Plate Armor

[thereaper]

At about what level should PCs be able to afford a suit of plate?

[LordCdrMilitant]

At about what level should PCs be able to afford a suit of plate?

My 2c? Level 4, or earlier.

It is my opinion that heavy armor is too highly devalued by the fact that Dex adds to AC in addition to it's other benefits. I would like heavy armor of choice to be available to characters early, so that heavy armor characters AC's can stay above Dex characters.


Thus, Level 4 is when the first ASI comes online, and a DEX character moves to 16 AC, possibly/probably 17 if you rolled stats, which equals or exceeds the heavy armored characters AC, and thus he should have his armor upgrade available to him as well.

[MaxWilson]

At about what level should PCs be able to afford a suit of plate?

Totally depends, but if you go by DMG treasure tables (https://dungeonmastertools.github.io/treasure.html) they make about 5 gp off of each CR 0-4 monster they kill (not counting treasure hordes), plus at least ~300 gp off of each treasure horde, so if they scrimp and save and spend money on nothing, they should have accumulated 1500 gp for one suit of plate armor by the time they've killed 100 monsters and found three or four treasure hordes. Since 10 goblins is a Medium encounter for a level 4 party, and they're supposed to be able to handle about five of those encounters before needing a long rest, it's probably not too ridiculous to theorycraft that PCs who really want to should be able to afford plate armor as early as level 4 if not earlier.

But really, it depends. You could get it as early as level 1 just by killing an Orog and taking its plate armor.

[Whiskeyjack8044]

I make it available around level 5. My players have to commission it and it's a lengthy and expensive process to get it.

[Cheesegear]

At about what level should PCs be able to afford a suit of plate?

Somewhere between 3-5.
Definitely before Tier 2.

[DrKerosene]

I think the ideal window is typically “some time after achieving level 5 & probably before reaching level 6”.

If a Party of 4 wants to pool their resources for one set of Fullplate, then they could get it as early as level 4.

At least, according to this article: https://www.enworld.org/threads/deconstructing-5e-typical-wealth-by-level.402507/

[HappyDaze]

For us, it usually becomes a reasonable purchase around 5th level. This is because we often have lots of other stuff to spend money on, like training costs and living expenses, that some games don't use.

[Dork_Forge]

Between levels 6-8 before you can have it commissioned, then unless the party is in a longer stretch of down time they'd likely wait a short arc to collect it. It's the grail mundane item, so besides the cost seeming a little unreasonable (imo of course) for a single player to attain before that point (with paying cost of living, regular supplies like rations etc.) it kind of leaves that player in a place where they have nothing else to spend their gold on unless you have a robust shopping system.

Edit: I also don't allow a player to just don plate they've found/looted. Depending on the quality of the plate and the size of the creature they may be able to have it altered to fit though.

[NorthernPhoenix]

I'd say between 5 and 6, but i try to emphasize to people that having super-AC as early as possible isn't hyper-critical to their play. It's OK to take a hit or two. Though i can sorta empathize with people who have previously played with "killer DMs", i try to wean people off that mentality.

[KorvinStarmast]

But really, it depends. You could get it as early as level 1 just by killing an Orog and taking its plate armor. Yep. We've done that a few times. (Dwarf proficiency with Smiths Tools doesn't hurt ..)

[Corsair14]

I usually go 4 or 5 to have one made. If my current party found everything or decided to actually barter they could likely afford it sooner. I do have my own Masterwork armor that is able to be found which weighs 3/4 of regular armor and cut a point from the dex reduction that can be found sooner. As for finding actual plate or even a breast plate, there is a very high chance they wont be able to wear it or if they do it will cut down even more of their dex. Real world example, I fight in the SCA and had a Greek musculata chestplate from a Roman persona I had prior to changing it and 4 years at the gym. I tried putting it on earlier this year and it wasn't even remotely possible. Kept digging into my chest, couldn't close the sides ect, hell, I had a hard time taking it off and though I was going to need help. For ease of game play you can have an armor shop with on the shelf armors but realistically most suits of plate or scale were commissioned and built on demand and not just made generically. Chain is a different story and actual leather armor as far as we know didn't exist in the form we have it in DnD.

[Keravath]

In the long run, regular plate armor only amounts to +1AC over the other cheaper options. It really isn't a big deal. The reason you don't hand it out at first level is because it feels like an accomplishment to the player to finally acquire enough wealth to have their own suit of plate armor commissioned and fitted to them.

I'd probably aim for levels 4-6 depending on the amount of gold you are introducing into the world. Make it feel like an accomplishment though :)

[stoutstien]

In the long run, regular plate armor only amounts to +1AC over the other cheaper options. It really isn't a big deal. The reason you don't hand it out at first level is because it feels like an accomplishment to the player to finally acquire enough wealth to have their own suit of plate armor commissioned and fitted to them.

I'd probably aim for levels 4-6 depending on the amount of gold you are introducing into the world. Make it feel like an accomplishment though :)

It never really feels like accomplishments. it's closer to a tax to maintain a slight edge of AC over light armor users.

I split the difference with my players and offer splint at lv 1. Having the second best type of armor lines up with the others with leather and scale.

