Permanent Teleportation Circles

[Segev]

Teleportation circle (http://5e.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportationCircle.htm) is a spell that I have in the past accused module writers of confusing for how older versions of it worked, from earlier editions. For instance, it says in Tomb of Annihilation that a particular NPC will "slip through her permanent teleportation circle" if she's threatened. Leaving aside that she hasn't been there for a year to establish a permanent one, I have commented in the past that she still needs to cast it, because all the permanent ones do is serve as destination points for temporary ones.

But I was rereading the spell today. The relevant portions are its duration (1 round), its material component cost (rare chalks and inks infused with precious gems worth 50gp, which the spell consumes), and the following:
"As you cast the spell, you draw a 10-foot-diameter circle on the ground inscribed with sigils that link your location to a permanent teleportation circle of your choice whose sigil sequence you know..."
"A shimmering portal opens within the circle you drew and remains open until the end of your next turn. Any creature that enters the portal instantly appears within 5 feet of the destination circle or in the nearest unoccupied space if that space is occupied."
"You can create a permanent teleportation circle by casting this spell in the same location every day for one year. You need not use the circle to teleport when you cast the spell in this way."

So, you draw a circle with sigils. And in that, a glowing portal appears. It links to a destination circle that is explicitly a "permanent teleportation circle."

Now, I can interpret a permanent teleportation circle in one of three ways:

It actually doesn't do anything except serve as a destination for non-permanent teleportation circles created by single castings of the spell.
This is how I'd thought it worked until now. Now, I'm not so sure.
It can be used by a caster to cast teleportation circle to link to another permanent teleportation circle (whose sigil sequence the caster knows) without spending the material components (because the circle already exists rather than needing to be re-inscribed)
Anybody who knows the spell and/or some destination sigil sequences can cause a permanent teleportation circle to open onto another permanent teleportation circle.

Option 2 seems the most reasonable, to me, but opens up questions about the one that's been laid down as part of casting a temporary version of this spell. It's not a permanent circle, but it's also still there. The chalk is consumed; it doesn't say the circle goes away. Presumably, you can't just open a teleportation circle back to it (even if you know the sigil sequence) because the spell says it has to go to a permanent one, but I could see a DM generously ruling otherwise. But does this mean that somebody else could cast teleportation circle using the non-permanent one you scribed to bypass the material component?

Option 3 actually seems implied by Tomb of Annihilation. If anybody who knows the spell can just open a portal from one permanent teleportation circle to another whose sigil sequence she knows, "she slips through her permanent teleportation circle" suddenly works perfectly fine within the rules of the game, rather than being a module writer not understanding them.

How likely is it that it works per Option 3, given that? Versus how likely is it that the module writer was just confusing it with 3e or earlier's version of the spell?


What other consequences are there for each of these options, particularly 2 and 3? (since I think 1's already the default understanding; if I'm wrong, let me know!)

[Zhorn]

The most likely reason is just the module writer mixing up their rules with earlier editions, or doing the whole "don't let the facts get in the way of a good story" and ignoring the exact ruling of the spell because they liked what they were writing better.

As a player and forum answerer; I'd go with (1) as what is supposed to be the ruling.

As a DM; having had a very similar discussion (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?600841-Teleportation-Circles-Permanence) before, I've gone on to houserule (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?601036-tweaking-Teleportation-Circle&highlight=circle) the permanance aspect of the sigil as a spell target and the duration of the active portal.

[prabe]

The act of casting the spell involves inscribing the circle you draw with the sigils of the destination circle. The permanent circle has sigils permanently drawn in, so you can't draw new or different ones. I've always understood the permanent circles to be destination-only, which is still useful, as that's one of the few ways to eliminate the potential for error if you cast the teleport spell.

As to what's left when you cast the spell: Nothing but maybe a smudgy circle on the ground. The chalk you used to draw the circle has been consumed, and there's nothing readable left;

I agree, though, that lots of people making adventures--both published and homebrew--are expecting permanent circles to work for outgoing teleportations; I do not believe the text of the spell supports that interpretation.

The implications for either of the other two options you mention center around long-distance travel being potentially much more quick. I'd think you'd need to make it clear how you were running the spell, because as you say, neither of those is the default assumption.

[Falconcry]

As you pointed out it is an NPC. NPCs have different abilities then PCs based on the narrative you need. Hopefully it won’t cause players the protest. But I agree the first seems right.

[Zhorn]

NPCs have different abilities then PCs based on the narrative you need.
Another factor to build from this is the concept of inventing spells for the game, both as a persuit of players, or a DM narrative tool to show magic spellcraft is an evolving medium.
Having the spell for teleportation circles function the same, but have an invented spell that allows a creature to step through one teleportation circle to another designated existing circle.
I like this as a solution to a problem, but I feel it can be a bit of a cop out to use as an explanation of someone else's process.

[Chronos]

A permanent teleportation circle is a teleportation circle that's permanent. An ordinary teleportation circle creates a portal that lasts for its duration. For a permanent circle, then, the portal lasts permanently. This is in addition to the other benefit given for permanent circles, that they can be used as a destination.

But you can probably change the destination of a permanent circle by re-casting the spell. After all, it nowhere says that the 365 castings needed to make it permanent must all be to the same destination. And pairs of circles that link to each other seem to be common enough, which would be otherwise impossible to produce, since if the destination were unchangeable, you could only ever travel from newer circles to older ones.

You can still, if you want, have a circle that serves only as a destination, without leading anywhere else, simply by setting the circle's destination to itself.

One must still wonder how the first teleportation circle ever came into existence, because the spell can't be cast until a permanent circle exists, and a permanent circle requires many castings of the spell. But one can put that far enough back in the murky past to handwave it away with "lost magics", or "a god did it", or the like.

[Lunali]

The spell is designed to be option 1. It has been used incorrectly in several adventures.

[Lord Vukodlak]

A permanent teleportation circle is a teleportation circle that's permanent. An ordinary teleportation circle creates a portal that lasts for its duration. For a permanent circle, then, the portal lasts permanently. This is in addition to the other benefit given for permanent circles, that they can be used as a destination.

There are two components to the teleportation circle spell. The circle and the portal that appears within the circle. Only the circle can be made permanent via repeated castings. At no point in the spell description is references made to a permanent portal only the inscribed circle. The passage about important places alludes to permanent circles inscribed in them but not portals.

[Segev]

There are two components to the teleportation circle spell. The circle and the portal that appears within the circle. Only the circle can be made permanent via repeated castings. At no point in the spell description is references made to a permanent portal only the inscribed circle. The passage about important places alludes to permanent circles inscribed in them but not portals.

This...is an interpretation that I could see, sure, but I don't see it as definitely laid out that way in the spell.

It refers to "permanent teleportation circles," and does not say they differ from impermanent ones in any way save that they are valid targets for you to use as destinations.

At the very least, a permanent one obviating the need for further costly materials seems reasonable. (So just use the permanent one as the material component, which would not be consumed, rather than needing to draw a new one with gem-infused chalk.)

[Prince Vine]

Not to be obnoxious, but is there anything saying all permanent teleportation circles are the same? Maybe there are two kinds, it's what I've used. Some are created by the spell and serve as destinations (and start points, and there are other ways to make them, digressions) and some are circles that have a constant one-way teleportation effect, like a portal.

[Segev]

Not to be obnoxious, but is there anything saying all permanent teleportation circles are the same? Maybe there are two kinds, it's what I've used. Some are created by the spell and serve as destinations (and start points, and there are other ways to make them, digressions) and some are circles that have a constant one-way teleportation effect, like a portal.

I've not seen any evidence that there are two kinds, nor that what you list as the second kind is different than the first. The example from a module I keep referencing has the character in question have the spell, and no indiciation that she has or needs anything othre than that to set up the permanent circle she uses. (Her lack of need to have spent a year on setting it up is another questionable bit in the module.)

[firelistener]

A permanent teleportation circle is a teleportation circle that's permanent. An ordinary teleportation circle creates a portal that lasts for its duration. For a permanent circle, then, the portal lasts permanently. This is in addition to the other benefit given for permanent circles, that they can be used as a destination.

