[3.5] Etiquette on buffing spells during social event, and how evident they are

[ciopo]

Greetings all

My level 6 party will have to go attend a social event in some weeks, where a lot of bigwigs will be present

We have strong in character suspicion that there will be enemy action in said party, because such a concentration of bigwigs is kind of the perfect place to strike and sow confusion between allies, we have even pointed out as much to some of these NPC bigwigs in prior less social/more secure meetings.

Of course, when the day comes about, I will be decked out in some hours/level buffs (heart of water, heart of air) and possibly some 10 minutes/level buffs too ( barkskin, eyes of the avoral ) because like hell I'm going in unprepared in a "there will obviously be trouble" situation.

But, here is the conondrum, going in such a social event while being "all sparkly" seems kind of a big faux pas.

So, I got wondering, do you guys usually ignore the obvious visual cues of active magical effects?

How can I avoid possible fallout from going to a ball/concert while "decked for war"?

[ExLibrisMortis]

It could be a problem, yes. And at level 6, you're likely still subject to most social norms.

While it's almost certainly a faux pas to appear dressed for war, it's certainly appropriate to dress for power, and magic is a big part of that. I'd expect most bigwigs to visit balls with active Charisma and social skill buffs, wards against enchantments and divinations, and cosmetic (impressive!) magic. Between all those "appropriate" effects, a few "war buffs" hardly stand out--which could make balls all the more dangerous, depending on the society one keeps. I would suggest using disguise self to change your outfit and jewellery (not your body or face) to match any magic that might be visible. Barkskin with leafweave clothes is a great look!


For straight-up hiding magic, there's a few options:
Invisible Spell negates visual effects--there might be metamagic rods of it available in your world, ask your DM.
Nondetection will disguise spells and items on your person. Nystul's magic aura will disguise other magical items.
Psionics allow you to suppress all manifestations of a power with a Concentration check.

[Sinner's Garden]

Embrace it. You look especially magical and shiny, which is almost definitely going to make people like you more, not less. Alternatively, you could probably use Silent Image to keep a visual disguise going until the fight breaks out, I guess. Also, the fact that you're "dressed for war" should be reassuring to those friends you have previously counseled, assuming they have the ability and spellcraft knowledge to realize what you're doing in the first place.

[Asmotherion]

Consider the following. You are in a social gathering and you notice someone has a concealed gun. There are no Anti gun laws there. You are not actively breaking any laws but it's would still be considered suspicious and rude to openly carry a gun as a guest. Expect the host to act accordingly if they have the means to know you have active spells on you. You can always cast magic aura over the party to conceal that you have active buffs.

[Batcathat]

I would assume that magical protection in such as setting would be seen in a similar way to mundane security in the real world. So one of the bigwigs showing up with magical protection shouldn't be any different from a real world bigwig showing up with armed bodyguards and a bullet-proof car. As for some adventurers showing up like that, I would guess it depends a lot on their role. If they're officially there as security for the bigwigs it shouldn't be a big deal but if they're just some unknown guests clearly prepared for combat that would probably raise a few eyebrows at best and cause fear or suspicion at worst.

Would the party members showing up in bullet-proof vests cause concern in the real world? If that's the case, magical combat buffs would probably have the same effect.

[ciopo]

It could be a problem, yes. And at level 6, you're likely still subject to most social norms.

While it's almost certainly a faux pas to appear dressed for war, it's certainly appropriate to dress for power, and magic is a big part of that. I'd expect most bigwigs to visit balls with active Charisma and social skill buffs, wards against enchantments and divinations, and cosmetic (impressive!) magic. Between all those "appropriate" effects, a few "war buffs" hardly stand out--which could make balls all the more dangerous, depending on the society one keeps. I would suggest using disguise self to change your outfit and jewellery (not your body or face) to match any magic that might be visible. Barkskin with leafweave clothes is a great look!


For straight-up hiding magic, there's a few options:
Invisible Spell negates visual effects--there might be metamagic rods of it available in your world, ask your DM.
Nondetection will disguise spells and items on your person. Nystul's magic aura will disguise other magical items.
Psionics allow you to suppress all manifestations of a power with a Concentration check.


