where one summons the weapon is "the target" that the range refers to.

Edit: Added "" to "the target", because it might not have been apparent enough that i used "the target" as a reference to the range rule quoted mentioning "the target", and not to say that a spell can only have one single target, even explicitly stating the opposite already.

[RSP]

The point where one summons the weapon is "the target" that the range refers to.


Spells can have multiple targets, but they follow the rules. In this instance (SW) the target is whomever is being attacked. Hence my question, which you didn’t answer. The spell specifically says what happens to targets. So if you’re correct, then SW does 1d8+mod where it’s created.

Note: I don’t agree with your statement that where it’s created is the spell’s target, but if you do, than RAW, SW is an AoE.

[ThePolarBear]

Spells can have multiple targets, but they follow the rules. In this instance (SW) the target is whomever is being attacked.

There's no rule that says that to be a target, something has to be attacked. I agree that the target of an attack is a target.


Hence my question, which you didn’t answer. The spell specifically says what happens to targets. So if you’re correct, then SW does 1d8+mod where it’s created?

No, because the damage is what happens when a creature is hit by an attack. Where the weapon appears is not a creature and it is not on the receiving end of an attack, much less it is hit by it. Happy?

I did already answer, however: do you think that the point chosen by Fireball suffers damage, even if it is a target? Do you believe that it is necessary to suffer damage or receive an attack to be targets? The question you asked is not useful: a target is not a target exclusively because it suffers damage, exclusively because it is attacked, exclusively because it is a creature. The point in space that a caster chooses when casting Fireball is a target, even if it doesn't suffer damage, is not a creature, is not attacked. Assuming that what Spiritual Weapon targets is what suffers damage misses the mark to begin with.

The first effect of Spiritual Weapon is to make a weapon appear at a location of choice of the caster. This is what happens even before the caster is given the choice of making an attack. It is an effect of the spell, and it has a choice involved: where within range. "Where" is a target.


Note: I don’t agree with your statement that where it’s created is the spell’s target, but if you do, than RAW, SW is an AoE.

Again: a spell description is what states what a spell targets and what happens. The general even states so. The list is a non-exaustive example, the determination of what a target is is left to the spell description.
The first of the spell effects is to create a weapon where you choose. It creates a weapon in a location of your choice. That location is the target of the effect "a weapon appears there". Does it make an AoE? Prehaps, but it really doesn't matter. Even if it is, it certainly is not one with a common shape. Which again is not an exaustive list.

[JackPhoenix]

Snip

You can teleport through WoF (or other obstacles). While you're the target of Misty Step, you also select where you teleport to, but cover doesn't matter there, as long as you can see the destination. The destination is not the target... and that's spell that explicitly says the destination is "unoccupied space you can see". Spiritual Weapon doesn't even have that requirement.... no "unoccupied space" or anything to select, just "you create a (...) weapon within range".

[ThePolarBear]

You can teleport through WoF (or other obstacles).

With some spells only. Some spells allow you to, others don't. Teleport, the spell, does allow you to: range of 10 feet is for choosing which creatures can come with you. Dimension Door makes a specific exception, even with a range of 500. Arcane Gate doesn't make the same exception and thus can't.


While you're the target of Misty Step, you also select where you teleport to, but cover doesn't matter there, as long as you can see the destination. The destination is not the target... and that's spell that explicitly says the destination is "unoccupied space you can see".

And yet again you are completely forgetting what the range section means: where the spell acts. You can Misty Step a Wall of Force because the range is self: there's no cover between you and the target that the range requires. The magic affects you, even if you choose another place. You can't use Arcane Gate, for example, because the range is not self and the magic affects the point you choose to create the second portal. This is what range is there for. How it interacts with the rule for a clear path to the target.


Spiritual Weapon doesn't even have that requirement.... no "unoccupied space" or anything to select, just "you create a (...) weapon within range".

Ah yes, because the range is expressed in seconds, and you create the weapon in a place in time/s.

You choose a place within range where the weapon appears. That's the target. There's an exception? No. It has to follow the rule on clear paths.
Even if you do not choose, and it is selected at random, it still needs an exception. Does the DM choose? Still needs an exception. There is a place where the weapon will appear. That place will need to be within range AND will need to respect the rule for which there is no exception.

[RSP]

With some spells only.

Please don’t present your houserules as RAW. Here is the RAW on targets:

“A typical spell requires you to pick one or more targets to be affected by the spell’s magic. A spell’s description tells you whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or a point of origin for an area of effect (described below).”

To start, the place where the SW appears isn’t affected by SW’s magic. And since SW isn’t an AoE, the AoE rules “(described below)” aren’t pertinent.

