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Rivaler
2020-05-05, 07:35 AM
I can't quite settle on which among these classes to take to better fill the support role.

Lore Bard
Possibly VHuman + Inspiring Leader.
Great versatility thanks to the additional magical secrets.

Glamour Bard
Again, possibly VHuman + Inspiring Leader.
Has some other uses for bardic inspiration that I like a lot, allowing people to move as a reaction and gaining some tactical advantage, while still being a bard

Illusion Wizard
I feel like this has some great tools for battlefield control. Creation + Malleable Illusions and Illusory Reality ( + Mirage Arcane ) seem terrific abilities.

Which one would you play, and why, between these 3 choices?

Guy Lombard-O
2020-05-05, 08:10 AM
I can't quite settle on which among these classes to take to better fill the support role.

Lore Bard
Possibly VHuman + Inspiring Leader.
Great versatility thanks to the additional magical secrets.

Glamour Bard
Again, possibly VHuman + Inspiring Leader.
Has some other uses for bardic inspiration that I like a lot, allowing people to move as a reaction and gaining some tactical advantage, while still being a bard

Illusion Wizard
I feel like this has some great tools for battlefield control. Creation + Malleable Illusions and Illusory Reality ( + Mirage Arcane ) seem terrific abilities.

Which one would you play, and why, between these 3 choices?

Having played both classes, I can say that I greatly prefer Bards. The subclass I'd play would probably be based upon the rest of the party. If there was a lack of other casters in the party, I'd probably go Lore so I could pick up a few key spells to plug some gaps. Otherwise, I'd probably play the Glamour bard, since it seems fun and I'd like to try it out.

I'd also point out that the great tools of the Illusion wizard are mostly high level ones. Neither of the combos you mention come online until level 9.

Deathtongue
2020-05-05, 08:20 AM
Depends what level I'm starting at and what expansion material I'm using. However, generally, Lore Bard is better at the support role. As in, Lore Bard > Glamour Bard > Well-played Illusionist Wizard. Their level 3 and 6 features are just so good. Cutting words has saved my butt so many times when I'm using Web/Earthen Grasp or just when we're doing non-combat stuff. They don't really have any internal competition for their reaction (unless they grab Counterspell, which is a very good idea) or bonus action. And this is in addition to the rest of the bard features like the spell list and Expertise. Cutting Words also gets stronger as the game goes on. Not just because of the die size increase, but because you (or rather, your party) get a number of combat options that relies on the monster to make checks to get out of. And penalizing enemy initiative. Or just screwing someone over in the town phase by hurting their Insight or Perception check.

As far as Glamour Bard goes: that's why I asked about level. That level 3 feature is incredibly strong when you get it. If you're playing in the level 3 - 7 range, I'd say it even beats the Lore Bard slightly. However, it gets worse as the game goes on because your allies will have their own movement options and the temporary hp gets proportionately less and less. Not to mention that the Mantle feature competes with your bonus action, which will come at a premium as the game goes on. And frankly, the level 6 option of the Glamour Bard is just okay unless you're really pressed for spell slots or you have something good to do with your action, which again will be less likely as the game goes on. That's why I say that Lore Bard gets modestly stronger than Glamour Bard in terms of support at around level 8 or so.

airless_wing
2020-05-05, 08:20 AM
Glamour Bards get one of the best uses of Bard Inspiration with Mantle of Inspiration, imo. 3-5 of your allies gain 5-8 Temp HP (at most common levels) each, AND can move, meaning you can keep your squishies safe, tanks in important places, and foil enemy flanking attempts.

At lvl 5 (and assuming 16 Charisma), you can provide 24 temp HP to your team 3 times per short rest, Glamour Bards make incredible support casters, even before involving the bards highly versatile spell list. Bump your charisma up, and this force only gets better and better.

I will say, you might have some redundancy with Mantle of Inspiration and Inspiring Leader, since Temp HP doesn't stack. You could save your Mantle for when the first batch of Temp HP is gone. But overall, that small overlap isn't enough for me to dissuade you from a Glamour Bard. They are top-tier support, and their battlefield control is incredible.

Alucard89
2020-05-05, 03:16 PM
Lore Bard is absolutely amazing.

I suggest Variant Human 1 Hexblade/X Lore Bard. Maybe even 2 Hexblade/18 Lore Bard. Start with RES (CON) or Warcaster depending if you will invest in melee later (Spirit Guardians etc.) or back line caster. Or 1 Life/Knowledge Cleric/X Lore Bard.

You have great AC, great defense, SAD CHA, blade cantrips and as Lore Bard you have all the support you need: healing word, hypnotic pattern etc. If you want to increase your support role take on level 6 Haste + Revifiy (if not cleric) and later take Cricle of Power.

Your cutting words is tons of support, you have tons of expertise so you can substitute lack of Rogue (Stealth + SoH), lack of Wizard (Arcana), lack of Ranger (Survival) etc.

Lore Bard is imo best

Wizard_Lizard
2020-05-05, 04:50 PM
Bards are like... the de facto support class. Particularily if you go lore and snag some additional magical secrets, they can be played almost any way. Glamour bard is really fun too tho.

Agent-KI7KO
2020-05-05, 05:01 PM
Hi, i play a level 12 Glamour Bard with IL, and i bring you a warning: Whenever you don’t attend a session, both the GM and whoever is on heal duty WILL notice.

Seriously consider Destructive Wave as part of your Magical Secrets because at some point you’re going to be targeted for ambush by invisible/teleporting enemies.

Spore
2020-05-05, 05:06 PM
Personally traditional wizards are not "support". But I like a lot of utility in my kits. But in 5e, I like both classes equally really. Both have their place. But honestly, it kinda depends on your group. If your group generally likes being confrontational, and dislikes preparing and investigation, a bard is probably better. If they are a bit more subtle, and like gaining intelligence about tasks before they face it, a wiazrd is very fun.

If all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like nails. A bard can at least cheer the barbarian wielding the hammer on. Meanwhile the wizard just stands there, sighs and tries not to be angry too long because the barbarian said it is unhonorable to cast sleep on all the nails, and then coup de grace them.

Eldariel
2020-05-06, 12:50 AM
There's the difference in the kinds of support they provide. But both are good. If we try to force a direct comparison, I'd say non-Lore Bard loses out to Wizard in many senses (Wizard's ritual casting is absolutely amazing, Wizard starts with a familiar, Wizard has easy access to potion chuggers and such, Wizard spells are in general stronger), but it's hard to compete with Cutting Words. Lore Bard is great.

Of all Wizard specialties Diviner is perhaps the closest there (or Chronurgist if we count Wildemount stuff): being able to make allies just succeed or enemies just fail is immensely strong. However, Bard gets it 5/short rest pretty early while Wizard only ever gets to do it 3/long rest. And those are often best spent making enemies fail saves on your control spells, so their ally protection utility isn't that amazing.

Anyways, Illusionist...Illusionist is a superb controller. However, it really takes off on level 11 (when you get permanent Major Images), while Lore Bard has been doing its thing since level 3. That said, Illusionist is really good ever since Malleable Illusions hits the board.


Much of what Wizard does better than Bard is related to ritual casting and day-to-day variety. Wizard doesn't need to know its Detect Magic to use it nor does he need to prepare Detect Thoughts or Charm Person for a dungeon delve but he can prep those for the day in town when they're needed. Bard meanwhile needs to invest one of its very few (22 on level 20) spells known to have access to the ritual, or a feat (it is important to remember that Bard can have the whole Wizard Ritual Casting for a single feat so in that sense this difference isn't impossibly broad). Meanwhile, a Wizard has 25 spells prepared and practically infinite spell llist.

So Wizard can have different support effects for different days while Bard is working off one generic list. This makes the comparison hard since it's so very campaign specific but I'd say I'd generally miss a Wizard more than a Bard but I definitely would like to have a Lore Bard in every party I play in as they enable stuff nobody else really does (grapple/prone a Troll on level 3? Why not, you've got a Lore Bard).

CTurbo
2020-05-06, 04:40 AM
Bard is better for support and more versatile IMO.

Only a Divine Soul Sorcerer can compete with the Bard in support also IMO.

Aaron Underhand
2020-05-06, 08:58 AM
I played a human lore bard with the healer feat, and dipped one level of wizard at 2nd level. Such versatility, such fun...

Rivaler
2020-05-06, 11:10 AM
Thanks everyone for the replies!

I think you kinda convinced me that bard is the way to go. As for which college, I'm still uncertain. It seems you all like lore, so I might try that, maybe spraying in a bit of Divine Soul Sorcerer, like 17 Bard and 3 DS Sorc. Getting Aid and other useful stuff seems nice.

MarkVIIIMarc
2020-05-06, 11:59 AM
Thanks everyone for the replies!

I think you kinda convinced me that bard is the way to go. As for which college, I'm still uncertain. It seems you all like lore, so I might try that, maybe spraying in a bit of Divine Soul Sorcerer, like 17 Bard and 3 DS Sorc. Getting Aid and other useful stuff seems nice.

I prefer Lore Bard myself. It sounds like you have things planned out. The slow changing of available spells for Bards does require that.

Wizards sometimes get nerfed or buffed by DMs not "charging" for writing spells into books or DMs making it more or less difficult to source spells than whatever it should be

Man_Over_Game
2020-05-06, 09:31 PM
Lore Bards are generalists that are good in combat, and are better in smaller teams where they aren't as redundant and their single target Reaction has more impact.

