Movies Star Wars: The Skywalker Saga Movie Review [Archive]

Anonymouswizard

2020-05-06, 07:56 AM

We can all have our own opinions on Rian Johnson and The Last Jedi, but I don't think there's much room for doubt about who screwed the franchise most.

I mean, I know that people love to complain about the Prequel Trilogy...

I'm just wondering which beloved sci-fi franchise a major corporation is going to pay Abrams to ruin next.

Oh.

Honestly, I don't have that much hate towards Abrams over his ST films (now Star Trek...). The Force Awakens, while note a masterpiece, is exactly what Abrams was supposed to make and what he needed to make: a nostalgia-fest just different enough from A New Hope The Rise of Skywalker was nowhere near great, but I suspect it's essentially the two films we'd have got if Abrams had made the entire trilogy compressed into one just with Palpatine replacing Snoke and a new twist thrown in.

I actually do feel like JJ Abrams had a vague plan for the trilogy, but knew he wasn't going to be making it all so decided to leave it as open-ended as possible, and then had to jury-rig two films worth of plot into one to get to his originally envisioned ending. E9 would have worked a lot better if the search and confrontation plots each had their own films (and would have felt less like a remake at the same time).

Well there's the original trilogy, which made the prequels look bad, and the sequel trilogy, which made the prequels look good.

The End.

I've come to believe that the major problem with the prequel trilogy is that The Phantom Menace is important to the trilogy but rather disconnected from the saga, Attack of the Clones is a bad film that mainly exists to set up the war and forbidden love subplots in the next film, and that Revenge of the Sith is a good film which doesn't actually need AotC to set it up (it clearly gets across the idea of forbidden love in Anakin and Padme's first scene, and honestly 'the republic is at war with a separatist movement' isn't hard to grasp).

I think if The Phantom Menace and Revenge of the Sith had been a duology instead of a trilogy the prequels would have been lumped in 'okay, but not great' instead of being labelled as the worst thing to happen to a franchise. Sure, they still wouldn't have been as good as the original trilogy, and you'd probably have to rewrite Phantom Menace somewhat for better flow between the films (make it more clear that the Trade Federation are on the verge of declaring independence), but even as a kid AotC was the one I didn't like, and I honestly preferred Revenge of the Sith to the Original Trilogy at that age (it's still my favourite, but I appreciate the better flow of the OT).

Rakaydos

2020-05-06, 08:09 AM

Already all the gnashing of the teeth! Goodness!
No one ruined SW. It, as a grand overarching property, was never good in the first place (it merely had good moments and pieces within it). We were having embarrassingly bad Star Wars moments on Holiday specials and Donnie and Marie episodes before ESB even hit theaters. There were 2.5 good movies to begin with (I'm looking at you, teddy-bear cannibals!), some good moments scattered across the rest of the movies (including a mostly-good Rogue One), and some fairly decent tie-in products like books and computer games and finally a good cartoon series now (I'm talking, of course, about Droids :smalltongue:).
The prequels happened when George Lucas had noone to tell him which ideas were geinus and which were stupid. The Sequels happened when the Mouse had no ideas at all, just nostalga.
The Last Jedi's director HAD ideas- poorly implemented, unsupported by the rest of the trilogy- but that alone is enough to set it above the other two for a good number of people.

Fyraltari

2020-05-06, 08:15 AM

Well, except for a lack of Peelee, this thread is already what I expected from the title.

(I'm looking at you, teddy-bear cannibals!),

Anthropophagous teddy-bears, please. They do not eat other teddy-bears.

Palanan

2020-05-06, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard
The Rise of Skywalker was nowhere near great….

Rise of Skywalker just dropped on Disney+, so I’ve been able to watch it without feeling guilty about paying anything.

I’ve watched up to the point where Rey and Ren had their tug-of-war over the troop transport, and now Rey is staring despondently at her hand. I had to quit there.

I saw the movie twice in the theater, and the best I could say was that it was a pile of ridiculous. But after watching the first half-hour on Disney+, I have to revise that from “ridiculous” to “idiotic.”

Many individual scenes are quite good; I love the opening argument between Rey and Poe. But the scenes are strung together into a long, twisty dribble of pitiful. It’s two or three movies crammed into a lunchbox with plot elements hanging out everywhere.

And without going into detail, all the gratuitous pokes and jabs at the previous movie were both jarring and petty. The director’s personality came through all too clearly in those moments, and not to his credit.

Originally Posted by Rakaydos
The Last Jedi's director HAD ideas- poorly implemented, unsupported by the rest of the trilogy- but that alone is enough to set it above the other two for a good number of people.

This indeed.

Peelee

2020-05-06, 09:15 AM

Well, except for a lack of Peelee, this thread is already what I expected from the title.

I feel so loved.:smallsmile:

Anyway, I loved the Saph Star Wars Review, and I don't know how well a sequel will hold up. Obviously I'm going to see it, because Star Wars, and if Saph ever does a Special Edition I'll totally catch that as well.

Dienekes

2020-05-06, 09:25 AM

Oh.

Honestly, I don't have that much hate towards Abrams over his ST films (now Star Trek...). The Force Awakens, while note a masterpiece, is exactly what Abrams was supposed to make and what he needed to make: a nostalgia-fest just different enough from A New Hope The Rise of Skywalker was nowhere near great, but I suspect it's essentially the two films we'd have got if Abrams had made the entire trilogy compressed into one just with Palpatine replacing Snoke and a new twist thrown in.

I actually do feel like JJ Abrams had a vague plan for the trilogy, but knew he wasn't going to be making it all so decided to leave it as open-ended as possible, and then had to jury-rig two films worth of plot into one to get to his originally envisioned ending. E9 would have worked a lot better if the search and confrontation plots each had their own films (and would have felt less like a remake at the same time).

See and I really don't think TFA was what Star Wars needed to have. There's a reason the most popular bits of the franchise right now are Mandalorian and Clone Wars. Things that take some of the style and a bit of the feel of the OT but takes them into new and interesting directions that follow interesting characters.

The idea that "we need to remake A New Hope with the serial numbers filed off" is just the cynical corporate version of one possible way to advance the story.

Now biases up front here. I hate TFA. I left the theater actually angry with it. TLJ may be sloppy. And TRoS is just a disjointed mess of a film. But TFA made me want my money back.

The notion that the only way to advance the story was to show that every main character of the OT had either failed or regressed back to where they were in the first movie just sucked the enjoyment out of it. And the thing is, even if Abrams got his three movies and it did make one continuous arc skipping TLJ. I still would have hated it.

The prequels happened when George Lucas had noone to tell him which ideas were geinus and which were stupid. The Sequels happened when the Mouse had no ideas at all, just nostalga.

Oh I disagree with this. They had plenty of ideas. Of course all of them were financial and none of them had anything to do with developing interesting characters, worlds, and emotional themes.

Anonymouswizard

2020-05-06, 09:55 AM

Rise of Skywalker just dropped on Disney+, so I’ve been able to watch it without feeling guilty about paying anything.

I’ve watched up to the point where Rey and Ren had their tug-of-war over the troop transport, and now Rey is staring despondently at her hand. I had to quit there.

I saw the movie twice in the theater, and the best I could say was that it was a pile of ridiculous. But after watching the first half-hour on Disney+, I have to revise that from “ridiculous” to “idiotic.”

Many individual scenes are quite good; I love the opening argument between Rey and Poe. But the scenes are strung together into a long, twisty dribble of pitiful. It’s two or three movies crammed into a lunchbox with plot elements hanging out everywhere.

And without going into detail, all the gratuitous pokes and jabs at the previous movie were both jarring and petty. The director’s personality came through all too clearly in those moments, and not to his credit.

I'm not going to defend Rise of Skywalker, because my reaction to seeing it in the cinema was 'some good scenes, mostly mediocre, disappointing ending'. But then again, I literally read it as JJ Abrams having to take his Episode 8 and Episode 9 and cram them into one movie while retconning the bits of Last Jedi that didn't fit with the plan, and do it fast (whereas comparatively Duel of the Fates sounds like it was designed to mostly lead on from The Last Jedi). I've got no desire to rewatch it, and it's reduced my interest in rewatching TFA or TLJ.

It's a fitting end to the ST, no real plan at the beginning and rushed to cinemas, so when they got to the final film there was no plan and they had to rush to an ending.

Also, well done on the quote mining, let me just supply the rest of the sentence:

The Rise of Skywalker was nowhere near great, but I suspect it's essentially the two films we'd have got if Abrams had made the entire trilogy compressed into one just with Palpatine replacing Snoke and a new twist thrown in.

So yeah, I agree with you, it's just that I think if 'the search for the wayfinder' and 'the confrontation' had each been their own film without The Last Jedi then we'd have had a solid, somewhere around PT trilogy that wouldn't feel as much like a retread, but when thrust into the directorial seat Abrams had to take his vision for the trilogy and rush towards an ending because he had no time to plan something better.

EDIT: with regards to TFA, but 'it was what Star Wars needed' I mean that many people I know who hadn't interacted with the franchise since RotS went out and saw it, enjoyed it, and brought the Franchise up to Marvel Film levels of hype, which was essentially what Disney needed to justify the rest of the trilogy. Like it or not I'm not sure we'd be getting The Mandalorian or more Clone Wars if TFA hadn't made new Star Wars projects to being a more mainstream thing, I think the last time I'd paid for a new Star Wars thing before it personally was the Clone Wars film, which had personally turned me off.