Now, the description of SW tells you what it targets, just like the RAW states it will: “When you cast the spell, you can make a melee spell attack against a creature within 5 feet of the weapon. On a hit, the target takes force damage equal to 1d8 + your spellcasting ability modifier.”

So the description tells us the target is “a creature within 5’ of the weapon.” That’s the “target” referred to in the following sentence.

The RAW here is very clear and simple. If you want to create new rules for your game, great, but don’t try and pass them off as RAW when someone asks for help.

[Keravath]

The issue that folks are arguing is also in another thread at the moment.

Does a Wall of Force provide Total Cover?

1) If a Wall of Force provides total cover then you can't cast a spell at a target/location/creature on the other side of a Wall of Force because there is no line of effect for the spell to follow. This means that you could not summon a spiritual weapon at a point on the other side of a Wall of Force from the caster.

2) If a Wall of Force does not provide total cover then you can cast a spell targeting a location on the other side. Whether the wall of force then blocks the spell is dependent on the wording of the spell itself. Some spells manifest at the targeted location or creature (e.g. chill touch) and others are described as traveling through space to the target point (e.g. fireball). This might result in the spell being blocked by a Wall of Force.

However, RAW does not have a clear answer despite the two sides arguing very loudly about it (because there are two sides and both cite relevant sections of the rules - the final decision is up to the DM).


Many spells specify a target you can see, which, since a Wall of Force does not block vision, could mean that the location/creature/object can be targeted if Wall of Force is not ruled by the DM to provide total cover.

----------


To the OP, the resolution of your situation is a DM call and there are justifications to go either way with it. Some folks like Wall of Force to provide total cover so that characters can't use strategies like trap the creature and then cast something inside with it that will kill it off.

For example, RAW, Dragons do not have a teleportation ability, most can't cast spells. They are smart, resourceful and powerful but could be killed by a couple of mid level characters (level 9 ish possibly).

Cast Wall of Force in a sphere, then cast something inside that would eventually kill the dragon, Sickening Radiance ... you will eventually burn through legendary resistances. Both spells last 10 minutes, 6 failed saving throws to sickening radiance will kill the dragon from exhaustion. In 10 minutes there are 100 saves. However, dragons have decent con saves so this might not kill an ancient dragon.

Another option would be casting Dawn a few times. This does 2d10 radiant even on a failed save. This amounts to 110 damage/minute. So it might take a few casters but within 5-6 minutes, even an ancient dragon would be dead. There are lots of other spells that could be cast at a contained enemy that would be able to eventually kill them off with little or no risk to the creatures outside the wall of force IF characters can cast spells through a wall of force.

However, you can expect monsters to employ the same tactics. So if your players run into some high level casters there is a good chance they will wall of force them and then just kill them off with another spell. If the party lacks exactly the needed classes to be able to operate through a wall of force (i.e. high level casters with the correct spells ... then the party just dies).

So, although it is fun from a player perspective ... especially the first time they trap something this way. In the long run, the ability to cast spells at a target through a wall of force could eventually result in a TPK against many parties unless they have the needed classes and spells (e.g. caster with disintegrate could bring down the wall). Also, if Wall of Force allows spells to be cast through it, then martials are much more strongly affected by the wall than casters so there is a balance issue there too.

Anyway, the bottom line is that the decision is a DM call, that RAW isn't as precise as we might like on the question, and that the decision can have significant game balance issues and ramifications so the DM needs to give it a bit more thought than many other rulings.

[ThePolarBear]

The issue that folks are arguing is also in another thread at the moment.

Does a Wall of Force provide Total Cover?

Incredibly enough: no, it isn't. It is if total cover blocks SW at all. Wall of Force is incidental.


Please don’t present your houserules as RAW. Here is the RAW on targets:

“A typical spell requires you to pick one or more targets to be affected by the spell’s magic. A spell’s description tells you whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or a point of origin for an area of effect (described below).”

And the spell description takes precedent over the general. If a spell targets something that is not creatures, objects, or a point of origin of an AoE it is:
Still a spell
Still has a target
Still has to respect the rules for targets.

That's what specific > general means.


To start, the place where the SW appears isn’t affected by SW’s magic. And since SW isn’t an AoE, the AoE rules “(described below)” aren’t pertinent.

A typical spell requires you to pick one or more targets to be affected: A place is chosen and where before there was no spiritual weapon, now there is. The place has been affected: the contenents have changed. More targets are affected: the spell allow the caster to make attacks via the weapon.