Disguise self is an interesting point, I have a hat of disguise, I'll ask my DM if I can use it to hide away the other layers of ongoing magicla effects I will be having.

I'm the only one bothering with long duration buffs, so hiding away my own effects is going to be enough.

I dont' think I've ever "observed" magical effects going on outside of combat situation, even if they should be expected to be "always on" for people with access to them and long enough duration.

maybe it is a matter of never having asked, I guess

[Emperor Tippy]

At level six, you are basically looking at Detect Magic (at most Arcane Sight) as a concern. Neither is liable to be made permanent at ECL 6 (self only with Permanency which means an ECL 9 caster or a scroll and the ability to use it).

Which means that any curious individuals need three rounds of concentrating on you to tell that you specifically are decked out in magic. Then its a Spellcraft check to identify the school of the auras.

At that level, you don't actually have to worry about the specific buffs being identified short of a DC 20+Spell Level Spellcraft check.

With Nondetection you also get to force a DC 15+Caster level check to detect your auras. Realistically, concealment shouldn't be a concern.

More broadly speaking, everyone should be rocking magic items and spells at any kind of high profile social event. A Hat of Disguise is a mere 1,800 GP; meaning that you can expect virtually any noble house of any note to have a few lying around. Why? Because it is makeup. The noble doesn't use it to "disguise" themselves, they use it for real world photoshop. All of the little imperfections and smoothed away, their hair is just so, their clothes are just so, etc. With the Hat of Disguise they are rocking a +15 to the Disguise check for that kind of touch-up work and don't need to take 10-30 minutes on each attempt. They just stand there with an attendant with a good eye (ranks in Spot) Taking 10 and keep tweaking (trying again) until they get a good result.

Prestidigitation, if it can be cast, is a must. It ensures that any minor spills and the like are instantly cleaned, it lets you change the taste of that exotic dish to something that you like, it can be used to embarrass someone else (soil their pants so it appears that they have had an accident, for example).

And at higher levels/if it can be afforded, expect Permanency. Permanent Invisible Arcane Sight, Darkvision, See Invisible, Tongues, Comprehend Languages, Resistance.

If it's something like a court function, especially in a court with a great deal of intrigue going on, expect everyone who matters to have magical defenses. Craft Contingent Resilient Sphere set to trigger on themselves if they are attacked, for example. Resilient Sphere also blocks Line of Effect which means it can be used to create a hole in anti-teleport defenses so pair it with a Craft Contingent Teleport and it lets them escape the vast majority of assassinations (especially poorly planned ones). Telepathic Bonds to keep in discreet communication with guards or servants, Delay Poison, Status, Mage Armor, etc.

So no, the PC having defensive magic on them shouldn't be out of the ordinary for a function like that in a world with standard magical levels & distribution.

[Segev]

Yeah, lean into it. Pick spells that have cool looks, and design your outfit and style around them. The cloud of daggers might be potentially used as a weapon, but it also lets you show off their gorgeous jeweled hilts and how they match your fancy vest and hairdo.

[ciopo]

At level six, you are basically looking at Detect Magic (at most Arcane Sight) as a concern. Neither is liable to be made permanent at ECL 6 (self only with Permanency which means an ECL 9 caster or a scroll and the ability to use it).

Which means that any curious individuals need three rounds of concentrating on you to tell that you specifically are decked out in magic. Then its a Spellcraft check to identify the school of the auras.

At that level, you don't actually have to worry about the specific buffs being identified short of a DC 20+Spell Level Spellcraft check.

With Nondetection you also get to force a DC 15+Caster level check to detect your auras. Realistically, concealment shouldn't be a concern.

More broadly speaking, everyone should be rocking magic items and spells at any kind of high profile social event. A Hat of Disguise is a mere 1,800 GP; meaning that you can expect virtually any noble house of any note to have a few lying around. Why? Because it is makeup. The noble doesn't use it to "disguise" themselves, they use it for real world photoshop. All of the little imperfections and smoothed away, their hair is just so, their clothes are just so, etc. With the Hat of Disguise they are rocking a +15 to the Disguise check for that kind of touch-up work and don't need to take 10-30 minutes on each attempt. They just stand there with an attendant with a good eye (ranks in Spot) Taking 10 and keep tweaking (trying again) until they get a good result.