[47Ace]

I am really not sure and like what other have suggested. I often see people suggesting that you should have the best non magical armor available by level 3 but that seem strange to me. What I had determined a little while ago was that if the dex character could have an 18 str characters should have splint (level 4 PB, 1 rolling) and if dex character could have an 20 str characters should have plate(level 6/8 pb, 4 rolling)

[LordCdrMilitant]

I am really not sure and like what other have suggested. I often see people suggesting that you should have the best non magical armor available by level 3 but that seem strange to me. What I had determined a little while ago was that if the dex character could have an 18 str characters should have splint (level 4 PB, 1 rolling) and if dex character could have an 20 str characters should have plate(level 6/8 pb, 4 rolling)

Most of us are saying 4, 5, or 6, which is... around the time a light armor dex based character gets the AC17.

That said, I also believe in distributing it earlier, because the heavy armor character should be better protected than the light armor character, that's the point of having all that armor and the penalties to like half of everything it entails.



I wouldn't actually be too opposed to just letting a character who would start with Chainmail start with Plate, particularly if we were using rolled stats. AC like doesn't go up all campaign for most characters after the very beginning of the game, so it's not really important or progression disrupting and will help the heavy armor character feel more unique and empowered by being able to wear heavy armor.

[MaxWilson]

Most of us are saying 4, 5, or 6, which is... around the time a light armor dex based character gets the AC18.

I believe 47Ace was referring to 18 Dex, not AC 18.

(Yes, I realize that 18 Dex equates to AC 16 in studded leather, or AC 18 in studded leather + shield, which puts split mail + shield ahead at AC 19.)

[LordCdrMilitant]

I believe 47Ace was referring to 18 Dex, not AC 18.

(Yes, I realize that 18 Dex equates to AC 16 in studded leather, or AC 18 in studded leather + shield, which puts split mail + shield ahead at AC 19.)

Sorry, I meant AC17. Dex characters top at 17/19. But one point of AC in exchange for disadvantage on stealth and 1500GP, seems like a pretty short deal.

[Dark.Revenant]

Considering that plate armor is strangely expensive compared to the other armor types (given historical prices for protective gear and other goods), the design intent is probably to artificially delay the acquisition of it. Generally speaking, depending on the amount of treasure and the degree of cooperation/luck, plate armor would be gained sometime between level 4 and level 8, inclusive. Players should definitely not feel entitled to getting plate armor before tier 2, but a player who still hasn't gotten it (despite trying to acquire some) by mid-tier-2 is likely justified in feeling shortchanged.

[diplomancer]

I'd say slightly later, between 6-7. 8th is when Dex characters will probably have maxed their dexterity and thus their AC, but they have to spend a lot less money to get that benefit. So 1-2 levels before it sounds about right.

It's also around the same moment druids should get non-metallic breastplates or half-plate.

[47Ace]

Sorry, I meant AC17. Dex characters top at 17/19. But one point of AC in exchange for disadvantage on stealth and 1500GP, seems like a pretty short deal.

I agree its a short deal. By point was more about they should never get a shorter deal then that. I was trying (poorly apparently) to say that heavy armor should be acquired such that they always have at least 1 point of AC advantage. This is coming from someone who in one campaign still has splint at level 5 (the rouge has 20 dex) and has become a merchant in an attempt to make enough to be able to afford plate. In another campaign I still have chain mail at level 8 because the DM doesn't like handing out money.

[Tanarii]

IMX sometime after achieving level 5, but before 7.

If you're getting it before Tier 2 either your DM (or the module) was being generous with treasure, or your party was saving up to buy it for you. The latter is entirely possible, nothing says players cannot loan or give each other their shares of loot, nor that loot must be individual at all.

[MaxWilson]

IMX sometime after achieving level 5, but before 7.

If you're getting it before Tier 2 either your DM (or the module) was being generous with treasure, or your party was saving up to buy it for you. The latter is entirely possible, nothing says players cannot loan or give each other their shares of loot, nor that loot must be individual at all.

Or you were fighting Tier 2 stuff and claiming Tier 2 rewards while still in Tier 1. A single CR 5 treasure hoard can buy two sets of plate with change left over.

[Tanarii]

Or you were fighting Tier 2 stuff and claiming Tier 2 rewards while still in Tier 1. A single CR 5 treasure hoard can buy two sets of plate with change left over.Sure. I guess it depends what kind of fights puts their Hoards behind.

You make me think of a point where the Hoard table breaks down a bit. A single CR 5 creature is not easier than four CR 4s. Grouping the Hoards table by CR defeats the purpose of encounter difficulties a bit.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

At about what level should PCs be able to afford a suit of plate?

Level 1.

If you have a heavy armor wearing fighter, first main quest should give them a set so that their character is complete.

[Zhorn]

I'm going to throw my vote behind the tier 2 group.
Ultimately it does come down to how fast you hand out loot and in what quantities. If playing through a published module, you'll usually get enough gold to individually afford plate by the end of tier 1 with a bit of saving, or somewhere near the start if the group is pooling resources.
Outside of that, treasure drop rates should be high enough by tier 2 to afford plate with little to no saving for it in particular.

[MaxWilson]

Sure. I guess it depends what kind of fights puts their Hoards behind.

You make me think of a point where the Hoard table breaks down a bit. A single CR 5 creature is not easier than four CR 4s. Grouping the Hoards table by CR defeats the purpose of encounter difficulties a bit.

Yeah, the closer you look at the DMG treasure tables the stranger they seem. The idea behind random treasure tables is sound, but the breakpoints are weird, they don't go above CR 20, and they give out way too much cash at high CR.