Glamour Bards are a support that dominates the social environment, better with more players as most of their effects impact multiple targets.

Wizards have some of the best battlefield control and has mastery over the niche non-combat effects you'd expect from magic (like teleporting, enchanting a base, etc). Better in groups, as you'll have more resources to use with their unique utility, more protection for their powerful Concentration spells, as well as more comboing with your battlefield effects.

I wouldn't call the Illusion school a support, though. More like a trickster-type (like what I'd label an Arcana Trickster) that can occasionally help their allies. Conjuration or Divination definitely are supports, just with different priorities over combat vs. non-combat.

I'd say what's better is what compliments your group.


If you have an Arcana Cleric, you don't need a Wizard.
If you have a Redemption Paladin, you don't need a Glamour Bard.
If you have an Arcane Trickster, you might not need the Lore Bard.


Fill the emptiest void and you'll add the most to the group.

Deathtongue
2020-05-07, 08:53 AM
If you have an Arcana Cleric, you don't need a Wizard.
If you have a Redemption Paladin, you don't need a Glamour Bard.
If you have an Arcane Trickster, you might not need the Lore Bard.
I strongly disagree with all of these. And I mean strongly. What led you to these conclusions? Arcana Cleric has very different strengths from a Wizard, both noncombat and combat. Same for Redemption Paladin vis-a-vis Glamour Bard. The only one I'll even kinda-sorta-vaguely agree with is Arcane Trickster and Bard and that would be purely for social roleplay with no combat.

Man_Over_Game
2020-05-07, 09:42 AM
I strongly disagree with all of these. And I mean strongly. What led you to these conclusions? Arcana Cleric has very different strengths from a Wizard, both noncombat and combat. Same for Redemption Paladin vis-a-vis Glamour Bard. The only one I'll even kinda-sorta-vaguely agree with is Arcane Trickster and Bard and that would be purely for social roleplay with no combat.
It's due to somewhat-redundant specializations.

Arcana Cleric has a lot of the unique Arcane utility you'd expect from a Wizard or Sorcerer support. Tack on Ritual Caster:Wizard and you got the whole shebang. The Wizard still has some good battlefield effects that the Arcana Cleric can't duplicate, but those aren't generally unique to the Wizard. A Sorcerer could probably do just fine.

Redemption Paladin and Glamour Bard both have a specialization towards peaceful socializing events.
Additionally, Redemption Paladin's combat features center around enabling your melee allies to live longer.and fight better. Coincidentally, the same could be said about the Glamour Bard. They still have their differences (Bards heal/support/skill, Paladins smash/tank) but the uniqueness of those subclasses risk being redundant.

The comparison on the Lore Bard vs. Arcane Trickster was designed around the fact
They both focus heavily on skills.
They both use magic for utility in combat.
They both provide mild-modest weapon damage.
They're both lightly armored

.
In a way, the Lore Bard could be summarized as the Full Casting version of the Arcane Trickster. It's not necessarily that they both can't work together, but that they're both generalists that would have to be squeezed hard to do anything that was unique and not redundant.

Rather than have two characters that are heavily focused on skills, making ranged Dexterity attacks, casting mild battlefield control spells and can both bodyblock for your Wizard, you could simply just have one or both characters pick a specialty on opposite sides of the spectrum. A Arcane Trickster and Glamour Bard combo is interesting and diverse enough for both to feel powerful in their personal element.

Eldariel
2020-05-07, 12:52 PM
It's due to somewhat-redundant specializations.

Arcana Cleric has a lot of the unique Arcane utility you'd expect from a Wizard or Sorcerer support. Tack on Ritual Caster:Wizard and you got the whole shebang. The Wizard still has some good battlefield effects that the Arcana Cleric can't duplicate, but those aren't generally unique to the Wizard. A Sorcerer could probably do just fine.

This I completely disagree with. Arcana Cleric is still a Cleric: better at bruising and fighting in the frontlines but certainly second-best as a caster particularly as the big one, Spirit Guardians, doesn't work if you're not in the fray (and the whole Arcana Wizardtrip thingy is far less impressive without SCAGtrips). It doesn't get Wizard high level spells until level 17 and in any case, one spell from each level still doesn't come close to doing the things Wizard does for the party.

Off the top of my head, huge spells Arcana Cleric can't replicate:
1. Sleep, Find Familiar, Silent Image, Fog Cloud
2. Levitate, Suggestion, Web, Misty Step, Invisibility
3. Counterspell, Sleet Storm, Hypnotic Pattern/Fear, Haste, Slow, Fireball, Phantom Steed, Tiny Hut (though Rit Caster does get the last two)
4. Polymorph, Black Tentacles, Summon Greater Demon, Watery Sphere
5. Wall of Force, Animate Objects, Bigby's Hand, Telekinesis, Synaptic Static

I just listed pretty much every top tier offensive spell for Wizard from these levels. Arcana Clerics get not a single one of them. Far as AOE goes, Arcana Clerics aren't even in the same ballpark as Wizards. Same goes for fighting vs. Legendary Resistance/Magic Resistance, summoning, big buffs, etc. For most of their career, they don't do anything similar to what a Wizard is doing for the party. Their slight overlap is in divinations and damage but even there, the ways they go about them is very different. And of course that's before getting to school abilities: Arcana Clerics simply have nothing similar to what a Diviner/Illusionist/Necromancer/Chronurgist/War Wizard/etc. brings to the table.

The level 17 ability is just late and even that doesn't replicate even most of the awesome that Wizards get 11-17. Sure, you get one pick and Wish can go further to replicate all-day utility. This does nothing to replicate Shapechange/True Polymorph, using Wish for Mind Blank leaves you a 9th level slot short, Wizard can create a simulacrum missing a 7th instead of a 9th level slot, etc.


And similarly, Arcana Clerics have their list of spells Wizard wished they had such as Bless, Spiritual Weapon, Silence, Spirit Guardians, Conjure Celestial, etc.

Ashrym
2020-05-07, 01:19 PM
It's due to somewhat-redundant specializations.

Arcana Cleric has a lot of the unique Arcane utility you'd expect from a Wizard or Sorcerer support. Tack on Ritual Caster:Wizard and you got the whole shebang. The Wizard still has some good battlefield effects that the Arcana Cleric can't duplicate, but those aren't generally unique to the Wizard. A Sorcerer could probably do just fine.

Redemption Paladin and Glamour Bard both have a specialization towards peaceful socializing events.
Additionally, Redemption Paladin's combat features center around enabling your melee allies to live longer.and fight better. Coincidentally, the same could be said about the Glamour Bard. They still have their differences (Bards heal/support/skill, Paladins smash/tank) but the uniqueness of those subclasses risk being redundant.

The comparison on the Lore Bard vs. Arcane Trickster was designed around the fact
They both focus heavily on skills.
They both use magic for utility in combat.
They both provide mild-modest weapon damage.
They're both lightly armored

.
In a way, the Lore Bard could be summarized as the Full Casting version of the Arcane Trickster. It's not necessarily that they both can't work together, but that they're both generalists that would have to be squeezed hard to do anything that was unique and not redundant.

Rather than have two characters that are heavily focused on skills, making ranged Dexterity attacks, casting mild battlefield control spells and can both bodyblock for your Wizard, you could simply just have one or both characters pick a specialty on opposite sides of the spectrum. A Arcane Trickster and Glamour Bard combo is interesting and diverse enough for both to feel powerful in their personal element.

Yes, to an extent, except paladins and rogues focus a lot more on physical combat while bards in general use more magic to support the party, and neither adds casting ability at the same rate. It's different playstyles in combat.

Clerics and druids both lean to support casting as well so mentioning the cleric as an option works but it depends on the OP's goals for support.

Personally, I think valor bard is a great choice. The college adds to the options bardic inspiration grants others while cutting words or peerless skill competes with inspiring others, and the proficiencies are better suited to front line support.

For general support the bard tends to be the way to go because of the benefits with ability checks, inspiration dice, and versatile spell selection regardless of college. The OP is looking a caster focus based on the first post so lore or glamour. Which is better really depends on the campaign and party makeup (which you already brought up).


This I completely disagree with. Arcana Cleric is still a Cleric: better at bruising and fighting in the frontlines but certainly second-best as a caster particularly as the big one, Spirit Guardians, doesn't work if you're not in the fray (and the whole Arcana Wizardtrip thingy is far less impressive without SCAGtrips). It doesn't get Wizard high level spells until level 17 and in any case, one spell from each level still doesn't come close to doing the things Wizard does for the party.

Off the top of my head, huge spells Arcana Cleric can't replicate:
1. Sleep, Find Familiar, Silent Image, Fog Cloud
2. Levitate, Suggestion, Web, Misty Step, Invisibility
3. Counterspell, Sleet Storm, Hypnotic Pattern/Fear, Haste, Slow, Fireball, Phantom Steed, Tiny Hut (though Rit Caster does get the last two)
4. Polymorph, Black Tentacles, Summon Greater Demon, Watery Sphere
5. Wall of Force, Animate Objects, Bigby's Hand, Telekinesis, Synaptic Static

I just listed pretty much every top tier offensive spell for Wizard from these levels. Arcana Clerics get not a single one of them. Far as AOE goes, Arcana Clerics aren't even in the same ballpark as Wizards. Same goes for fighting vs. Legendary Resistance/Magic Resistance, summoning, big buffs, etc. For most of their career, they don't do anything similar to what a Wizard is doing for the party. Their slight overlap is in divinations and damage but even there, the ways they go about them is very different. And of course that's before getting to school abilities: Arcana Clerics simply have nothing similar to what a Diviner/Illusionist/Necromancer/Chronurgist/War Wizard/etc. brings to the table.