The Glyphstone

2020-05-06, 10:09 AM

I'm still baffled as to why Disney thought 'three movies by three different directors' was ever a good idea in the first place.

Fyraltari

2020-05-06, 10:31 AM

I'm still baffled as to why Disney thought 'three movies by three different directors' was ever a good idea in the first place.
Because it worked for the MCU. The real issue is that there should have been a plan in place for all three movies so that they would tell a cohesive story.

Peelee

2020-05-06, 10:32 AM

I'm still baffled as to why Disney thought 'three movies by three different directors' was ever a good idea in the first place.

Imean... it worked for the OT.

Lucas, Kershner, Marquand.

Bartmanhomer

2020-05-06, 10:33 AM

Wow, this thread is booming and I haven't post Episode 1 yet. Anyway, I'm going to up the ante: There won't a five-star rating, there will be a 1-10 rating. I'm going to post Episode 1 today.

Palanan

2020-05-06, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard
But then again, I literally read it as JJ Abrams having to take his Episode 8 and Episode 9 and cram them into one movie while retconning the bits of Last Jedi that didn't fit with the plan….

I think that’s a pretty accurate read.

No idea what “quote mining” is, so not sure how to take the rest of your post.

Originally Posted by Peelee
Imean... it worked for the OT.

Lucas, Kershner, Marquand.

Well, Marquand had the director’s credit, but Lucas was always looking over his shoulder and it was Lucas’ vision that was represented on-screen.

Marquand had extremely limited directing experience before he was selected for RotJ, and that was one reason why Lucas approved him—so there wouldn’t be the same conflicts that Lucas had previously dealt with from the much more established Kershner. Marquand had no real creative freedom of his own.

Anonymouswizard

2020-05-06, 12:13 PM

Wow, this thread is booming and I haven't post Episode 1 yet. Anyway, I'm going to up the ante: There won't a five-star rating, there will be a 1-10 rating. I'm going to post Episode 1 today.

Eh, doesn't really up the ante, all it does is inflate the values. You could concieveably give a film a rating of 3.76034892650891726578013-86598123760589147360795798042657839126598401625987 61287950868794546298756123987564392874562897345687 92657492085647029875674109825674098137243657409218 37456789106570489124657408196457409813256740896754 09817426574980172657414587046587947643089612 out of 5.

As for quote mining, it's the process of taking a quotation and editing it to make it say something different by removing words and prhases (e.g. 'this book is... a must read...' from 'this book is absolute rubbish and is in no way a must read due to sloppy writing and the fact that every other chapter was written by a computer.'). In this case removing the second half of my sentence changed 'the film isn't great, and had problems due to trying to tell too much story' to sounding more like 'the film isn't great, but isn't that bad'.

Dire_Flumph

2020-05-06, 12:26 PM

Marquand had extremely limited directing experience before he was selected for RotJ, and that was one reason why Lucas approved him—so there wouldn’t be the same conflicts that Lucas had previously dealt with from the much more established Kershner. Marquand had no real creative freedom of his own.

That's an...interesting...interpretation. The bigger reason for taking Marquand on as a director was that Lucas had burned his bridges with the Director's Guild of America over a fine that was given him for the director credit on "Empire". They stated Lucas was in violation of guild rules the director must be credited at the front of the film if the producer is. They took the "Lucasfilm Ltd" tag as breaking that rule and fined him. Lucas had a blowup over that and cut ties with the DGA, meaning that he essentially couldn't hire any guild member to direct Return of the Jedi, which was pretty much every established American film director. He had looked at British directors (Including Terry Gilliam it's reported), and up and coming directors like David Lynch. Lynch stepped away after deciding he wanted to make something that he could apply a more personal stamp to rather than the finale of someone else's trilogy (and made Dune, so it's up in the air whether that was a better move). He settled on Marquand whose background was in TV. As in Empire, Lucas needed someone to direct the set work, he had already done most of the post and technical work on Empire as Kershner had no experience there and knew it. Marquand was unfortunately over his head with the scale that Jedi required, that and his failing health (he died in '87) required Lucas to take a more active hand in filming, which he didn't want to do. The end result was reportedly more Lucas than Marquand, but he left the full director's credit to Marquand.

The idea that Lucas can't work with collaborators because he's a control freak is an opinion I've seen a few times that doesn't seem to match what behind the scenes materials exist. His successful collaborations with other directors like Steven Spielberg and Ron Howard should also put to rest that idea. That doesn't mean to say he worked well with everyone as his falling out with Star Wars producer Gary Kurtz shows. The bigger problem was his feud with the directors guild was stiff-necked even if he was the wronged party and deeply limited his options with directors to collaborate with.

Bartmanhomer

2020-05-06, 12:28 PM

Ok, now I'm going to introduced Star Wars Episode 1: The Phantom Menace.

The first episode of the Star Wars happen to be the first three prequels of the original Star Wars trilogy. This movie is about a young Obi-Wan Kenobi who happen to be Quinton Jinn apprentice. Little Anakin Skywalker join the Jedi Forces. When the Trade Federation cuts route It was up to Obi-Wan and Qui-ton to stop the Then. They fought Darth Maul and Jinn got killed. Obi-Wan cuts Maul legs killing him in the process. Anakin saves the universe and they celebrated. Well what can I save. The special effects was good It got a good storyline. The acting was good. It was a good movie for the first Star Wars prequel. The only problem that I have with this movie it just not award-worthy but overall it's a good movie. I'll give The Phanton Menance a 7 out of 10. :smile:

Peelee

2020-05-06, 12:35 PM

Bartmanhomer

2020-05-06, 12:38 PM

Have you thought about skipping the synopsis? Or making commentary on certain events, shots, sets, or performances?

Well, it's been a long time and I'm trying to make it short and detail as possible. I'm going to update the first episode a bit longer :wink:

The Glyphstone

2020-05-06, 12:45 PM

Peelee

2020-05-06, 12:47 PM

Well, it's been a long time and I'm trying to make it short and detail as possible. I'm going to update the first episode a bit longer :wink:

A good review isn't necessarily short or long. A good review informs people of how the movie affected you, what chords it struck or failed to strike, and how well it achieved its goals. A summary of events is just that - a summary of events. If I never saw the movie and read your review, I would know exactly what happened, but I wouldn't know if it would be worth watching; you say something is "award worthy" or not, but that doesn't really tell me anything. You give the film a rating out of 5 or 10, but without knowing why you're pegging it there, that doesn't tell me anything either.

Have you thought about trying to say what you liked or disliked, and why you liked or disliked those things? As it stands, several of your reviews are more or less interchangeable. Without the summaries, we are left with "this movie had action, romance, and comedy. It was award worthy. 5 stars," which tells the reader very little. A recap of the movie alienates people who haven't seen it and conveys no new information to people who have seen it. I think you could have much more engaging reviews if you talked about them instead of simply described them.

Bartmanhomer

2020-05-06, 12:48 PM

Rating reviews on a 1-10 scale instead of your 1-5? That's something new, at least.

I do agree with Peelee though - you can assume that everyone reading this thread has seen the Star Wars movies, so we know the plot and what happens.

Yes. I feel that 1-5 is just too basic so I'm going to start 1-10 now and also the other future movie reviews. :smile:

Palanan

2020-05-06, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard
As for quote mining, it's the process of taking a quotation and editing it to make it say something different….

Absolutely not my intention.

Originally Posted by Dire_Flumph
That's an...interesting...interpretation.

Based on a biography of Lucas I read a year or so ago. My impression was that while Lucas might not have wanted to shoulder the full responsibilities of a director, he couldn’t help involving himself, and ended up having a much stronger influence on Marquand than he would have had on a more experienced director.

Originally Posted by Dire_Flumph
The idea that Lucas can't work with collaborators because he's a control freak is an opinion I've seen a few times that doesn't seem to match what behind the scenes materials exist. His successful collaborations with other directors like Steven Spielberg and Ron Howard should also put to rest that idea.

Well, maybe. As I recall, he and Spielberg came up with Indiana Jones together, but Star Wars was very much his baby. It makes sense that he’d want to exert stronger control over his signature property.

Originally Posted by Dire_Flumph
The bigger problem was his feud with the directors guild was stiff-necked even if he was the wronged party and deeply limited his options with directors to collaborate with.

I think Lucas had a chip on his shoulder going into the industry, which certainly caused a lot of issues.

As for people he’s fallen out with, I think John Dykstra should make the short list. My impression was that Lucas the wronged party in that case too, but a certain stiffness of neck was probably involved as well.

.

Bartmanhomer

2020-05-06, 02:30 PM

A good review isn't necessarily short or long. A good review informs people of how the movie affected you, what chords it struck or failed to strike, and how well it achieved its goals. A summary of events is just that - a summary of events. If I never saw the movie and read your review, I would know exactly what happened, but I wouldn't know if it would be worth watching; you say something is "award-worthy" or not, but that doesn't really tell me anything. You give the film a rating out of 5 or 10, but without knowing why you're pegging it there, that doesn't tell me anything either.

Have you thought about trying to say what you liked or disliked, and why you liked or disliked those things? As it stands, several of your reviews are more or less interchangeable. Without the summaries, we are left with "this movie had action, romance, and comedy. It was award-worthy. 5 stars," which tells the reader very little. A recap of the movie alienates people who haven't seen it and conveys no new information to people who have seen it. I think you could have much more engaging reviews if you talked about them instead of simply described them.