And frankly, CR is a lazy metric on which to base treasure anyway. There's no good reason why a hobgoblin warlord who rules a city-state should have only 3000-4000 gp worth of treasure in his palace, while the mindless Purple Worm that lives in his moat has ~20,000 gp worth of gold and platinum coins in its lair.

One suspects that the treasure tables were written with PC level in mind, not actual monster CR.

[diplomancer]

Level 1.

If you have a heavy armor wearing fighter, first main quest should give them a set so that their character is complete.

Does the wizard also find a spellbook with every wizard spell in the game on that same main quest? Is a fighter "complete" without a magical weapon when so many monsters have resistance to non-magical attacks?

An uncommon Instrument of the Bards is cheaper than Plate. Is a Bard "incomplete" without it? Is a Druid "incomplete" without a non-metal breastplate? Do you also let the monk start with 20 dex and 20 wis (for the sake of this question, let's say that the monk starts with these stats "on loan", he still has to pay for them with ASIs)

It's ok to have your characters improve during the campaign, you don't need to give them all they want at level 1.

(Also, the math of the game means that giving plate at level 1 will make it too hard for appropriate CR creatures to hit the fighter)

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Does the wizard also find a spellbook with every wizard spell in the game on that same main quest? Is a fighter "complete" without a magical weapon when so many monsters have resistance to non-magical attacks?

An uncommon Instrument of the Bards is cheaper than Plate. Is a Bard "incomplete" without it? Is a Druid "incomplete" without a non-metal breastplate? Do you also let the monk start with 20 dex and 20 wis (for the sake of this question, let's say that the monk starts with these stats "on loan", he still has to pay for them with ASIs)

It's ok to have your characters improve during the campaign, you don't need to give them all they want at level 1.

(Also, the math of the game means that giving plate at level 1 will make it too hard for appropriate CR creatures to hit the fighter)

Did you just equate every spell with a set of plate armor?

Thanks for the laugh, I needed that!

[HappyDaze]

My players have discovered that the cost of a single suit of Plate can often be better spent hiring the services of a half-dozen mercenaries for a few months at a time.

[Zhorn]

Did you just equate every spell with a set of plate armor?

Thanks for the laugh, I needed that!
https://i.imgur.com/x1jWBog.gif
What diplomancer is getting at is the concept of character progression. If you rush to GIVE your players everything earlier you'll either run into the issue of stretches of levels without upgrades, or a powercreep issue of constantly trying to one-up the last upgrade they got from just one level prior.
Pacing is a key component in progression style character advancement, and regular gear plays into that just as much as as spells and magic items.
Then there's also the 'all that useless gold' issue if you are rewarding players with the exact items they want rather than them saving up and buying/making it themselves.
The cost of Plate Armor puts it as an appropriate treasure range for teir 2 if you want it as a reward, any sooner should be up the the player to make an effort towards getting it.

[MoiMagnus]

If for some gameplay reasons, you want your PCs to have their plate armour early on (and other costly materials, like a boat), you can always bind them into a loan contract. (With the Player's agreement, obviously)
It can even gives you an easy justifications for the first few quests.

[Pleh]

I'd say between 5 and 6, but i try to emphasize to people that having super-AC as early as possible isn't hyper-critical to their play. It's OK to take a hit or two. Though i can sorta empathize with people who have previously played with "killer DMs", i try to wean people off that mentality.


In the long run, regular plate armor only amounts to +1AC over the other cheaper options. It really isn't a big deal. The reason you don't hand it out at first level is because it feels like an accomplishment to the player to finally acquire enough wealth to have their own suit of plate armor commissioned and fitted to them.

I'd probably aim for levels 4-6 depending on the amount of gold you are introducing into the world. Make it feel like an accomplishment though :)


https://i.imgur.com/x1jWBog.gif
What diplomancer is getting at is the concept of character progression. If you rush to GIVE your players everything earlier you'll either run into the issue of stretches of levels without upgrades, or a powercreep issue of constantly trying to one-up the last upgrade they got from just one level prior.
Pacing is a key component in progression style character advancement, and regular gear plays into that just as much as as spells and magic items.
Then there's also the 'all that useless gold' issue if you are rewarding players with the exact items they want rather than them saving up and buying/making it themselves.
The cost of Plate Armor puts it as an appropriate treasure range for teir 2 if you want it as a reward, any sooner should be up the the player to make an effort towards getting it.

I dunno. My most recent character was a level 2 paladin of conquest. Looking at his spell options, it became immediately obvious most of their spells are Concentration. They are front line, concentration casters with no native proficiency to Con saves.

That little +1 AC feels pretty significant to me when looking at those options, especially when I'm actually hoping to upgrade to magically reinforced armor later.

It definitely doesn't *feel* like I'm being offered a later reward. It feels like an artificial tax or handicap to say, "we'll take off the training wheels and let you be actually cool later."

[Nero24200]

I feel weird since I don't mind plate being available at Level 1. I look at it as equipment needed for heavy armour characters. To use the wizard spell-book analogy, I see it more on the same level as starting a wizard without access to a full school of magic, for example.

This is especially the case with dex based characters like rogues or monks, who, outwith maybe magic items, have no real need to "save up" in a sense for better gear.

If it was something more universal I wouldn't mind as much. If rogues needed a specific item that would otherwise limit their sneak attack, and it was available to level 7 or 8, it'd be a different story.