The level 17 ability is just late and even that doesn't replicate even most of the awesome that Wizards get 11-17. Sure, you get one pick and Wish can go further to replicate all-day utility. This does nothing to replicate Shapechange/True Polymorph, using Wish for Mind Blank leaves you a 9th level slot short, Wizard can create a simulacrum missing a 7th instead of a 9th level slot, etc.


And similarly, Arcana Clerics have their list of spells Wizard wished they had such as Bless, Spiritual Weapon, Silence, Spirit Guardians, Conjure Celestial, etc.

Lol, if all those spells were necessary no caster could do it, not even wizards. Not that you are saying all are necessary, of course, it was just my first thought. The followup to that thought is if any of the list isn't necessary then none of the list is necessary.

Spirit guardians is good, flame strike is another example for AoE, and clerics summon spells too. The point of arcana cleric over wizard is good enough combat spells plus all that healing and AC.

A cleric can get by with a few couple good combat spells just like other casters. Arcana clerics just don't have the range of battlefield control options we see with a wizard or bard.

Eldariel
2020-05-07, 02:17 PM
Lol, if all those spells were necessary no caster could do it, not even wizards. Not that you are saying all are necessary, of course, it was just my first thought. The followup to that thought is if any of the list isn't necessary then none of the list is necessary.

Spirit guardians is good, flame strike is another example for AoE, and clerics summon spells too. The point of arcana cleric over wizard is good enough combat spells plus all that healing and AC.

A cleric can get by with a few couple good combat spells just like other casters. Arcana clerics just don't have the range of battlefield control options we see with a wizard or bard.

Nothing in this game is "necessary", but certainly there's no substitute particularly for the high AOE CC (Sleep, Web, Hypnotic Pattern, etc.) so a party with those abilities is able to take on far tougher challenges than a party without them on average. Getting similar effects one-two spell levels later just isn't even remotely comparable, and many of the best Wizard effects are never replicated by a Cleric of any persuasion.

Also, Cleric gets summons...on level 13. That's just not comparable to what Druid/Bard gets and not with the Wizard either. They're able to do those to a degree, but they're far worse at them. Thus they cannot in any capacity make up for a party lacking a Wizard, or even a Bard for that matter, which was the original argument. Arcana Cleric is little better than any other Cleric far as doing the Wizard's job in the party; that is to say, none of them are able to. Wizard brings a ton of stuff on the table that Clerics can't do and a party with a Wizard and a Cleric is generally better than a party without one or the other (indeed, I posit the stronger possible party measured in ability to deal with numerous difficult encounters of different types is probably Wizard/Cleric/Druid/Bard).

HiveStriker
2020-05-08, 03:47 AM
I can't quite settle on which among these classes to take to better fill the support role.

Lore Bard
Possibly VHuman + Inspiring Leader.
Great versatility thanks to the additional magical secrets.

Glamour Bard
Again, possibly VHuman + Inspiring Leader.
Has some other uses for bardic inspiration that I like a lot, allowing people to move as a reaction and gaining some tactical advantage, while still being a bard

Illusion Wizard
I feel like this has some great tools for battlefield control. Creation + Malleable Illusions and Illusory Reality ( + Mirage Arcane ) seem terrific abilities.

Which one would you play, and why, between these 3 choices?
Best support is Shepherd Druid anyways.
With that out of the bag... :smalltongue:

Of all three you expose Wizard is definitely the lesser.
"Support" is simply not in its conception, contrarily to Bard, although you could of course make your personal goal to only learn an array of Wizard spells that primarily buff/help others being better at what they do.

Thing is, that's really what Bard is geared to do in every aspect of it.
- First, healing: best way to help someone is keeping him living and sane. Although Bard needs to use Magic Secrets if he wants best restorative spells, he can at least cure all main ailments. Wizard has simply no access to that whatsoever (excepted Clone? Don't remember if self-spell).
- Second, action economy in "helping": Bardic Inspiration is 10mn long, can be focused or distributed, and recharge on a short rest soon enough. Plus it does fuel of a specific resource, so you're not eating up your magic.
- Third, class and archetype features: Jack of All Trades is another way to get decent chance at anything nobody is proficient into, and since strangely by RAW it counts as proficiency Skill Empowerement could apply (Enhance Ability is probably giving better cost/benefit ratio though), you can enhance party self(heal, you get extra good in several skills naturally with Expertise.
- Fourth, Magic Secrets: that alone allows you, IF you really want to anchor into the support role and keep your mind attentive to how party works, to grab the most appropriate spells to shore up blatant void in party-wide array of options.

And both Lore and Glamour provide solid features. Honestly both are great: for a pure support I'd tend to favor Glamour because of the "party-wide THP + reaction-free move", which is really huge. But Lore Bard gets some Magic Secrets as soon as level 6, and depending on party composition this may still be far more valuable (small party? Conjure Animals. Party without anticasting? Counterspell. Party with high death risk? Healing Spirit -unnerfed- or Aura of Vitality possibly, etc).

Lore Bard is the "easiest" to play because its specialties are pretty straightforward, especially Cutting Words, and has very few fluff strings attached.
Glamour Bard requires a bit more finesse to trigger the reaction effect optimally, and I feel it does push you to roleplay with a certain mindset/flavour, but it's great in its own way too.

If I had to choose without any assumption about rest of party, apart than knowing we'd be 4-5 at most in total, I'd probably toss a coin. :)

Ashrym
2020-05-08, 01:52 PM
Nothing in this game is "necessary", but certainly there's no substitute particularly for the high AOE CC (Sleep, Web, Hypnotic Pattern, etc.) so a party with those abilities is able to take on far tougher challenges than a party without them on average. Getting similar effects one-two spell levels later just isn't even remotely comparable, and many of the best Wizard effects are never replicated by a Cleric of any persuasion.

Also, Cleric gets summons...on level 13. That's just not comparable to what Druid/Bard gets and not with the Wizard either. They're able to do those to a degree, but they're far worse at them. Thus they cannot in any capacity make up for a party lacking a Wizard, or even a Bard for that matter, which was the original argument. Arcana Cleric is little better than any other Cleric far as doing the Wizard's job in the party; that is to say, none of them are able to. Wizard brings a ton of stuff on the table that Clerics can't do and a party with a Wizard and a Cleric is generally better than a party without one or the other (indeed, I posit the stronger possible party measured in ability to deal with numerous difficult encounters of different types is probably Wizard/Cleric/Druid/Bard).

Sleep is great early and loses steam quickly. Web isn't something I've found terribly impressive because sleep has no save and then hypnotic pattern appears so I find it more an alternative save / immunities fallback. Hypnotic pattern is really good so no arguments there.

Clerics still have command, sanctuary, and calm emotions for control. They have some status effects and AoE. I am not arguing a they match a wizard in these areas. I am arguing they have these options. The difference is clerics have these options and better healing / status effect removal. The argument is the cleric brings a bunch of stuff a wizard typically does. The trick is taking a domain to match what the player wants.

Wizards have better CC options (it's the best thing about the class imo) but CC isn't the only part of party support.

If summons were important to me I would go druid. Bards have jack for summons outside of secrets though, while the arcana cleric mentioned has planar binding, planar ally, and conjure celestial.

The real thing to consider is having no substitute for something that is not needed would not hold a party back, and you agreed they aren't required. ;-)

DDB already demonstrated this when they released party make-up statistics by party size and it turned out wizards were typically skipped in 3 PC parties as the least required. Those groups are typically a rogue, cleric or druid, and a front line meat shield of some sort.

If I did not include healing and removing status effects as part of support I might claim wizard as much better than cleric but either class is just better at different aspects of support than the other.

SociopathFriend
2020-05-08, 02:05 PM
DDB already demonstrated this when they released party make-up statistics by party size and it turned out wizards were typically skipped in 3 PC parties as the least required. Those groups are typically a rogue, cleric or druid, and a front line meat shield of some sort.


Do you have a link for that? That sounds fascinating to read.

Eldariel
2020-05-08, 02:19 PM
The real thing to consider is having no substitute for something that is not needed would not hold a party back, and you agreed they aren't required. ;-)

DDB already demonstrated this when they released party make-up statistics by party size and it turned out wizards were typically skipped in 3 PC parties as the least required. Those groups are typically a rogue, cleric or druid, and a front line meat shield of some sort.

If I did not include healing and removing status effects as part of support I might claim wizard as much better than cleric but either class is just better at different aspects of support than the other.

Oh, certainly, but I'd say Wizard is the most powerful class for solo play (from level 1: no classes have as good tools for surviving level 1 solo as Wizard), the most powerful addition to a two-man party of any level, and a huge addition to any three-man party. Just because people don't play them doesn't mean it's not optimal. Indeed, DDB statistics tell precious little: peoples' reason for picking their class is rarely optimality first, and even if it were, peoples' idea of what's truly optimal in this edition is kinda weird. Even these fairly high mastery forums are full of strange misconceptions about what's truly necessary in a party (whenever I say I believe the strongest possible 4-man party is Wizard/Cleric/Bard/Druid or some variation thereof, I get people pointing out that the lack of a Fighter/Pally/Rogue/whatever is somehow crippling with no solid arguments to backup their claim).