But you can probably change the destination of a permanent circle by re-casting the spell. After all, it nowhere says that the 365 castings needed to make it permanent must all be to the same destination. And pairs of circles that link to each other seem to be common enough, which would be otherwise impossible to produce, since if the destination were unchangeable, you could only ever travel from newer circles to older ones.

You can still, if you want, have a circle that serves only as a destination, without leading anywhere else, simply by setting the circle's destination to itself.

One must still wonder how the first teleportation circle ever came into existence, because the spell can't be cast until a permanent circle exists, and a permanent circle requires many castings of the spell. But one can put that far enough back in the murky past to handwave it away with "lost magics", or "a god did it", or the like.

I like this idea about the destination-only circle pointing to itself. Reminds me of hacky programming techniques to implement recursive functions on a data structure lol, which is kind of how I envision wizards writing out these rune sequences.

[Lord Vukodlak]

This...is an interpretation that I could see, sure, but I don't see it as definitely laid out that way in the spell.

It refers to "permanent teleportation circles," and does not say they differ from impermanent ones in any way save that they are valid targets for you to use as destinations.

At the very least, a permanent one obviating the need for further costly materials seems reasonable. (So just use the permanent one as the material component, which would not be consumed, rather than needing to draw a new one with gem-infused chalk.)

If the permanent circles had permanent portals you’d need to have a line about what happens to the portal when a third party targets it with a casting teleportation circle. Does the temporary and permanent portal exist at the same time? It doesn’t say it displaces the existing portal so they both must exist.
Having the portal be permanent raises a lot of questions, like say you have a permanent circle linking site A and B.
If someone at location C creates a new permanent circle targeting B. What happens to the portal siting at site A?

What if you happen to know a dozen sigils and when creating your permanent circle you target a different one each day. Does it fail to create a permanent portal? or only create a permanent portal to the last one used?

Furthermore the portals are one-way. There’s no mention of someone at the destination point being able to use the portal to go back. Which at least avoids the question of what happens if someone is standing on the destination circle when I cast the spell.


It refers to "permanent teleportation circles," and does not say they differ from impermanent ones in any way save that they are valid targets for you to use as destinations.
You’re absolutely right it doesn’t differ in anyway which means this line applies
“A shimmering portal opens within the circle you drew and remains open until the end of your next turn.”
If it doesn’t differ in anyway then the portal is still only temporary.
The first part of the spell description is about creating a portal to a permanent circle whose sigil you know.
The second part is about learning unique sigils

The bottom of the spell description, is about creating a permanent circle. It’s separated because it’s a separate use for the spell.
It’s clearly written as a second alternative use.

Having the permanent circle only include the circle is the simplest answer and avoids half a dozen other questions.

[Segev]

Good point on the portal opening, then closing one round later. However, that description is for the temporary circle you create by default. It does expressly call them "permanent teleportation circles."


To illustrate why I still raise this question, let's examine a hypothetical spell. I'll call it "Rune Portal."

Rune Portal
5th-level conjuration
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Components: V, M (A ritually-crafted rune attuned to the destination that costs 50gp, which the spell consumes)
Duration: 1 round

As you cast the spell, you press the rune into a flat surface. A shimmering portal large enough for you to walk comfortably through opens centered on the rune as it burns away, and remains open until the end of your next turn. This portal leads to a location designated by the ward when it was crafted. Any creature that enters the portal instantly appears within 5 feet of the destination or in the nearest unoccupied space if that space is occupied.

Many major temples, guilds, and other important places sell such runes, attuned to designated entry points.

You can create a permanent rune portal by casting this spell in the same location every day for one year. You need not travel through the portal when you cast the spell in this way.
What, ignoring all context of teleportation circle, do you believe a "permanent rune portal" created as per the rules in the last sentence of this spell does?

[prabe]

Your "Rune Portal" spell (when cast daily in the same place for a year) would seem to create a permanently open one-way portal from where it is cast to the chosen destination, at a cost of 18,250 gp worth of materials.

[Falconcry]

Seems like a good spot for a related question.

If you use the spell to head to a permanent circle have you left the sigil inscribed in chalk for where you went?


Wizard - "OK folks we got the Lich's Golden Detonator Button of Meteor Swarm. I do not want to go through that room with the Beholder headed Golems again. Let me draw a circle to teleport out!"

*Bamf*

Mook 2 - "Hey boss they stole your master macguffin"

*Lich looks at the ground for a minute*

Lich - "Gather everyone to the portal room. I know where they are!"

[Lord Vukodlak]

I have a buddy who has that book and he looked up the passage for me. It also says "The destination sigils" aren't recorded in the dungeon so following the NPC is impossible. Which means the circle can't be creating a permanent portal. To the issue of her not having enough time to have set up the circle is easily solved by saying she didn't and simply found and existing circle and claims it as her own. Its likely the writers forgot how long it takes to set one up, and how long it takes to cast the spell to begin with.

One could reason that if you have an EXISTING circle it doesn't take one minute to cast teleportation circle because you don't have to draw anything. But I don't believe that to be the actual rules. And that wouldn't mean you have a permanent portal it'd just mean you can cast the spell as an action.


Good point on the portal opening, then closing one round later. However, that description is for the temporary circle you create by default. It does expressly call them "permanent teleportation circles."
No it expressly calls it a portal that appears within a circle you drew linked to a permanent teleportation circle. It doesn't actually call what you created a in a minute a teleportation circle.



To illustrate why I still raise this question, let's examine a hypothetical spell. I'll call it "Rune Portal."

Rune Portal
5th-level conjuration
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Components: V, M (A ritually-crafted rune attuned to the destination that costs 50gp, which the spell consumes)
Duration: 1 round

As you cast the spell, you press the rune into a flat surface. A shimmering portal large enough for you to walk comfortably through opens centered on the rune as it burns away, and remains open until the end of your next turn. This portal leads to a location designated by the ward when it was crafted. Any creature that enters the portal instantly appears within 5 feet of the destination or in the nearest unoccupied space if that space is occupied.

Many major temples, guilds, and other important places sell such runes, attuned to designated entry points.

You can create a permanent rune portal by casting this spell in the same location every day for one year. You need not travel through the portal when you cast the spell in this way.
What, ignoring all context of teleportation circle, do you believe a "permanent rune portal" created as per the rules in the last sentence of this spell does?
Context is actually important to understanding the rules
You've rewritten the spell what does that prove? You didn't just swap some words around you fundamentally changed how it works.
The destination is now determined by the material component, and not by linking to another permanent portal whose address to you know.

Furthermore the original spell refers to the creation of TWO entities the circle which is the destination and the portal which is the means of transportation. You're spell only refers to the creation of the portal it doesn't say how do you create the attuned rune to begin with.

You've rewritten the spell description to refer to only creating the portal, so that's the only thing the spell can do, so of course its going to create a permanent portal.
Look I can rewrite the spell to 'prove' myself 'right' too.
Rune Portal
5th-level conjuration
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Components: V, M (A ritually-crafted rune, that costs 50gp, which the spell consumes)
Duration: 1 round

As you cast the spell, you press the rune into a flat surface. A shimmering portal large enough for you to walk comfortably through opens centered on the rune as it burns away, and remains open until the end of your next turn. This portal leads to an attuned location that you know of. Any creature that enters the portal instantly appears within 5 feet of the destination or in the nearest unoccupied space if that space is occupied.

Many major temples, guilds, and other important places have attuned locations.

You can create a permanent attuned location by casting this spell in the same location every day for one year. You need not travel through the portal when you cast the spell in this way.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Seems like a good spot for a related question.

If you use the spell to head to a permanent circle have you left the sigil inscribed in chalk for where you went?


Wizard - "OK folks we got the Lich's Golden Detonator Button of Meteor Swarm. I do not want to go through that room with the Beholder headed Golems again. Let me draw a circle to teleport out!"