Great advice but however I'm using the 5 star system anymore and you're right about everything. :smile:

Zevox

2020-05-06, 03:55 PM

Wow, this thread is booming and I haven't post Episode 1 yet.
Yeah, that'll happen with Star Wars - definitely around here, and honestly probably most places these days. To put it as simply as possible, there's a lot that can be said about it these days, and many people who care enough to say it. I wish I could say that was a good thing, but...

Rise of Skywalker just dropped on Disney+, so I’ve been able to watch it without feeling guilty about paying anything.
I find myself in a similar position, actually, since my sister recently offered to share her Disney+ account with me. Still, I don't know if I actually will watch it, even for free. I feel like I'd be doing so out of some kind of obligation since I've seen all of the others, or just so that I can give opinions about it having seen it firsthand, not out of any real desire to see it. Between TLJ and the many spoilers I read about it when it came out, I really have no confidence that it's actually any good, and I find that I just don't care anymore. It just feels too likely to be a waste of two and a half hours.

Bartmanhomer

2020-05-06, 04:11 PM

Yeah, that'll happen with Star Wars - definitely around here, and honestly probably most places these days. To put it as simply as possible, there's a lot that can be said about it these days, and many people who care enough to say it. I wish I could say that was a good thing, but...

I find myself in a similar position, actually, since my sister recently offered to share her Disney+ account with me. Still, I don't know if I actually will watch it, even for free. I feel like I'd be doing so out of some kind of obligation since I've seen all of the others, or just so that I can give opinions about it having seen it firsthand, not out of any real desire to see it. Between TLJ and the many spoilers I read about it when it came out, I really have no confidence that it's actually any good, and I find that I just don't care anymore. It just feels too likely to be a waste of two and a half hours.
Well of course Star Wars is a very popular movie and people will talk about it.

Vinyadan

2020-05-06, 04:48 PM

I think that Phantom Menace was the best of the Prequels, or, at least, the one I liked the most back then. The scenery was incredible. You really got how the Galaxy used to be (maybe too idealised in Naboo surface), plus you had the Gungans, which had their own artistic style. However, it already had the problems that would also hinder the rest of the trilogy, like three or four barely explained institutions (the trade federation, the senate, the chancellor, and, to a lesser degree, the jedi council), lots of talking, and some scenes that were there purely for show (the part in the sub and the pod race), needlessly dragging. Anakin was introduced too late, too, and his heroic battle is way too unrealistic. There isn't a clear main character to identify with (Padme probably would have had the best claim).
And, as usual in the Trilogy, the ending is a fake ending. The real ending is that Palpatine is now chancellor. Each film is actually built around the key events that allow Palpatine to become the Emperor (I: Chancellor, II: Special powers, III: Emperorship).

I didn't see anything odd in Jar-Jar back then (and I still barely do).

It clearly wasn't at the levels of the OT, but it was nice to watch, and made me curious about the sequel.

Bartmanhomer

2020-05-06, 04:55 PM

Peelee

2020-05-06, 05:02 PM

Bartmanhomer

2020-05-06, 05:07 PM

Anonymouswizard

2020-05-06, 06:07 PM

That's something I've noticed in most 10-point review systems; 5, instead of being a decent score, is a horribly bad score. 6 is pretty bad, and 7 is the average. It's incredibly top-heavy, and there's no real difference between a 2, 3, or 4; they all equate to "absolute trash".

That's a weird system.

IIRC it stems from a tendency to not want to give products bad scores in case advertising is pulled, therefore a ten point scale becomes a five point scale inflated by five points in most instances.

Bare in mind that a lot of five point scales are closer to three point scales, how many Amazon listings can you think of where the only reviews are 1s, 4s, and 5s? It's prelevat enough that many people now think of below 80% as a 'bad score', causing a lot of grief for places that use scales properly.

Honestly I'd rate TPM as a 5/10, it's impressive visually but the plot is a mess, while the Original Trilogy is probably around an 8 for each film (for reference the Doctor Who TV movie would be around a 6, Utopia, The Sound of Drums, and Last of the Time Lords as 7s [would be 8, but David Tenant], and The Daleks at a 9).

Palanan

2020-05-06, 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by Zevox
It just feels too likely to be a waste of two and a half hours.

Unless you’re really committed to seeing the end of the saga, it can be safely skipped.

I managed to enjoy it in the theater, because some individual scenes and character moments are genuinely cool in themselves. But it’s hardly a satisfying experience overall.

Peelee

2020-05-06, 07:31 PM

IIRC it stems from a tendency to not want to give products bad scores in case advertising is pulled, therefore a ten point scale becomes a five point scale inflated by five points in most instances.

Bare in mind that a lot of five point scales are closer to three point scales, how many Amazon listings can you think of where the only reviews are 1s, 4s, and 5s? It's prelevat enough that many people now think of below 80% as a 'bad score', causing a lot of grief for places that use scales properly.

Honestly I'd rate TPM as a 5/10, it's impressive visually but the plot is a mess, while the Original Trilogy is probably around an 8 for each film (for reference the Doctor Who TV movie would be around a 6, Utopia, The Sound of Drums, and Last of the Time Lords as 7s [would be 8, but David Tenant], and The Daleks at a 9).

I actually find the 2 and 3 star reviews on Amazon the most helpful; 1-star reviews can be just jerks or vote manipulators or people who had problems and instead of looking for solutions for whatever reason just returned the thing, but 2 and 3 star reviews tend to actually showcase legitimate grievances or problems the people may have with the item, which is useful to know if those are relevant to my needs.

Anonymouswizard

2020-05-06, 07:45 PM

I actually find the 2 and 3 star reviews on Amazon the most helpful; 1-star reviews can be just jerks or vote manipulators or people who had problems and instead of looking for solutions for whatever reason just returned the thing, but 2 and 3 star reviews tend to actually showcase legitimate grievances or problems the people may have with the item, which is useful to know if those are relevant to my needs.

You must visit different pages to me, I rarely see them (which was my point, not that they aren't useful, just that they're much more rare).

Peelee

2020-05-06, 07:48 PM

You must visit different pages to me, I rarely see them (which was my point, not that they aren't useful, just that they're much more rare).

Dot com, rather than dot co dot UK. :smalltongue:

True, they are more rare, but my initial issue wasn't the rarity. It was that there is no meaningful difference between a 2, 3, or 4 in most movie or video game 10-point review scales.

Bartmanhomer

2020-05-06, 08:06 PM

Dot com, rather than dot co dot UK. :smalltongue:

True, they are rarer, but my initial issue wasn't the rarity. It was that there is no meaningful difference between a 2, 3, or 4 in the most movie or video game 10-point review scales.

If that was the case in most 10 points system then maybe I should've to continue sticking with the five-star rating. :confused:

Delta

2020-05-06, 08:07 PM

Just because I feel like it I'll give my 2 cents on the prequels myself:

The Phantom Menace has some huge flaws, the biggest one is that it doesn't know what story, or more importantly, whose story it wants to tell. Yes, Anakin is the central character of the trilogy, but here he's a child without much agency beyond the pod race and somehow blowing up the droid control ship in the end. The natural protagonist from a trilogy point of view should be Obi-Wan, since the prequels are basically the story of Anakin and Obi-Wan, but then we get... Qui-Gon. Now I love Liam Neeson and this is nothing against him as an actor, but his character is pretty much useless. Obi-Wan doesn't really learn anything from him throughout the movie, everything Qui-Gon does, Obi-Wan could've easily done himself. Instead, we get to Tattooine where for some reason, we decide to park the guy who is one of the two main characters of our trilogy on the ship doing absolutely nothing for half the movie while Qui-Gon takes Jar-Jar of all people into the city... what?

I mean, I get why they did it. Ewan McGregor was still rather young when EP1 was made and big money movie people were kind of scared of letting a british guy still in his 20s with zero Hollywood experience shoulder the load of a multimillion AAA movie so they took the safe, experienced Neeson to put in front of him, but watching the prequels again, it feels like the decision to cut Obi-Wan out of most of it makes it painfully irrelevant to the story as a whole. Especially since in hindsight, McGregor is the one acting high point throughout the trilogy, in three movies full of actors being left alone with terrible lines and either giving up or never getting into it in the first place, this guy acts his ass off in every single scene and it's painfully obvious how much he loves the character.

Another big knock for me (YMMV) on EP1 and 2 is even by the low standards I put on Star Wars, the plot makes zero sense. Like, literally zero sense. Throughout those two movies, watching them again now, you notice that at any given point, Palpatine and his minions put all their energy into sabotaging his own designs. In EP1, it's quite clear that he does not want Padme to reach Coruscant, to the point where he's willing to reveal his student to the Jedi to stop them (and he quite clearly tells them to stop and kill them, so it's not just a ruse)... and when she finally does, she helps him become Chancellor... so... why again did he want to stop her? Afterwards, he even sends Maul to Naboo to... do what again? Kill some absolutely meaningless Jedi, risking exposing his plans and sacrificing Maul for absolutely no reason at all since again, his plan has already succeeded.

It continues like this in EP2, here it's the Clone Army. It's quite clear that they do not want the Jedi to find out about the Clone army, at all. And yet, it's absolutely essential to his plans that the Jedi do discover the Clone Army on their own, without suspecting his involvement (which is another plot hole on its own, they clearly state that Sifo Dias died long ago yet no one ever even thinks of asking questions like how all of this was set up and most importantly, who paid for the biggest army the galaxy had seen in generations...), and do so in time for the war against the Separatist because that's the only way he can get the Republic into the war without having to expose his plot right then and there.

