lvl 1 TPK tale

[da newt]

or "How 4 Kenku TPKed a party of 6 level 1 PCs"

Starting a new adventure with new PCs - 2 dwarf barbarian brothers, 1 sorcerer 1/2 elf, 1 bard 1/2 elf, 1 warlock tiefling, 1 fighter goblin.

In Waterdeep we are looking for a missing person who may have been abducted by the Zhentarim, we are headed to their warehouse to investigate. The bard decides to disguise self as a Zhentarim and one of the barbarians is a sailor so they will pose as a new recruit - the rest of us hide to provide cover. The Bard knocks, no response. The sorcerer has criminal background and picks the lock. The party enters and finds many dead Zhentarim and Xanthar's guild members.

We enter and have a look around. With max Passive Perception of 15, we are taken by surprised and attacked with no warning by 4 Kenku. They attack with ADV and drop our warlock, and hit the sorcerer and both the barbarians (who have not had a chance to rage).

3 of 4 Kenku have better initiative rolls than any PC, so 3 more attacks before any of us get to take any action, and the sorcerer and one barbarian go down (crit). The other barbarian hits, but rolls crap, the bard misses, the other Kenku hits the barbarian (now raging), and our fighter hits w/ light crossbow.

Next round, the other barbarian and bard go down, so now there are 4 kenku (2 injured) and only the fighter standing. The warlock rolls a 1 and dies outright (having failed their first death save). The fighter tries to surrender and heal the other PC's, the DM says - 'you know they won't let you to surrender.' It's too far to the door to GTFO, so the fighter charges and goes down. Crap death rolls follow, and only one barbarian and the fighter don't die outright.

Holy crap first level encounters are swingy! We were not on the top of our game, the rolls were not in our favor, and 4 CR 1/4 Kenku took out 6 lvl 1 PCs with ease.

What's the point? I don't know - maybe just catharsis for me ... I think we very fairly got our butts kicked.

[stoutstien]

1st level is incredibly swinging but the kenku group is probably a bad pick because of how there stealth combines with that advantage during surprise is a recipe for a TPK.

[MrStabby]

Sometimes those are the breaks.

Encounters like this can be very dangerous, especially at level 1.

Surprise is an absolute killer - potentially two enemy rounds before anyone can cast a control spell or use a defensive ability; it can destroy a party.

[Greywander]

This is what's known as a Death Spiral. Normally, D&D doesn't have death spirals (HP damage is meaningless, unless/until it drops you to 0), but in this case losing a couple of party members before their first turn definitely set you back for the rest of the fight.

You definitely shouldn't feel bad about having lost. It was a "fair" fight, in that you probably would have won had it not been for the ambush. But getting surprised like you did really swung the odds against you. Remember this, and be extra cautious in the future, but also look for opportunities to get the drop on monsters. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, as they say. Or, as I like to say, if it's fair for the PCs then it's fair for NPCs. If you catch an enemy by surprise, you could take down a monster much stronger than you could normally handle.

But yeah, a big part of playing D&D and any RPG is about learning what kinds of things can happen, and preparing for every eventuality. This is why so many players now carry 10 foot poles and use them to poke at the ceiling. This is why many players will check for traps or mimics before rushing over to a chest and opening it. A lot of things can kill you fast if they catch you by surprise, so part of being a seasoned adventurer is simply being a seasoned player. You don't get that way by winning, you get that way by losing, over and over. It's like Dark Souls: you die over and over, each time learning to prepare against the thing that killed you. And eventually, your reflexes get so good that you can avoid dying to something the first time you see it, because you anticipated something like it.

On that note, though, what should you have done differently do you think? Next time a situation like this comes up, how are you going to handle it? Preparing in advance will make it easier to react on the fly.

[J-H]

The extra set of actions from a surprise round is not technically RAW, although a lot of tables do it. I usually limit surprise-round actions to a single action (move or attack or spell), a carryover from my 3.5 days.

[da newt]

In my opinion, the legit option of death/TPK can be a good thing. It's nice to be reminded you aren't gods or favored by the Hollywood screen writers of your adventure who will ensure that you pull it out at the last second. You can't just go clomping around as if you are neigh invulnerable.

What could we have done better - our positioning was crap (we assumed fire ball formation for the most part and stomped right into harm's way) and we didn't try to take advantage of cover. Our squishy PCs took no real precautions, and found themselves right up in the thick of things without ensuring they had useful AC. We didn't scout or send a sneaky guy cautiously fwd, or ensure our robust barbarians were out in front to act as true tanks.

What did we change going fwd - we decided to resurrect these PC's and jump into a new adventure that starts at lvl 5. We were all given the opportunity to purchase one uncommon magic item and I grabbed a weapon of warning - rapier over a +1 weapon (my PC is the goblin fighter who is going Eldritch Knight so DPR isn't my #1 priority, and I plan to use shadow blade often in the future).