*Bamf*

Mook 2 - "Hey boss they stole your master macguffin"

*Lich looks at the ground for a minute*

Lich - "Gather everyone to the portal room. I know where they are!"

That's a very good question, but it does say the material component is consumed which we can reason includes the drawing you put on the floor. Now if someone was watching when they cast the spell they could try and memorize the sigil. But trying to memorize something in a round that should take a minute might be tough.

[prabe]

Seems like a good spot for a related question.

If you use the spell to head to a permanent circle have you left the sigil inscribed in chalk for where you went?


Wizard - "OK folks we got the Lich's Golden Detonator Button of Meteor Swarm. I do not want to go through that room with the Beholder headed Golems again. Let me draw a circle to teleport out!"

*Bamf*

Mook 2 - "Hey boss they stole your master macguffin"

*Lich looks at the ground for a minute*

Lich - "Gather everyone to the portal room. I know where they are!"

It'd be worth consulting with your DM about this (or thinking about it if you're the DM). My take is that you draw the circle in chalk, which is consumed by the casting of the spell. There's--maybe--a smudged circle left behind. If it's possible to tell what the sigils are, it should be a pretty challenging DC--and it should be a known feature of the spell in the world.

EDIT: Since I don't think I was adequately clear: In my world, someone can tell that you cast a teleportation circle spell, but they can't read the destination.

[Segev]

Seems like a good spot for a related question.
If you use the spell to head to a permanent circle have you left the sigil inscribed in chalk for where you went?

Wizard - "OK folks we got the Lich's Golden Detonator Button of Meteor Swarm. I do not want to go through that room with the Beholder headed Golems again. Let me draw a circle to teleport out!"
*Bamf*
Mook 2 - "Hey boss they stole your master macguffin"
*Lich looks at the ground*
Lich - "Gather everyone to the portal room. I know where they are!"
This depends entirely on whether the sigils in your chalk circle match the destination, or are the sigils for THIS circle if it's to be used as a destination (which only matters when you cast it for the 356th day in a row), unless the GM rules that you can make your own temporary permanent circles to 'port to, which the spell doesn't support but I could see rules of verisimilitude and fun suggesting house rules for).

In the (as we have already established questionable) NPC in Tomb of Annihilation's section, it mentions that there's no indication of what the sigil sequence for where she retreats to is, so the PCs can't follow her if they don't rush through the portal in the same round. (Showing at least some undrstanding of the 5e version of the spell, come to think of it.)

It's hard to determine if the chalk circle remains until scuffed/washed away/erased, or vanishes when the portal does, because 5e says that material components are not consumed unless the spell says they are. Now, teleportation circle says they are, but it also describes the manner in which they're consumed: you use up the chalk making the circle on the ground. The circle on the ground isn't a material component.



Your "Rune Portal" spell (when cast daily in the same place for a year) would seem to create a permanently open one-way portal from where it is cast to the chosen destination, at a cost of 18,250 gp worth of materials.

I would agree; that's what the wording implies to me, as well. I will note that I copied the wording as exactly as I could from teleportation circle, just removing references to permanent ones existing as the target destinations for the temporary ones being scribbled down as part of the casting of the spell.

Therefore, it seems reasonable to me to read teleportation circle's references to "permanent teleportation circles" in the same way. Nothing in the spell says they are not permanently open to anybody who knows the sigil sequence for a circle they want to go to.

That said, it also doesn't say they are permanently open. And it certainly provides no means - other than casting the spell - to choose a destiation for one.

A very strict reading (that assumes it stays permanentyl open) would say that each permanent teleportation circle points to a specific other one, and is always open. Note that you appear within 5 feet of the destination circle, so you wouldn't be automatically shunted to the next destination.

This would, again, make the Tomb of Annihilation entry wrong, though, as it would mean that following the caster is as easy as entering the circle.


Reading both references to it in the module, it refers to her "slipping through" the circle, and the fact that the sigil sequence for her destination is not recorded anywhere, but that casters who know the spell can memorize the circle HERE and use it as a destination.

This suggests to me that the actual interpretation the writer of the module is using - correctly or not - is that the permanent circle doesn't have a permanent portal, but that it does bypass the need either for the expensive material component or for casting the spell at all. Otherwise, why bother slipping through the existing permanent teleportation circle rather than just casting the spell normally from her current location when she decides to use it?

Further, the section on the permanent teleportation circle itself notes that characters with Arcana proficiency can memorize or write down the sigil sequence for it so it can be used "as a destination from another teleportation circle." There is no mention of having to cast the spell, suggesting that a permanent teleportation circle can be used to go to any other permanent teleportation circle the user knows the sequence for. If this is true, then the spell merely allows you to make a temporary circle to start from, while permanent circles obviate the need for the spell as well as enabling you to come TO them.


This is, of course, predicated on the module writer understanding what the spell does. However, having read and re-read the section on this particular one in the module, it seems to me less and less likely that he was confusing it for 3.5's version of the spell. He demonstrates understanding of the sigil sequences and how they're used, which is a strictly 5e invention. (Well, there's also the novels that feature Pug the wizard which have all teleportation involve clearly envisioning the destination, and various wizard guildhalls having unique teleportation chambers with elaborate but easy-to-memorize designs to make it easy to get to them.)

The most restrictive way to read it remains that the year of casting just makes a destination. Still takes a spell and components to go to it, and there's no use in going to one as a departure point because you can make one wherever you are.


...curiously, there's nothing saying you can't cast the spell in locations where the floor/ground is dirt or sand or plant; I dare you to try doing chalk art on your front lawn, or at a beach.



Edit to add further responses without double posting:


I have a buddy who has that book and he looked up the passage for me. It also says "The destination sigils" aren't recorded in the dungeon so following the NPC is impossible. Which means the circle can't be creating a permanent portal. To the issue of her not having enough time to have set up the circle is easily solved by saying she didn't and simply found and existing circle and claims it as her own. Its likely the writers forgot how long it takes to set one up, and how long it takes to cast the spell to begin with.

One could reason that if you have an EXISTING circle it doesn't take one minute to cast teleportation circle because you don't have to draw anything. But I don't believe that to be the actual rules. And that wouldn't mean you have a permanent portal it'd just mean you can cast the spell as an action.Yeah, having there just having been one here already when she moved in is the best way to handle that discrepancy. It's "her" circle because she claimed it by squatter's rights.

The spell says its casting time is "1 action," and that, "As you cast the spell, you draw a 10-foot-diameter circle on the ground inscribed with sigils that link your location to a permanent teleportation circle of your choice whose sigil sequence you know and that is on the same plane of existence as you." Since its casting time is "1 action" and you do that as you cast it, you somehow scribe that 10-foot-diameter circle and all those sigils all in 1 action (which means you had enough time to jog 30 feet, if you're a standard medium-sized adventurer, and possibly perform some sort of non-spellcasting bonus action, and finish this circle up, all in less than 6 seconds). I suspect magic actually causes the chalk in question to flare out of your hand onto the ground, or something, drawing it for you.

Note that one way to interpret what's written here is that the sigils scribed are what link you to a permanent teleportation circle of your choice. This would seem to back up the assertion that permanent teleportation circles and the ones made by this spell are different. However, casting it in the same spot for a year CAN be used to travel, it just doesn't HAVE to be. And if you're using it to travel and the sigil sequence you scribe is the destination's, you'd be scribing a duplicate of the destination as your new permanent sigil sequence, which obviously isn't what's happening. Even the very last day you cast it, you can use it to teleport as you cast it for the last time, so if its sigil sequence is unique, it can't be the same as the destination you're going to.


No it expressly calls it a portal that appears within a circle you drew linked to a permanent teleportation circle. It doesn't actually call what you created a in a minute a teleportation circle.:smallconfused: The spell is literally called "teleportation circle," and its first sentence describes drawing a 10-foot-diameter circle with sigils inscribed in it. It refers to the destinations as "permanent teleportation circles," implying there's a non-permanent kind. It specifies how to make a "permanent teleportation circle," further implying that you're making non-permanent ones when you cast the spell.