Prestidigitation, if it can be cast, is a must. It ensures that any minor spills and the like are instantly cleaned, it lets you change the taste of that exotic dish to something that you like, it can be used to embarrass someone else (soil their pants so it appears that they have had an accident, for example).

And at higher levels/if it can be afforded, expect Permanency. Permanent Invisible Arcane Sight, Darkvision, See Invisible, Tongues, Comprehend Languages, Resistance.

If it's something like a court function, especially in a court with a great deal of intrigue going on, expect everyone who matters to have magical defenses. Craft Contingent Resilient Sphere set to trigger on themselves if they are attacked, for example. Resilient Sphere also blocks Line of Effect which means it can be used to create a hole in anti-teleport defenses so pair it with a Craft Contingent Teleport and it lets them escape the vast majority of assassinations (especially poorly planned ones). Telepathic Bonds to keep in discreet communication with guards or servants, Delay Poison, Status, Mage Armor, etc.

So no, the PC having defensive magic on them shouldn't be out of the ordinary for a function like that in a world with standard magical levels & distribution.

thank you for the reply, but it is not a matter of having what specific effects I have going on that worries me, it is the "visual cues"
take heart of water of example, which I am going to have on as a matter of course for emergengy FoM ever since my party almost wiped froma well placed enemy web, it's fluff description says that part of my body becomes water.
because of that, while I have heart of water on me, even if for example I wild shape to a dog, I can't pretend to be a dog to stake out an enemy hideout because anyone who sees me is going to be "wtf is up with that dog, it's half made of water!" (putting aside the interesting aside that wild shape might override the "presentation" of heart of water).

It's interesting for those effect whose visual effect is corporeal, such as barkskin I guess, or heart of water, those that have some "body changes in some part"

Anyway, my GM noped using the hat of disguise to disguise away looking like I have barkskin/heart of water etc on me


the event itself is a concert/opera on a cruiser ship, ambassadors from other states plus local bigwigs will be attending, party is cleric, warlock, druid(me), sorcerer and rogue. The host will be a mage guild that has monopoly on teleport spells.

I guess I'll stick to "without visual cue" buffs to begin with, such as longstrider, meh, I do have a character motivation to keep up a pretense that I am a mundane ranger and not a spellcaster, tho that ship as sailed in the current city

[Kalkra]

What about an ordinary disguise check? Also, seconding a rod of Invisible Spell. If you're desperate, you could try something with Invisibility and Silent Image, but there's a lot that could go wrong there.

[Emperor Tippy]

thank you for the reply, but it is not a matter of having what specific effects I have going on that worries me, it is the "visual cues"
take heart of water of example, which I am going to have on as a matter of course for emergengy FoM ever since my party almost wiped froma well placed enemy web, it's fluff description says that part of my body becomes water.
because of that, while I have heart of water on me, even if for example I wild shape to a dog, I can't pretend to be a dog to stake out an enemy hideout because anyone who sees me is going to be "wtf is up with that dog, it's half made of water!" (putting aside the interesting aside that wild shape might override the "presentation" of heart of water).

It's interesting for those effect whose visual effect is corporeal, such as barkskin I guess, or heart of water, those that have some "body changes in some part"

Anyway, my GM noped using the hat of disguise to disguise away looking like I have barkskin/heart of water etc on me


the event itself is a concert/opera on a cruiser ship, ambassadors from other states plus local bigwigs will be attending, party is cleric, warlock, druid(me), sorcerer and rogue. The host will be a mage guild that has monopoly on teleport spells.

I guess I'll stick to "without visual cue" buffs to begin with, such as longstrider, meh, I do have a character motivation to keep up a pretense that I am a mundane ranger and not a spellcaster, tho that ship as sailed in the current city

Disguise Self should be able to conceal all of that, but ignoring that, use the feat Invisible Spell (cityscape) to just remove all visible manifestations of a spell; it's +0 meta.

