What should I use for giant murder hornets and why do insects have a 0 Int?

[eyebreaker7]

1) I see a Giant Bee and a Giant Wasp in the Monster Manual but what should I use for info for Giant Murder Hornets?
2) Why do all insects have a zero Intelligence?
3) Putting questions 1 & 2 together, I'm looking for something beefy and with some Intelligence to use as mounts or as item wielding insects like the Killer Bees in the original pic from MTG Legends set.

They are going to scale up like the Formians do so I was kinda thinking maybe use their stats with some adjustments? But how do you go about changing stats and such to make it work without going overboard? I do plan to get a LITTLE crazy with them so, again, they need some Int.
One example would be shooting Searing Light out of their eyes and not having the dominate abilities.
Another thought would be to give them adjustments like a familiar, animal companion or a paladin mount depending on their level in the hierarchy? Is that to much? Maybe make them Druid-like but instead of them getting an animal companion they add the bonuses to themselves?
Another thing I just noticed about insects is that they don't even have an alignment entry. Formians are LN but they also have an Intelligence so I'm guessing you need an Intelligence in order to have an alignment?
One of the Murder Hornets would be a Paladin mount regardless. There would also be other mounts and a bunch or hornets with hands to use items.
Looking for some help here. Never did a conversion.

Side note: The Hornets would NOT be centaur like as the Formians are.
Thow some ideas at me :)

[Eladrinblade]

Spider eaters, in the monster manual. Vermin have 0 int because insects are significantly dumber than animals and animals all have 1 or 2 int. An insect can't learn or reason. You don't need a giant version of these particular bees when you already have giant bees and giant wasps; just pick one of those and pretend its the even bigger version of murder hornets.

[Biggus]

1) I see a Giant Bee and a Giant Wasp in the Monster Manual but what should I use for info for Giant Murder Hornets?

Hornets are a subgroup of wasps, so I'd say add some HD to the giant wasp.



2) Why do all insects have a zero Intelligence?


Have you ever watched a fly repeatedly fly into the glass of an open window?

[eyebreaker7]

Have you ever watched a fly repeatedly fly into the glass of an open window?
Lol. Good point but I've seen drunk people do just that but to a glass door :smallcool:

[dantiesilva]

Phase Wasp in MM2 has Int 2 and the ability to cast magic missile, but they are tiny size....

[Elves]

Use a giant wasp but add 2 pincers as primary weapons and give them a special decapitate attack. Advance to 9 HD (huge) if that fits your CR range.

[Gavinfoxx]

What was that fan article that said the vermin type was remnants of ancient mindless biological primordial battle platforms more than actual animals, like normal bugs?

[Mike Miller]

Use the stats of the tarrasque with fluff of an insect. That oughta do it.

[Telonius]

If you want an intelligent version, Abeil (from MM2) are a race of bee-people.

[Aharon]

What was that fan article that said the vermin type was remnants of ancient mindless biological primordial battle platforms more than actual animals, like normal bugs?

That would be the Tome by Frank and K: https://code.google.com/archive/p/awesometome/downloads

Excerpt:

Vermin come from the before time. The time when metals were not made and words were not written down. It’s
quite a feat of construction talent and a testimony to the power and ingenuity of these ancient flesh crafters that
these devices are still running, still attempting to fulfill their programming to this day. The answer is not known
in the days that D&D is normally set. They are a product of a bygone age and their origin is a mystery to all but
the Aboleth and the memory fish are being extremely quiet on this subject. And yet, their conspicuous silence is
probably more telling than anything they could possibly say. The Vermin were constructed during the days when
aberrations ruled the world, and they were quite obviously designed to fight against aberrations.

[ShurikVch]

How about the Giant Wasp (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giantWasp.htm)?
It's rideable, because there is Lizardfolk, Dark Talon Wasp Rider (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/mm4_gallery/98695.jpg) (Monster Manual IV)

[Thurbane]

If you are looking for wasp/hornet-like creatures with an Int score and of a size to be used as mounts:

Howler Wasp {advanced} (MM4) or Spider Eater (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/spiderEater.htm) (MM1)

[Blackhawk748]

You could slap a template that changes their type from Vermin which should give them Int

[daremetoidareyo]

Bonespear

Fiend folio I think

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?478813-Vermin-Handbook-A-list-of-all-vermin-in-3-5&highlight=vermin+desk+reference+handbook

[Blue Jay]

An insect can't learn or reason.

As a practicing entomologist who has published a number of papers on insect and spider behavior, I can tell you that this is patently false.

-----

To the OP's question, I want to echo the suggestion that you just use the Giant Wasp. I don't think it needs to be any more complex than that.

Monster Manual II has the Advespa, which is basically a wasp-like devil (4 HD, CR 3). It has Int 8, which may be more intelligent than you're looking for, but it's basically just a wasp with a devil chassis and a couple assorted SLAs.