I find this as specious as claiming that the sphere of fire created when you cast fireball is not actually a "fireball" because the spell doesn't say it explicitly is.


Context is actually important to understanding the rules

You've rewritten the spell what does that prove? You didn't just swap some words around you fundamentally changed how it works.

The destination is now determined by the material component, and not by linking to another permanent portal whose address to you know.The way the destination is chosen doesn't actually matter. "A destination you know" could have been the way I wrote it, and my version's functionality wouldn't be altered for the way it's important to this discussion.


Furthermore the original spell refers to the creation of TWO entities the circle which is the destination and the portal which is the means of transportation. You're spell only refers to the creation of the portal it doesn't say how do you create the attuned rune to begin with.The spell actually only refers to the creation of the portal. It says you draw the circle as you cast it, not that the spell creates it. I think you're trying to make a distinction where one doesn't exist.


You've rewritten the spell description to refer to only creating the portal, so that's the only thing the spell can do, so of course its going to create a permanent portal.

Look I can rewrite the spell to 'prove' myself 'right' too.
Rune Portal
5th-level conjuration
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Components: V, M (A ritually-crafted rune, that costs 50gp, which the spell consumes)
Duration: 1 round
As you cast the spell, you press the rune into a flat surface. A shimmering portal large enough for you to walk comfortably through opens centered on the rune as it burns away, and remains open until the end of your next turn. This portal leads to an attuned location that you know of. Any creature that enters the portal instantly appears within 5 feet of the destination or in the nearest unoccupied space if that space is occupied.
Many major temples, guilds, and other important places have attuned locations.

You can create a permanent attuned location by casting this spell in the same location every day for one year. You need not travel through the portal when you cast the spell in this way.Actually, no. You've fundamentally changed it in a way I didn't. I left the important parts for this discussion intact: the fact that the spell creates a portal at an arbitrary location to a fixed destination, and that the "cast it in the same place for a year" involves creating the starting point of the journey, which becomes permanent. You've made it so that it has two distinct functions: creating a starting point portal, or being cast to create a destination point. The fact that the original spell calls out that you need not travel through the portal created each day during the year of re-casting is much more important context than the reference to permanent teleportation circles being the destination.

So, no. You have not altered it to "prove you're right" in the manner I did. All I did was remove reference to "permanent teleportation circles" as the destination. You actively changed what the spell is doing when you do the "make a destination" function, while I left the spell's function intact.

All of that said, my own re-reading of the section in the module both has convinced me that the module writer DID understand the spell as printed in 5e, and that the understanding he went into it with was that a permanent teleportation circle can be used by anybody to open a portal to another permanent teleportation circle if they know the destination's sigil sequence. I won't say he's definitely right, but I actually put more faith into this than I would otherwise, given the way it clearly references important mechanics of the spell's functionality.

Combine that with the exact way it talks about creating "permanent teleportation circles" (and not merely "destination points" or something that would indicate that's their only use) in the spell itself... at a MINIMUM I am convinced they're supposed to obviate the need for the expensive material component, and I'm thinking they're actively magical and just need to be "dialed in" by a user to use them, no spell needed.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I have to leave for work so I can't do a full response but I'll point out one tiny thing.


The spell says its casting time is "1 action," and that, "As you cast the spell, you draw a 10-foot-diameter circle on the ground inscribed with sigils that link your location to a permanent teleportation circle of your choice whose sigil sequence you know and that is on the same plane of existence as you." Since its casting time is "1 action" and you do that as you cast it, you somehow scribe that 10-foot-diameter circle and all those sigils all in 1 action
The casting time is one minute, the duration is one round.

And my main point this whole time has been that a permanent teleportation circle does not contain a permanent portal.

[Segev]

I have to leave for work so I can't do a full response but I'll point out one tiny thing.


The casting time is one minute, the duration is one round.This wouldn't be the first typo in the d20srd.org site for 5e, but here's a link to it: http://5e.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportationCircle.htm

Looking it up in my PHB, the casting time is indeed 1 minute, not 1 action.

Enabling a pre-drawn circle to shorten the time, or a permanent one to do so, would be a boon, though it also doesn't say it does that, and would take more words to explain than implying it just can be directly used by calling it "permanent."


And my main point this whole time has been that a permanent teleportation circle does not contain a permanent portal.

Ah. At the very least, nothing says it does contain a permanent portal, and even the questionable module description doesn't suggest it does, so you are quite possibly right. (I do stand by the module being better thought-out than I initially believed, clearly referencing 5e-only elements of the spell.)

And you're definitely right that it having a permanently-open portal causes more questions than it resolves.

[prabe]

It's hard to determine if the chalk circle remains until scuffed/washed away/erased, or vanishes when the portal does, because 5e says that material components are not consumed unless the spell says they are. Now, teleportation circle says they are, but it also describes the manner in which they're consumed: you use up the chalk making the circle on the ground. The circle on the ground isn't a material component.

As I said upthread, this is probably something you should make clear to your players before they go to cast the spell. My interpretation is that the act of casting the spell binds the magic with the chalk, and the circle goes *plifft* when the duration is over.



I would agree; that's what the wording implies to me, as well. I will note that I copied the wording as exactly as I could from teleportation circle, just removing references to permanent ones existing as the target destinations for the temporary ones being scribbled down as part of the casting of the spell.

Yeah. I got what you were aiming it. You eliminated the part of the description of the teleportation circle spell that disagreed with your interpretation, and you specifically wrote this spell to work the way you're arguing teleportation circle works. It seems pretty clear to me from actually looking at the spell as written in the PHB that teleportation circle isn't written to work that way. I mean, you could houserule so that a permanent circle could be used as an action to teleport to another permanent circle; I don't think the game would break or anything. If the sigils are permanent, it seems harder to argue for changing the destination.



Therefore, it seems reasonable to me to read teleportation circle's references to "permanent teleportation circles" in the same way. Nothing in the spell says they are not permanently open to anybody who knows the sigil sequence for a circle they want to go to.

That said, it also doesn't say they are permanently open. And it certainly provides no means - other than casting the spell - to choose a destiation for one.

A very strict reading (that assumes it stays permanentyl open) would say that each permanent teleportation circle points to a specific other one, and is always open. Note that you appear within 5 feet of the destination circle, so you wouldn't be automatically shunted to the next destination.

It seems more reasonable to me that if the permanent teleportation circles were more than destinations the spell description would say so. It doesn't. That doesn't make the teleportation circle spell useless, though. It's really difficult in 5E to teleport without introducing the possibility of error, after all. Knowing a sigil sequence and having something from where you're going are the two ways that come immediately to mind (though there are various Stupid Tricks available if you have a way to get to other planes).



This is, of course, predicated on the module writer understanding what the spell does. However, having read and re-read the section on this particular one in the module, it seems to me less and less likely that he was confusing it for 3.5's version of the spell. He demonstrates understanding of the sigil sequences and how they're used, which is a strictly 5e invention. (Well, there's also the novels that feature Pug the wizard which have all teleportation involve clearly envisioning the destination, and various wizard guildhalls having unique teleportation chambers with elaborate but easy-to-memorize designs to make it easy to get to them.)

There are enough game features (spells among them) that have changed from one version to another--and it's plausible for a given writer to have written for three different versions--that I wouldn't be surprised if the adventure's writer just pulled up the spell description from the wrong version. it seems more likely than that he was trying to rewrite the spell, at any rate.



The most restrictive way to read it remains that the year of casting just makes a destination. Still takes a spell and components to go to it, and there's no use in going to one as a departure point because you can make one wherever you are.

...curiously, there's nothing saying you can't cast the spell in locations where the floor/ground is dirt or sand or plant; I dare you to try doing chalk art on your front lawn, or at a beach.

I think what you're calling the most restrictive way is probably the correct way--and I suspect it's also the intended way. As to the surface--it's magic; it's pretty reasonable to imagine that the spell empowers the chalk to make a mark on whatever surface you're using. Still doesn't mean someone can read the sigils after you're done.