If you are trying to pretend to be a non-caster, that meta is generally a must.

Whether or not those visible signs are a social faux pas is dependent on the situation and the setting.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

In most of my settings, nobles and other image-conscious spellcasters go for the Invisible Spell + nondetection + Nystul's magic aura + hidden ward combo as soon as possible so they can walk around all day looking normal regardless of what buffs and/or items they have on. High-end artificers offer a custom pendant of discreet dweomers item that packages those effects up for non-wizards (and also hides psionic buffs and soulmelds and such; they really should have made it easier to hide soulmelds, given that unshaping them is such a pain), with a greater pendant version also offering Silent Spell and Still Spell a few times per day for discreet spellcasting in public.

[Zaq]

It could be a problem, yes. And at level 6, you're likely still subject to most social norms.

While it's almost certainly a faux pas to appear dressed for war, it's certainly appropriate to dress for power, and magic is a big part of that. I'd expect most bigwigs to visit balls with active Charisma and social skill buffs, wards against enchantments and divinations, and cosmetic (impressive!) magic. Between all those "appropriate" effects, a few "war buffs" hardly stand out--which could make balls all the more dangerous, depending on the society one keeps. I would suggest using disguise self to change your outfit and jewellery (not your body or face) to match any magic that might be visible. Barkskin with leafweave clothes is a great look!


For straight-up hiding magic, there's a few options:
Invisible Spell negates visual effects--there might be metamagic rods of it available in your world, ask your DM.
Nondetection will disguise spells and items on your person. Nystul's magic aura will disguise other magical items.
Psionics allow you to suppress all manifestations of a power with a Concentration check.

Basically this.

My take? Sell it. Have a legitimately plausible explanation for why you might have any individual spell active in a social setting. (Not a lame excuse, either.) You probably won't get questioned too hard, but if you do get questioned, you should be prepared to explain why you chose to have heart of water (for example) active.

Also, remember that Bluff is one of the most powerful skills in the game. The reason don't have to be true as long as it's plausible and you can back it up with a good Bluff roll. No Bluff roll is necessary if your response is true, of course, but hey, there are multiple paths to success here.

[Elves]

The bulletproof vest comparison is apt. I doubt you'd be able to play off wearing a bulletproof vest as a fashion statement. People know what these spells are for.

Disguise self probably can't do anything about any sparkly auras or other "off the skin" effects, but it might be able to hide things like barkskin. That's basically up to your DM. It's a pretty vague spell.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Disguise self is an interesting point, I have a hat of disguise, I'll ask my DM if I can use it to hide away the other layers of ongoing magicla effects I will be having.
It's not so much that you can override the magical visuals, but you can make them blend in. For example, heart of water makes a part of your body look like water, and you can't change that, but you can disguise the rest of your body as water, your clothes as kelp, and your jewellery as live coral.

[Fizban]

You really need to figure out what the expectations regarding magic are in your world before you can answer this question: the varying degrees of response in the thread already should make it apparent that the only person who can answer the question is your DM.

Who has decided that Disguise Self is incapable of disguising self. Well, there's actually no hard rules about order of operations for visual spell effects, but as an illusion that cares nothing for your initial coloration, skin texture, etc, there is no reason it shouldn't be able to disguise the effects of ongoing spells. Touching someone and finding that the touch doesn't match the visual is literally the default method to get a save vs Disguise Self, so it must be an "outer layer." So what your DM has actually said is that they have immediately instigated an undefined house rule that prevents this from happening, in response to you asking a question you didn't initially have to ask. This annoys me.

It also signals that 1) they don't want you being pre-buffed, and 2) they have not actually thought any of this through, else they would have had a better answer.

This means that whatever attacks you will probably not be well-chosen based on your diminished combat capacity, nor will there be appropriately gauged security measures, nor will the NPCs have reasonable knowledge of what those visual effects mean (because they haven't defined what is "reasonable" yet). You get whatever they've come up with and that's that.