Again, Star Wars has never been about its layered in-depth plot, but literally nothing about EP1 and 2 holds up to even the slightest bit of scrutiny watching it back. The equivalent would be if in EP4, Vader had decided to use the Death Star to blow up Coruscant and the rebels blowing it up at the last second, to then go to Palpatine Force Twirling his Force Mustache "Mwahaha all according to my plan!"

The other big flaw is just craftsmanship. Lucas clearly has a vision of a story he wants to tell (something 7 to 9 severely lack in my opinion), but to be honest, he sucks at directing actors (which is what a director does, duh), and he sucks at writing dialogue. Had he gotten other people to help him with that on EP1 to 3, even if he had looked over their shoulder the whole way, I think those movies would have turned out much, much better. Especially Ep3, looking back it at, there is an awesome movie in there. The photography, sound, music, the pathos, it's all there. The opening shot of the battle over Coruscant, Anakin's March on the Jedi Temple, the lava backdrop for the final confrontation of Obi-Wan and Anakin, there is so, so much great stuff in there, and in my opinion, EP3 has the best soundtrack ever made for a Star Wars film, fight me. And then... someone opens their mouth and says something that makes you cringe and want to stab your ear. It almost doesn't matter which scene, there's always some line so painful you think "How on earth did anyone think that was a good idea?", the only people who clearly try to do their best are again McGregor who I think at this point was just channeling his inner Harrison Ford and just do better on his own when giving terrible material, and Ian McDiarmid who just so much enjoys hamming it up to heights previously unknown to mankind and chewing through scenery on an intergalactic scale like a bantha on crack it's a joy to watch pretty much every scene he is in.

Okay, this has already gotten a lot longer than I had planned for and I guess no one really cares about my opinion anyway so I'll just close with this comparison: The huge difference between 1-3 and 7-9, in my opinion, is vision. Yes, 1-3 have huge flaws, but beyond all that, there's a big story, the story of the rise and fall of Anakin Skywalker and the End of the Republic and, just as important, a huge, colorful universe Lucas wants to show us. Whether he always succeeded in that is very, very debatable, but I find almost nothing of that in 7-9. To put it in a roleplayers perspective: Rewatching 1-3, even if I didn't like all of it, has made me want to pick up my FFG books and run a game set in the Clone Wars, the Fall of the Republic. Watching 4-6 makes me want to do the same with the era of the rebellion. Rewatching 7-9 just doesn't do that, because it doesn't feel like there's anything there beyond what we see on the screen right now. Everything you could experience in that setting would just be the same you'd do in the Rebellion era, you'd just call it Resistance instead. That is what, for all their many flaws, makes me want to rewatch 1-3 much, much more than 7-9.

Dire_Flumph

2020-05-06, 08:31 PM

Based on a biography of Lucas I read a year or so ago. My impression was that while Lucas might not have wanted to shoulder the full responsibilities of a director, he couldn’t help involving himself, and ended up having a much stronger influence on Marquand than he would have had on a more experienced director.

Just out of curiosity, do you recall which one? To be honest while I've read a few making-of books over the decades (The J.W. Rinzler ones probably being my favorites), I haven't read any of the biographies. Sounds like arguments I've heard posted elsewhere but that I've never figured out where they were from. The perspective might be interesting.

I think Lucas had a chip on his shoulder going into the industry, which certainly caused a lot of issues.

No arguments there. He seems to have mellowed down a lot in more recent times. He certainly came out of the auteur mindset though. He did seem to have trouble finding proper collaborators, though it's probably worth remembering just how different the original movies were back then from anything else being made. Doesn't really excuse not finding people to work with for the prequels though. A good 2nd set of eyes to bounce things off of that he could work with probably would have done those films a world of good. McCallum never seemed like anything other than a facilitator.

Palanan

2020-05-06, 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by Dire_Flumph
Just out of curiosity, do you recall which one?

Can't recall the title offhand, but I think it came out in 2016. It was divided into three main sections, titled Hope, Empire, and Return.

The book seemed thoroughly researched, but based on contemporary accounts rather than author interviews with Lucas himself.

And here it is: George Lucas: A Life (https://www.amazon.com/George-Lucas-Brian-Jay-Jones/dp/0316257443/), by Brian Jay Jones. I enjoyed reading it, but I can imagine there are other perspectives out there.

Dire_Flumph

2020-05-06, 09:02 PM

And here it is: George Lucas: A Life (https://www.amazon.com/George-Lucas-Brian-Jay-Jones/dp/0316257443/), by Brian Jay Jones. I enjoyed reading it, but I can imagine there are other perspectives out there.

Thanks, I'll take a look when I can. The different perspective is what I'm after.

McStabbington

2020-05-06, 09:27 PM

Honestly, the most comprehensive and cohesive account of George Lucas' moviemaking experience with the original trilogy and prequel trilogy was made by SFDebris. I'm surprised more people don't talk about it, because I honestly consider it the authoritative analysis of how and why the original trilogy and prequels came to be what they were.

As for TPM, it's a bad movie, though thankfully we've moved away from the "it destroyed my childhood!" levels of vitriol. It was bad, but it wasn't Plan 9 from Outer Space bad. Unfortunately, that also meant it wasn't so-bad-it's-good territory, either.

But when it comes right down to it, The Phantom Menace is a great example of how the right cinematic rules can go bad if they aren't used in the right way. Like, take for example Jar Jar Binks. Jar Jar Binks, at core, fails because Lucas is trying to accomplish one plot goal, and one meta-plot goal, with the character, and didn't realize that the plot and meta-plot goals were mutually exclusive and clash badly with one another. At the plot level, Jar Jar is how we get introduced into Gungan society, who are the House Hufflepuff or Rohan that helps the Naboo defeat the Trade Federation. For the moment, we're not going to question this plot development, we're just going to roll with it. So okay, Gungans are Rohan, and since the Jedi don't know Rohan/the Gungans, they need a Gungan to introduce them so that they can play peacemaker and unifier. That's Jar Jar's plot function in the story.

And had Lucas tailored Jar Jar's character to his plot function, nobody would have had a problem with Jar Jar.

But then, Lucas said to himself "wait, I need comic relief, and my Laurel and Hardy, R2 and C-3PO, aren't in the early part of the film! Who can I use to be the comic relief?" And his wandering eye fell on Jar Jar, and then things went right down the tubes. Because the thing is, you can't make Jar Jar both the introductory character to the Rohan of the film, and the comic relief, without turning the Rohan of the film into non-serious comedic side characters by extension. If Jar Jar is just this putz wandering around trying and failing not to starve, and then you have the little kids all laugh at the moron, and then you have a faction give the moron any legitimacy or power whatsoever, you know what you do with that faction? You turn them into even bigger idiots by implication, because they were dumb enough to empower the moron. If the Gungans are the Hufflepuffs of the film, then we need to believe that the Gungans are brave and loyal like Hufflepuffs, not a collection of morons. Nobody wants to be saved by morons.

At every step along the creative process, this shows that Lucas' knowledge of the toolbox was good, but he didn't know how to use the tools in the toolbox. Creating comic relief characters? That's smart, because it leavens the darker and more serious aspects of the film. Creating introductory characters rather than have the Gungans pop up out of nowhere? That's also smart. It's only putting those two together that suddenly it doesn't work.

And honestly, the solution was there the whole time: split the plot and meta-plot aspects into different characters, by making Jar Jar a parent. If you want someone to laugh at in the early going, have Jar Jar's kid be earnest but foolish. Meanwhile, make Jar Jar himself the hyper-competent survivor of the deathworld that are the Naboo wilderness. Suddenly, you still have the chance to laugh at someone, but you also simultaneously admire Jar Jar, you feel bad for him, and when the Gungans stop mistreating him for doing the right thing and elevate him, that makes you root for him to succeed. Essentially, all Lucas had to do was break the principle of economy of characters and add Jar Jar's kid, and the character himself I think would have been really liked. Plus, it would have allowed you to add all kinds of parenting subthemes into the story, which kind of contrast Jar Jar with the less-caring Jedi. It's all right there, if Lucas had noticed it, or had other people help him with his script.

Willie the Duck

2020-05-07, 07:05 AM

Anthropophagous teddy-bears, please. They do not eat other teddy-bears.

I know, but I decided that I didn't want to be that guy and went with the easily caught term.

Well, except for a lack of Peelee, this thread is already what I expected from the title.

Everyone dusting off their favorite talking points? Was there ever any doubt? :smalltongue:

Peelee

2020-05-07, 09:11 AM

If that was the case in most 10 points system then maybe I should've to continue sticking with the five-star rating. :confused:

I'm saying that's how most 10-point scales trend to for reviews. Whether that's the case here or not is up to you.

Also, as a potential third option, you don't need to have a 10-point scale or five-point scale or anything like that; you could avoid the "x out of y" system entirely. You should choose the route that is best for you. Ebert, for example, uses a four-star system, but gives half stars, so it's really an 8-point system, which to my knowledge is uncommon. Choose the one you want to go with. If you like the ten point scale, stay the course. If you don't, or want to experiment, then shake things up. But the overall score should be a cheat sheet, a quick and dirty reference that sums up the review. It's not the meat, it's the recap.

Fyraltari

2020-05-07, 11:03 AM

I know, but I decided that I didn't want to be that guy and went with the easily caught term.
"Man-eating" could have worked too.

Everyone dusting off their favorite talking points? Was there ever any doubt? :smalltongue:
Nope.

EDIT:

The acting was good.