The spell says its casting time is "1 action," and that, "As you cast the spell, you draw a 10-foot-diameter circle on the ground inscribed with sigils that link your location to a permanent teleportation circle of your choice whose sigil sequence you know and that is on the same plane of existence as you." Since its casting time is "1 action" and you do that as you cast it, you somehow scribe that 10-foot-diameter circle and all those sigils all in 1 action (which means you had enough time to jog 30 feet, if you're a standard medium-sized adventurer, and possibly perform some sort of non-spellcasting bonus action, and finish this circle up, all in less than 6 seconds). I suspect magic actually causes the chalk in question to flare out of your hand onto the ground, or something, drawing it for you.

Actually--I just looked--the spell's casting time is one minute. That's plenty of time to draw a 10-foot-diameter circle. That said, your description is a reasonable interpretation of what casting the spell might look like--and it might link in with the thoughts above about casting the spell on a surface that otherwise you'd be unable to write on with chalk.


Note that one way to interpret what's written here is that the sigils scribed are what link you to a permanent teleportation circle of your choice. This would seem to back up the assertion that permanent teleportation circles and the ones made by this spell are different. However, casting it in the same spot for a year CAN be used to travel, it just doesn't HAVE to be. And if you're using it to travel and the sigil sequence you scribe is the destination's, you'd be scribing a duplicate of the destination as your new permanent sigil sequence, which obviously isn't what's happening. Even the very last day you cast it, you can use it to teleport as you cast it for the last time, so if its sigil sequence is unique, it can't be the same as the destination you're going to.[QUOTE]

I would presume that the final casting would be the one where you'd set the sigils for the permanent circle to be used as a destination. In other spells with similar mechanisms, that's when the spell components are consumed.


[QUOTE=Segev;24489103]:smallconfused: The spell is literally called "teleportation circle," and its first sentence describes drawing a 10-foot-diameter circle with sigils inscribed in it. It refers to the destinations as "permanent teleportation circles," implying there's a non-permanent kind. It specifies how to make a "permanent teleportation circle," further implying that you're making non-permanent ones when you cast the spell.

Yes, and it's pretty clear what you get with each.



Combine that with the exact way it talks about creating "permanent teleportation circles" (and not merely "destination points" or something that would indicate that's their only use) in the spell itself... at a MINIMUM I am convinced they're supposed to obviate the need for the expensive material component, and I'm thinking they're actively magical and just need to be "dialed in" by a user to use them, no spell needed.

Permanent circles probably detect as magic, yes, but it seems clear to me that the permanent circles are destination-only, and the non-permanent circles are outgoing-only. One of the advantages of the non-permanent spell is that you don't have to go to the destination--the teleport spell specifically says you go along if you're teleporting creatures.

[Segev]

Well, teleport is a higher-level spell, so a big advantage of teleportation circle (in 5e) is that it's lower-level. (This is a big change from earlier editions, particularly 3e, wherein teleportation circle was a 9th level spell and was anywhere to anywhere and could be kept open to teleport lots of people over time.)

And my point on the module-writer is that I don't think he had the wrong edition open. His references to sigil sequences and why and how those are important, how the NPC can use them and the PCs can't follow her, and how the PCs CAN use the sequence in the circle that's present at the location, all indicate to me that he knew exactly which spell he was working with and was correct about its functionality. Or at least, correct in that he had the right spell open and was reading it correctly.

It remains an open question whether she really can "slip through," especially with the knowledge that the SRD site I was looking at had the wrong casting time written down, and it actually takes a full minute.

The module writer either believed/intended that the permanet circle allows her to cast the spell with a single action (or less) rather than taking the full minute, or that it enables anybody who knows the right sequence to use the circle to go to their chosen destination without casting a spell.

Granted: this doesn't mean he's right about it doing either of those things, and the former is definitely not supported in the text of the spell.

The latter arguably could be, but requires that "permanent teleportation circle" mean the spell itself is permanent.

Given that, until I was driven to start this thread, I believed it worked as others are arguing, and the permanent circles just served as destinations, I wouldn't argue too strenuously with a DM who ran it that way, though I might try to at least talk him into the notion that they can be used without needing the spell. (The difference being that if he considered it and said "no," I'd shrug and move on, rather than keep pushing it.)

It's tricky, because I can see how and why the spell would actually do what the module describes, now. I can see how you'd read that in what's written there. But it isn't a perfectly obvious reading. And yet... the words "permanent teleportation circle" seem, in analysis, like an odd choice for something that can only serve as a destination when the spell is called teleportation circle.

Without the description of the spell, if I told you it was, "teleportation circle" and that there were "permanent teleportation circles," I doubt anybody would argue with the notion that the latter are usable without recasting the spell, and probably do whatever the spell does, but forever. And nothing in the spell description says that permanent teleportation circles lose the ability to be used to go to another one. It also doesn't specify how you'd use them to do so, though, which is where it becomes shaky. And I acknowledge that it's shaky.

[Zhorn]

It would have been nice if the spell, instead of saying
"You can create a permanent teleportation circle by ..."

had it its place
"You can create a permanent portal by ..."
or
"You can create a permanent sigil sequence by ..."

with both 'portal' and 'sigil sequence' already part of the spells existing text, but being far less ambiguous as to what component of the spell is being given permanence.

[HappyDaze]

This spell lets you create a Stargate. The symbols that you inscribe are for it as an origin--a "home phone number" that will show up and be connected to the permanent "destination" circle. If you make the circle permanent, then it can be used as a destination too. Any teleportation circle (temporary or permanent) can dial any other on the same plane, so long as the caster (yes, the spell has to be cast each time to open the portal) knows the destination sequence. The only advantage of using a permanent portal as an origin is in no longer spending the 50gp component once it becomes permanent.

[Maelynn]

The only advantage of using a permanent portal as an origin is in no longer spending the 50gp component once it becomes permanent.

That's not the only advantage - it will also serve as an easy beacon for people using the Teleport spell.

In my world I wanted to have permanent circles in important buildings, but found it a bit difficult to really grasp the concept of directions the circles point to. I'll use the phone number concept written above, because I think it's a good and simple analogy. So. When you draw a circle, you 'dial the destination number' of a permanent circle to make sure you end up there. Each time you cast the spell, you can 'dial' another number to end up somewhere else. Just draw different sigils. Okay, so far easy enough.

But then you want to make your own permanent circle. You spend a year drawing a circle, with any of the phone numbers you know, until after a year the circle is permanent. So... exactly what is permanent, then? The last phone number you used? Are those sigils permanently inscribed now? Did you have to use the same phone number every casting for it to work? And does that mean the permanent circle is now a one-way circle that only directs to one specific phone number? That wouldn't be useful...

Eventually, I decided upon the following (not sure if it's entirely RAW, but to me it's what makes the most sense - feel free to comment on my decisions):

- a one-time circle can dial any number you know, doesn't have its own number, and vanishes/smudges after 1 round (as per the spell's duration, which I understand as pertaining to the circle you drew - since the spell description is where the portal's duration is mentioned)
- every time you draw a one-time circle, you can choose a different number to dial - even if it's in the same place as previous circles - but still counts for the 'one year' rule
- the moment you draw the one-time circle for its 365th time in the same spot, the circle becomes permanent: the sigils you drew are magically transformed into a new and unique sequence as part of the 'permanentation' process, meaning it now has its own number for other spells to dial (I'm still on the fence about whether or not this happens instantly, rendering the 365th casting useless in favour of the 'permanentation', or that this happens once the duration of the spell expires and the 365th portal closes... inclined towards the latter option, but not sure if that's RAW)
- a permanent circle can no longer be used to teleport from, because it has its own sigils and therefore points to itself, but it can be used as a destination location for people all over the plane who cast the Teleportation Circle or Teleport spells

[MoiMagnus]

The more I read this thread, the more I think the answer should be "depends on your worldbuilding" and not "depends on your interpretation of the rules".
A world where permanent portals can be created by 5th level spells and used by anyone is a world fundamentally different from a world where you have to recast the spell each time. Trade and travels are far different in both worlds.