Best response remains: You're an adventurer, who cares if it's a faux pas? Someone wanted you there, you're there, anyone who doesn't like it can either deal with an adventurer or the person who invited an adventurer. Adventurers are always ready for a fight. I'm surprised you're not already being billed as security for someone and thus immune to such questions. If the DM didn't want to come up with plausible responses to their PCs acting like PCs, then they shouldn't have set up the situation.

You want readings of the Heart of X spells? None of them actually say what part of your body turns into what. The flavor text on air says you feel lighter, earth says your flesh strengthens, fire says you feel fire within, and water says "the crashing of waves echoes in your ears." None of those are obvious visual effects. You want a "good reason" to have each of them running? I'm on a boat, I'm on a boat, I'm on a boat, you get the idea. You are prepared for boat emergencies with the ability to move quickly, swim, resist fire, resist falling over, jump, and fall without damage. Oh, they're all powerful combat buffs? Gee, what did you expect an adventurer to be casting?

Now, if the DM was actually thinking about this, they would have told you either that security would be scanning for active magic and requiring all guests to submit to a full dispel and relinquish any unapproved items, or that there is no magical security and people do what they want. The former of which means you aren't sneaking buffs in, and the latter that you can do what you want.

[ciopo]

Please don't be bashing on my DM, she is awesome and generally permissive :) if I prebuffed it would probably not even be commented on and it's a published adventure so whatever encounter there will be if there will be any, won't be random.

I haven't asked them specifically in relation to the social event, what I asked was "can I use my hat of disguise to 'hide' that I have barkskin active?" , followed by "flipping it on its head, can I use a disguise kit to paint my barkskinned skin to look like it's normal skin", that was not asked in session

I'm basically "creating" the problem on my own because my mind wanders and maybe overthinks things a tad

I haven't found a price for a lesser rod of invisible spell :( I'll probably get extend->invisible spell metamagic my next two feats, because it really does fit, I didn't know of it or it would have been my level 1 and 3 feats.

[Fizban]

Please don't be bashing on my DM, she is awesome and generally permissive :) if I prebuffed it would probably not even be commented on and it's a published adventure so whatever encounter there will be if there will be any, won't be random.
Sorry :smallfrown:

What adventure? I'd like to see if the module says anything about it- was just reading Speaker in Dreams and their festival violence-discouragement was surprisingly good for a low-level town.

I haven't found a price for a lesser rod of invisible spell :( I'll probably get extend->invisible spell metamagic my next two feats, because it really does fit, I didn't know of it or it would have been my level 1 and 3 feats.
That's because there is no Rod of Invisible Spell. All metamagic rods are the same price for the same level adjustment, so as a +0 it would be the same price as a Rod of Energy Substitution, but only if the DM agrees that it's appropriate (the feat is on my ban list, because completely undetectable magic for free is not something I want). That's definitely the easiest option if it's allowed though.

[Powerdork]

Completely undetectable magic for free is not something I want.

N.B. In a world with Invisible Spell as a known factor, see invisibility, for those who can cast it, lasts at least half an hour, and anyone who can cast permanency (such as from a spell completion item) can make the spell a constant thing. Heck, even detect magic is called out in the feat description as defeating it.
(Just don't stop to consider Invisible invisibility.)

[Nifft]

The bulletproof vest comparison is apt. I doubt you'd be able to play off wearing a bulletproof vest as a fashion statement. People know what these spells are for.

At one hedge fund where I used to work there were three guys who wore bullet proof vests with the ceramic tile inserts around the office.

They claimed it was for exercise -- the vests are heavy as heck, especially with the inserts.

So yeah, IRL people do exactly that, and they make excuses about it, and they get away with it because nobody cared about them being weird.


It's not so much that you can override the magical visuals, but you can make them blend in. For example, heart of water makes a part of your body look like water, and you can't change that, but you can disguise the rest of your body as water, your clothes as kelp, and your jewellery as live coral.

This is great.

It's a Fantasy world, PCs can and should dive into the Fantasy aspects with both feet.

[el minster]

just say you came from an adventure and the long duration spells haven't worn off yet.

[ciopo]

just say you came from an adventure and the long duration spells haven't worn off yet.

that's perfect!