You are literally the only person I have ever seen who has a positive opinion of the acting in The Phantom Menace. Your opinion is as valid as any, but the consensus is that thecharacters are all extremely stiff and unemotionnal.

Anonymouswizard

2020-05-07, 01:44 PM

You are literally the only person I have ever seen who has a positive opinion of the acting in The Phantom Menace. Your opinion is as valid as any, but the consensus is that thecharacters are all extremely stiff and unemotionnal.

I'm shocked.

That should be 'the characters apart from BOSS NASS are all extremely stiff and unemotional.'

In all seriousness, I remember there being one or two bits of good acting from most of the main cast. It's just that when compared to hundreds of instances of poor acting (not helped by poor directing) from every actor it's hard to really call the acting good.

Apart from BOSS NASS, but he's nit a main character. Bit of a waste of his actor.

Peelee

2020-05-07, 02:38 PM

I'm shocked.

That should be 'the characters apart from BOSS NASS are all extremely stiff and unemotional.'

In all seriousness, I remember there being one or two bits of good acting from most of the main cast. It's just that when compared to hundreds of instances of poor acting (not helped by poor directing) from every actor it's hard to really call the acting good.

Apart from BOSS NASS, but he's nit a main character. Bit of a waste of his actor.

Imean, most of the actors are great actors. I would imagine that the poor acting was [I]entirely due to poor directing, instead of merely "not helped."

Bartmanhomer

2020-05-07, 02:56 PM

I'm saying that's how most 10-point scales trend to for reviews. Whether that's the case here or not is up to you.

Also, as a potential third option, you don't need to have a 10-point scale or five-point scale or anything like that; you could avoid the "x out of y" system entirely. You should choose the route that is best for you. Ebert, for example, uses a four-star system, but gives half stars, so it's really an 8-point system, which to my knowledge is uncommon. Choose the one you want to go with. If you like the ten point scale, stay the course. If you don't, or want to experiment, then shake things up. But the overall score should be a cheat sheet, a quick and dirty reference that sums up the review. It's not the meat, it's the recap. Thanks for the advice Peelee. :smile:

"Man-eating" could have worked too.

Nope.

EDIT:

You are literally the only person I have ever seen who has a positive opinion of the acting in The Phantom Menace. Your opinion is as valid as any, but the consensus is that thecharacters are all extremely stiff and unemotionnal.
What can I say I love Star Wars. :biggrin: I'm going to post Star Wars Episode 2: Attack Of The Clones later today. :smile:

Fyraltari

2020-05-07, 03:13 PM

Imean, most of the actors are great actors. I would imagine that the poor acting was [I]entirely due to poor directing, instead of merely "not helped."

And Jake Lloyd being a kid.

Bartmanhomer

2020-05-07, 03:55 PM

Peelee

2020-05-07, 06:34 PM

jayem

2020-05-07, 06:54 PM

I think you did a much better job there! The plot summary was just a couple of main points, you pinned down specific things you liked and didn't like that were specific to that movie, i think you did great expanding your review style!
Seconded.

It was really nice to see young Boba, and although it makes it a bit of a small universe, in a sense it's justified as both are described as being the 'best' and we do see the skills being passed on.

What were your favorite 2 special effects?
Where did the action feel quickest and slowest?

Bartmanhomer

2020-05-07, 07:46 PM

I think you did a much better job there! The plot summary was just a couple of main points, you pinned down specific things you liked and didn't like that were specific to that movie, i think you did great expanding your review style!

Seconded.

It was really nice to see young Boba, and although it makes it a bit of a small universe, in a sense it's justified as both are described as being the 'best' and we do see the skills being passed on.

What were your favourite 2 special effects?
Where did the action feel quickest and slowest?

Yeah, highly praised. Well, my favourite special effects were lasers and lightsabers. I feel like the fighting with Anakin Vs. Dooku was a bit tone down.

druid91

2020-05-07, 11:34 PM

So to throw out my 2 cents.

Original Trilogy: It's my clear favorite out of them all. The whole thing is just my defining point of what starwars is. I honestly can't really find much of anything to complain about, aside from some of the bizarre late stage edits GL did, but since I've still got a working VCR and tapes of the originals, if I really want to see it un-altered I can.

Prequel Trilogy: So.... The first jarring issue is that.... well. The first two movies are utterly irrelevant. Like, I enjoy both Phantom Menace and to a much lesser degree Attack of the Clones. But the only movie that really meshes with the OT is Revenge of the Sith which is easily my favorite of the three. Specifically to Phantom Menace, one of the main issues is Quigon. You get to like Quigon, he's a fun look at a 'loose cannon' jedi knight. Then he dies and the rest of the trilogy is the Jedi council smashing 'CONFORM' into Anakin's face over and over again. Which is another problem with the trilogy, nobody takes even a moment to look at the elephant in the room of Anakin's slipping stability. The closest you get is some concern from Obi-wan in RotS, but for the most part, NOONE seems at all concerned about the chosen ones mental health and how he's not reacting well to being told to temper his ambition.

Sequel Trilogy:So, TFA was kind of bland. Like a fanfic version of A New Hope is the best way I can describe it. It's not terrible, because it's got the bones of New Hope, and that's still entertaining. But in the end it's just.... passable. Then you move on to TLJ, which sends the trilogy screeching off the rails and into the air. It's better than Rise of Skywalker, but only because it still had some leftover direction from TFA, the issue of course being, that it destroyed any setup TFA did, didn't replace it with any of it's own, then just left things hanging in a place where logically, the story is just over without two or three more movies to set it up. Then Rise of Skywalker just... makes no sense.

Bartmanhomer

2020-05-08, 01:18 AM

I'm going to post Star Wars Episode 3: Revenge Of The Sith later on and in case you haven't noticed by now I'm going to post each episode every day so that 1 episode-1 day so that makes it 9 episodes-9 days so that everybody will have a chance to comment their own thoughts and opinions with the movie. :smile:

Raimun

2020-05-08, 03:45 AM

Here's my summary of all Star Wars movies and what I think about them:

Phantom Menace: I think it's better than people give it credit. Okay, Jar Jar is just a horrible character with no redeeming qualities but if you ignore him (I always did), the rest of the movie is a pretty solid adventure movie. Liam Neeson and Ewan McGregor give us a good look at what the Jedi were all about before all the galactic wars. I also like the world building, including the senate bits and how it starts to slowly build up the ultimate villain of the series. The final multilayered battle is actually really good (there's a ground, space and covert battle and a lightsaber duel happening all at once!) and I especially liked Duel of the Fates theme and the choreography of the lightsaber duel. Darth Maul was all style over substance but even as a kid in 1999, I knew who the real villain was... which wasn't hard to figure out since I knew from EU that The Emperor is named Palpatine. I were able to see his double dealing scheme even back then, which is something that many people didn't get back then. Still, not among my favorite Star Wars-movies but I kind of like it.

Attack of the Clones: I think this was worse than Phantom Menace. The pacing and plot are all over the place and the quality of the dialogue hit an all time low. Christoper Lee's villain Count Dooku was kind of cool but I remember being confused about this new bad guy, especially since you don't even see what he's all about until about halfway of the movie. While the beginning where Anakin and Obi-Wan were together was interesting, all the bits with Anakin and Padme were just... ugh. Basically, the only good bits in this movie are those where Obi-Wan is around, he's consistently brilliant in the PT. The ending with all the fighting was better than than the middle but I don't think the Battle of Geonosis is among the best battles in the series, even though this kind of spectacle really should be there. Even the lightsaber battles at the end were kind of impactless, even though the fight choreography is still solid. I don't hate this, I just think this is mediocre.

The Revenge of the Sith: This is good. So good. While there are still problems with the dialogue, everything else works really well. There are personal stakes and drama, war, world building, big culmination points in the story and more lightsaber battles than in the entire Original Trilogy. This is good.

New Hope: The story is really basic but I think that works in its favor. I always enjoy watching how this grand fictional universe began.

Empire Strikes Back: It's a movie classic, both inside and outside of Star Wars-fandom. The only really original view point I have about this movie or the previous one is that I think Han Solo is a really overrated character. Basically, his character arc was completed in the previous movie and from this point on, he's kind of just driving a ship and hanging around in the story. Sure, he has that budding relationship with Leia but outside of that, Solo doesn't really add much to the story on his own. And he's not even a jedi or anything. Good blasters are no match for force powers and ancient weapons at your side, as Darth Vader demonstrated to him in this movie.

The Return of the Jedi: I think this is the most uneven film of the original trilogy. The first quarter (or is it even the first third?) of the film where they are rescuing this one guy was too long and de-escalated the galactic conflict. I really think they should have cut it down. Maybe start everything in media res at the Sarlacc Pit when Luke is about to jump down and Leia thaws Han there instead of earlier and Han doesn't need to recover in a cell but is still temporarily blind? The ewoks are also kind of meh. I understand what they were trying to do with them and I kind of like it but I guess they should have been wookies instead.
The rest of the film is good however and I really like how they resolved the story. The previous movie had a big twist at the end that everyone talks about but I think this one had one too. I think I were surprised to see Vader changing sides at the very end.

KillianHawkeye

2020-05-08, 03:57 AM

even the Jedi Republican.

