PDA

View Full Version : Pathfinder Summoner from Another Mother: An Akashic Magic Summoning Class [PEACH Please]



RecordedChaos
2020-05-05, 11:44 PM
The Binder

Some are born with power, some gain power through study and careful application of intellect, and some gain power through force of will. Then there are those who are willing to pay for power, to gain what they want by bargaining with beings great and terrible from realms beyond the mortal plane.

https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/1aceb6bd-e87b-4674-b2fa-2b59057bf6a4/d8np3il-574301a9-e51a-4167-852b-42e43ad412a1.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJ IUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOiIsImlzcyI6InVybjph cHA6Iiwib2JqIjpbW3sicGF0aCI6IlwvZlwvMWFjZWI2YmQtZT g3Yi00Njc0LWIyZmEtMmI1OTA1N2JmNmE0XC9kOG5wM2lsLTU3 NDMwMWE5LWU1MWEtNDE2Ny04NTJiLTQyZTQzYWQ0MTJhMS5qcG cifV1dLCJhdWQiOlsidXJuOnNlcnZpY2U6ZmlsZS5kb3dubG9h ZCJdfQ.2bXkUw7AqimQQ5hBLFQy3Sc7JaXNbVAf1gZZVKWwYhc

Dark Summon by xxxsof, more of their AMAZING art found here (https://www.deviantart.com/xxxsof/gallery)
Hiya folks! First time Posting Homebrew here, and I've been working on this project for a while now and the its finally ready for some feedback. It's a hybrid of the pathfinder summoner and the old school 3.5e warlock with some revamps, and it uses the Akashic Magic system from Dreamscarred Press. Those of you who love WoW might see some similarities to old style warlock in here, and that is completely intentional.

The class is a summoner type that binds itself to a plane of existence for greater power and the ability to call upon helpful spirits of that plane for aid. Rough name currently is Binder. Here's a link to the googledoc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YsoNne0xPa50HyreJ_JwJ6ot9lp55u4aGI5CAenK0Y0/edit?usp=sharing
(I'm using a link instead of posting it in-thread as right now I am 45 pages into content, and that would just be waaaaay to big to place in here :smalleek:)

I'm looking for feedback and possibly playtesting if possible so please help!

(linked spell and veil content used is from other sites that have full OGL and OGC declared, not sure if its required for me to copy it here? :smallconfused: heres links to the legal disclaimers anyway)
http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/legal:start
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/legal/

KatsOfLoathing
2020-05-06, 04:01 PM
Ooh, this seems neat. I've read the main and hexes docs, and am working my way through the Pact documents. There's a lot of material to parse for sure. My opening thoughts:

For an akashic class, this class feels... pretty stuffed with features, and many of its abilities seem like they're borrowed from other classes. It has an equivalent to the Nexus' convergences and planar detonation, the Zodiac's essence and bind progressions, the Daevic's veils progression, Eldritch Insight from the Vizier for some reason (feels kind of out-of-place on a Cha-dominant class), it goes on. Then it has three I-can't-believe-they're-not-feats, the summoned companions, a new veil type, hexes... it's a lot. Akashic classes tend to be lean on features in favor of focusing on veilweaving, and many of them have multiple levels where you gain nothing but a new bind slot. This class gains a new feature at every level except 8th, 11th, and 14th. It just feels overstuffed with things in my eyes.

Focusing on the hexes to start: I don't think the class needs them, honestly. It has enough at-will powers between veils, summons, and planar blasts to sustain it over an average day. If you're worried about losing some of the flavor of the pacts by dropping hexes, maybe incorporate some of the hex abilities into the convergences?

Another thing the class doesn't need: copping the Daevic's "share essence across all your archetype veils" thing. That mechanic is intended to balance against the Daevic's poor essence progression, but the Binder gets the best essence progression in the game, capping out at 30 with the other "full-caster veilweavers" (Vizier, Radiant, Zodiac). You can amp your pact veils up to the full and still have more than enough to spend on other veils, blasting, and summoning.

From what I've read of the pacts, they seem pretty sweet so far. They're full of strong flavor and interesting mechanics, and I can appreciate the amount of work you've put into the summoned spirits and making all of them feel unique. I have no idea whatsoever how balanced they are against each other, but that's what playtesting is for.

You haven't specified a veil list yet, which determines a large chunk of this class's power. Though the Nexus list is probably the most ideal if you don't feel like designing your own, I'd favor a list keyed mostly towards non-combat and utility powers to supplement your strong class features (like the Guru or Zodiac).

Overall Review: I think this class has a lot of potential and you've clearly given it a lot of love. But right now it feels really overtuned compared to the other akashic classes. Lots of class features (especially the at-will powers), excellent veil and essence progressions, powerful and versatile companions... most akashic classes have to build for specific functions every day and can easily hit situations they can't overcome with their current loadout. The Binder seems like it could breeze through most challenges just by the sheer weight of its versatility, maybe without even touching its veils.