I mean, do you really need to kill Zariel solo on level 9 very often? Just because it's possible doesn't mean that's the level of opposition you generally have to deal with: most modules assume that to be impossible and instead give you a ton of toys and help you don't need, not to mention a party that probably wants in on the action too and thus some Glyph trap or whatever is probably not the most fun way to go about it no matter how efficient. So we can't conclude optimality based on player decisions, especially not those of the masses.

Kobold_paladin?
2020-05-08, 02:30 PM
I feel that wizard is more of an artillery for the party, regardless of their school and that the bard is a buff/debuffer foe them. not much going on here, hope it helped though.:smallbiggrin:

peace in the galax's ease, k_pal?

Agent-KI7KO
2020-05-08, 03:03 PM
Do you have a link for that? That sounds fascinating to read.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-iHM6iO3sE

Somewhere in there.

HiveStriker
2020-05-09, 07:09 AM
Oh, certainly, but I'd say Wizard is the most powerful class for solo play (from level 1: no classes have as good tools for surviving level 1 solo as Wizard), the most powerful addition to a two-man party of any level, and a huge addition to any three-man party. Just because people don't play them doesn't mean it's not optimal. Indeed, DDB statistics tell precious little: peoples' reason for picking their class is rarely optimality first, and even if it were, peoples' idea of what's truly optimal in this edition is kinda weird. Even these fairly high mastery forums are full of strange misconceptions about what's truly necessary in a party (whenever I say I believe the strongest possible 4-man party is Wizard/Cleric/Bard/Druid or some variation thereof, I get people pointing out that the lack of a Fighter/Pally/Rogue/whatever is somehow crippling with no solid arguments to backup their claim).

I'm sorry to be the one breaking it to you, but the most powerful class in all three situations when there is no other context provided is, has always been, and will probably always be Druid (even more so Moon Druid).

You get spell-free versatile skillset and mobility from level 2. You get some of the best healing (Goodberry, Healing Words, Healing Spirit), traveling (Water spells), "avoiding" (Pass Without Trace) spells before you get level 5. You get early enough a heap of spells that work without fail to alter enemy mobility (Plant Growth) or visibility (Fog Cloud -which fortunately Wizards at least get too). And you can wear armor and shield.
Wizard has no heal, mediocre AC (16 at best at level 1, 17 at best at level 12), so he must spend a great (proportionally speaking) chunk of his whole fuel for the day on defensive spells.

Getting 3rd level spells start making things a bit easier, but you're still frail, with risk of your strategy based on one concentration spell failing and absolutely no body to cover for you (unless you hire mercenaries, if you still have gold left after copying spells). Druid has been able to hire animals to do his bidding for months or years, and now has Conjure Animals on top of being able to transform himself.

And you can liberally use your rituals as a Druid since you can re-prepare from your whole list everyday, whereas Wizard has to either sacrifice interesting non-ritual spell to learn one, or count on luck to find learnable scrolls.

Wizard can get real powerful as a solo class past 5th level spells and gets more and more crazy spells as you level to set up complex strategies that span through days or even weeks by creating safe places, traps and other deterrent tactics, so between level 13 and 18 one could feel more powerful as Wizard because spells are more "self-sufficient" (less depending on DM or how the world is actually influencable).

Then Druids end having permanent "casting Wild Shape". There is little Wizard can do to feel more powerful than that, unless with a lenient DM allowing some kind of Wish cheese to stack custom benefits.

Deathtongue
2020-05-09, 10:16 AM
Wizards have better CC options (it's the best thing about the class imo) but CC isn't the only part of party support.It becomes increasingly important as the game goes on, though. Monster damage scales really quickly past CR5 or so. When you're facing a squad of frost giants or a mix of Chain and Beard Devils, it becomes invaluable to tie them up, even for one round.

Anyway, while I think a Lore/Glamour Bard is better than a Wizard at support, Wizards have Fly and Counterspell. They have much more going for them from that, but if your character can't at least say they can do that as well as these two meta-defining spells they have no business claiming that they're better than Wizards at the support function. An Arcana Cleric is not a replacement for a wizard, without even getting into the fact that the only characters good at INT skills are the bard, Knowledge Cleric, some rogues, and the wizard.

DevilMcam
2020-05-09, 12:51 PM
Nothing in this game is "necessary". a party without one or the other (indeed, I posit the stronger possible party measured in ability to deal with numerous difficult encounters of different types is probably Wizard/Cleric/Druid/Bard).

That a Completely agree with.



Also, Cleric gets summons...on level 13. That's just not comparable to what Druid/Bard gets and not with the Wizard either. They're able to do those to a degree, but they're far worse at them. Thus they cannot in any capacity make up for a party lacking a Wizard, or even a Bard for that matter, which was the original argument. Arcana Cleric is little better than any other Cleric far as doing the Wizard's job in the party; that is to say, none of them are able to. Wizard brings a ton of stuff on the table that Clerics can't do and a party with a Wizard and a Cleric is generally better than a party without one or the other (indeed, I posit the stronger possible party measured in ability to deal with numerous difficult encounters of different types is probably Wizard/Cleric/Druid/Bard).
That however I have to disagree.
First of all, clerics do get annimate dead at level 5 which is a decent summoning spell.
Secondly there is a few areas in which Martials are much stronger than your average spellcaster. extended adventuring days and legnedary monsters are among them no one is better at taking a dragon down that a Bladelock for instance.
an ancient paladin aura is more or less "at will counterspell with no action economy cost"
A fighter's single target Damage is very tough to match, etc...

On of the strongest party I have been part of has 3 "support type" charracters and we have no cleric, no wizard, no bard and our druid is a druid of the moon. Beeing a strong support character in DnD 5e can be done with almost every classe there is.

Eldariel
2020-05-09, 11:29 PM
Re: HiveStriker & DevilMcam:

I'm sorry to be the one breaking it to you, but the most powerful class in all three situations when there is no other context provided is, has always been, and will probably always be Druid (even more so Moon Druid).

You get spell-free versatile skillset and mobility from level 2. You get some of the best healing (Goodberry, Healing Words, Healing Spirit), traveling (Water spells), "avoiding" (Pass Without Trace) spells before you get level 5. You get early enough a heap of spells that work without fail to alter enemy mobility (Plant Growth) or visibility (Fog Cloud -which fortunately Wizards at least get too). And you can wear armor and shield.
Wizard has no heal, mediocre AC (16 at best at level 1, 17 at best at level 12), so he must spend a great (proportionally speaking) chunk of his whole fuel for the day on defensive spells...

Oh, Druids are great, I completely agree! I don't think it's mostly for the reasons you list here: when you solo, healing spells are pretty redundant as you can't be yoyoing anyone but Goodberry is a nice buffer of extra HP, which combined with Moon Wildshape gives you a lot of EHP to work with on low levels. Utility Wildshape and the awesome summons are the big ones (I'd lean towards Shepherd though surviving the first 4 levels without Moon can be difficult; but it'd be so much better for the remaining 13).

I'm aware of how great the Druid is. Believe you me, I wouldn't be making this kind of claim if I didn't know that. I still believe the Wizard ultimately has the better tools there though: their spells are really good for taking out enemies before enemies can act. They also have good tools for escape and avoidance (Pass without Trace is nice but how about just straight-up Invisibility? Water walking is cool but how about flight/teleportation/phantom steed? On level 1 you've got Expeditious Retreat which allows you to trivialise encounters with average movement speed and no 120'+ range attacks in the open - L. Crossbow at disadvantage suffices for taking things out at 320' and Firebolt/Chill Touch at 120'), they have by far the best set of tools for disabling large numbers of enemies, and starting from level 5 they have Animate Dead, which means they can outsource much of their tanking to armoured Zombies and use Skeletons for free damage. Without Concentration.

The Wizard schools can also grant Initiative bonuses, which are unbelievably important with how swingy the first round of combat can be, though Divination/Illusion/Necromancy can also be incredibly good, and Abjuration would give you the HP buffer if that's what you wanted. You're down to the usual spells like Sleep/Web/Hypno Pattern/Fireball/etc. for dealing with encounters but those spells are really good. When you solo, action economy is your greatest enemy so you need to use reliable AOE.

Druid is also great but it's far less so at disabling large numbers of enemies reliably and it lacks the Expeditious Retreat option of "get the **** outta here when outmatched" AND the "kite enemies to oblivion in open spaces" one. And then there's the familiar. There's something to be said for having an 18 Perception spotter that can spot without you being put into harm's way, and communicates with you telepathically. It's hard to overstate how good that is when a single misstep kills you and you are alone. Other classes can of course Magical Training for it but Alert happens to also be insanely good on low levels.

Overall, the Druid has a great numbers game but the Wizard is better at negating the need for numbers (though the Druid also has good abilities to that effect!). And the less you are reliant on rolls, the better particularly when solo or in a small party, as the dice will go bad sometimes.



That however I have to disagree.
First of all, clerics do get annimate dead at level 5 which is a decent summoning spell.

That's my bad, yeah, Animate Dead is great, and it does give Clerics a great minionmancy effect. I was more thinking about the Summon/Conjure spells endemic to the other lists but obviously Animate Dead is actually the strongest minionmancy effect in the game (equippable, powerful minions with no Concentration cost).


