Anti-Heroes: Evil Must Be Obliterated Literally

[Bartmanhomer]

I know there are so many anti-heroes who don't follow the positive and conventional of heroes (superheroes with powers and without powers.) They have this ideology belief that all evil must be destroyed even if the villain surrender with mercy. I could probably name a few, such as Spawn, Deadpool, the Toxic Avenger and other anti-heroes. So what do you think about this topic? Tell me your thoughts about it. :smile:

[Lurkmoar]

Does the Toxic Avenger rate as an anti-hero?

Wait, he did kill a bunch of people in his movies, so yeah.

As for kill 'em all anti-heroes, its fine to watch their murder sprees in moderation, but eventually you start thinking whats the point of society if a single dude can kill hundreds or thousands of people and nobody bats an eye. Western comics have a habit of being Status Quo or 'let's shake up the Status Quo for shock value!'. Sometimes there will be organic change that will stick. So the fact that the Punisher is still around popping caps in criminal noggins makes me scratch my head, even factoring even the sliding time scale.

[False God]

It's one thing to be an anti-hero, a character who does good but isn't a great person and doesn't go about it in the nicest of ways, but they are ultimately trying to be a hero.

Watching an amoral jerk kill another amoral jerk just doesn't interest me at all. Especially when the amoral jerk we're supposed to root for is generally a worse human being than the "bad guy" we're supposed to hate. That kind of "anti-hero" I have zero interest in.

[Dienekes]

My opinion tends to vary based on my mood and the quality of the writer.

First of all, anti-hero is just a protagonist placed in the role of a hero who lacks some of the basic traits viewed by society as heroic. They don't have to be the rabid murderers. Frodo Baggins, for example, is an anti-hero as he was specifically designed to not be the sword swinging warriors of glory that one would expect to have the fate of the world rest upon. And ultimately he fails to defeat evil in the climax of the story. And I freaking love Frodo.


But as to the comic book meaning of an anti-hero being basically a violent jerk who does evil unto evil. I think the archetype can be a bit of fun as a means of exploring and deconstructing the fiction we read. Not a comic book, but the works of Joe Abercrombie do this really well. Logan Ninefingers and Inquisitor Glokta are some of the most interesting characters in popular fantasy. And the book takes the time to explore why they're horrible people and their struggles with what they're doing in life.

If done in an interesting way can make compelling conflicted and interesting characters.

Or they can make some of the trash from the 90s comics where everything is just about bigger gore and guns. When the work doesn't take the time to explore the anti-hero protagonist, and just uses them as an excuse to get more sadism and violence on the page. Well, I grew out of finding that shocking and interesting when I was a teenager.

[Mastikator]

To my mind the only difference between anti-heroes who kill "because evil must be destroyed" and villains who kill "because evil must be destroyed" is how the show/book/movie presents them to the audience. Tell the same story from another perspective and the anti-hero becomes a villain.

Shows about anti-heroes live and die by their supporting characters (The Punisher and Deadpool only work when there are good supporting characters), to me they only have a "happy" ending if the so called anti-hero ends up dying or losing in the end. Breaking bad is a great example of this, Walter White is obviously the bad person yet the audience hates Skyler and Hank because they are the ones that try to stop him. This is also why Dexter had such a terrible ending, he should have died.

[Bartmanhomer]

I forgot about the Punisher. He's an anti-hero who kills criminals as well.

[Lurkmoar]

I thought Walter White in Breaking Bad was a villain protagonist, not an anti hero.

I think even Deadpool and the Punisher would balk at poisoning a child.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Anti-hero is such a broad term, it's hard to say anything really concrete about it.

[HolyDraconus]

Explain how Spawn is an anti-hero again? Didn't he beat down both God and Satan in the comics?

[Tvtyrant]

In my mind anti-heroes are meant to be cathartic. Anyone who has been victimized knows the sense of helplessness that comes along with it, compounded if the authorities fail to administer justice. Societies ban personal revenge to prevent blood feuds, so the rules might be applied in a way that aids the criminal and hurts the victim. Anti-heroes are cathartic, they let the viewer live out the power fantasy of removing societal shackles and retaking agency and personal power.

[Tyndmyr]

I thought Walter White in Breaking Bad was a villain protagonist, not an anti hero.

I think even Deadpool and the Punisher would balk at poisoning a child.

Yeah. And while he is more obviously villainous as the show goes on, even the basic premise of "I'm going to cook a lot of meth, which I know kills people" is...not the most ethically heroic action. He's an interesting villain to watch, but he's not heroic, or even an anti-hero.

[Tvtyrant]

Yeah. And while he is more obviously villainous as the show goes on, even the basic premise of "I'm going to cook a lot of meth, which I know kills people" is...not the most ethically heroic action. He's an interesting villain to watch, but he's not heroic, or even an anti-hero.

Yeah but apply this to cars or brewers and the logic becomes problematic at best. His inter-personal conflicts definitely stick him deep into villain territory, I don't know that making drugs for consensual consumption does.

[NotASpiderSwarm]

Yeah but apply this to cars or brewers and the logic becomes problematic at best. His inter-personal conflicts definitely stick him deep into villain territory, I don't know that making drugs for consensual consumption does.Let's say you live in a city that requires you have a fence around your pool. Fences are expensive. You know that unfenced pools make it much more likely that someone will drown in your pool. Is choosing to save a grand by leaving your pool unfenced, knowing that you are increasing the risk of an innocent person dying, an evil act?