RecordedChaos
2020-05-06, 05:03 PM
For an akashic class, this class feels... pretty stuffed with features, and many of its abilities seem like they're borrowed from other classes.
I definitely agree that the class could use some slimming down and possibly shunting some of those abilities into possible feats for the binder to take. Any ideas on what to lose?


It has an equivalent to the Nexus' convergences and planar detonation, the Zodiac's essence and bind progressions, the Daevic's veils progression, Eldritch Insight from the Vizier for some reason (feels kind of out-of-place on a Cha-dominant class), it goes on.

Yeah, originally it was supposed to be a hybrid of the Zodiac and Nexus class that was more focused on a few summons based around a theme. I felt like the nexus was to light on powers gained from the plane they connected to.



Then it has three I-can't-believe-they're-not-feats...

They actually are based off feats lol. It's Pawn's Sacrifice, Queen's Knight, and King's Castle


Focusing on the hexes to start: I don't think the class needs them, honestly. It has enough at-will powers between veils, summons, and planar blasts to sustain it over an average day. If you're worried about losing some of the flavor of the pacts by dropping hexes, maybe incorporate some of the hex abilities into the convergences?

I'm actually thinking about dropping the convergences and just giving them hexes and power boosts to the companions at those levels, thoughts? I want to keep the players as having a choice at their powers gained.


Another thing the class doesn't need: copping the Daevic's "share essence across all your archetype veils" thing. That mechanic is intended to balance against the Daevic's poor essence progression, but the Binder gets the best essence progression in the game, capping out at 30 with the other "full-caster veilweavers" (Vizier, Radiant, Zodiac). You can amp your pact veils up to the full and still have more than enough to spend on other veils, blasting, and summoning.

The reason for the daevic style pact investment is the pacts themselves. As you read through the pacts you can see that investing essence in the pact has tangible benefits for the binder for empowering their spirits and their pacts planar powers. It also fits thematically: It’s literally them devoting their own soul energy into that plane, so they are sacrificing it for power, even temporarily.

The other reason is the essence burn needed to summon spirits. The spirits require roughly 1/2-3/4+ the binders essence at any given level just to keep around, not mentioning anything else they want to stick power into. Given how heavily based around taking essence burn this class is it's designed to force them to make resource choices. They have to pick between using their pact and spirits at their highest potential, using hexes , using non-pact veils that don't gain the pacts benefits, or just other class features.

I am thinking of lowering their essence down to probably 20-25 range.


From what I've read of the pacts, they seem pretty sweet so far. They're full of strong flavor and interesting mechanics, and I can appreciate the amount of work you've put into the summoned spirits and making all of them feel unique. I have no idea whatsoever how balanced they are against each other, but that's what playtesting is for.

Thanks! I really like how they turned out.


You haven't specified a veil list yet, which determines a large chunk of this class's power. Though the Nexus list is probably the most ideal if you don't feel like designing your own, I'd favor a list keyed mostly towards non-combat and utility powers to supplement your strong class features (like the Guru or Zodiac).

Each pact has set pact veils and then they can grab a number of other veils of certain types that they want outside the pact. It gives a list in each pact what they can get. The point is they will have limited access outside the pact, as that is where most of their power is.


Overall Review: I think this class has a lot of potential and you've clearly given it a lot of love. But right now it feels really overtuned compared to the other akashic classes. Lots of class features (especially the at-will powers), excellent veil and essence progressions, powerful and versatile companions... most akashic classes have to build for specific functions every day and can easily hit situations they can't overcome with their current loadout. The Binder seems like it could breeze through most challenges just by the sheer weight of its versatility, maybe without even touching its veils.

Thanks! I really appreciate the insight and the time you took to give it a look. I already implemented a few of your suggestions. Please continue to tell me what you think!

KatsOfLoathing
2020-05-06, 07:31 PM
I definitely agree that the class could use some slimming down and possibly shunting some of those abilities into possible feats for the binder to take. Any ideas on what to lose?

One major change I might suggest is dropping it down to a d6/poor BAB class. I feel like it has more in common with the "full-caster" veilweavers (Vizier and Radiant) than the hybrid, medium-BAB ones (Guru, Eclipse, Nexus), in terms of both thematics and gameplay role. Not to mention that at medium BAB, its many class features risk overshadowing the Nexus' role as the gish-y blaster veilweaver. I know some of the pacts want you in a gish role (Draconic especially), but BAB is kind of a meaningless concept for veilweavers anyway, and I've seen perfectly competent melee Vizier builds.

It might also be worth dropping those feat-analog abilities. I'll get to that in a second.