In the first universe, you just need that one caster that had access to this spell and decided to link those two medium cities with permanent portals, and now traders and travellers can use it without too many constraints, until it is dispelled during pillage or wars (so it could last few centuries in a reasonably peaceful region). In this world, there should be a LOT of permanent portals accumulating around the world unless they are intentionally hunted and destroyed by some group.

In the second universe, you have to pay the services of a (probably quite rare) caster able to cast 5th level spells each time you want to use a teleportation circle. So while most big cities probably have one circle, they are not used very often.

[Answer to the initial question: I think RAW is option 1. I'd totally allow option 2 if players ask for it. And I'd probably create a new spell or magical object for option 3 if I feel it is needed in my worldbuilding.]

[Chronos]

One point that came up once in a game is the question of whether the runes function as coordinates, or as a serial number. IIRC, we had the rune sequence of a circle, but didn't have its location, but did have access to libraries and other such resources. The DM expected that I would do some investigation and research and decode where the location was from the runes, because he was implicitly interpreting them as coordinates, like an address. But it never even occurred to me to try that, even though my character had the appropriate skills, because I was implicitly interpreting it as just a unique identifier, not tied to any particular location, like a phone number. And because neither one of us even realized that we were making an assumption, it took a while to clear up that misunderstanding.

[prabe]

Eventually, I decided upon the following (not sure if it's entirely RAW, but to me it's what makes the most sense - feel free to comment on my decisions):

- a one-time circle can dial any number you know, doesn't have its own number, and vanishes/smudges after 1 round (as per the spell's duration, which I understand as pertaining to the circle you drew - since the spell description is where the portal's duration is mentioned)
- every time you draw a one-time circle, you can choose a different number to dial - even if it's in the same place as previous circles - but still counts for the 'one year' rule
- the moment you draw the one-time circle for its 365th time in the same spot, the circle becomes permanent: the sigils you drew are magically transformed into a new and unique sequence as part of the 'permanentation' process, meaning it now has its own number for other spells to dial (I'm still on the fence about whether or not this happens instantly, rendering the 365th casting useless in favour of the 'permanentation', or that this happens once the duration of the spell expires and the 365th portal closes... inclined towards the latter option, but not sure if that's RAW)
- a permanent circle can no longer be used to teleport from, because it has its own sigils and therefore points to itself, but it can be used as a destination location for people all over the plane who cast the Teleportation Circle or Teleport spells

This is almost entirely consistent with my understanding of the spell as written. I'd be inclined to allow someone to use the last casting to go somewhere, as well. I have written up variants that allowed non-casters to "dial out," but those required some research on the part of the party to discover, and they were pretty easily disabled.

If one interprets the spell ... most conservatively, I guess, then at least three potential problems arise in the adventure that raised this question in the OP's mind. First, the DM might decide that NPC cannot do that, which seems to mean she cannot escape, which might screw up what the adventure has planned for the future. Personally, I don't think it's wise (or, really, good GMing) to expect villain-types to get away, but adventure writers love that crap. Second, the players are going to think that's a cheat--especially if they interpret the spell conservatively/restrictively; pissed off players are more likely to quit on or otherwise break the campaign. Third, players are going to want their characters to be able to do that; while 5E is pretty explicit (at least on the DM-facing side of things) that NPCs/monsters are not congruent with PCs, there's a not-unreasonable presumption that "if that spellcaster can do that, mine can, too."

Personally, I think the adventure would have been better-written if the NPC just had teleport available and just used that.

[Segev]

This is almost entirely consistent with my understanding of the spell as written. I'd be inclined to allow someone to use the last casting to go somewhere, as well. I have written up variants that allowed non-casters to "dial out," but those required some research on the part of the party to discover, and they were pretty easily disabled.

If one interprets the spell ... most conservatively, I guess, then at least three potential problems arise in the adventure that raised this question in the OP's mind. First, the DM might decide that NPC cannot do that, which seems to mean she cannot escape, which might screw up what the adventure has planned for the future. Personally, I don't think it's wise (or, really, good GMing) to expect villain-types to get away, but adventure writers love that crap. Second, the players are going to think that's a cheat--especially if they interpret the spell conservatively/restrictively; pissed off players are more likely to quit on or otherwise break the campaign. Third, players are going to want their characters to be able to do that; while 5E is pretty explicit (at least on the DM-facing side of things) that NPCs/monsters are not congruent with PCs, there's a not-unreasonable presumption that "if that spellcaster can do that, mine can, too."

Personally, I think the adventure would have been better-written if the NPC just had teleport available and just used that.

The NPC in question is CR 21, and has variations from the base statblock which, if anything, increase her CR (though they're probably actually mostly neutral). While the statblock doesn't say she has teleport prepared, she has 7th level slots and her variations say she can swap out any spell in the statblock for any other wizard spell. And the stat block does have plane shift on it if she needed a one action emergency dimensional shift. I am positive the reason the encounter is written with her leaving rather than fighting has everything to do with the module writers expecting a fight to the death with her to be death for the sub-6th-level-party that is expected to meet her (conceivably, but highly unlikely, as early as level 1, if only by virtue of random encounters before you get that far).

So, as written, she absolutely can have teleport prepared and use it. She has plane shift prepared if the DM doesn't do any modifications (even those allowed by the explicit writeup in the module). I'm pretty sure the writers included the permanent teleportation circle for two reasons:

It is the sort of thing the kind of organized mages'...organization...would do, especially if it works without needing a 7th level spell slot, and
it does provide the PCs with a permanent teleportation circle they can use.


Especially if permanent teleportation circles don't require a spell (5th level or otherwise) to use for outgoing, it's conceivable that they'd have, say, the means of getting a Merchant Prince's personal permanent teleportation circle, or maybe the one at the Temple of Saavras, which would make this a useful shortcut for them.

Note that there is no claim in the module that any such circles exist in Port Nyanzaru. They would have to be an invention by the DM. But the module itself does speak of the PCs learning the sigil sequence, so it's clear it's intended that it be a potential redoubt to which they could return.

The lack of any specified permanent teleportation circles in Port Nyanzaru is a huge missed opportunity, now that I think about it: The default introduction is being hired by Syndra Sylvane, who is close friends with the Merchant Prince in charge of all things magical in the city. She teleports - via the 7th level spell - everyone to the middle of the Harbor Ward. It notes she "knows it well enough to arrive on target." It's a harbor: having a permanent teleportation circle there, near the harbormaster's office, would make sense, and would eliminate the minor hand-wave of not bothering to check to see if she arrived off-target. Alternatively, she might know her good friend's personal permanenet teleportation circle's sigil sequence, in which case she could go straight there. Heck, she might have her OWN personal permanent teleportation circle, and use that to get there.

The two narrative reasons not to do those last two things would be to have the party arrive at the lavishly-described outdoor scene in Port Nyanzaru (rather than in the middle of a merchant prince's home), and to avoid giving the PCs a "way back" out of Chult and thus out of the adventure.

This does assume that it wouldn't take a 5th level spell to activate the circle, but still.

It's a missed opportunity to further integrate the mechanics.

Assuming I were both writing the module and understood permanent teleportation circles not to need spells to open them (just knowledge of the sigil sequences of destination circles), I would have had the text in the first chapter referring to getting to Chult say something like:

"Syndra only moved into her current home a few months ago, and has not yet begun inscribing a permanent teleportation circle, but she knows the sigil sequence for the permanent teleportation circle in the Harbor Ward of Port Nyanzaru and will cast teleportation circle to transit everyone there."

If I wanted her to show off, I'd have her cast teleport, instead, but it's needless if I use the permanent teleportation circle idea.

In the Fane of the Night Serpent, Ras Nsi has special teleporters with serpentine sigils on them that he can (and only he is allowed to) use to teleport to the other ones. They cost no action and just bip him from one slither to the next. Any character with proficiency in Arcana who can make a DC 20 check can also activate them; having a destination in mind takes you to the one you want, and lacking a destination takes you to a random one.