[Maat Mons]

I'd do two different races. One is an Int-1 or 2 Magical Beast similar to the Giant Bee or Giant Wasp. The other is a 1-HD Monstrous Humanoid similar to a winged version of the (non-psionic) Thri Kreen. The bee people have domesticated even bigger bees that they use as mounts.

[Gavinfoxx]

As a practicing entomologist who has published a number of papers on insect and spider behavior, I can tell you that this is patently false.

Thats why I always thought that NORMAL bugs should have the Animal type. See that quote by the Frank and K tome that Aharon did a little bit earlier.


That would be the Tome by Frank and K: https://code.google.com/archive/p/awesometome/downloads


The bit there...

[Aotrs Commander]

If you want to make them different from giant wasps, pinch the Advanced template from Pathfinder (which is basically as simpe as +2 natural armour, +4 to all stats unless "-") and job's a goog 'un.

[Fizban]

2) Why do all insects have a zero Intelligence?
Because most insects have little or no memory/problem solving/etc, and even those that we might know have some now we probably didn't back when the books were written? And even if we did, would most people believe that even if you did shove the scientific proof down their faces?

DnD giant bugs are movie monsters. They're mindless because it's scarier if they have no minds to reason with or compel magically, and it makes them stand out when compared to animals. Even if you can run a lab test that says a centipede or ant or hornet is actually pretty smart, people do not interact with them in ways that demonstrate this. You could rebuild the animal and vermin types to reflect a greater range of intelligences and remove the arbitrary bug/not-bug line, but that's a lot of work to fix monsters people don't even like using for reasons they don't care about.

(Says the guy who specifically nerfed "Brown Bears" because they're not actually grizzly bears [still haven't got around to fixing seals and sea lions], and has pages of notes on why horses and elephants and basically no animals should be carrying things on their backs due to spine shapes and thus druids need to have a spell for that).

3) Putting questions 1 & 2 together, I'm looking for something beefy and with some Intelligence to use as mounts or as item wielding insects like the Killer Bees in the original pic from MTG Legends set.
Slap a Celestial/Fiendish template on anything and it suddenly has Int 3.

But how do you go about changing stats and such to make it work without going overboard?
The same way you do anything else: by checking your work and not expecting some formula to do the job for you. Get their stats however it is you want them, then compare to monsters that you think are well written and have used against your players, and that will tell you what CR they should be. Do not try to char-op your monsters within some sort of "budget," the only thing that matters is the result. Use templates or basic advancement rules or whatever, and then adjust as required regardless of what those "rules" said. You're the DM, not a slave to the books, the books specifically say you're the one in charge and responsible.

One example would be shooting Searing Light out of their eyes and not having the dominate abilities.
Assign whatever magic you want.

Another thought would be to give them adjustments like a familiar, animal companion or a paladin mount depending on their level in the hierarchy? Is that to much? Maybe make them Druid-like but instead of them getting an animal companion they add the bonuses to themselves?
Those tables have nothing to do with monster creation and should not be involved, but yes, heirarchal monsters will usually have higher natural armor and other stats on the more powerful monsters, because they're more powerful. The generic monster advancement table only gives bonuses when something goes up a size category, but it's for advancing a specific type of monster- if you want to take the same inspiration and make different changes to create multiple monsters, you can do that.

Another thing I just noticed about insects is that they don't even have an alignment entry. Formians are LN but they also have an Intelligence so I'm guessing you need an Intelligence in order to have an alignment?
Partially correct. Some mindless creatures, such as skeletons and zombies, have particular alignments, make of that what you will. But animals and vermin don't care, which makes them neutral, since there is no "unaligned" option. The MM entries seem to have left alignment off except when there's a table of every size category (for the centipedes and such).

One of the Murder Hornets would be a Paladin mount regardless. There would also be other mounts and a bunch or hornets with hands to use items.
Looking for some help here. Never did a conversion.
The DMG rules for non-standard Paladin Mounts say that a flying mount should have a CR of 4 or more less than the Paladin's level. This delays mount benefits, as shown on the accompanying table (page 205). A normal Giant Wasp is CR 3, so it would be appropriate for a 7th level Paladin. The lack of intelligence is a problem though, so slap Celestial on there, making it CR 4 and 8th level instead. If you want to use your more customized monsters, then once you have their CR and can compare them to the other possible mounts, you'll know where to put them.

Note that normally Paladins aren't supposed to use poison, and Paladins who ride Ashworms from Sandstorm have to clip their poison sacks. You can choose to ignore this if you wish, because you are the DM.

[Maat Mons]

I found the thing I was thinking of! (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?561256-Sectan-Races-PEACH)

[Endarire]

You could just homebrew something to suit your needs, like taking the stats of a Giant Owl or Dire Bat and calling it a Killer Bee.