Yeah, originally it was supposed to be a hybrid of the Zodiac and Nexus class that was more focused on a few summons based around a theme. I felt like the nexus was to light on powers gained from the plane they connected to.

The Nexus has veils and veil-set feats to back up its planar fluff, though I do agree with you to a degree.


They actually are based off feats lol. It's Pawn's Sacrifice, Queen's Knight, and King's Castle

That's what I meant in my original quote, haha. The joke might've not quite gotten across. But speaking of these... I'm not sure they're needed parts of the class's progression. Those feats were designed for the Zodiac, but that class actually has to spend feats to acquire them. Why not make it the same for the Binder?


I'm actually thinking about dropping the convergences and just giving them hexes and power boosts to the companions at those levels, thoughts? I want to keep the players as having a choice at their powers gained.

Whatever you decide on, I'd keep it as one or the other. Both together makes for too much clutter of features IMO. Akashic classes occupy a unique niche in 3PP material in how clean and sleek they are.


The reason for the daevic style pact investment is the pacts themselves. As you read through the pacts you can see that investing essence in the pact has tangible benefits for the binder for empowering their spirits and their pacts planar powers. It also fits thematically: It’s literally them devoting their own soul energy into that plane, so they are sacrificing it for power, even temporarily.

The other reason is the essence burn needed to summon spirits. The spirits require roughly 1/2-3/4+ the binders essence at any given level just to keep around, not mentioning anything else they want to stick power into. Given how heavily based around taking essence burn this class is it's designed to force them to make resource choices. They have to pick between using their pact and spirits at their highest potential, using hexes , using non-pact veils that don't gain the pacts benefits, or just other class features.

I am thinking of lowering their essence down to probably 20-25 range.

I think the background math there fails to take into account that almost all Akashic feats (of which you'll definitely be taking at least a few), plus many options and racial traits, grant additional dots of essence. I could easily work up a few different builds for a 12th-level Binder that can have all three spirits on the field, plus plenty of essence leftover for veils and planar blasts. And the hexes don't rely on essence at all anyway.

I know the design principles there aren't the same, but compare to the Zodiac, who generally has one or two beefy champions on the field at a time, but has to choose between augmenting them or boosting their own veils and gear. The Binder's spirits are pretty powerful even before you start pumping essence into them.


Each pact has set pact veils and then they can grab a number of other veils of certain types that they want outside the pact. It gives a list in each pact what they can get. The point is they will have limited access outside the pact, as that is where most of their power is.

I'm a little confused by what this is meant to suggest. Is your entire veil list determined by your pact, or just your pact veils (like the Daevic and their passion veils)? If it's the former, that's a staggeringly short list of shape-able veils, even in comparison to classes with relatively short lists like the Radiant and Lunar Zodiac. Depending on your choices, you might not even get the right combination to fill all your bind slots.

RecordedChaos
2020-05-06, 07:46 PM
One major change I might suggest is dropping it down to a d6/poor BAB class. I feel like it has more in common with the "full-caster" veilweavers (Vizier and Radiant) than the hybrid, medium-BAB ones (Guru, Eclipse, Nexus), in terms of both thematics and gameplay role. Not to mention that at medium BAB, its many class features risk overshadowing the Nexus' role as the gish-y blaster veilweaver. I know some of the pacts want you in a gish role (Draconic especially), but BAB is kind of a meaningless concept for veilweavers anyway, and I've seen perfectly competent melee Vizier builds.

I’d agree on the BaB, maybe not on the HP, that would need to be playtested given its summoner Nature and minimal veil access


That's what I meant in my original quote, haha. The joke might've not quite gotten across. But speaking of these... I'm not sure they're needed parts of the class's progression. Those feats were designed for the Zodiac, but that class actually has to spend feats to acquire them. Why not make it the same for the Binder?

That was actually my first thought to trimming the fat actually


I think the background math there fails to take into account that almost all Akashic feats (of which you'll definitely be taking at least a few), plus many options and racial traits, grant additional dots of essence. I could easily work up a few different builds for a 12th-level Binder that can have all three spirits on the field, plus plenty of essence leftover for veils and planar blasts. And the hexes don't rely on essence at all anyway.

Yeah, thinking dropping them to 20-25 will probably be the way to go


I know the design principles there aren't the same, but compare to the Zodiac, who generally has one or two beefy champions on the field at a time, but has to choose between augmenting them or boosting their own veils and gear. The Binder's spirits are pretty powerful even before you start pumping essence into them.

I’m actually more worried about Them being underpowered, especially vs. what you see in the Zodiacs champions given that the majority of them get full class level progression, where as these spirits get maybe a simple class template at a much lower power setting.