Though it should be noted that I think it's weird wizards need money to transfer spells to their spellbook, another element I'm happy to wave.

[Eriol]

Given the lack of substantial AC differences between a high-dex light-armor wearing player and a heavy-armor wearing player, I tend towards giving it earlier.

That said, one thing I haven't seen talked about too much is the prevalence of magic items in the setting. That tips the balance as well, as what does cash mean, how much can they (reasonably) be asked to pay given the existence of +1 splint, or even +2 studded? That tips the balance in some ways too.

[ScoutTrooper]

You've already got a lot of good input, I'm soaking all this in. I've ran my first 5e game, and I'm kind of experimenting. I've thrown plenty of treasure hordes at my players. The paladin in the group was the only one intent on getting plate mail. He was level 5 once he got it. However, he picked it up after they defeated a Helmed Horror. I do believe the only one who could have purchased it at the time was the Bard, whom has perfect attendance for sessions.

I would have allowed commissions, downtime activity to smith it or just to fund the commission.

It seems on average, the post is saying ~level 4.5 Which makes sense to me, I've discovered that after level 3 when all classes should be turned on to their subclass, right before 5 when the Extra Attacks start dropping. You can start to throw more specialized mobs at the party, forcing your high AC players to make saves in combat to mess with them.

[Tanarii]

Given the lack of substantial AC differences between a high-dex light-armor wearing player and a heavy-armor wearing player, I tend towards giving it earlier.

That's the thing. Earlier is when heavy armor (and even medium armor) has a significant AC advantage over light armor. It's later when that advantage goes away. Dex gets maxed at level 8 earliest, and the system math doesn't expect it u til around 16 (if ever).

E.g. Starting rogues, monks, and Dex Rangers usually have AC 13-14. That typically goes up to 15-16 at level 4. They're (maybe) only just catching up to no shield heavier armors, and still pretty far behind a S&B medium armor or heavy armor character at that level, who started at AC 18. And yes, it's fair to compare Light no shield to S&B.

[MrStabby]

I would say it depends on everything else.

I tend to start having uncommon magic items come into play at about level 8, plate a bit earlier at about level 6.The main thing is that it is paid for. It's why the party gets loot.

So yeah, the fighter might get plate armour as low as level 5, or even 4 but it will be meaning that no one in the party gets any other equipment, that wizards don't get to cast spells using expensive material components or to buy spell scrolls (that fun dilemma of whose class ability is more important - the wizard's to acquire new spells of the fighter/cleric/paladin to use their heavy armour proficiency).

Giving the PCs meaningful choice is key - you can buy it, but you will be giving up other things for that. If there are multiple PCs that can wear plate... then we are getting into magic item territory before they will all be kitted up - do you want to be buying plate or paying informants for info on where a magic weapon can be found?

[Yuroch Kern]

My opinion is whether such a thing is available. Historically, such armor was not a common thing, even among nobles. When it was, the cost and basic skill needed regulated it to preparing for a major conflict, full contact games, and/or events. D&D has many ways to acquire it, the dwarf PC, enemy loot, or just stealing it. But if they can't talk down the price for a new set or alter an existing one, then they may have to wait to get a better deal, make it themselves, or stuff themselves in it. Also, you can't really sleep in it, so if you're ambushed during a long rest, you will not be doing better than padded probably...Still, getting to 5th should be enough to have the resources available to at least have the option to have one commissioned. If you do the crafting rules, it could even be ordered at 2nd, and by the time it's done and you have the other half of gold to pay the smith, you're level 5-6 and the splint mail is falling apart...

[Corsair14]

I find it odd someone mentioned the prices of armor in the middle ages as comparison.
Leather armor as far as we know, really didn't exist in the form we see it in LARP or DnD.
Padded armor was fairly common as it was relatively cheap and was a gambeson everyone wore under their actual armor.
Studded leather didn't exist.
Chain took forever to build but was the most common armor of Rome through the middle ages. It should be the median armor that most professional fighters wear up to the middle ages but as a full suit gets eclipsed by brigadine.
Scale AKA Lamellar is another very common armor worn in one form or another from early period up to the middle ages where it dies out mostly. Several groups continue to use it and at least one goes back to it for decorative purposes. It was material and labor intensive to make and was fairly expensive. Byzantine and Samurai armor are examples of this but even the Greeks and Romans wore a version at some point.

Banded as we know didn't exist although you can make a comparison to the Roman segmentata armor which was uncomfortable and maintenance intensive. More typical was the chain mail. Segmentata It was decently expensive but the industry had the most powerful and rich government in the world backing it up so they were able to pump out suits fairly quickly at a relatively decent price. Technically you could have a worker producing each piece over and over and have a dude at the end assemble them.

Breast plate- This depends on the time period. A bronze breastplate would be common in Roman officers and Greece but then disappear until the late middle ages as plate became more common again as the tech to produce steel plates advanced.

Splint mail- is another oddity where they took a couple pieces or armor and Gygax decided to make a suit out of it. Its really only meant to be limbs armored in it, like vambraces or greaves.

Brigadine- Does 5e even have brig armor? Odd they would have skipped it but I cant recall seeing it. Very common armor, in the middle ages to the late middle ages. This, if DnD had a time period should, be the standard heavy armor. Multiple large plates that articulate and are sand-witched between layers of cloth. There are really good archeological finds of this stuff. Its fairly comfortable, you can walk long distances in it once you are used to it and can add splint to protect your arms and legs.