Secondly there is a few areas in which Martials are much stronger than your average spellcaster. extended adventuring days and legnedary monsters are among them no one is better at taking a dragon down that a Bladelock for instance.
an ancient paladin aura is more or less "at will counterspell with no action economy cost"
A fighter's single target Damage is very tough to match, etc...

On of the strongest party I have been part of has 3 "support type" charracters and we have no cleric, no wizard, no bard and our druid is a druid of the moon. Beeing a strong support character in DnD 5e can be done with almost every classe there is.

And this is everything I was referring to: if you have minionmancy, you don't really need anything else. Though having the option of Wall of Force + Wall of Lighting enemies is also nice. Legendary resistance, who cares? You kill things with no checks.

You probably see the inevitable point here: A party with every character being minionmancy-potent is able to put out those unfair "64 vs. 4" type encounters against every single foe they face at extremely low resource cost (practically inexistent around level 7-9). In this edition that just means you win. Legendary resistances? Who cares! Single target damage? Yeah, I'll bet you having a hundred things attacking does single target damage! If you really want to just do single target damage yourself as a caster, you can always put that 1 level into Hexblade as an Evoker and Curse Missile people in the face for a hundred damage on level 10+. Bard can achieve these levels of damage pretty trivially too as can an attacking Wizard once they hit 6th level spells, and Cleric/Druid are fundamentally quite martially able. Hexblade dip would cost you a level of casting putting you further away from stuff that does unsightly things to the game such as Conjure/Summon/Animate whatever, Magic Jar, Simulacrum, Shapechange, etc. so it might not even be optimal.

Ancient Paladin Aura is indeed great, but to gain that, you'd pay up with a character that doesn't have minionmancy, Wish, Shapechange, True Polymorph or any other truly bull**** abilities in the game for a long time. Pally is a great simple run-of-the-mill class but it's really hard to break the game by just doing a lot of damage and having high saves and HP. That's just numbers (even though they are rather impressive). Casters get things like Wall of Force - no-save unbreakable entrapment. Even naturally teleporting things usually rely on line of sight so combine it with simple Pyrotechnics/Fog Cloud and it almost unbreachable (add to that Sickening Radiance or Wall of Light or, hell, Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound as we discussed in that Zariel thread and you're killing archdevils). That's just bull****.

Contingency is bull**** too; you get an extra life essentially. Magic Jar is bull****: you can just permanently steal the body of...say, Gloom Weaver and suddenly you're attacking at two attacks + spell each turn and your attacks are doing 4d12 extra damage. Teleportation and scrying is bull****, Tiny Hut and other impregnable fortresses from which you can freely attack to anything outside you is bull****, etc. In short, most of the Wizard spelllist is bull**** and Bards can replicate a good bunch of it and Druids/Clerics have their own bull**** spells, which are real nice to have in a party (starting from the mentioned Goodberry and Pass without Trace). We aren't even talking Glyph of Warding bull**** (even though that's even more bull****: Concentration-free spell effects at 200gp a pop).

Numbers are great, but you can't put a price on all the bull**** spells in the game; they are irreplaceable. Only casters get to have a bunch of skeletons and a horde of animated objects or a horde of animals or whatever at their disposal. Only casters get to traverse the multiverse by clicking a button. Only casters get to rest safely almost anywhere picking up free experience if anyone tries to bother them on the outside. Only casters get one-way scouting where they put themselves at zero risk. Only casters can ask god everything about the McGuffin and its guardians as well as any rivals they may be dealing with including all their abilities and weak points.

As you can probably imagine, the list would be long if I tried to be exhaustive. The game is designed so that casters just have the better options for everything but dealing personal damage and then they incidentally made things like Magic Jar, Shapechange, etc. not to mention minionmancy to also give casters better or competitive single target damage too

HiveStriker
2020-05-10, 12:07 PM
Re: HiveStriker & DevilMcam:


Oh, Druids are great, I completely agree! I don't think it's mostly for the reasons you list here: when you solo, healing spells are pretty redundant as you can't be yoyoing anyone but Goodberry is a nice buffer of extra HP, which combined with Moon Wildshape gives you a lot of EHP to work with on low levels. Utility Wildshape and the awesome summons are the big ones (I'd lean towards Shepherd though surviving the first 4 levels without Moon can be difficult; but it'd be so much better for the remaining 13).

I'm aware of how great the Druid is. Believe you me, I wouldn't be making this kind of claim if I didn't know that. I still believe the Wizard ultimately has the better tools there though: their spells are really good for taking out enemies before enemies can act. They also have good tools for escape and avoidance (Pass without Trace is nice but how about just straight-up Invisibility? Water walking is cool but how about flight/teleportation/phantom steed? On level 1 you've got Expeditious Retreat which allows you to trivialise encounters with average movement speed and no 120'+ range attacks in the open - L. Crossbow at disadvantage suffices for taking things out at 320' and Firebolt/Chill Touch at 120'), they have by far the best set of tools for disabling large numbers of enemies, and starting from level 5 they have Animate Dead, which means they can outsource much of their tanking to armoured Zombies and use Skeletons for free damage. Without Concentration.

The Wizard schools can also grant Initiative bonuses, which are unbelievably important with how swingy the first round of combat can be, though Divination/Illusion/Necromancy can also be incredibly good, and Abjuration would give you the HP buffer if that's what you wanted. You're down to the usual spells like Sleep/Web/Hypno Pattern/Fireball/etc. for dealing with encounters but those spells are really good. When you solo, action economy is your greatest enemy so you need to use reliable AOE.

Druid is also great but it's far less so at disabling large numbers of enemies reliably and it lacks the Expeditious Retreat option of "get the **** outta here when outmatched" AND the "kite enemies to oblivion in open spaces" one. And then there's the familiar. There's something to be said for having an 18 Perception spotter that can spot without you being put into harm's way, and communicates with you telepathically. It's hard to overstate how good that is when a single misstep kills you and you are alone. Other classes can of course Magical Training for it but Alert happens to also be insanely good on low levels.

Overall, the Druid has a great numbers game but the Wizard is better at negating the need for numbers (though the Druid also has good abilities to that effect!). And the less you are reliant on rolls, the better particularly when solo or in a small party, as the dice will go bad sometimes.




That's my bad, yeah, Animate Dead is great, and it does give Clerics a great minionmancy effect. I was more thinking about the Summon/Conjure spells endemic to the other lists but obviously Animate Dead is actually the strongest minionmancy effect in the game (equippable, powerful minions with no Concentration cost).



And this is everything I was referring to: if you have minionmancy, you don't really need anything else. Though having the option of Wall of Force + Wall of Lighting enemies is also nice. Legendary resistance, who cares? You kill things with no checks.

You probably see the inevitable point here: A party with every character being minionmancy-potent is able to put out those unfair "64 vs. 4" type encounters against every single foe they face at extremely low resource cost (practically inexistent around level 7-9). In this edition that just means you win. Legendary resistances? Who cares! Single target damage? Yeah, I'll bet you having a hundred things attacking does single target damage! If you really want to just do single target damage yourself as a caster, you can always put that 1 level into Hexblade as an Evoker and Curse Missile people in the face for a hundred damage on level 10+. Bard can achieve these levels of damage pretty trivially too as can an attacking Wizard once they hit 6th level spells, and Cleric/Druid are fundamentally quite martially able. Hexblade dip would cost you a level of casting putting you further away from stuff that does unsightly things to the game such as Conjure/Summon/Animate whatever, Magic Jar, Simulacrum, Shapechange, etc. so it might not even be optimal.

Ancient Paladin Aura is indeed great, but to gain that, you'd pay up with a character that doesn't have minionmancy, Wish, Shapechange, True Polymorph or any other truly bull**** abilities in the game for a long time. Pally is a great simple run-of-the-mill class but it's really hard to break the game by just doing a lot of damage and having high saves and HP. That's just numbers (even though they are rather impressive). Casters get things like Wall of Force - no-save unbreakable entrapment. Even naturally teleporting things usually rely on line of sight so combine it with simple Pyrotechnics/Fog Cloud and it almost unbreachable (add to that Sickening Radiance or Wall of Light or, hell, Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound as we discussed in that Zariel thread and you're killing archdevils). That's just bull****.

Contingency is bull**** too; you get an extra life essentially. Magic Jar is bull****: you can just permanently steal the body of...say, Gloom Weaver and suddenly you're attacking at two attacks + spell each turn and your attacks are doing 4d12 extra damage. Teleportation and scrying is bull****, Tiny Hut and other impregnable fortresses from which you can freely attack to anything outside you is bull****, etc. In short, most of the Wizard spelllist is bull**** and Bards can replicate a good bunch of it and Druids/Clerics have their own bull**** spells, which are real nice to have in a party (starting from the mentioned Goodberry and Pass without Trace). We aren't even talking Glyph of Warding bull**** (even though that's even more bull****: Concentration-free spell effects at 200gp a pop).

Numbers are great, but you can't put a price on all the bull**** spells in the game; they are irreplaceable. Only casters get to have a bunch of skeletons and a horde of animated objects or a horde of animals or whatever at their disposal. Only casters get to traverse the multiverse by clicking a button. Only casters get to rest safely almost anywhere picking up free experience if anyone tries to bother them on the outside. Only casters get one-way scouting where they put themselves at zero risk. Only casters can ask god everything about the McGuffin and its guardians as well as any rivals they may be dealing with including all their abilities and weak points.