I'm a little confused by what this is meant to suggest. Is your entire veil list determined by your pact, or just your pact veils (like the Daevic and their passion veils)? If it's the former, that's a staggeringly short list of shape-able veils, even in comparison to classes with relatively short lists like the Radiant and Lunar Zodiac. Depending on your choices, you might not even get the right combination to fill all your bind slots.

Ah, let me see if I can’t clear this up. The veils on their list are MOSTLY determined by their pact. If you read the veil list for each pact, you’ll find that it states what veils are part of their pact, and then it states they gain access to a certain number of veils of a type listed equal to their charisma modifier. The pact itself has between 12-18 or so veils (except Draconic, but they also have a much wider non-pact option list and are more gishy) and then it states what veils outside the pact you can grab. Also, since you have fewer bind slots than most other veilweaving classes and you choose which binds you actually have access to, I’m hoping that will limit the empty slot problem

KatsOfLoathing
2020-05-06, 09:02 PM
I’d agree on the BaB, maybe not on the HP, that would need to be playtested given its summoner Nature and minimal veil access

The two things do tend to go together, but I guess it's not a hard-and-fast rule. Given almost all Binders will probably be on the backline shooting laser beams and summoning spirits to fight for them, I don't think being squishy is a huge drawback. The Vizier does fine with it, and their defenses are pretty comparable to the Binder's in most respects.


That was actually my first thought to trimming the fat actually

I think it'd be a good place to start, yeah.


I’m actually more worried about Them being underpowered, especially vs. what you see in the Zodiacs champions given that the majority of them get full class level progression, where as these spirits get maybe a simple class template at a much lower power setting.

It can be a little hard to compare, since summoning is the Zodiac's main Thing, but only one of the Things that the Binder does (in addition to veils, hexes, and blasting), but I'll try.

Overall, the Zodiac's constellations are cheaper and more reliable than the Binder's spirits, but most of them are just beat-sticks deployed in variable circumstances, with minimal utility or weird magic powers to supplement their face-smashing. (Exceptions exist in the Druid and Water Bearer constellations, and the Quiet Lands cosmology is just a whole different animal.)

The Binder's spirits, by comparison, are more expensive, but they have lots of nice combat abilities, actual skill use, and a laundy-list of spells, SLAs, and SU powers to justify their price. And they become even more powerful when essence is invested in them, which is technically true for constellations too but can vary a lot in practice.


Ah, let me see if I can’t clear this up. The veils on their list are MOSTLY determined by their pact. If you read the veil list for each pact, you’ll find that it states what veils are part of their pact, and then it states they gain access to a certain number of veils of a type listed equal to their charisma modifier. The pact itself has between 12-18 or so veils (except Draconic, but they also have a much wider non-pact option list and are more gishy) and then it states what veils outside the pact you can grab. Also, since you have fewer bind slots than most other veilweaving classes and you choose which binds you actually have access to, I’m hoping that will limit the empty slot problem

I'm... not sure how I feel about this. It kind of flies against the normal versatility-is-the-game mission statement of the other veilweaving classes, locking you into a tight set of veils that will probably heavily define your playstyle, and that makes the individual pacts even harder to rate against each other. Plus, and I know this would be a bizarre choice, but if you have a low Cha modifier, do you just get no veils outside of pact veils? It's just a weird system in my book. I don't think it would break anything to make a short-list of veils any Binder can access (think Lunar Zodiac length, maybe even go shorter), and have the pact veils just make up the difference.

RecordedChaos
2020-05-06, 09:33 PM
The two things do tend to go together, but I guess it's not a hard-and-fast rule. Given almost all Binders will probably be on the backline shooting laser beams and summoning spirits to fight for them, I don't think being squishy is a huge drawback. The Vizier does fine with it, and their defenses are pretty comparable to the Binder's in most respects.

I probably will bring them down to 1/2 BaB and d6 HD



The Binder's spirits, by comparison, are more expensive, but they have lots of nice combat abilities, actual skill use, and a laundy-list of spells, SLAs, and SU powers to justify their price. And they become even more powerful when essence is invested in them, which is technically true for constellations too but can vary a lot in practice.

I don’t know about cheaper, the Zodiac’s champions are usually between 4-10 for the good ones, definitely needs playtesting




I'm... not sure how I feel about this. It kind of flies against the normal versatility-is-the-game mission statement of the other veilweaving classes, locking you into a tight set of veils that will probably heavily define your playstyle, and that makes the individual pacts even harder to rate against each other. Plus, and I know this would be a bizarre choice, but if you have a low Cha modifier, do you just get no veils outside of pact veils? It's just a weird system in my book. I don't think it would break anything to make a short-list of veils any Binder can access (think Lunar Zodiac length, maybe even go shorter), and have the pact veils just make up the difference.

The idea is the pact is their main source of power, so most of their veils would come from there. I might give them a short list outside the pact for all binders or a mandatory 5 or so extra veils of their choice of the types allowed by the pact?