Plate- Very late period. This stuff is the reason no one carries a shield by this point. Also incredibly expensive. Like really really expensive taking months to build, exact measurements requiring the user not gain weight or muscle mass. You could bankrupt a kingdom outfitting a company in this armor. If a trained warhorse was the equivalent of owning and paying for a high end Ferrari(which it was) a suit of this was like buying a multi-million dollar chateau in Aspin. With it you were immune to arrows, crossbows, swords and spears. Your worry was getting the crap knocked out of you by polearms, maces and hammers and someone calmly sticking a dagger through your eye slits of your helm. If anything, in DnD plate is under valued greatly and should provide higher AC. Hell, for the brief period in time people used it, the chest was even immune to the gunpowder weapons of the day, thus the term bullet proofing where the smith fired a gun at the breast plate to prove it was proof versus bullets. The Polish Hussars being as late as the were(they were dying out while our US Revolution was going on) had insanely thick chestplates and went minimum thickness everywhere else they had armor to save on weight. You didn't walk long periods in this armor, you didn't ride long distances in this armor. You had it in a box in your wagon, driven by your retainers and they helped you into it when a battle was coming near when you got off your riding horse and started prepping your warhorse for battle. It was loud, it was heavy, it was hot, it was very uncomfortable.

I would say minimum 10k-20k gold pieces and 2-3 months of work for a single experienced armor smith and his apprentices and only in a large city or someplace supplied by a nearby large city. Metal plates would have to be shipped in from the metal workers, armor workers do not do that themselves. It would also require regular fittings. As for finding the armor in my games I have a very small percentage chance it will fit a similarly sized character. Otherwise they will need to bring it to a professional and pay to have it redone. I could go into more detail such as a chance of failure, losing AC due to losing metal to make it fit, etc but that's too much headache. In my games I also have it worth only a tenth of what a new suit would cost due to the efforts and cost it will take to put back into battle ready condition.

[MoiMagnus]

...

As for price concerns, I'd like to point that in a world with magic, creating plate armour should be way easier. (Though not necessarily less costly, as it depends on how much spellcasters ask for).

Ex: Mail armour is much easier to build when you can just use the mending cantrip to link broken rings together. And can probably be used to help crafting in a lot of other circumstances. Enlarge/Reduce can be use to assemble objects with ease. And while Fabricate is level 4, it is explicitly written that "You also can't use it to create items that ordinarily require a high degree of craftsmanship, such as jewelry, weapons, glass, or armor, unless you have proficiency with the type of artisan's tools used to craft such objects."
[For reference, the standard Mage NPC has level 5 spells, so spellcasters with access to Fabricate and the adequate proficiency should not be that hard to find if you're willing to put the price for]

[Democratus]

Adventures seem to provide enough cash that plate mail is entirely feasible at level 2 or 3.

[Corsair14]

As for price concerns, I'd like to point that in a world with magic, creating plate armour should be way easier. (Though not necessarily less costly, as it depends on how much spellcasters ask for).

Ex: Mail armour is much easier to build when you can just use the mending cantrip to link broken rings together. And can probably be used to help crafting in a lot of other circumstances. Enlarge/Reduce can be use to assemble objects with ease. And while Fabricate is level 4, it is explicitly written that "You also can't use it to create items that ordinarily require a high degree of craftsmanship, such as jewelry, weapons, glass, or armor, unless you have proficiency with the type of artisan's tools used to craft such objects."
[For reference, the standard Mage NPC has level 5 spells, so spellcasters with access to Fabricate and the adequate proficiency should not be that hard to find if you're willing to put the price for]

There of course it depends on how prevalent magic is in your game world. I tend to make it quite rare with wizardly types either being in the employ of kingdom level royalty or off in obscure towers doing their own magic so people don't come to them all the time with simple requests to mend their chain mail. A magic using armorer does sound interesting however but for sure wouldn't be something available in every city.

[Snails]

That's the thing. Earlier is when heavy armor (and even medium armor) has a significant AC advantage over light armor. It's later when that advantage goes away. Dex gets maxed at level 8 earliest, and the system math doesn't expect it u til around 16 (if ever).

E.g. Starting rogues, monks, and Dex Rangers usually have AC 13-14. That typically goes up to 15-16 at level 4. They're (maybe) only just catching up to no shield heavier armors, and still pretty far behind a S&B medium armor or heavy armor character at that level, who started at AC 18. And yes, it's fair to compare Light no shield to S&B.

That is a good point, giving plate armor early does not help the scaling behavior. If plate armor is too good or not good enough, in either case early acquisition is more likely to make the scaling look worse in the bigger picture.

Personally I think the Str builds with heavy armor are under-modeled unless you make one or both of the assumptions: (1) the PC dumps a Dex 8 or Dex 7 (so avoiding an AC penalty is an implied benefit), (2) GWM (and similar).