It expressly notes that Ras Nsi created these. He's been here for years; the only reason for them not to be permanent teleportation circles rather than a unique magical creation is if a) the writers didn't want PCs teleporting to them via teleportation circle (little prevents teleport from taking you here, especially if you steal something from the locale), b) permanent teleportation circles take more than a non-action to activate, or c) permanent teleportation circles can't be outgoing.

Well, or d) they didn't want Ras Nsi or any other Arcane-savvy yuan-ti using them to escape the Fane entirely.

There's also the highly-likely possibility that the writers didn't even think about the existence of teleportation circle when they conceived these raised platforms.

Ras Nsi doesn't have teleportation circle listed in his statblock, but he also is a 20th level spellcaster and they're noted to be "wizard spells," so that doesn't mean he couldn't have it prepared and have used it in the past.

Regardless, at least whoever wrote the NPC in question seemed to believe that you need no special spells prepared to use a permanent teleportation circle as outgoing transit. Whether he believed it took an action or a non-action (as described in the more major spoiler block), it's clear he thought using it to "slip out" was all she needed, because though her specific description says she can trade out spells, it doesn't say she specifically has teleport nor teleportation circle prepared.



So, some additional thoughts, regardless of whether it's usable sans spell or not: given that you can potentially put permanent teleportation circles in sailing vessels or airships, could you put one on, say, a rug? A nice, 12-foot-square area rug would be cumbersome to lug around, but would be potentially worth it. Technically, by the wording of teleportation circle, it wouldn't even have to be unrolled to use it as a destination: people who step through the portal appear within 5 feet of the destination circle, meaning you could have it rolled up on the back of a donkey and people going to it would just pop in next to said donkey.

Obviously, the rug is worth a minimum of 18,250 gp, and probably more than that if the PCs didn't make it, themselves. But even if teleportation circle is required to use it every time (rather than being able to unroll it and just use it without a spell slot), such an item carried with an adventuring party would enable them to go back to a trusted base every evening, and 'port to their last location the next morning. It would cost two fifth-level slots, but that's technically cheaper than the 1 7th level slot of, say, Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion every night for a secure and comfortable rest.

Sure, there are risks that some nefarious individual will get ahold of their rug overnight. They may want to camp there and just use it for quick jaunts back to base for trading purposes or the like. But it'd still be quite useful.

Of course, if anybody can use it without a spell as long as they know the sigil sequence and have another permanent teleportation circle to work with, it becomes even better. Setting up a watch over the camp while everyone who isn't on watch is sleeping securely back home is even safer.

Whatever the interpretation of the spell, such an item seems invaluable to a party who can use it. If it's doable.

How many such rugs do you think might exist if they're viable?

[MoiMagnus]

So, some additional thoughts, regardless of whether it's usable sans spell or not: given that you can potentially put permanent teleportation circles in sailing vessels or airships, could you put one on, say, a rug?

The only RAW hints we have for that are "you draw a 10-foot-diameter circle on the ground" and "You can create a permanent teleportation circle by casting this spell in the same location every day for one year."

So there is a reasonable argument to be made for the point in space where the circle was draw being linked by the portal and not the surfaced used.
And assuming you trace a circle on the ground, then remove that part of the ground to take it elsewhere, I think it is a reasonable DM call to say that that any of the the following happens:
1) The teleportation circle is broken. Unfortunately, there is absolutely no direct information on "what breaks a permanent teleportation circles". But if I had to bet on one of them being RAI, this would be this one.
2) The teleportation point is unmoved, and the "circle" is just no longer visible since the ground it was traced on is no longer here. The drawn circle on the piece of ground moved is now useless.
3) The teleportation point is moved with the ground. (In which case teleportation circles on ship & co are fair game).
4) The teleportation circle is unusable until the ground is put back at the same location where the circle was initially drawn.

Another point to consider is whether the "on the ground" implicitly requires a direct link to earth itself, or is just an indication that the circle must be horizontally drawn and accessed from the top, or is just an indication on how peoples actually do it and there would be no problem to draw it on a wall.

[prabe]

]The NPC in question is CR 21, and has variations from the base statblock which, if anything, increase her CR (though they're probably actually mostly neutral). While the statblock doesn't say she has teleport prepared, she has 7th level slots and her variations say she can swap out any spell in the statblock for any other wizard spell. And the stat block does have plane shift on it if she needed a one action emergency dimensional shift. I am positive the reason the encounter is written with her leaving rather than fighting has everything to do with the module writers expecting a fight to the death with her to be death for the sub-6th-level-party that is expected to meet her (conceivably, but highly unlikely, as early as level 1, if only by virtue of random encounters before you get that far).

That sounds like a published adventure, all right. I'm not a huge fan of showing the players a problem their PCs can't solve yet (as opposed, I guess, to a problem they can't solve at all), but I can see writing her to preferentially avoid fights as a way to avoid TPKs.

So, some additional thoughts, regardless of whether it's usable sans spell or not: given that you can potentially put permanent teleportation circles in sailing vessels or airships, could you put one on, say, a rug? A nice, 12-foot-square area rug would be cumbersome to lug around, but would be potentially worth it. Technically, by the wording of teleportation circle, it wouldn't even have to be unrolled to use it as a destination: people who step through the portal appear within 5 feet of the destination circle, meaning you could have it rolled up on the back of a donkey and people going to it would just pop in next to said donkey.

Obviously, the rug is worth a minimum of 18,250 gp, and probably more than that if the PCs didn't make it, themselves. But even if teleportation circle is required to use it every time (rather than being able to unroll it and just use it without a spell slot), such an item carried with an adventuring party would enable them to go back to a trusted base every evening, and 'port to their last location the next morning. It would cost two fifth-level slots, but that's technically cheaper than the 1 7th level slot of, say, Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion every night for a secure and comfortable rest.

Sure, there are risks that some nefarious individual will get ahold of their rug overnight. They may want to camp there and just use it for quick jaunts back to base for trading purposes or the like. But it'd still be quite useful.

Of course, if anybody can use it without a spell as long as they know the sigil sequence and have another permanent teleportation circle to work with, it becomes even better. Setting up a watch over the camp while everyone who isn't on watch is sleeping securely back home is even safer.

Whatever the interpretation of the spell, such an item seems invaluable to a party who can use it. If it's doable.

How many such rugs do you think might exist if they're viable?

That's ... not a horrible idea, but I see two potential problems. First, you need to leave the rug behind if you're going to be teleporting back to it--if you send part of the party back home, you're less than full strength if something attacks in the night; if you don't set a watch there's no guarantee it'll be where you left it, or that there won't be hostiles waiting for you. Second, there's always the possibility that some hostile spellcaster will learn that sigil seqence--per the book, there's no restrictions on which sequences you learn when you learn the spell, so someone could in principle decide to learn the one rolled up in the rug. Sounds like the sort of thing some DMs would allow just so they could torment the party.

[Segev]

Another point to consider is whether the "on the ground" implicitly requires a direct link to earth itself, or is just an indication that the circle must be horizontally drawn and accessed from the top, or is just an indication on how peoples actually do it and there would be no problem to draw it on a wall.

All good questions. Defining "ground" can be hard, too. If I say "lay down on the ground," to somebody on the second floor of a building, do they assume I mean to go downstairs and outside to lay down? Or do they assume "ground" is synonymous with "floor" in this case?

Does it cease to be "ground" if you cut it out of the surrounding stone or earth?

Is a pile of dirt dug out by mold earth and shoved to the side "ground?" Does whether it's piled on other earth or on a tarp matter? Does hoisting it up with the tarp (which we'll say turns out to be a very strong carpet of flying) make it "not ground" when it was "ground" moments before?

And, yes, does its orientation actually matter? Or is it just colloquial because, as you said, most people draw it on the ground?


What does the shimmering portal even look like? Is it incongruously a flat oval in mid-air over the center of the circle? Is it an ovoid (3-dimensional)? Is it a circular portal on the ground that fills the circle drawn, so anybody who steps into that circle "falls through" and rotates to stand next to it? Does a cylinder of shimmering light fill the space above the circle? Does a sphere of shimmering light swell up to form a ten-foot-diameter dome?