"it isn't an AoE", says who? I agree, but it doesn't matter. Even if it isn't an AoE, a spell description is what tells us what a spell targets, even if it doesn't target creatures, objects or a point in space for an AoE. General rules are superceded all the time.


Now, the description of SW tells you what it targets, just like the RAW states it will: “When you cast the spell, you can make a melee spell attack against a creature within 5 feet of the weapon. On a hit, the target takes force damage equal to 1d8 + your spellcasting ability modifier.”

"One or more". "You create a floating, spectral weapon within range that lasts for the duration or until you cast this spell again." You, via spell, create a weapon within range. The place is affected. The place is a target. "A typical spell requires you to pick one or more targets to be affected", so an atypical spell can have no targets, or can have targets that you do not choose. So, the affected place is still a target.


So the description tells us the target is “a creature within 5’ of the weapon.” That’s the “target” referred to in the following sentence.

Yes, and again: "one or more". Targets existing for the attack doesn't make the location not a target. Fireball targets both the point and the creatures and flammable objects. The creature is the target of the attack and a target of the spell. Targeting status is not exclusive for different effects of the spell.


The RAW here is very clear and simple.

I agree. It's people that disagree in interpreting text. I've repeated what i wrote 3 times, and it has been the same each time. It's enough for me.

[JackPhoenix]

With some spells only. Some spells allow you to, others don't. Teleport, the spell, does allow you to: range of 10 feet is for choosing which creatures can come with you. Dimension Door makes a specific exception, even with a range of 500. Arcane Gate doesn't make the same exception and thus can't.

And yet again you are completely forgetting what the range section means: where the spell acts. You can Misty Step a Wall of Force because the range is self: there's no cover between you and the target that the range requires. The magic affects you, even if you choose another place. You can't use Arcane Gate, for example, because the range is not self and the magic affects the point you choose to create the second portal. This is what range is there for. How it interacts with the rule for a clear path to the target.

Ah yes, because the range is expressed in seconds, and you create the weapon in a place in time/s.

I'm not forgetting what range selection means: Nothing. Range has nothing to do with what the spell targets. 5e spells don't have explicit target entry, and range entry does not replace that. Pass without Trace also has a range of self, but targets other creatures within 30' of the caster. WoF would prevent that.


You choose a place within range where the weapon appears. That's the target. There's an exception? No. It has to follow the rule on clear paths.
Even if you do not choose, and it is selected at random, it still needs an exception. Does the DM choose? Still needs an exception. There is a place where the weapon will appear. That place will need to be within range AND will need to respect the rule for which there is no exception.

No, target is whatever is affected by the spell. Spiritual Weapon is not AoE with a point of origin, and the space where it appears is not affected by it, nor it is explicitly named as a target in its description, and thus it's not its target.

[ThePolarBear]

I'm not forgetting what range selection means: Nothing. Range has nothing to do with what the spell targets.

"RANGE
The target of a spell must be within the spell's range."

It has nothing to do, except limiting where the target can be. So, it has to do. It doesn't tell us what all the targets are, because that restriction is limited in time and by the spell themselves, nor defines what a target is.


5e spells don't have explicit target entry, and range entry does not replace that. Pass without Trace also has a range of self, but targets other creatures within 30' of the caster. WoF would prevent that.

And guess where there's the description of why? The range section: "Spells that create cones or lines of effect that originate from you also have a range of self, indicating that the origin point of the spell's effect must be you"

Again, i agree that there's no target entry. This doesn't mean that it is not possible to define what the target of a spell is - if something is affected, it's a target. A place can be as much of a target as a creature, an object, or other more specific thing - like a magical effect, which isn't really any of the above.


No, target is whatever is affected by the spell.

A place that had nothing now has a spiritual weapon. To me, that's affected by the spell, which states: "You create a floating, spectral weapon within range that lasts for the duration or until you cast this spell again." This is an effect of the spell and affects the place where the spiritual weapon appears - it now has a weapon in it.


Spiritual Weapon is not AoE with a point of origin, and the space where it appears is not affected by it, nor it is explicitly named as a target in its description, and thus it's not its target.

It being an AoE or not is of no matter. The space is affected. Therefore it is a target. I don't see how a weapon appearing is not a way of a spell to affect a place.

[Alucard89]

Um, can you see through Wall of Force? Because if you can you see your "target space" and you can place Spiritual Weapon there, same as you can teleport inside/outside it with Misty Step as you can see your target.

If you can see through Wall of Force you can cast spells that don't require anything Physicall to go through it.

It gives full cover vs range attacks imo as they are physical objects/beams etc. that need to pass through wall.