What lesson did the rest of the party learn - that remains to be seen ...

For clarity - the Kenku took no "extra" actions during the surprise round. They each attacked (short bow I think) during the first round, we were all surprised so no action or reaction that round, then the normal initiative had 3 of them taking turns on the second round before any of us.

[Demonslayer666]

That's not a fair fight. The ambush makes it twice as difficult. Poor judgement on the DM's part.

I don't see the point of killing off the player's characters at first level when it is no fault of their own. Now you have accomplished nothing besides stopping play and starting over, and you just got started. Congrats. Feels like a waste of time to me.

[Corran]

For clarity - the Kenku took no "extra" actions during the surprise round. They each attacked (short bow I think) during the first round, we were all surprised so no action or reaction that round, then the normal initiative had 3 of them taking turns on the second round before any of us.
AFB, but I am pretty sure you can take reactions during the first round when surprised after your turn has passed. Tough break btw. If you are playing dragonheist (or a variation of your DM based on it), be warned that this campaign features some pretty difficult fights (at least the early stages of it), so be extra careful going forward.



This is why so many players now carry 10 foot poles and use them to poke at the ceiling. This is why many players will check for traps or mimics before rushing over to a chest and opening it.
Ah yes, the awkward transition from rolling initiative to secure more loot, to ''hey, there's a chest at the bottom of that lake, someone go check it out''.

[Dark.Revenant]

That's four 1d6+3 attacks with advantage using a +5 modifier, vs. what I assume is:

2 dwarf barbarian brothers: 15 HP and 14 AC
sorcerer 1/2 elf: 8 HP and 12 AC
bard 1/2 elf: 10 HP and 13 AC
warlock tiefling: 9 HP and 13 AC
fighter goblin: 13 HP and 16 AC (dex build w/ shield)

There's a 91% chance to hit 12 AC and a 75% chance to hit 16 AC. The crit chance is 9.75%. This gives first-round DPR of 20.865 to 25.025, depending on who they're shooting. This is approximately one third of the party's HP gone, right off the bat.

The next round, the chance becomes 50% to 70%, depending on target's AC, with a 5% crit chance. This gives a DPR of 13.7 to 18.9, depending on the target, which is around a quarter of the party's HP gone, each round after the initial ambush.

In short, if the party can't kill any of the kenku or significantly mitigate the damage in some way, everyone is dead by the end of Round 4.

For the record, I don't understand how Kenku are CR 1/4. Going by the DMG guidelines, they would be CR 1/2. Even without the ambush, the four CR-actually-1/2 creatures are probably a deadly encounter for six level 1 PCs. WITH the ambush, we can effectively raise their CR to 1, indicating that it's way beyond deadly and straight into TPK territory, as you witnessed.

[Dork_Forge]

This is one of the reasons I neither like to play nor run at levels 1-2 and a big reason why Half Orcs and Goliaths would be so tempting were I to play a martial at that level. With a round where you were all surprised I don't think you could have survived that unless they happened to roll garbage for some of the damage/hits.

[Sudsboy]

AFB, but I am pretty sure you can take reactions during the first round when surprised after your turn has passed. Tough break btw. If you are playing dragonheist (or a variation of your DM based on it), be warned that this campaign features some pretty difficult fights (at least the early stages of it), so be extra careful going forward.

"If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends." https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/combat#Surprise

<edit> I should clarify this is in support of the quoted position before an argument starts

[Petrocorus]

We enter and have a look around. With max Passive Perception of 15, we are taken by surprised and attacked with no warning by 4 Kenku. They attack with ADV and drop our warlock, and hit the sorcerer and both the barbarians (who have not had a chance to rage).

I wonder, the kenkus were already inside and ambushed you from when you walked in?

Did you enter without care? Did you specify to the DM that you were on your guards?

[Dork_Forge]

I wonder, the kenkus were already inside and ambushed you from when you walked in?

Did you enter without care? Did you specify to the DM that you were on your guards?

In terms of surprise it shouldn't really matter, if the Kenku's rolled Stealth =/>15 then the entire party is surprised, active perception would only matter if the Kenku were trying to hide in the area without attacking the party (and the party actively looking around).

[Petrocorus]

In terms of surprise it shouldn't really matter, if the Kenku's rolled Stealth =/>15 then the entire party is surprised, active perception would only matter if the Kenku were trying to hide in the area without attacking the party (and the party actively looking around).

I won't start another debate on surprise rules, i'll just say this is quite DM-dependant.

[Dork_Forge]

I won't start another debate on surprise rules, i'll just say this is quite DM-dependant.

What's DM dependent about this? The surprise rules explicitly say that the stealth check competes against passive perception, the highest passive perception in the OP's party was 15 and the Kenku were hiding. If their score was 15 or higher than the entire party is surprised, the only DM dependent thing here is if the DM correctly uses the rules, forgets them or alters them.