As you can probably imagine, the list would be long if I tried to be exhaustive. The game is designed so that casters just have the better options for everything but dealing personal damage and then they incidentally made things like Magic Jar, Shapechange, etc. not to mention minionmancy to also give casters better or competitive single target damage too
Well, on your points... (following your technique until we decide whether this is worth a dedicated thread or not ;))

1. Healing is not great for solo, but it's great for others! Depends on DM, but in theory you could easily hire animals to do your bidding as long as a) objective is simple b) understandable reward c) their life is not at risk. So having a mount for example is not hard to make.

2. Yeah, Invisibility is a cool trick, but (apart from the fact you can get is as Land Druid, after all I made the example about Moon first ;)) it ends as soon as you attack or cast a spell.
Furthermore, as far as stealthing go, you simply cannot beat Druid as a Wizard: Druid not only gets the choice between Pass Without Trace and Enhance Ability, he also gets naturally better Perception, being WIS-based, and more importantly he gets beasts forms! IMX it's not until enemy factions of level 8-9 that you start seeing truely paranoid enemies that "spam" Detect Magic or kill any kind of creature on sight within a mile.
And it's if they can see you! Before even flying, Druid access burrowing, high-speed, high-smell forms right at level 2.
Which also brings to the next point.

3. Ability to confront large group of enemies. Both have great spells in that department, and some people may prefer the Wizard ones whatever happens, but Druid's spell have a big merit in that many "just work": casting Plant Growth will effectively nullify melee threats for a big number of rounds. Heat Metal is basically auto-win against an armored guy as long as you can maintain concentration (and since you don't need line of sight past initial cast nothing prevents you from hiding in a tree as a squirrel or burrow out of range).

Although those require line of sight, a similar logic can be applied to Moonbeam and Call Lightning (which gets even easier to take advantage of outdoors once you get flying forms, especially as a Moon Druid ;)).
And you get the "class into the class" Conjure Animals.

4. As far as resilience goes, any Druid can combine spells and Wild Shape to escape harm. But Moon Druid has the advantage of having it as a bonus action, which means you can for exemple cast Warding Wind / Spike Growth / Fog Cloud / Conjure Animals then WildShape in the same turn, or simply WS then Dash/Dodge out of the way.
(You don't need Expeditious Retreat when you can Dash with a base 50 or 60 speed ^^ but if you're really unsure you can always precast Longstrider).

In short, Druid is imo far superior to Wizard in setting up ambushes and escaping when things go hairy (or simply avoid danger in the first place) as long as you care about exploiting everything in its kit. Which is for me a key in survival for a solo character. And that holds true until Wizard starts getting greaties such as Contigency, Animate Objects, Hold Monster, Synaptic Static, Disintegrate, Mass Suggestion, Skill Empowerement... That allows him to craft complex and ingenious plans that span on long times to gradually take power over the world. :)

Eldariel
2020-05-10, 02:36 PM
Well, on your points... (following your technique until we decide whether this is worth a dedicated thread or not ;))

1. Healing is not great for solo, but it's great for others! Depends on DM, but in theory you could easily hire animals to do your bidding as long as a) objective is simple b) understandable reward c) their life is not at risk. So having a mount for example is not hard to make.

2. Yeah, Invisibility is a cool trick, but (apart from the fact you can get is as Land Druid, after all I made the example about Moon first ;)) it ends as soon as you attack or cast a spell.
Furthermore, as far as stealthing go, you simply cannot beat Druid as a Wizard: Druid not only gets the choice between Pass Without Trace and Enhance Ability, he also gets naturally better Perception, being WIS-based, and more importantly he gets beasts forms! IMX it's not until enemy factions of level 8-9 that you start seeing truely paranoid enemies that "spam" Detect Magic or kill any kind of creature on sight within a mile.
And it's if they can see you! Before even flying, Druid access burrowing, high-speed, high-smell forms right at level 2.
Which also brings to the next point.

3. Ability to confront large group of enemies. Both have great spells in that department, and some people may prefer the Wizard ones whatever happens, but Druid's spell have a big merit in that many "just work": casting Plant Growth will effectively nullify melee threats for a big number of rounds. Heat Metal is basically auto-win against an armored guy as long as you can maintain concentration (and since you don't need line of sight past initial cast nothing prevents you from hiding in a tree as a squirrel or burrow out of range).

Although those require line of sight, a similar logic can be applied to Moonbeam and Call Lightning (which gets even easier to take advantage of outdoors once you get flying forms, especially as a Moon Druid ;)).
And you get the "class into the class" Conjure Animals.

4. As far as resilience goes, any Druid can combine spells and Wild Shape to escape harm. But Moon Druid has the advantage of having it as a bonus action, which means you can for exemple cast Warding Wind / Spike Growth / Fog Cloud / Conjure Animals then WildShape in the same turn, or simply WS then Dash/Dodge out of the way.
(You don't need Expeditious Retreat when you can Dash with a base 50 or 60 speed ^^ but if you're really unsure you can always precast Longstrider).

In short, Druid is imo far superior to Wizard in setting up ambushes and escaping when things go hairy (or simply avoid danger in the first place) as long as you care about exploiting everything in its kit. Which is for me a key in survival for a solo character. And that holds true until Wizard starts getting greaties such as Contigency, Animate Objects, Hold Monster, Synaptic Static, Disintegrate, Mass Suggestion, Skill Empowerement... That allows him to craft complex and ingenious plans that span on long times to gradually take power over the world. :)

1. Healing is nice for a small party; that's definitely a point in Druids' favour in that context and I might actually be inclined to agree that a Druid is more indispensable than a Wizard in a party of 2-3 characters.

2. Invisibility and PwT aren't actually that different in this regard: when you attack you surrender your hiding position as well. Now, of course, there's Goblin Druid, which can make great use of PwT to rehide efficiently, but of course that comes at the cost of not using a Concentration spell for combat, so in combat you're liable to drop it anyways. And I'd argue in an optimal case the feat (Alert, Observant, Lucky) is too important on this level to give up Vuman for anything. I'd generally prefer Invisibility simply because it means I'm not reliant on anything to hide in and can go anywhere. PwT becomes much better in a small party again; it takes higher level slots to Invisible everyone while PwT works for the whole party off a 2nd level slot.

3. Yeah, there are some really good Druid spells but again, I'd still lean towards the Wizard list here. I feel like the ability to e.g. defeat an ambush might be limited in terms of Druid as they are really bad disabling large numbers of enemies immediately; most of those are tools that you take a while to work with.

4. Agreed.

However, there are a few factors that aren't being considered here that I'd say weigh heavily in Wizard's favour:
1. Level 1. Before Wildshape Druid is in a really bad place; they have terrible weapon proficiencies for long range combat, they lack melee hardiness (as much as everyone on this level), their spells aren't good at plain knocking enemies out, they lack their key mobility options, etc. Moon Druid really picks up on level 2 and I might just agree that a Druid is better on level 2 but between Familiar, Sleep and Expeditious Retreat, a Wizard certainly has an easier time getting there and between War Wizard, Diviner, Chronurgist, and Abjurer, level 2 does bring a hefty dose of survivability to a Wizard too in some form.

2. Social encounters. Wizard has spells like Disguise Self, Charm Person, Friends, Suggestion, etc. that make a huge difference socially (and especially for milking information and the like) on low levels. Druid is pretty much entirely skill reliant when dealing with humanoids. Some of their spells are also limited in an urban environment.

3. Indirect scouting. Familiar's ability to share senses, its 18-19 passive perception or blindsight (Hawk/Owl/Bat), and 120' darkvision coupled with flight is something a Druid simply can't match (it can get animal friends but they lack telepathy and sense sharing), and it's about the best thing you can have for survivability on level 1. With Observant, a level 1 Druid could have higher passive Perception (20 vs. 18) but it'd be close and that'd be a huge investment. Naturally a Druid overtakes the Owl on level 8 assuming all level-ups in Wis and proficiency but for a good while, Wizard has a huge advantage with the familiar.

4. Long-range combat. Druid's options for utilising range in the open to defeat enemies without them having an opportunity to attack back is quite limited. Druid has no proficiency in any kind of bow and their cantrips are all short range. Aside from Ape, basically no wildshape forms do this too. They have some options for shoring this up but by and large they are always forced into slugfests and trading blows when they fight as opposed to trying to negate enemy's chance of attacking in the first place (the latter is of course preferable far as survivability goes).


So while I agree that Druids are great, I think that using all their tools Wizard does outperform them on a few significant enough points that it's overall the better class for soloing. However, as I noted at few points, I might actually be inclined to agree that for a small party, Druid is even more important to have: going solo enhances a Druid less than a Wizard.

Deathtongue
2020-05-10, 02:58 PM
I still think that Bard is the best solo class, though that might be because I overrate the town and exploration-phases of the game.

As far as wizard v. druid goes, though:

1) Wizards are really damn squishy. I played a Bladesinger in Storm King's Thunder from level 2 to level 10 -- and that adventure drops some serious swag like Bracers of Armor. I was still taken out by criticals or just two frost giants rolling a frickin' 18 and 19 on their ranged attack. Or just not being able to put up a Bladesong in time. You sometimes roll bad on initiative. I've played many other wizards since then and I've always been super-tempted to grab a level of cleric or Hexblade Warlock just to patch up my defenses. And this was me playing a Bladesinger, one of the best defensive builds in the game.

Now, as the game goes on the game gives you more and more ways to patch up this hole. Greater Invis and/or Fly screws over so many monsters, it's kind of hard to believe. But it is a huge weakness and shouldn't be overlooked.