But unless I missed something- nothing says that WoF blocks your vision and says nothing that it blocks magic.

Imo this is one of those cases where someone designed "Full Cover" but forgot about cover that cyou can see through....

[Chaosmancer]

I find myself agreeing with the yes group here.

Total cover blocks line of effect, but not line of sight or spells that originate with no line of effect.

Spiritual weapon is incredibly weird in this regard, because it doesn't require a lot of the things you would think it does. For example, you don't need to see the space you are summoning the weapon into. You just "create a weapon within range" you also don't need to see where you move it to, or any creature you attack with it (though I think giving disadvantage for that is fair)

So, actually, a stone wall wouldn't prevent you from casting spiritual weapon into a room, because all spiritual weapon cares about is range, and then it makes attacks

[AttilatheYeon]

I think this boils down to DM descression. There realky isn't a RAW answer here. It's what each individual DM rules, which can very by table.

[JackPhoenix]

"RANGE
The target of a spell must be within the spell's range."

It has nothing to do, except limiting where the target can be. So, it has to do. It doesn't tell us what all the targets are, because that restriction is limited in time and by the spell themselves, nor defines what a target is.

Which is irrelevant for what the target is, or if there's any in the first place.


And guess where there's the description of why? The range section: "Spells that create cones or lines of effect that originate from you also have a range of self, indicating that the origin point of the spell's effect must be you"

Except, of course, tha fact PwT does not have cone or line of effect originating from the caster.


Again, i agree that there's no target entry. This doesn't mean that it is not possible to define what the target of a spell is - if something is affected, it's a target. A place can be as much of a target as a creature, an object, or other more specific thing - like a magical effect, which isn't really any of the above.

Of course it is possible to define what the target is: it's listed in the spell's description, it just doesn't have its own section, like it had back in 3e. And Spiritual Weapon's description tells you that the target is the creature it attacks.


A place that had nothing now has a spiritual weapon. To me, that's affected by the spell, which states: "You create a floating, spectral weapon within range that lasts for the duration or until you cast this spell again." This is an effect of the spell and affects the place where the spiritual weapon appears - it now has a weapon in it.

It being an AoE or not is of no matter. The space is affected. Therefore it is a target. I don't see how a weapon appearing is not a way of a spell to affect a place.

It doesn't affect the space in any way. The weapon isn't an obstacle, doesn't do anything to a creature moving into or out of that space, doesn't do anything to the space itself. You can even move it elsewhere.... by your logic, is any other space you move the weapon into later also its target?

[Aimeryan]

As Keravath mentioned, the RAW on whether Wall Of Force even blocks spells is divisive. Wall Of Force blocks physical, only - and that is where the RAW stops:


Nothing can physically pass through the wall.


Note that this is different to Forcecage's text:


A prison in the shape of a box can be up to 10 feet on a side, creating a solid barrier that prevents any matter from passing through it and blocking any spells cast into or out from the area.


So, it depends on how your DM rules magic works in relation to physicality - here are some potential options:


All magic is physical. No magic in any form gets through the wall. Since teleport spells travel via other planes (usually Astral), they bypass the wall rather than go through it.
All spells are physical once enacted, however, the magic to fuel the spell is not. This allows for spells to be created past the WOF (like Spiritual Weapon, and likely most spells), however, any spell created before the wall and then tries to travel through it will be stopped (like Fireball).
Some magic schools are physical, some are not. This allows for certain types of spells (like Illusions, say) to be cast through the WOF, but others (like Evocation, say) to not.
Magic is not physical, however, specific spells may of course utilise physical elements. Spells and magic in general can travel through the wall, however, a spell may act on something physical and that will be blocked (like Catapult), naturally.


Note that the talk of Total Cover is largely unsupported by RAW; Wall Of Force does not mention it grants Total Cover.

[RSP]

Snip


So the basis of your argument is that if a spell creates something in an area, then that area is also a target of the spell, is that correct?

[DrKerosene]

Except, of course, tha fact PwT does not have cone or line of effect originating from the caster.

Isn’t PWT an aura? Page 204 of the PHB says:

A spell's effect expands in straight lines from the point of origin. If no unblocked straight line extends from the point of origin to a location within the area of effect, that location isn't included in the spell's area. To block one of these imaginary lines, an obstruction must provide total cover, as explained in chapter 9.

So the caster of PWT can be right up against a Wall Of Force. There can be an ally who is on the other side of WoF and only 5ft away from the caster, and they won’t benefit from PWT due to WoF providing total cover.


That being said, since Spiritual Weapon can apparently pass through walls, I suspect it can pass through a WoF too (whether or not it can be summoned on the other side).