[OracularPoet]

That's not a fair fight. The ambush makes it twice as difficult. Poor judgement on the DM's part.

I don't see the point of killing off the player's characters at first level when it is no fault of their own. Now you have accomplished nothing besides stopping play and starting over, and you just got started. Congrats. Feels like a waste of time to me.

To defend the DM (module spoiler):

I can tell that this is the second combat encounter of the Dragonheist published module.

[Petrocorus]

What's DM dependent about this? The surprise rules explicitly say that the stealth check competes against passive perception, the highest passive perception in the OP's party was 15 and the Kenku were hiding. If their score was 15 or higher than the entire party is surprised, the only DM dependent thing here is if the DM correctly uses the rules, forgets them or alters them.

And this rules are not so consistent with the rules about Hiding and Finding Hidden Objects in the Using Ability Score chapter. So the DM perfectly can allows you to make an active check to find creatures hidden and ready to ambush you.

[Dork_Forge]

And this rules are not so consistent with the rules about Hiding and Finding Hidden Objects in the Using Ability Score chapter. So the DM perfectly can allows you to make an active check to find creatures hidden and ready to ambush you.

...Yes that is inline with the rules? If the party actually looks for hidden people then they can certainly use an active roll in place of passive as per the hiding rules. I'm guessing that I missed a bunch of arguments over this previously, the rules seem pretty clear, the only point of contention I can see is a DM maybe needing a PC to specifically look for hidden people instead of looking around in general.

[Petrocorus]

...Yes that is inline with the rules? If the party actually looks for hidden people then they can certainly use an active roll in place of passive as per the hiding rules. I'm guessing that I missed a bunch of arguments over this previously, the rules seem pretty clear, the only point of contention I can see is a DM maybe needing a PC to specifically look for hidden people instead of looking around in general.
After having read, or took part in several arguments on this subjects, one very recently, i can tell that several people can read several the rules and end up with different understanding of them.
Which does not speak for the wording and the presentation of the rules.

[Eldariel]

So this is very much like the first fight in LMoP, which is infamous for being highly lethal to level 1 PCs to the point that if the Gobs success their sneak and the party doesn't have an Alert Wizard/Bard casting Sleep, it might even favor the Goblins with the players as the underdogs.

In short, this is probably the expected outcome. First level characters are squishy and taking the brunt of enemy attacks just isn't something they are well-equipped to do (aside from Vuman with Heavy Armor Mastery maybe, and even there it's dicy since their HP is so low). Of course, a party of 6 should be generally advantaged but dice happen: them winning Stealth and you losing Initiative is just how the dice fall sometimes and gives them ample time to even the odds.

[SociopathFriend]

Action economy is king in D&D and never moreso than level 1.
At level 1 few classes have reactions or bonus actions- meaning that one action you have is your only influence over a given battle.

And if the enemy gets theirs before yours? You're in trouble.
I'll never forget the day we got TPK'd by those 1 hp skeletal hands.
We had full skeletons chasing us and so sensible backed off down a hallway and put a rope across the hall to trip them as they came out since undead are stupid like that.

The little creeping crawlies crawled right under the rope and attacked from surprise, so the DM rolled with advantage, and in the end I think he rolled like 4 crits.
Dropped every single player in one round barring I think the Rogue that was hanging even farther back. He decided to run away at that point.

I think the only time I've ever seen so much frustration was a group of level 1 characters in a Chult rainstorm trying to take down a Flying Snake. Less party kills but man were they having no fun in that.

[da newt]

IN my opinion, I think it's great that we got TPKed. 4 keku vs 6 lvl 1 PCs is not an unfair fight in any way, but if the party always wins are the fights ever fair? I think this is simply an illustration of just how swingy combat can be especially at low levels. If we hadn't been surprised, and if a couple of us rolled decent initiative we might have wiped the floor with them, but that's not what happened. I prefer a little realism in my fantasy - sometimes the heroes get whupped.

[WadeWay33]

That's not a fair fight. The ambush makes it twice as difficult. Poor judgement on the DM's part.

I don't see the point of killing off the player's characters at first level when it is no fault of their own. Now you have accomplished nothing besides stopping play and starting over, and you just got started. Congrats. Feels like a waste of time to me.

Agreed. Not allowing the PCs to surrender was bad too. IIRC Kenku are mostly thieves, not assassins, so they should’ve just taken your belongings and left y’all unconscious.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I'll never forget the day we got TPK'd by those 1 hp skeletal hands.

Last week we got halfway to wiped by a single animated broom. We were level 2, and our DM is of the opinion that "not every critical failure results in hitting a party member".

Sometimes the dice just hate you.

[Keravath]

First level is swingy since the characters just don't have the hit points. However, that is not the main issue here. The issue is the surprise round. The attackers were able to make 7 attacks before the party even had a chance to go and they rolled well on those attacks including at least one crit. It only takes one or two hits to bring down a first level character.