2) Around level 13 or so, wizards get a ton of tools that just let them bypass the need to adventure at all. Especially if you're playing with the earlier hardcovers and/or Tales from the Yawning Portal which drop a king's ransom in gold. In the world of theoretical OP, who gives a damn about unlimited Wildshape when you have Planar Binding and Simulacrum and True Polymorph and you can just order your minions to adventure for you? Now, higher-level druids certainly shouldn't feel small in the pants, unlimited Wildshape or no. They still get Planar Binding and it's my feeling that Conjure Fey is the strongest of the summoning line. And Conjure Animals/Woodland Beings will easily get you through the most difficult parts of the game, especially if you're a Shepherd.

3) It's my experience that someone in the party absolutely needs a good Arcana and History check. The other checks, including Perception (the best skill to have), you can get by without but Arcana and History are the 'get this adventure started/continue to get leads on the adventure/decipher important plot points' checks. Bards, some Rogues, Knowledge Clerics, and Wizards have a quest-breaking advantage here. Not that it's impossible for a druid to get a good Arcana and History check, but it is something they need to make arrangements for if they're serious about soloing.

So in my opinion? While I think the strongest two-person party would be a Bladesinger/Chronurgist wizard and a Shepherd/Moon/Land druid, it's hard to say which one is better for solo. Druid is much better in the level 2-9 range, they're about equal level 10-12, then level 13 the wizard absolutely smokes the druid.

Eldariel
2020-05-11, 04:12 AM
I still think that Bard is the best solo class, though that might be because I overrate the town and exploration-phases of the game.

Bard is indeed good but their lack of cantrips and familiars is what makes me rather pick a Wizard. They just lack an extra pair of eyes, Druid-level Perception or in general sources of vision. They're great socially, of course, but their magic leaves a lot to be desired especially since they can't ritual cast outside their known list or swap spells between town and wilderness, social and hostile. They also need to wait until level 6 to get their minionmancy going, as opposed to the level 5 of other classes, and their defenses are even worse than a Wizard's (no Shield, no Mage Armor so 15 AC). Combat-wise they have bigger chinks in their armor than Druids or Wizards early on and I'm not convinced they are better enough at socializing to make up for it (though there certainly are probably adventures that would suit a solo Bard).


As far as wizard v. druid goes, though:

1) Wizards are really damn squishy. I played a Bladesinger in Storm King's Thunder from level 2 to level 10 -- and that adventure drops some serious swag like Bracers of Armor. I was still taken out by criticals or just two frost giants rolling a frickin' 18 and 19 on their ranged attack. Or just not being able to put up a Bladesong in time. You sometimes roll bad on initiative. I've played many other wizards since then and I've always been super-tempted to grab a level of cleric or Hexblade Warlock just to patch up my defenses. And this was me playing a Bladesinger, one of the best defensive builds in the game.

Now, as the game goes on the game gives you more and more ways to patch up this hole. Greater Invis and/or Fly screws over so many monsters, it's kind of hard to believe. But it is a huge weakness and shouldn't be overlooked.

While it's fair that Wizard defenses aren't all that, it's worth noting that if Frost Giants are rolling 18s and 19s or enemies rolling criticals in general for their attack, it doesn't matter whether you have armor or not, you'll be hit anyways. Indeed, armor in general is kinda minor buff; a Cleric or even a Fighter would've experienced the same treatment, and certainly a Wizard with a dip. The dip actually does quite little to advance your survivability, especially if you're already a Bladesinger (AC is only so good). Class differences in HP are quite minor past the first few levels; one-two small hits at best. What does matter is your Con, effect-based extra survivability and so on; survivability features, that is.

E.g. Abjurer has every bit as much HP as Fighters and their abjuration-based defenses recharging the Ward essentially give them a slightly different Second Wind over time. I personally prefer maximizing my chances of going first and disabling as many opponents as possible to reduce the incoming damage though, but of course that doesn't always work. Which is why you outsource the rudimentary taking of hits to minions ASAP (generally level 5).

Fact is, if enemy is rolling attacks at you (especially something like a lucky Giant or two), it doesn't matter what class you are: you are going to take hits and you are going to hurt.


2) Around level 13 or so, wizards get a ton of tools that just let them bypass the need to adventure at all. Especially if you're playing with the earlier hardcovers and/or Tales from the Yawning Portal which drop a king's ransom in gold. In the world of theoretical OP, who gives a damn about unlimited Wildshape when you have Planar Binding and Simulacrum and True Polymorph and you can just order your minions to adventure for you? Now, higher-level druids certainly shouldn't feel small in the pants, unlimited Wildshape or no. They still get Planar Binding and it's my feeling that Conjure Fey is the strongest of the summoning line. And Conjure Animals/Woodland Beings will easily get you through the most difficult parts of the game, especially if you're a Shepherd.

3) It's my experience that someone in the party absolutely needs a good Arcana and History check. The other checks, including Perception (the best skill to have), you can get by without but Arcana and History are the 'get this adventure started/continue to get leads on the adventure/decipher important plot points' checks. Bards, some Rogues, Knowledge Clerics, and Wizards have a quest-breaking advantage here. Not that it's impossible for a druid to get a good Arcana and History check, but it is something they need to make arrangements for if they're serious about soloing.

So in my opinion? While I think the strongest two-person party would be a Bladesinger/Chronurgist wizard and a Shepherd/Moon/Land druid, it's hard to say which one is better for solo. Druid is much better in the level 2-9 range, they're about equal level 10-12, then level 13 the wizard absolutely smokes the druid.

I'm not sure Druid is better in the 2-9 range. Level 2, certainly. But level 3 it already depends: Druid has raw combat power, lots of EHP and decent damage in conjunction with good survivability, stealth and such while Wizard has more subterfuge, social power, control, etc. Level 4 I might give to Moon Druid again as they get some real nice forms and Druid level 2 spells are also good; I just think Wizard ones are even better. Plus Druid is perfectly capable of aquatic adventuring at this point while Wizard needs to first learn Alter Self and then, if it comes down to blows, fight without Concentration spells. It's actually hard to account for domains like "Wizard can levitate, Druid can swim" because they're so hugely dependent on the adventure site far as value goes, but it's worth noting them.

Level 5 is probably the hardest to call. Conjure Animals vs. Animate Dead & Hypnotic Pattern (or Fireball). Now, Conjure Animals is stronger than Animate Dead in combat. But Animate Dead is a 24 hour spell with no Concentration. It takes a moment but you can assemble your Mel, Bel, Gil, and Fel fairly quickly if you ever fight Goblins or something and while there's certainly no argument that Conjure Animals brings more power to the table, Wizard being able to field an army while Concentrating is just huge. Also the fact that Zombies and Skeletons are quite humanoid so they should be able to use standard equipment just fine (Zombie in Chain Mail and a Shield is actually a pretty good tank; sure, it totally sucks at hitting things but it's hard to kill and looks pretty ****ed-up, so it should at least give your enemies a pause being well-able to take the point - and Skeletons can use bows with special arrows and what-not, which actually has far-reaching ramifications).

The super-ridiculous Conjure Animals come from level 5 slots, but that's only character level 9. Level 5 Conjure Animals is good but lasting "only" 1 hour means you might have to take encounters without it and only 2-3 third level slots means the Druid is pretty much locked Concentration- and slot-wise to it. It should effortlessly clear anything that can be defeated on this level though. Wizard Counterspell would also be worthwhile to note but chances are they won't learn it on level 5 since they have so few slots per day and they probably want to use the slots they do have for AOE (though of course, if they do run into an enemy caster casting Fireball, they probably wish they could Counterspell it instead of just Absorbing Elements and facetanking). I'd say it's a snap-pick on level 6 though.

One more spell that warrants note on this level is Tiny Hut, which makes wilderness exploration terribly much safer for a Wizard; it makes for quite safe rests especially with your cadaverous entourage shooting things that try to bother you. Fly would also be worth noting but I'm not sure you can spare the spells to learn quite on level 5 yet. Level 6 or purchased scroll, most likely. Anyways, I think levels 5-9 are quite competitive between the two. I definitely don't think Druid wins by landslide; already the fact that Wizard has permanent minions and a safe resting place is a huge advantage IMO. Level 4 spells give Wizard their first decent summon spells in Greater Demon and kinda Minor Elementals (though the 1 hour problem that Conjure Animals has combined with the 10 min casting time is huge), while Druid adds onto their list with Woodland Beings. Wizard also gets more different save AOE CC and Banishment, with both gaining Polymorph as well. This point also sees them both get their second subclass features; Wizardly benefits include some crap for War Wizard and Abjurer, but a rather potent bonus for Diviner and a decent one for Chronurgist. Druids get Magic Fangs, Magic Damage Summons (great!), or some less impressive junk.

Then level 9 has a world of insane spells like Wall of Force, Bigby's Hand, Telekinesis, Wall of Stone, Animate Objects, Synaptic Static, etc. for Wizard while Druid gets their 5th level Conjure Animals, Antilife Shell, Wall of Stone, etc. Both also get Planar Binding (Yay!) and Conjure Elementals and such. Probably both have better summons than Elementals available at this point but it's a nice option to have.