[el minster]

thank you!

[Segev]

(Just don't stop to consider Invisible invisibility.)

I've never had trouble with that one: it's invisible. This falls into the same category as asking, "What color is a white door if I paint it with white paint?"

It was white before, and it's white now.

Invisibility makes you invisible as its visual effect. Making that effect invisible doesn't change that it's invisible. No effect.

[el minster]

I've never had trouble with that one: it's invisible. This falls into the same category as asking, "What color is a white door if I paint it with white paint?"

It was white before, and it's white now.

Invisibility makes you invisible as its visual effect. Making that effect invisible doesn't change that it's invisible. No effect.

I think it was a joke

[ExLibrisMortis]

I've never had trouble with that one: it's invisible. This falls into the same category as asking, "What color is a white door if I paint it with white paint?"

It was white before, and it's white now.

Invisibility makes you invisible as its visual effect. Making that effect invisible doesn't change that it's invisible. No effect.
It doesn't make the spell invisible, that's the problem. "You can modify any spell you cast so that it carries no visual manifestation". The "visual manifestation" of invisibility is that the target becomes invisible; that is removed, so there is nothing left. However, anyone under the effects of true seeing will still see the "whatever visual manifestations typically accompany the spell", so you're invisible to people with see invisibility or true seeing active. This is actually really bloody brilliant, and if the feat were intentionally designed this way, I'd honestly applaud it, but it's probably a writer trying to find a synonym for "invisible" and overcomplicating things.

Of course, it's easy enough to ignore that stupid "visual manifestation" and just read "invisibility", but that's not what the feat says.

[el minster]

It doesn't make the spell invisible, that's the problem. "You can modify any spell you cast so that it carries no visual manifestation". The "visual manifestation" of invisibility is that the target becomes invisible; that is removed, so there is nothing left. However, anyone under the effects of true seeing will still see the "whatever visual manifestations typically accompany the spell", so you're invisible to people with see invisibility or true seeing active. This is actually really bloody brilliant, and if the feat were intentionally designed this way, I'd honestly applaud it, but it's probably a writer trying to find a synonym for "invisible" and overcomplicating things.

Of course, it's easy enough to ignore that stupid "visual manifestation" and just read "invisibility", but that's not what the feat says.

Wow thats really cool. I never thought of it that way.

[Psyren]

It doesn't make the spell invisible, that's the problem. "You can modify any spell you cast so that it carries no visual manifestation". The "visual manifestation" of invisibility is that the target becomes invisible; that is removed, so there is nothing left. However, anyone under the effects of true seeing will still see the "whatever visual manifestations typically accompany the spell", so you're invisible to people with see invisibility or true seeing active. This is actually really bloody brilliant, and if the feat were intentionally designed this way, I'd honestly applaud it, but it's probably a writer trying to find a synonym for "invisible" and overcomplicating things.

Of course, it's easy enough to ignore that stupid "visual manifestation" and just read "invisibility", but that's not what the feat says.

"Invisible" isn't just a visual manifestation though - it's a condition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#invisible), which the spell gives you. So even if you're correct and the visual manifestation is no longer visible, that doesn't mean it cancels out to make you visible - you still have the condition, therefore you are still "visually undetectable" by RAW.

[ExLibrisMortis]

"Invisible" isn't just a visual manifestation though - it's a condition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#invisible), which the spell gives you. So even if you're correct and the visual manifestation is no longer visible, that doesn't mean it cancels out to make you visible - you still have the condition, therefore you are still "visually undetectable" by RAW.
Hmmm... can objects have conditions? I think they can't, right? Certainly the description of Invisible references creatures only.

I mention it because invisibility targets objects, as well.

So you're getting a situation where Invisible invisibility unambigiously works as I described for objects, whereas Invisible invisible creatures should by rights appear as normal, except that they still have the "invisible" condition and thus cannot be visually detected--an apparent contradiction that can be resolved either way.