[Dark.Revenant]

Plate- Very late period. This stuff is the reason no one carries a shield by this point. Also incredibly expensive. Like really really expensive taking months to build, exact measurements requiring the user not gain weight or muscle mass. You could bankrupt a kingdom outfitting a company in this armor. If a trained warhorse was the equivalent of owning and paying for a high end Ferrari(which it was) a suit of this was like buying a multi-million dollar chateau in Aspin. With it you were immune to arrows, crossbows, swords and spears. Your worry was getting the crap knocked out of you by polearms, maces and hammers and someone calmly sticking a dagger through your eye slits of your helm. If anything, in DnD plate is under valued greatly and should provide higher AC. Hell, for the brief period in time people used it, the chest was even immune to the gunpowder weapons of the day, thus the term bullet proofing where the smith fired a gun at the breast plate to prove it was proof versus bullets. The Polish Hussars being as late as the were(they were dying out while our US Revolution was going on) had insanely thick chestplates and went minimum thickness everywhere else they had armor to save on weight. You didn't walk long periods in this armor, you didn't ride long distances in this armor. You had it in a box in your wagon, driven by your retainers and they helped you into it when a battle was coming near when you got off your riding horse and started prepping your warhorse for battle. It was loud, it was heavy, it was hot, it was very uncomfortable.

I would say minimum 10k-20k gold pieces and 2-3 months of work for a single experienced armor smith and his apprentices and only in a large city or someplace supplied by a nearby large city. Metal plates would have to be shipped in from the metal workers, armor workers do not do that themselves. It would also require regular fittings. As for finding the armor in my games I have a very small percentage chance it will fit a similarly sized character. Otherwise they will need to bring it to a professional and pay to have it redone. I could go into more detail such as a chance of failure, losing AC due to losing metal to make it fit, etc but that's too much headache. In my games I also have it worth only a tenth of what a new suit would cost due to the efforts and cost it will take to put back into battle ready condition.

D&D armor is wildly unrealistic and the prices are set for gameplay reasons rather than historical accuracy. However, I wonder how incredibly cheap gold is in your world if 10-20 thousand coins of it are worth one set of milanese armor. Going by D&D hireling prices an experienced smith and apprentices working 2-3 months would be, let's say, five gold a day. Let's suppose the materials cost is 50% of labor (admittedly a RAG), and that would be an overall cost of ~550 gold. To match the PHB cost for plate armor, one would need to pay the blacksmith about 15 gold per day of work, which would make armorers remarkably wealthy. To match 20k gold pieces, the guy would need to be paid about 180 gold per day, more than enough to have the living standards of a prince.

The sources I can find for the time period where plate armor was becoming prevalent (15th century) quote a price for typical proofed plate armor in the low tens of pounds. An aristocrat's gilded showoff armor might be ten or twenty times more expensive, but plain old plate armor would have been in reach for people of reasonable wealth who save up for several years. It would be sort of like buying a car for $150-250 thousand... or in other words your Ferrari metaphor, not your chateau metaphor.

[Segev]

With the cost of Plate and its listed benefit over significantly cheaper options merely being +1 AC, has anybody seen any perks to tie to Plate as ribbon effects? Not necessarily full-on magic item bonuses or abilities, but ways to make a given suit of Plate Mail stand out as uniquely worth its cost, even if it's only a minor gimmick?

[Corsair14]

Its not official but I give a 50% damage resistance to full plate vs non-magical 1 handed slashing, piercing, and missile weapons.

[Yuroch Kern]

With the cost of Plate and its listed benefit over significantly cheaper options merely being +1 AC, has anybody seen any perks to tie to Plate as ribbon effects? Not necessarily full-on magic item bonuses or abilities, but ways to make a given suit of Plate Mail stand out as uniquely worth its cost, even if it's only a minor gimmick?

Much like some videogames, introducing "racial" methods of manufacture is what I've done. Eleven crafted armor is lighter, Dwarven armor is less prone to wear, tear, and breaking, Humans do it cheaper...I apply it to all stuff, but to make plate, most smiths are gonna really make it good as a pinnacle of armoring.

[stoutstien]

With the cost of Plate and its listed benefit over significantly cheaper options merely being +1 AC, has anybody seen any perks to tie to Plate as ribbon effects? Not necessarily full-on magic item bonuses or abilities, but ways to make a given suit of Plate Mail stand out as uniquely worth its cost, even if it's only a minor gimmick?

I just slap the damage reduction from HAM on plate. It's not much but it makes plate armor feel more protective and worth it.

[LordCdrMilitant]

With the cost of Plate and its listed benefit over significantly cheaper options merely being +1 AC, has anybody seen any perks to tie to Plate as ribbon effects? Not necessarily full-on magic item bonuses or abilities, but ways to make a given suit of Plate Mail stand out as uniquely worth its cost, even if it's only a minor gimmick?

No, but I only really ever give out heavy armor magic armor.

It's not a feature of plate though, it's just that I chose to not award magic armor to characters for whom armor is not a part of their character. It also helps the armored characters to feel special, since they have an enhancement bonus and some special ability going with their armor to set them above the people who have only 1 less AC and are just wearing a boiled leather shirt.

[jmartkdr]

With the cost of Plate and its listed benefit over significantly cheaper options merely being +1 AC, has anybody seen any perks to tie to Plate as ribbon effects? Not necessarily full-on magic item bonuses or abilities, but ways to make a given suit of Plate Mail stand out as uniquely worth its cost, even if it's only a minor gimmick?

I do not, but now I feel like I really should be...

[Tanarii]

Personally I think the Str builds with heavy armor are under-modeled unless you make one or both of the assumptions: (1) the PC dumps a Dex 8 or Dex 7 (so avoiding an AC penalty is an implied benefit), (2) GWM (and similar).IMX #1 is a safe assumption. Both in my personal campaign I ran and in AL, Heavy Armor wearers typically dumped Dex to 8. Not 100% of course, especially not for brand new players, but common enough that I blink twice when someone suggests not doing it in an optimization thread.