Consider just how big a 10-foot diameter circle is, too. Is the portal filling the space, or relatively small within it? I mean, a 10-foot-diameter dome is the space of Leomund's tiny hut!

[Segev]

That sounds like a published adventure, all right. I'm not a huge fan of showing the players a problem their PCs can't solve yet (as opposed, I guess, to a problem they can't solve at all), but I can see writing her to preferentially avoid fights as a way to avoid TPKs.Her role in the module isn't technically that of an antagonist; if fighting breaks out, it's because the PCs literally start the fight. Her goals are such that she'll be moderately helpful even if she expects the party to later work against her.

Valindra Shadowmantle is the NPC, and she'll try to convince the PCs that she's a harmless scholar who wants to "imprison" the Soulmonger "for study." But even if the PCs figure out she's the highest-ranking Red Wizard in the area and that she wants the Soulmonger for explicitly villainous, pro-Thayan purposes that may not end the Death Curse, she'll give them information to get them to where they need and want to be because she thinks they'll wreck up some of the defenses for her, and she has no reason to fight them here and now. They're more useful to her even opposing her goals at this stage. If they do pick a fight, she lets her minions handle it and "slips through her permanent teleportation circle back to Thay," and the sigil sequence for her home circle is nowhere in the location, so she can't be followed.


That's ... not a horrible idea, but I see two potential problems. First, you need to leave the rug behind if you're going to be teleporting back to it--if you send part of the party back home, you're less than full strength if something attacks in the night; if you don't set a watch there's no guarantee it'll be where you left it, or that there won't be hostiles waiting for you. Second, there's always the possibility that some hostile spellcaster will learn that sigil seqence--per the book, there's no restrictions on which sequences you learn when you learn the spell, so someone could in principle decide to learn the one rolled up in the rug. Sounds like the sort of thing some DMs would allow just so they could torment the party.
The GM could absolutely screw you that way, but it's worth noting that it's the GM, not the player (and definitely not the character) who decides which two permanent teleportation circles' sigil sequences you learn when you learn the spell. So, while he could give a random (or not-so-random antagonistic) NPC the sigil sequence when said NPC learns the spell, he'd either have to claim that they just magically (heh) appear in your mind when you learn it, or find a way to justify why your closely-guarded secret of a sigil sequence is one of the two the NPC happened to learn.

I think the reason the GM picks them is because the GM knows which are publically available or reasonably available to the PC, and chooses them based on how the PC learns the spell and what contacts and connections he has.

Were I to modify Port Nyanzaru such that the Harbor Ward has a permanent teleportation circle, for instance, I'd probably say that, should the wizard in my party learn teleportation circle, the circle in the harbor ward is one of those he learns. He's lived in the city for years, and doubtless has seen it before. He's also a worshipper of Saavras, so if that temple had one, he might learn it (instead, unless I had no better ones to give him).

[prabe]

The GM could absolutely screw you that way, but it's worth noting that it's the GM, not the player (and definitely not the character) who decides which two permanent teleportation circles' sigil sequences you learn when you learn the spell. So, while he could give a random (or not-so-random antagonistic) NPC the sigil sequence when said NPC learns the spell, he'd either have to claim that they just magically (heh) appear in your mind when you learn it, or find a way to justify why your closely-guarded secret of a sigil sequence is one of the two the NPC happened to learn.

I think the reason the GM picks them is because the GM knows which are publically available or reasonably available to the PC, and chooses them based on how the PC learns the spell and what contacts and connections he has.

Yeah. I was thinking if the PCs found such a thing (as opposed to making it themselves) then someone else might have seen the sigil sequence for it (or a record thereof), and might have heard that the PCs have it. It's defensible, though definitely a bit of a hose-job.

People in my world are varying degrees of paranoid about permanent circles. I have one NPC who destroyed the permanent circle in his library (and then later re-established it), and another who put up a permanent illusion of a regular floor over the one in his. The PCs have destroyed two, by destroying the surface the circles were on.

[Keravath]

I think there is another important aspect to Teleportation Circle. A permanent teleportation circle provides an error free destination for both the Plane Shift spell and the Teleport spell. Teleportation circle isn't the only spell that can use the circles as a destination, it is just the lowest level one.

Anyway, my reading is that the spell isn't intended to create a permanent link, it is used to establish a new permanent teleportation circle that can be used as the destination for several spells if the sigil sequence is known. The spell itself says nothing about creating a permanent link or portal, only about creating a permanent circle. The text of several spells indicates a permanent circle can be used as a destination but nothing more is mentioned.

[Maelynn]

Third, players are going to want their characters to be able to do that; while 5E is pretty explicit (at least on the DM-facing side of things) that NPCs/monsters are not congruent with PCs, there's a not-unreasonable presumption that "if that spellcaster can do that, mine can, too."

This is a valid point and one that I find myself bringing up every time I come up with cool stuff for NPCs. With everything I create, I ask myself "how would I feel about this if I were a player? Would I think it's fair?". The thing is, even if a player acknowledges the fact that sometimes NPCs can just do things a PC can't, there's a risk it creates a lingering feeling of unfairness. Especially when it's something that a PC also has access to, like the Teleportation Circle spell. I can see how this module would be too able to create this feeling, and I'm inclined to agree it would've been better to have her cast Teleport instead.



So, some additional thoughts, regardless of whether it's usable sans spell or not: given that you can potentially put permanent teleportation circles in sailing vessels or airships, could you put one on, say, a rug?

The only RAW hints we have for that are "you draw a 10-foot-diameter circle on the ground" and "You can create a permanent teleportation circle by casting this spell in the same location every day for one year."

So there is a reasonable argument to be made for the point in space where the circle was draw being linked by the portal and not the surfaced used.
And assuming you trace a circle on the ground, then remove that part of the ground to take it elsewhere, I think it is a reasonable DM call to say that that any of the the following happens:
1) The teleportation circle is broken. Unfortunately, there is absolutely no direct information on "what breaks a permanent teleportation circles". But if I had to bet on one of them being RAI, this would be this one.
2) The teleportation point is unmoved, and the "circle" is just no longer visible since the ground it was traced on is no longer here. The drawn circle on the piece of ground moved is now useless.
3) The teleportation point is moved with the ground. (In which case teleportation circles on ship & co are fair game).
4) The teleportation circle is unusable until the ground is put back at the same location where the circle was initially drawn.

Another point to consider is whether the "on the ground" implicitly requires a direct link to earth itself, or is just an indication that the circle must be horizontally drawn and accessed from the top, or is just an indication on how peoples actually do it and there would be no problem to draw it on a wall.

To me, the location is the more important aspect of the two emphasised parts. Even if it were possible to create a permanent circle on a rug, or to drill out the piece of concrete the circle is on and toss it onto a Tenser's Floating Disk, then it's the location that makes it impossible to move the circle without breaking its connection. I see it as a year-long manipulation of the plane, establishing a permanent point that serves as a conduit for the energy flows created by teleportation spells. A Fixed Point in Time Space, so to say.* :smallwink:

Looking at my interpretation of the spell, point 2 would be impossible because the sigil sequence (the 'phone number') is no longer attached to the teleportation point - anyone 'dialing' that number would not be able to connect to the point.

This means that I'm mostly in favour of option 1. And in that same reasoning options 3 and 4 would not happen, as a broken connection would have to be re-established and would therefore, at least imho, take another year to do so.

* no, not Hausdorff... Dr. Who. *grins*

[Zirconia]

As another option for the creative DMs out there, in a Lawrence Watt-Evans book entitled "With a Single Spell", there are transporting tapestries which take you from one scene/location to another scene/location, with the proviso that the scenes need to exactly match. If they don't, because of a temporary change like the angle of daylight, you don't transport until they do.

I can imagine adventurers finding a permanent teleport circle, with a smudge or a straw lying across one of the "address" runes. They clean up the rune, and the being (friendly or hostile) which has been stuck in transport for days, months or centuries, pops out. Shenanigans ensue. . .