Scale that up to X millions of dollars and the guarantee of Y innocents dying and you have what basically every major corporate officer deals with. Boeing pushing untested updates, car companies balancing probable lawsuit costs vs cost of a recall, pharmaceutical companies taking unprofitable drugs off the market...it's all the same simple "How many dollars is a person's life worth?"

[Tvtyrant]

Let's say you live in a city that requires you have a fence around your pool. Fences are expensive. You know that unfenced pools make it much more likely that someone will drown in your pool. Is choosing to save a grand by leaving your pool unfenced, knowing that you are increasing the risk of an innocent person dying, an evil act?

Scale that up to X millions of dollars and the guarantee of Y innocents dying and you have what basically every major corporate officer deals with. Boeing pushing untested updates, car companies balancing probable lawsuit costs vs cost of a recall, pharmaceutical companies taking unprofitable drugs off the market...it's all the same simple "How many dollars is a person's life worth?"

Are you agreeing that WW is analogous to those or disagreeing?

[Peelee]

Yeah but apply this to cars or brewers and the logic becomes problematic at best. His inter-personal conflicts definitely stick him deep into villain territory, I don't know that making drugs for consensual consumption does.

Did he make drugs for consensual consumption, though? Gale certainly did, but Walter, that guy jumped into bed with the first person he could, every single time without exception. He would claim they're the best, he would talk them up to anyone who would listen, but every single problem Walt had was aklying with the first convenient person he could - Jessie, Krazy 8, Tyco, Saul, Gus, Jack, doesnt matter who they were or what they were like or how obviously bad they were to deal with. Walt didn't give a damn about anyone but himself. Dude was nothing but a pure villain, and it felt weird to watch a show based on a guy I hated throughout nearly the entire series.

[Tvtyrant]

Does he make drugs for consensual consumption, though? Gale did, but Walter, that guy jumped into bed with the first person he could, every single time without exception. He would claim they're the best, he would talk them up to anyone who would listen, but every single problem Walt had was aklying with the first convenient person he could - Jessie, Krazy 8, Tyco, Saul, Gus, Jack, doesnt matter who they were or what they were like or how obviously bad they were to deal with. Walt didn't give a damn about anyone but himself. Dude was nothing but a pure villain, and it felt weird to watch a show based on a guy I hated throughout nearly the entire series.

Yeah he was a horrible person. Especially to Skylar, whose life he almost systematically ruins. I just don't think drugs are particularly villainous, otherwise lots of industries would be really villainous by nature.

[NotASpiderSwarm]

Are you agreeing that WW is analogous to those or disagreeing?I'd agree that cooking meth is analogous to those. (WW has plenty of other issues)

The difference is, I do think that a lot of companies are villainous.

[Peelee]

Yeah he was a horrible person. Especially to Skylar, whose life he almost systematically ruins. I just don't think drugs are particularly villainous, otherwise lots of industries would be really villainous by nature.

Cars, as you alluded to earlier, are designed primarily for transport. Methamphetamine is primarily designed for medicinal uses.

If you built cars in your garage that didn't adhere to any safety guidelines so you could sell them to people who just want to go super fast on a street downtown as often as possible and you don't care about it so long as you make money that you don't need, then yeah, I'd call that villainous without condemning Honda, ya know?

[PopeLinus1]

Does Don Draper qualify as an antihero? He's on a much smaller scale then most, but I think he might qualify.

[Mastikator]

Does Don Draper qualify as an antihero? He's on a much smaller scale then most, but I think he might qualify.

I only watched a couple of episodes, he seems like a jerk with no redeeming qualities, not a villain just a boring but bad person. Like Dr House if House never helped anyone or did anything good.

Dr House is more like an anti-hero, a total jerk, good at medicine but he thinks being smart about medicine makes him smart about everything, it like a Dunning-Kreuger case designed to fool the audience. Come to think of it I did not feel sympathy for him when he went to jail and screwed up his life, it felt more like justice comeuppance.

[Lurkmoar]

Dr House is more like an anti-hero, a total jerk, good at medicine but he thinks being smart about medicine makes him smart about everything, it like a Dunning-Kreuger case designed to fool the audience. Come to think of it I did not feel sympathy for him when he went to jail and screwed up his life, it felt more like justice comeuppance.

Well, he did drive his car into his ex's house while she and her current boyfriends family were having dinner. That's tough to spin as justified or smart.

[Dienekes]

Does Don Draper qualify as an antihero? He's on a much smaller scale then most, but I think he might qualify.

By the literary definition: Yes. He is a main character that lacks the culturally considered traits of a hero. That’s all it takes. He does do some good for a few people every time and again to make the viewer not despise him. But at his core he is a selfish, arrogant, coward, liar, bloated on his own perceived genius who constantly self-sabotages his underlying desires.

By the common use: I’d say no. He doesn’t really have a perceived heroic goal or task, which separates characters like House or even the Punisher from your common villain protagonist.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Linking to Overly Sarcastic Productions, because I am very predictable. Their analysis of the antihero trope is pretty thorough.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpABx1NOIX0