[Cheesegear]

IMX #1 is a safe assumption. Both in my personal campaign I ran and in AL, Heavy Armor wearers typically dumped Dex to 8.

I've seen it online.
But in person, I've never seen anyone put DEX below 10, 'cause Initiative penalty is bad.

[Kobold_paladin?]

I'd say 5th level, maybe 6th.

[HappyDaze]

I've seen it online.
But in person, I've never seen anyone put DEX below 10, 'cause Initiative penalty is bad.

The difference between ability scores of 8 and 10 barely registers.

[Tanarii]

Going by D&D hireling prices an experienced smith and apprentices working 2-3 months would be, let's say, five gold a day. Let's suppose the materials cost is 50% of labor (admittedly a RAG), and that would be an overall cost of ~550 gold. To match the PHB cost for plate armor, one would need to pay the blacksmith about 15 gold per day of work, which would make armorers remarkably wealthy.

PHB downtime rules: Plate takes 300 man-days for the smith and assistants to create and cost 750gp in materials, for a final sale profit to the smith of 2.5gp per man-day. While maintaining one of them at a Moderate lifestyle, or a comfortable one at half price. e.g. the smith lives at a comfortable lifestyle, pays two assistants 2gp/day as skilled labor who live at a modest lifestyle, the plate takes 100 days, and the smith comes out with 250gp and the assistants 100gp each to spend on non-lifestyle goods or save for retirement.

XTGE downtime is basically the same except it's workweeks instead of days, so they get weekends off to boot!

[Dark.Revenant]

PHB downtime rules: Plate takes 300 man-days for the smith and assistants to create and cost 750gp in materials, for a final sale profit to the smith of 2.5gp per man-day. While maintaining one of them at a Moderate lifestyle, or a comfortable one at half price. e.g. the smith lives at a comfortable lifestyle, pays two assistants 2gp/day as skilled labor who live at a modest lifestyle, the plate takes 100 days, and the smith comes out with 250gp and the assistants 100gp each to spend on non-lifestyle goods or save for retirement.

XTGE downtime is basically the same except it's workweeks instead of days, so they get weekends off to boot!

Your numbers are well-reasoned. I'd say 400-1000 gold of extra spending money for a year's labor is pretty well off, to be fair. My point was more that the cost of typical plate is definitely not *ten times* the PHB cost, especially historically.

[Sception]

My party killed an animated armor at level 1. It's basically an animated suit of full plate so I couldn't see why it wouldn't leave a suit of usable fullplate behind.

That said, it seems like a rather powerful item for level 1, so to balance it off a bit I'm having it not entirely non-animated. The suit is still semi conscious, and can manifest to give the wearer disadvantage on attacks, or an enemy advantage to hit them, or can turn a critical miss with an attack into a hit on an ally in range, maybe strength check to resist it choosing where the wearer moves moves. Not all that stuff all the time, just some nasty ways it can mess with the wearer when a suitable situation comes up. Potentially mean stuff regardless, but I did give them warning in the armor pinging to the paladin's divine sight even after they "killed" it, and the paladin still chose to wear it. It hasn't acted up yet, I'm not sure if they'll keep wearing it when it does. I'll let them fix it with a remove curse spell, which the party should get access to at around the time they "should" be getting access to plate armor anyway.

[HappyDaze]

My party killed an animated armor at level 1. It's basically an animated suit of full plate so I couldn't see why it wouldn't leave a suit of usable fullplate behind.

I would not assume that it came through a fight undamaged and in usable condition. At best, it would probably give an armorer the materials that could be used to create a new suit, offsetting much of the usual cost to have the new suit constructed.

[Tanarii]

Your numbers are well-reasoned. I'd say 400-1000 gold of extra spending money for a year's labor is pretty well off, to be fair. My point was more that the cost of typical plate is definitely not *ten times* the PHB cost, especially historically.
Yeah I was surprised at how the numbers came out. If NPCs use the Pc downtime crafting rates and profit margins they're all going to be living between a comfortable and Wealthy lifestyle. (Obviously there's no requirement or even indication they do use them.)

[Boci]

My players killed 4 knights and took their armour. They were surprised when I let them sell it all once they got to a large city for 80% their purchase price, netting them 1,200 each. Not sure why the paladin didn't keep one for himself, I guess he didn't want to wear looted armour.

[HappyDaze]

My players killed 4 knights and took their armour. They were surprised when I let them sell it all once they got to a large city for 80% their purchase price, netting them 1,200 each. Not sure why the paladin didn't keep one for himself, I guess he didn't want to wear looted armour.

Selling mundane loot for 80% of cost is rather generous. I rarely let it get to even 50%, but that's also because I've seen players try to strip & carry everything to the point where it becomes nonsensical. While most worn/carried objects are not vulnerable to being directly damaged, I also rule that the gear of downed opponents is damaged based on how they were felled.

[Boci]

Selling mundane loot for 80% of cost is rather generous. I rarely let it get to even 50%, but that's also because I've seen players try to strip & carry everything to the point where it becomes nonsensical. While most worn/carried objects are not vulnerable to being directly damaged, I also rule that the gear of downed opponents is damaged based on how they were felled.