{scrubbed}

Delta

2020-05-08, 04:06 AM

Prequel Trilogy: So.... The first jarring issue is that.... well. The first two movies are utterly irrelevant. Like, I enjoy both Phantom Menace and to a much lesser degree Attack of the Clones. But the only movie that really meshes with the OT is Revenge of the Sith which is easily my favorite of the three. Specifically to Phantom Menace, one of the main issues is Quigon. You get to like Quigon, he's a fun look at a 'loose cannon' jedi knight. Then he dies and the rest of the trilogy is the Jedi council smashing 'CONFORM' into Anakin's face over and over again. Which is another problem with the trilogy, nobody takes even a moment to look at the elephant in the room of Anakin's slipping stability. The closest you get is some concern from Obi-wan in RotS, but for the most part, NOONE seems at all concerned about the chosen ones mental health and how he's not reacting well to being told to temper his ambition.

TBF, I think this is kind of the point. "Jedi Hubris - The Trilogy" could be the subtitle to the prequels as a whole. The Jedi as a whole are so busy being so absolutely certain of their moral superiority that they hardly ever consider even the possibility of a full-fledged Jedi falling to the Dark Side, while Anakin throughout EP2 and especially 3 is just in desparate need of someone to talk to, while in the end everyone just talks over him, leading him to the only guy who seems willing to actually listen to the problems that torture him.

Especially if you watch Clone Wars this becomes even more obvious, the Jedi are most definitely not simply the good guys. Their reaction to the Republic growing corrupt and unable to act (which, to be honest, doesn't ever seem very "democratic" to begin with, accepting hereditary monarchies into their ranks where Senators are just appointed by the royal rulers...) is just expanding their ridiculously unchecked dictatorial powers until there isn't much left from the original idea of a democracy, if there ever was one (Jedi have total immunity from both government oversight and the legal system, and have control of the military on top of that... yeah), at the end of EP2, the Republic has for all intents and purposes already turned into a militaristic theocracy (if you consider Jedi a religion) and they are so convinced of doing the right thing that they actually believe they are doing all this to fight for freedom and democracy.

PopeLinus1

2020-05-08, 05:19 AM

{scrubbed}

Vinyadan

2020-05-08, 06:02 AM

Episode 2, for me, was surprisingly bad. Dooku appeared too late, as someone well-known to the heroes, but unknown to us. Obi-Wan went on a hard-to-follow detective mission that started with a jarring scene in a modern diner, talking with familiarity to someone we had never seen and will never show up again. Then there was the fest of "told-not-shown": a planet we cannot see on the map can be located thanks to a gravity field that we also cannot see. Once on the planet, we find out that a jedi we never saw or heard about and whose reasons remain mysterious ordered a giant army. And the plot focuses on a law about raising an army. Yet the Republic had no oversight over the Kamino business, in spite of needing a law to raise an army? And the Kaminoans do that routinely?
But I never noticed before that there was a law to fight about (again, told-not-shown). It completely went over my head. This is because they never explain its significance in the movie: that it's the reason why Padme was almost killed, because Palpa wanted an army, but Padme didn't want to give it to him (instead, in the movie, iirc the separatists want her dead, to their own detriment). And then Jar Jar gave Palpatine emergency powers, which is the usual problem of badly explained institutions.

The final part, however, was the one that I really didn't like. First we have the cavalry (the Jedi), then we have the cavalry (the Clone Army), then again the cavalry (Yoda during the duel). There was no clear sense of space or progression. The jedi enter an arena and place themselves all in prime target position. Lots of CGI for the sake of it. Fett dies unsatisfactorily, probably in an attempt to show off Mace Windu.

And R2D2 was turned into some weird sort of unlikable flying jerk.

And how does jedi resignation works? Are all resigned jedi evil?

And the love story doesn't advance the plot at all. Anakin's life story is completely disjointed from the plot, which intuitively is a problem.

What's good about this movie? The seismic charges, those are great. I also like the Kaminoans and their chairs. For the rest, even Dooku's duel is good to watch as a clip, but only dragged on an already overlong movie and didn't add anything plot-wise.

Delta

2020-05-08, 06:40 AM

One more nice thing to think about regarding the clone army:

So, we have a Republic that's a republic in name only, it's corrupt, unable to act, the true power lies with the Jedi or some bureaucratic officers. Some people don't like that. Those people belong to organizations that at least going by their name, sound a lot more meritocratic than the Jedi where you get your power as a birthright. Those people try to secede and when the Republic doesn't like that, they build robots to fight for their independence (now of course that opens a whole other can of worms that androids in Star Wars seem to be pretty much full fledged personalities quite capable of independent thought and decision making, but literally everyone in the universe is quite willing to ignore that and consider them property to be used, memory wiped or simply discarded at will, so let's not go there...)

What do the Jedi and the Republic do? They remove the last semblance of democracy by giving all lawmaking power to the Chancellor (up to the point where even lawspeaking is under his control, given how he supervises a trial for treason where it's clearly established that he and a couple Senators can have someone sentenced to death {scrubbed}, then raise a bought-and-paid-for slave army (and it is established canon that for a clone to refuse to fight is considered treason and desertion, up to the point where they can be executed in the field if their CO thinks that's necessary) and place that under the command of the Jedi to force the Separatists back into the fold, no matter how many slaves die along the way.

{scrubbed}

PopeLinus1

2020-05-08, 06:49 AM

One more nice thing to think about regarding the clone army:

So, we have a Republic that's a republic in name only, it's corrupt, unable to act, the true power lies with the Jedi or some bureaucratic officers. Some people don't like that. Those people belong to organizations that at least going by their name, sound a lot more meritocratic than the Jedi where you get your power as a birthright. Those people try to secede and when the Republic doesn't like that, they build robots to fight for their independence (now of course that opens a whole other can of worms that androids in Star Wars seem to be pretty much full fledged personalities quite capable of independent thought and decision making, but literally everyone in the universe is quite willing to ignore that and consider them property to be used, memory wiped or simply discarded at will, so let's not go there...)

What do the Jedi and the Republic do? They remove the last semblance of democracy by giving all lawmaking power to the Chancellor (up to the point where even lawspeaking is under his control, given how he supervises a trial for treason where it's clearly established that he and a couple Senators can have someone sentenced to death {scrub the post, scrub the quote}, then raise a bought-and-paid-for slave army (and it is established canon that for a clone to refuse to fight is considered treason and desertion, up to the point where they can be executed in the field if their CO thinks that's necessary) and place that under the command of the Jedi to force the Separatists back into the fold, no matter how many slaves die along the way.

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

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Iskar Jarak

2020-05-08, 07:27 AM

Honestly, The Last Jedi is my favourite of the sequel trilogy. It comes the closest to being a functional movie and has some individually good moments.
The Force Awakens gets too much credit for what it is: a cynical nostalgia-fest without a story of its own.

The Rise of Skywalker is terrible. I watched it a few days ago. I was expecting a passable action flick but it was boring and exhausting to watch for the first two thirds and outright laughable in the last. Drama and tension are built on cause and effect and clear stakes. This film doesn't understand that. You know your movie is fundamentally broken when a character spins off into the desert at high speed and explodes -- explodes -- and the movie doesn't even try to pretend he's dead or seriously injured. What happens in one scene has little relevance to the next. There are no consequences. The film degenerates into a complete mess of "and then"s in the "finale". It literally feels like the movie was written by a child. A particularly stupid one.
J.J. must be endlessly confused by movies like No Country for Old Men. How can there be tension without planets exploding? We'll never know. If J.J was in charge, the villain would have been a small Death Star. Or perhaps a cloud of even smaller ones.

I've seen people try and excuse the film's hideous pacing because the Last Jedi failed to set it up (which it did). But there's no rising action, just over an hour and a half of pointless, nonsensical, exhausting MacGuffin harvesting. Previously, for me, only Kingsman 2 had captured that special feeling of your soul draining away, but Rise of Skywalker managed to pull it off as well. He filled the time he had with pointless nonsense so he could move onto his "awesome" finale.
I haven't a clue about choregraphy, but it was visibly bad. Ren stabs somebody while moonwalking and later literally bends over and holds his lightsaber behind his back and waits for someone to stab it.
There are no good and memorable shots.
The plot isn't worth talking about except to note its exceptional laziness.
The scenes where J.J pokes at the Last Jedi were amusing, if only because they were so petty and spiteful. The only explanation for Planet Strobe-Light I can come up with is that someone told J.J. that Rian Johnson had epilepsy.
The one moment of real emotion I had was the scene where Chewie learns of the death of Leia. The movie does nothing to earn that scene though -- Chewie has nothing to do this film. Like the other characters without the Force.

I acquired an irrational hatred for Beard, the Expositor and Goggles McExposition. I hate their complete absence of personality; their nonsensical exposition; how they remind me that J.J was too lazy to work exposition in a scene properly and created these abominations instead. I hates them.

I genuinely think this is the worst Star Wars film. Its laziness, desperation and cynicism make it outright repulsive.

Delta

2020-05-08, 07:51 AM

Also, if you look at it as a trilogy of trilogies, the main message seems to be: Oh boy, those Jedi are wrong about just about everything, aren't they?

Especially regarding the whole "No attachments!" rule, why did everything so terribly wrong in EP3? Because Anakin was afraid for Padme, but couldn't actually talk to the Jedi about it because he wasn't allowed to be afraid for her (and when he even hinted at anything like this to Yoda, his very helpful advice was "Well, if you're afraid for someone else, you should distance yourself from them and just forget about them!"), and the only guy who at least pretended to take his problems seriously and try to help him was Palpatine.

Then we go to EP6, what saved the day in the end? Oh, right, the fact that Anakin-turned-Vader, for all his villainy villainness, still loved his son. Had he actually followed the Jedi code and distanced himself from emotional attachments, that would've been a very bleak end for Luke on the floor of the Emperor's throne room.