Ultimately, I find level 1 and 2 easy to call, while levels 3-8 are quite hard. I do think Wizard begins pulling ahead once 5th level spells are on the table though and on level 5 the fact that Animate Dead exists is huge (you can just recover the slot with Arcane Recovery so you still have two 3rd level slots to use for combat) vs. Druid having to use slots whenever they wanna produce their minion swarm (but Wildshape does remain competitive on these levels though level 5 specifically is a weak level for it of course). I personally also really like the safety provided by Tiny Hut: while Druid has some good options too (they can dig holes and rest underground or some such, much like a pre-5 Wizard with Mold Earth) it's still universally even safer to use Tiny Hut. There's a lot to these levels but ultimately I do prefer the Wizard end of the deal 5-8 as well; 3-4 might lean towards the Druid though Wizard's level 1 things are still going strong.

Contrast
2020-05-11, 05:08 AM
Glamour Bards get one of the best uses of Bard Inspiration with Mantle of Inspiration, imo. 3-5 of your allies gain 5-8 Temp HP (at most common levels) each, AND can move, meaning you can keep your squishies safe, tanks in important places, and foil enemy flanking attempts.

At lvl 5 (and assuming 16 Charisma), you can provide 24 temp HP to your team 3 times per short rest, Glamour Bards make incredible support casters, even before involving the bards highly versatile spell list. Bump your charisma up, and this force only gets better and better.

I will say, you might have some redundancy with Mantle of Inspiration and Inspiring Leader, since Temp HP doesn't stack. You could save your Mantle for when the first batch of Temp HP is gone. But overall, that small overlap isn't enough for me to dissuade you from a Glamour Bard. They are top-tier support, and their battlefield control is incredible.

I just have to reiterate this. I'm playing a glamour bard at the moment and Mantle of Inspiration has been so influential the party would probably have been happy to have me along even if I never cast a spell (being able to clear friendlies out of the way to lay down AoEs is huge). That said I originally had Inspiring Leader and actually asked my DM to let me swap it out as particularly after level 5 when bardic inspiration was coming back on a short rest, there was a lot of superfluous temporary hit points sloshing around. Its a great feat but I would wait and see if you think you need it before picking it up. I took Res Con instead and have not regretted it.

HiveStriker
2020-05-11, 09:00 AM
@Eldariel and others... Well, I think in fact that Druid/Wizard topic may need to be brewed into its own, unless OP comes in and confirm he's okay with that broadening of his original question.

Care arising I'll let you do the honours. ;)

Rivaler
2020-05-11, 10:16 AM
Since I've been summoned, here I am! :smallbiggrin:

First and foremost, I want to thank you all for the replies! I've been reading all of them, and can confirm that the debate kinda off-roaded into an interesting but slightly offtopic discussion! This is partly my fault for not giving more context to my original question, which I might as well do now.

I play in an Adventurer's League Eberron Campaign. This means that my party may vary between sessions. So far, though, we are only 6 players or so, and they are pretty combat focus, hence the "need" for a support type character that I felt, even though nobody really asked lol. I've been playing a level 1 bard and I admit I found it very interesting, especially being used to playing a bulky barbarian fighter whose sole value is bashing skulls and knocking down doors.

My original question was meant to be a choice between the 3 proposed options, even though any suggestion was well accepted! So far, I'm inclined to play a bard (as most of you suggested) with 3 levels of divine soul sorcerer to get Aid and other usefull spells! I'm still reading and accepting opinions though!

That said, the above discussion might as well belong to it's own topic, since it's more theoretical and based off on a few assumptions that aren't contextual to my case!

Thanks again everyone!

Eldariel
2020-05-11, 10:39 AM
Can you extrapolate on the other character classes and the style they are played in? In this case, support can mean great many things and the answer might not actually be nearly as clear as it would first appear. Though a Bard is never a bad choice, if the party is lacking in magical versatility and problem-solving ability, that speaks for Wizard with their unparalleled versatility in turn. So if the party is basically damage dealers (casters or mundanes), I'd definitely be inclined to go the way of Wizard since it has the broadest base for solving non-physical problems. If there are other casters to provide utility though, I would definitely look into Bard as well, doubly so if you are inclined to play a face type.

Rivaler
2020-05-11, 11:36 AM
Can you extrapolate on the other character classes and the style they are played in? In this case, support can mean great many things and the answer might not actually be nearly as clear as it would first appear. Though a Bard is never a bad choice, if the party is lacking in magical versatility and problem-solving ability, that speaks for Wizard with their unparalleled versatility in turn. So if the party is basically damage dealers (casters or mundanes), I'd definitely be inclined to go the way of Wizard since it has the broadest base for solving non-physical problems. If there are other casters to provide utility though, I would definitely look into Bard as well, doubly so if you are inclined to play a face type.

Indeed, I can share the party setup up to now, even thought that might change every now and then!

So far we are:

A bard (myself)
A warforged fighter
a human fighter (with eldritch blast)
a rogue
an artificer
a warlock (no clue on which patron)


Should also point out that we really all care more about character concept rather than being optimized. Same goes for my character. I don't really care to be super optimized, just enough to make sure that I'm pulling my own weight.

Goals I aim to achieve:

Keep others alive when possible! We have no dedicated healer, so the ability to give THP and throw a healing word every now and then looks good
Have others shine in my stead, so buffing if possible
Allow for creativity! I used minor illusion to generate illusionary cover, and that was fun. My GM is very good at handling that
Some form of battlefield control, either with proper magics or out of the box thinking

Eldariel
2020-05-11, 12:49 PM
Wizard is fairly poor at healing early on so that's one point for Bard. Aside from Abjurer's shield, Polymorph is the first real arcane healing spell. However, Wizard is GREAT at negating enemy damage capability. Bard too, but Wizard to a greater extent. Illusionary fog, real fog, web, grease, etc.

Just the first level list is full of ways to make it hard for enemies to hurt your allies. Actually healing as a Wizard is hard but you could take the Healer feat and perhaps use it in conjunction with Mage Hand.

HiveStriker
2020-05-12, 12:38 PM
Indeed, I can share the party setup up to now, even thought that might change every now and then!

So far we are:

A bard (myself)
A warforged fighter
a human fighter (with eldritch blast)
a rogue
an artificer
a warlock (no clue on which patron)


Should also point out that we really all care more about character concept rather than being optimized. Same goes for my character. I don't really care to be super optimized, just enough to make sure that I'm pulling my own weight.

Goals I aim to achieve:

Keep others alive when possible! We have no dedicated healer, so the ability to give THP and throw a healing word every now and then looks good
Have others shine in my stead, so buffing if possible
Allow for creativity! I used minor illusion to generate illusionary cover, and that was fun. My GM is very good at handling that
Some form of battlefield control, either with proper magics or out of the box thinking

Well, as strange as may be considering how fiercely I put Druid as "better than others" for support or solo, in your particular context, IF Bard is finally not to your taste, I'd say Evoker Wizard would be lovely.

Because your Warlock would probably prefer using his few slots on control spells, you have very little in the blasting department, yet good blasting options are always useful, if not needed!
Being able to have your 2-3 martials aggro creatures then clean (or at least deeply hurt) everything in one go with a Fireball would definitely feel good for you and be good for party.

Note though: I have no clue about Artificer: read UA once quickly, months ago, don't remember much. Maybe he'd naturally fill the blasting part.

Also, while i say that, sticking with Bard is perfectly fine. At "worst", go Lore Bard, and grab Fireball, you'll just need to "open" with it to avoid risk of friendly fire. Bard has a lot of great support spells, plus support and healing features, plus Bardic Inspiration which is a synonym for "help a friend".

Overall your party will lack "spellcasting", and especially "AOE", and even Bard has some nice tricks up in this department (although there are more "debuff"/"control" than damage).
Druid has a big edge in that you can completely change your playstyle from day to day, something even a Wizard simply cannot do. Bard can shore up somewhat that with its features and Expertise though.

Play what you're attracted to. You have a great teamwork mindset anyways, so you'll be great whatever you pick. :)

Quick list of great spells for your objectives: Healing Words (no wizard), Fog Cloud (no Bard), Dissonant Whispers (Bard only), Faerie Fire (no Wizard), Feather Fall (no Druid), Goodberry (Druid only), Grease (Wizard only), Darkness (Wizard only), Enhance Ability (no Wizard), Enlarge/Reduce (Wizard only), Healing Spirit (Druid only), Heat Metal (no Wizard), Invisibility (no Druid except going Land), Lesser Restoration (no Wizard), Magic Mouth (no Druid), Moonbeam (Druid only), Pass Without Trace (Druid only), Phantasmal Force (no Druid), Silence (Bard only), Suggestion (no Druid), Web (Wizard only), Catnap (no Druid), Counterspell (Wizard only), Fly (Wizard only), Haste (Wizard only), Hypnotic Pattern (no Druid), Slow (Wizard only), Sleet Storm (no Bard), Conjure Animals (Druid only), Leomund's Tiny Hut (no Druid), Water Breathing (no Bard), Fireball (Wizard only), Polymorph (no Bard).

That should help you decide which class you want to play (although your initial idea of Bard with three levels of Sorcerer - if I'm not mixing up threads XD- is solid: pick Careful Metamagic to pair with Hypnotic Pattern, pick Extend to go with Aid or Invisibility or Polymorph later).

EDIT: missed the bit about you loving illusions and your DM having no trouble nor fear ruling on it.
In which case, you may want at least a dip into Illusionist Wizard, or going full fledged one.
I have nothing particular to say because that's not my kind of creativity, but it would obviously be perfect for you. ^^