I'd say that Invisible invisibility still protects against true seeing. You're still getting the "invisible" condition, and although true seeing is an exception to "visually undetectable" (N.B. true seeing does not remove the "invisible" condition--it has to be an exception to the condition), Invisible Spell's "normal visual manifestation" (making you invisible/transparent/whatever) is an exception to that. At this point you have the "invisible" condition and the spell has its normal visual manifestation--there is no contradiction to resolve.

[Powerdork]

I told you not to consider it! 😜

Also consider that Invisible invisibility is still invisibility when it comes to like spell effect stuff, so you can probably be invisible to regular vision or magic detection, but not both at once.

[el minster]

But if you cast invisibility and invisible invisibility …

[Powerdork]

If you cast invisibility and Invisible invisibility, my point is that page 172 of the Player's Handbook, 'Same Effect with Differing Results', prevents you from benefiting from both, since they're both invisibility, but we're getting disastrously off-topic already and any more discussion should deserve a new thread.

[Psyren]

Hmmm... can objects have conditions? I think they can't, right? Certainly the description of Invisible references creatures only.

I mention it because invisibility targets objects, as well.

Objects can be incorporeal too, which is another condition, so I'd say there's a degree of common sense to be added in here.

[Segev]

Like I said, it's no different than asking what color the white fence is once you paint it with white paint.

I think Invisible fog cloud remains the best use of the feat that doesn't raise immediate questions of abuse vs. effect. (Invisible summon monster raises...questions...but is either really good to the point of probably being too good, or really not worth it.)

Invisible buff spells for social events where you want to hide that you've got them does sound like a cool idea, though.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Objects can be incorporeal too, which is another condition, so I'd say there's a degree of common sense to be added in here.
True, but I was trying to avoid invoking common sense. If common sense is in the picture, then Invisible invisibility doesn't make you invisible, because common sense dictates the condition is the visual manifestation, and that gets removed.


Like I said, it's no different than asking what color the white fence is once you paint it with white paint.
It's more like asking "what colour is the fence if you paint it white with paint that doesn't have paint in it?".

[Psyren]

True, but I was trying to avoid invoking common sense. If common sense is in the picture, then Invisible invisibility doesn't make you invisible, because common sense dictates the condition is the visual manifestation, and that gets removed.

But removing the visual manifestation doesn't change the text of the spell, is my point.


It's more like asking "what colour is the fence if you paint it white with paint that doesn't have paint in it?".

No, it's like asking "what color is the fence if you paint it with invisible paint that turns things white?

[ExLibrisMortis]

But removing the visual manifestation doesn't change the text of the spell, is my point.
Well... what else would it change? It's not like psionics, where you have a separate Manifestation entry. Invisible Spell definitely changes the visual manifestation, which is described in the spell text.


No, it's like asking "what color is the fence if you paint it with invisible paint that turns things white?
I like that one, too, and perhaps the different ways of reading that final part explains why we're having trouble pinning down the definitive interaction between these spells.

The two ways of reading "invisible paint that turns things white" are as follows:

(1) [invisible [paint that turns things white]]
(2) [[invisible paint] that turns things white]

The first arguably leads to fence that looks non-painted. It would've been white, but the paint is invisible, so it isn't.
The second arguably leads to a white fence that doesn't look painted. The paint is invisible, but it turns the fence white anyway.

I think (1) is better, and you think (2) is better. No saying who's right, really.

[Nifft]

Invisible Spell is a bad feat, poorly considered and poorly written.

This shouldn't be news to anyone here.

[Quertus]

If it's something like a court function, especially in a court with a great deal of intrigue going on, expect everyone who matters to have magical defenses. Craft Contingent Resilient Sphere set to trigger on themselves if they are attacked, for example. Resilient Sphere also blocks Line of Effect which means it can be used to create a hole in anti-teleport defenses so pair it with a Craft Contingent Teleport and it lets them escape the vast majority of assassinations (especially poorly planned ones). Telepathic Bonds to keep in discreet communication with guards or servants,

Nice to know I'm not the only one who appreciates how awesome that spell is :smallbiggrin: (and the telepathy is nice, too)


Anyway, my GM noped using the hat of disguise to disguise away looking like I have barkskin/heart of water etc on me

Per your request, I won't rag on your GM, but… that's normally kinda my thing…