I did consider that, but decided against it. I didn't have the notes for how the armour was taken, I was a player at the time. I remember summoned boars gored one of the knights to death, so I assume they wouldn't have pieces the armour doing that, I don't think boars could that so they likely swarmed and knocked him prone. The others would have been taken out with a combination of moonbeams, eldritch blasts and longswords, with a single dragonborn's breath thrown in for good measure, so their could have been some damage done to those.

The party were also lucky. They ran into an elf loving merchant NPC of mine, and two of the party members were elf, and a third was a half-elf, so she took a shine to them. Plus she made 1,200 gold before noon, so she benefitted from the exchange too.

[SLOTHRPG95]

Yeah I was surprised at how the numbers came out. If NPCs use the Pc downtime crafting rates and profit margins they're all going to be living between a comfortable and Wealthy lifestyle. (Obviously there's no requirement or even indication they do use them.)

The PHB does say that if you maintain a Comfortable lifestyle, you'll be associating with "merchants, skilled tradespeople, and military officers." I'd say an armorer making plate qualifies as a skilled tradesman, so it's no surprise that they'd be living a Comfortable lifestyle. Also, while the head smith out of the three might be netting 250 gp spending cash at the end of the 100 days, there's no guarantee that he can maintain a constant stream of profitable commissions. Part of that 250 gp is going to go to maintaining that Comfortable lifestyle while business is slow, not to mention fixed monthly costs of his business (rent, guild dues, etc.). Even if the Guild has enough political clout to exempt its members from taxes and tithes, and the dues are only 5 gp per month, you're still looking at business maintenance costs in the tens of gp per month (based on DMG figures). Optimistically, the smith is netting just over 100 gp per year. More likely, they're making just enough to maintain the aforementioned lifestyle.

As to OP's question, I'd say around 5th to 7th level is about right, unless the whole party is saving up basically just to buy the Fighter his Plate and not spending money on anything else, in which case yeah they could get it sooner. However, in a party with two or more heavy armor users, it's probably better short-term to upgrade them all to Splint, and upgrade light/medium armor wearers to their optimal picks (studded leather, breastplate, or half plate) first. Heck, with starting package equipment, the Barbarian isn't even in scale mail!

Edited to better address the thread's main topic.

[Aussiehams]

With the cost of Plate and its listed benefit over significantly cheaper options merely being +1 AC, has anybody seen any perks to tie to Plate as ribbon effects? Not necessarily full-on magic item bonuses or abilities, but ways to make a given suit of Plate Mail stand out as uniquely worth its cost, even if it's only a minor gimmick?

I can see plate giving advantage on some persuasion/intimidate checks. The fact that you are wearing a small fortune should count for something. Fine clothes start at 15 GP and that's enough to have nobles pay attention to you.

[HappyDaze]

Fine clothes start at 15 GP and that's enough to have nobles pay attention to you.

Oh honey, you just keep thinking that... They can spot a poseur dressed in last season's off-the-rack threads from across a ballroom. The only attention those rags will get you is dismissive laughter. Now, you want to impress them, you'll need to spend far more than 15gp. But I know a guy...

[FrancisBean]

As for finding actual plate or even a breast plate, there is a very high chance they wont be able to wear it or if they do it will cut down even more of their dex. Real world example, I fight in the SCA and had a Greek musculata chestplate from a Roman persona I had prior to changing it and 4 years at the gym. I tried putting it on earlier this year and it wasn't even remotely possible. Kept digging into my chest, couldn't close the sides ect, hell, I had a hard time taking it off and though I was going to need help.

How much could your panoply be adjusted to fit without working the metal? Padding and new straps and so forth could help a lot, but I'm not sure how much of that is jury-rigging rather than fitting. I've got a character in my current group who is about to find a suit of adamantine plate and I'm struggling with what adjustments will be needed to make it fit him. I want him to find it and discover that it's not currently wearable, but back in town he can get it better fitted. I'm going hand-wave that the previous owner was a close match on size and body type, but then, you're a fairly close match to yourself from 4 years ago, too.

...and well met! I'm another SCAdian up in TN, as are all of my players. Since he and I are both blacksmiths, I'm not going to get a lot of argument on problems making it fit.

[deljzc]

In my campaigns money is pretty free-flowing but I play more dirty realism, so making plate armor to fit takes a while.

Often, since levels 1-3 are strung together in my adventures and time is of the essence most of the time, it's not the cost but the time getting a full set of plate available.

I would think there is enough money to buy plate very soon after getting to level 2, level 3 at the latest. But then it might take a month to commission and build and only in a good-sized town or city. I guess the PC's could wait it out until it's ready, but often adventures present themselves as "now or never"....

[Amechra]

As far as the game is concerned? Somewhere in Tier 2. Things line up really well if you assume that everyone wearing mundane armor is supposed to be able to get a +1 to AC at the end of Tier 1 and somewhere during Tier 2 due to mundane upgrades - heavy armor users buy better armor, light armor users buy up their Dexterity, and medium armor users upgrade to half-plate and take MAM. That's why plate is so expensive - it's supposed to be something you have to wait to buy.

The design behind armor and AC in 5e is surprisingly nuanced.

Me? I just handed my 3rd level party (4th level next session) a suit of Adamantine Plate, because they have one frontline person and three spellcasters, and why not? I'm not running a "normal" setting, so...

---

If I were to run a game where plate is something you have to hold off on buying until tier 2, I would have it count as Adamantine Plate by default. Crits are for losers who aren't wearing the medieval equivalent of a Ferrari, after all.