And what is it that made Kylo/Ben finally refuse the Dark Side and help him and Rey bring down Palpatine 2 (Dark Side Boogaloo)? Oh, right, those same emotional attachments the Jedi are so very no-no about.

Peelee

2020-05-08, 09:04 AM

TBF, I think this is kind of the point. "Jedi Hubris - The Trilogy" could be the subtitle to the prequels as a whole. The Jedi as a whole are so busy being so absolutely certain of their moral superiority that they hardly ever consider even the possibility of a full-fledged Jedi falling to the Dark Side, while Anakin throughout EP2 and especially 3 is just in desparate need of someone to talk to, while in the end everyone just talks over him, leading him to the only guy who seems willing to actually listen to the problems that torture him.

I strongly disagree; or, at the very least, strongly disagree that it was executed that way. Mace Windu is the only one who really fits that category (and, unsurprisingly, the PT Jedi I most dislike). Yoda constantly urges caution, Kenobi constantly tries to reign Anakin in, and no other Jedi really interact with Anakin or the audience.

Keltest

2020-05-08, 09:28 AM

I strongly disagree; or, at the very least, strongly disagree that it was executed that way. Mace Windu is the only one who really fits that category (and, unsurprisingly, the PT Jedi I most dislike). Yoda constantly urges caution, Kenobi constantly tries to reign Anakin in, and no other Jedi really interact with Anakin or the audience.

Indeed. The impression I got just from the movies was that it was Anakin who didn't want to talk to the Jedi about his problems, not the other way around.

Its been a little bit, but my recall is that in AoC, he actually does talk to Yoda about his concerns over his force visions, and basically gets told "life sucks sometimes and we cant control it, so we need to accept it and not let it break us or dictate who we are." which is reasonable advice for a jedi, but not what Anakin wanted to hear.

Vinyadan

2020-05-08, 09:47 AM

Indeed. The impression I got just from the movies was that it was Anakin who didn't want to talk to the Jedi about his problems, not the other way around.

Its been a little bit, but my recall is that in AoC, he actually does talk to Yoda about his concerns over his force visions, and basically gets told "life sucks sometimes and we cant control it, so we need to accept it and not let it break us or dictate who we are." which is reasonable advice for a jedi, but not what Anakin wanted to hear.

It's in Ep. 3. "Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose."

Lvl 2 Expert

2020-05-08, 10:06 AM

From memory, my 2 cents:

Episode 1: Whiny kid, sure, too much emphasis on wacky special effects, I'll give you that, but the dynamic between the two jedi was pretty nice, and pod racing is still easily the most Star Wars thing ever. Just for that I'm going to remember it as the best prequel movie. This one and the second made for probably the best Darths & Droids comics, because they're complex and nonsensical, but not overly so, on both counts.

Episode 2: Like the first movie it went bigger than the original trilogy, inspiring more of a sense of a sprawling complex galaxy. That part works. Whiny adult Anakin is not nearly as badly acted as whiny child Anakin, but is far less of a forgivable character. You're on solid ground here, you're not working with a child actor or doing any kind of creative original character, this is stock stuff, you have to nail it. I feel like this movie was supposed to set up a bunch of stuff that was never used, like perhaps Darth Darth Binks being the master while Palpatine merely becomes the latest apprentice. That would make sense of Palpatine's character arc here, and it would help explain the difference in jedi and sith power levels between these trilogies. It would also be silly, sure, and it might have made for a really bad movie 3. But as it is movie 2 suffers from paths like this being left untraveled.

Episode 3: Darths & Droids had trouble making sense of this sometimes, and their trade is nonsense. There's too much going on, and not enough of it is actually really that important to the story being told. It's one of those movies where you can find yourself snoring through the battlescenes because you stopped caring three galactic council meetings ago.

Episode 4: It's a little amateuristic, honestly. And that hurts it in scenes like the Death Star run. Plus as a stand alone movie it doesn't offer enough answers or closure. It's at least somewhat of a deliberate stylistic choice, the movie was made to look like an old serial feature, but still. Viewed in context of the full series it's probably still the second best movie, but it's also clearly at best only the second best movie.

Episode 5: The pacing is just spot on in this one. The dialogue is clear. The action serves to support the plot. This is a really well told story. It's not overly spectacular through a modern audience's eyes, but it works really well, either as a stand alone movie or as part of the larger series. As far as I'm concerned this movie is the reason the first one became a huge classic rather than a one day fly turned small time cult phenomenon. Remember: this is the one that introduced the Imperial March. It's also the first one that had actual sword fighting.

Episode 6: Some things here are better executed then in part 4. The effects are more convincing, the action is bigger. It's just a little goofed up. And it doesn't completely work. As much as the child in me doesn't want to admit it: the ewoks don't work. Depending on your mood this film might hold up less well than part 1 or 2, though as a product of its time I think it's actually kind of fine.

Episode 7: Well done. Not overly innovative, but well done. It's a good Star Wars movie. It can compete with Episode 4 if you're willing to overlook that it was almost a remake of Episode 4.

Episode 8: Die in a trashcan fire. This thing is an hour too long, and the message of the movie is "Star Wars is bad", because why do cool stuff when you can carefully overthink your actions and not be rash about anything? They have a really good point in the real world, but not in Star Wars.

Episode 9: Haven't seen it yet. Might take me a while to get to it.

Rogue 1: Another movie that might be able to duke it out with Episode 4, which puts it in the top 4 at least. It's a decently done guerrilla movie, with only slightly too much screen time for digital dead people.

Solo: Meh, something is off about it. It doesn't feel like Han Solo all that much. But I'll give them that the whole heist movie style plot was pretty cool.

Caravan of Courage: An Ewok Adventure: I think this was the not bad one of the two, actually kind of entertaining. It's not really up to the level of the good and decent mainline films, but at the very least the ewoks aren't misplaced here, making this a better way to spend your time than screaming at an hour long overly slow chase scene to start moving already.

Ewoks: The Battle for Endor: And that would make this the not not bad one. It already had no budget or grand scale, and then they went and made it a bad movie.

The holiday special: Haven't seen it. Or rather, I think I started on it at some point, but it just wasn't entertaining, and I didn't have any hopes of it becoming more so. Probably ranks between episode 8 and the bad ewoks movie, so it doesn't quite have to die in a trashcan fire.

Anything else, including several Clone Wars versions: I have to draw the line somewhere. Come back when you're live action, and/or good, and/or I've seen you.

Peelee

2020-05-08, 10:25 AM

pod racing is still easily the most Star Wars thing ever.

I never really got that impression. I always felt it was a bloated, extraneous scene that was pretty much put in purely for a video game tie-in.

Keltest

2020-05-08, 10:37 AM

I never really got that impression. I always felt it was a bloated, extraneous scene that was pretty much put in purely for a video game tie-in.

The two aren't mutually exclusive. Part of the charm of Star Wars is there being more species and cultures and such than bricks in a tub of Lego.

If nothing else, it looked cool, though it might have been better served if the stakes on it hadn't been so high. Anakin was obviously going to win, the plot cant go forward with anything less.

Peelee

2020-05-08, 11:05 AM

The two aren't mutually exclusive. Part of the charm of Star Wars is there being more species and cultures and such than bricks in a tub of Lego.

If nothing else, it looked cool, though it might have been better served if the stakes on it hadn't been so high. Anakin was obviously going to win, the plot cant go forward with anything less.

Fair point, but the scene didn't really scream "Star Wars" to me. It was mostly just a race for the race's sake with quasi-spaceships, a couple of "look at how funny this guy is/looks" aliens (I'm looking at you, Ben Quadrinaros and Fode and Beed), and a couple of Star Wars characters thrown in to make it relevant. I didn't even think it really looked that cool, but my biggest complaint by far was how long it took. Which is even worse given that there is zero tension.

Lvl 2 Expert

2020-05-08, 11:14 AM

Keltest

2020-05-08, 11:16 AM

Fair point, but the scene didn't really scream "Star Wars" to me. It was mostly just a race for the race's sake with quasi-spaceships, a couple of "look at how funny this guy is/looks" aliens (I'm looking at you, Ben Quadrinaros and Fode and Beed), and a couple of Star Wars characters thrown in to make it relevant. I didn't even think it really looked that cool, but my biggest complaint by far was how long it took. Which is even worse given that there is zero tension.

The same thing could be said about the death star run. Obviously it isn't going to end with Luke getting shot and Yavin IV blown up.

From a narrative purpose the point is to demonstrate Anakin's piloting skills, and by extension his affinity with the Force. They could have tightened it up a bit, sure, but overall its actually pretty close to the trench run, but with more aliens.

Peelee

2020-05-08, 11:16 AM

O, the actual scene wasn't very good, I agree. The thing itself is super Star Wars. It's exciting, retro-futuristic, realistically nonsensical, an adventure in and of itself, showy in its execution, and the fact that it is performed in front of audiences that haven't invented sunglasses yet just adds that extra touch of weird.

That's actually exactly the sort of commentary I was hoping to get (in the first draft of my response I actually asked "how so?", but deleted it because I thought it came off as possibly aggressive or flippant). I didn't see what was Star-Wars-y about it at first, but that breakdown pretty much nails it, and yeah, I now totally agree with you on that.

ETA:
The same thing could be said about the death star run. Obviously it isn't going to end with Luke getting shot and Yavin IV blown up.

From a narrative purpose the point is to demonstrate Anakin's piloting skills, and by extension his affinity with the Force. They could have tightened it up a bit, sure, but overall its actually pretty close to the trench run, but with more aliens.

It's not because the conclusion is foregone, though. It's that there's simply no tension. We know Luke is going to destroy the Death Star, but it's still a tense scene. Heck, in Better Call Saul, we know that Saul will survive to be in Breaking Bad, and even for those who haven't seen BB (like me, when I first got into BCS), every season begins with shots of him in the future. But there are still scenes where Saul/Jimmy is in danger, where there is an incredibly amount of tension. Lucas wasn't able to really capture that.

Keltest

2020-05-08, 11:24 AM

It's not because the conclusion is foregone, though. It's that there's simply no tension. We know Luke is going to destroy the Death Star, but it's still a tense scene. Heck, in Better Call Saul, we know that Saul will survive to be in Breaking Bad, and even for those who haven't seen BB (like me, when I first got into BCS), every season begins with shots of him in the future. But there are still scenes where Saul/Jimmy is in danger, where there is an incredibly amount of tension. Lucas wasn't able to really capture that.

Maybe its just because Episode 1 is to me what episode 4 is to you (ie you grew up with it and it was your introduction to Star Wars) but to me there is plenty of tension in the scene.

Could you explain where you think the tension comes from in the trench run that isn't present in the pod race? Besides the race maybe going on a bit long, they seem structured pretty similarly to me.

Peelee

2020-05-08, 12:00 PM

Maybe its just because Episode 1 is to me what episode 4 is to you (ie you grew up with it and it was your introduction to Star Wars) but to me there is plenty of tension in the scene.

Could you explain where you think the tension comes from in the trench run that isn't present in the pod race? Besides the race maybe going on a bit long, they seem structured pretty similarly to me.

So funny story, I only really saw Episode IV because my dad wanted to take me to the Special Edition that was coming out, he thought I'd enjoy it. So there was only a 2-year gap between seeing Episode IV and Episode I, I was right in the target demographic for TPM when it came out. The funny part here is I'd heard so much about how Star Wars was so great and everyone loved it and I'm finally watching it and my initial impression after the first minute was, "what is this, just a book in movie form? I'm just going to read the whole thing? Why do people like this?" And then I was completely blown away for the entire rest of the two hours.

Anyway, the music is significantly more tense in the trench run than the podrace (though I think the score from the first movie is the best across the whole series, so there is some bias there). Anakin starts out at a severe disadvantage and catches up to the leader by the second round, so he should win handily as his podracer clearly exceeds the others, but he slows down inexplicably for the final lap, effectively manufacturing tension, which doesn't work. Anakin's problems are also relatively minor; the piece Sebulba broke off causes issues, which are fixed by Anakin pressing a button and flipping a switch, whereas Luke has to have someone else come in and save his life as Luke was too far out of range while Vader had him in his sights (the saving was also the culmination of Han's arc in the movie). The ANH scene was also at the end of the movie, so despite the near-certainty that the heroes will win, there is the incredibly small chance that something unexpected will happen, while the podrace was smack in the middle, so we know it is not the climax and Anakin either has to win to advance the story, or lose and the Jedi will manipulate events to get Anakin regardless, so we don't really need to see the race (or, at least, not so much of it). There's the comic relief throughout the race; Ben and the announcers periodically check in to attempt to add in humor, which undercuts the tension that would otherwise be building up. Meanwhile, the attack on the Death Star is nothing but danger throughout. And finally, there's the reasoning behind each scene. The Death Star attack is borne out of pure desperation, while Anakin is literally going "yipee!" at the chance to podrace. The narrative reason for the scenes to exist to begin with are already on significantly different levels of tension, and how they play out underscores that.

Keltest

2020-05-08, 12:24 PM

So funny story, I only really saw Episode IV because my dad wanted to take me to the Special Edition that was coming out, he thought I'd enjoy it. So there was only a 2-year gap between seeing Episode IV and Episode I, I was right in the target demographic for TPM when it came out. The funny part here is I'd heard so much about how Star Wars was so great and everyone loved it and I'm finally watching it and my initial impression after the first minute was, "what is this, just a book in movie form? I'm just going to read the whole thing? Why do people like this?" And then I was completely blown away for the entire rest of the two hours.

Anyway, the music is significantly more tense in the trench run than the podrace (though I think the score from the first movie is the best across the whole series, so there is some bias there). Anakin starts out at a severe disadvantage and catches up to the leader by the second round, so he should win handily as his podracer clearly exceeds the others, but he slows down inexplicably for the final lap, effectively manufacturing tension, which doesn't work. Anakin's problems are also relatively minor; the piece Sebulba broke off causes issues, which are fixed by Anakin pressing a button and flipping a switch, whereas Luke has to have someone else come in and save his life as Luke was too far out of range while Vader had him in his sights (the saving was also the culmination of Han's arc in the movie). The ANH scene was also at the end of the movie, so despite the near-certainty that the heroes will win, there is the incredibly small chance that something unexpected will happen, while the podrace was smack in the middle, so we know it is not the climax and Anakin either has to win to advance the story, or lose and the Jedi will manipulate events to get Anakin regardless, so we don't really need to see the race (or, at least, not so much of it). There's the comic relief throughout the race; Ben and the announcers periodically check in to attempt to add in humor, which undercuts the tension that would otherwise be building up. Meanwhile, the attack on the Death Star is nothing but danger throughout. And finally, there's the reasoning behind each scene. The Death Star attack is borne out of pure desperation, while Anakin is literally going "yipee!" at the chance to podrace. The narrative reason for the scenes to exist to begin with are already on significantly different levels of tension, and how they play out underscores that.

As far as his pod's speed goes, the fact that he isn't forced to dodge out of the way of all the other racers is likely how he's able to catch up. Ultimately, I think it may just be a matter of personal taste. I literally re-watched the pod scene while waiting for a reply (well, technically im watching the whole movie) and actually seeing his pod fall apart and catch fire is plenty tension inducing to me. It comes with a shot of his HUD that suggests that he has to cannibalize one of the engines to get the other working at all, so if he cant slow down Sebulba then he's hosed. None of what you said is factually wrong, but you make it sound duller than I find it in practice. Except for the score bit; im pretty sure that both the trench run and the podrace actually have no music at all once they get started until the climax of each, so I think at least one of us is misremembering there.

Peelee

2020-05-08, 12:33 PM

As far as his pod's speed goes, the fact that he isn't forced to dodge out of the way of all the other racers is likely how he's able to catch up. Ultimately, I think it may just be a matter of personal taste. I literally re-watched the pod scene while waiting for a reply (well, technically im watching the whole movie) and actually seeing his pod fall apart and catch fire is plenty tension inducing to me. It comes with a shot of his HUD that suggests that he has to cannibalize one of the engines to get the other working at all, so if he cant slow down Sebulba then he's hosed. None of what you said is factually wrong, but you make it sound duller than I find it in practice. Except for the score bit; im pretty sure that both the trench run and the podrace actually have no music at all once they get started until the climax of each, so I think at least one of us is misremembering there.

Even before handicapping his engines to make up for the flaw (which I hadn't thought of, that makes sense), by the time he caught up with Sebulba it was basically just those two with nobody else to maneuver around. But I can take the self-imposed handicap to fix the issue explanation otherwise.

And if I make it sound duller than it was, that's because that's more or less because that's exactly how dull I find that scene. It's one of the worst scenes in all of Star Wars, IMO, because it could be entirely cut without really missing out on anything and just serves to pad out the runtime (again, IMO). It's just really boring to me.

ETA:
I literally re-watched the pod scene while waiting for a reply (well, technically im watching the whole movie)
I wholly approve of this debate tactic!

Keltest

2020-05-08, 12:57 PM

Even before handicapping his engines to make up for the flaw (which I hadn't thought of, that makes sense), by the time he caught up with Sebulba it was basically just those two with nobody else to maneuver around. But I can take the self-imposed handicap to fix the issue explanation otherwise.

And if I make it sound duller than it was, that's because that's more or less because that's exactly how dull I find that scene. It's one of the worst scenes in all of Star Wars, IMO, because it could be entirely cut without really missing out on anything and just serves to pad out the runtime (again, IMO). It's just really boring to me.

ETA:
I wholly approve of this debate tactic!

Its certainly not the pinnacle of storytelling or anything, but I think the characterization it gives to Anakin is something of a necessary evil, given the overall timeline and structure of TPM. Anakin was Obi-wan's student, which means he has to be younger and less experienced. Given Obi-wan's age in this movie, that means he basically has to be a child, and theres a limit to what they can actually have him do. They could have had the entire prequel trilogy take place during the Clone Wars to help with that issue, but that would require scrapping all of TPM, which is I think a little bit of a drastic change to make simply to avoid the podrace (yes, there are other reasons as to why that would be a workable idea, but I don't think those are really germane to the issue).

Peelee

2020-05-08, 01:11 PM

Its certainly not the pinnacle of storytelling or anything, but I think the characterization it gives to Anakin is something of a necessary evil, given the overall timeline and structure of TPM. Anakin was Obi-wan's student, which means he has to be younger and less experienced. Given Obi-wan's age in this movie, that means he basically has to be a child, and theres a limit to what they can actually have him do. They could have had the entire prequel trilogy take place during the Clone Wars to help with that issue, but that would require scrapping all of TPM, which is I think a little bit of a drastic change to make simply to avoid the podrace (yes, there are other reasons as to why that would be a workable idea, but I don't think those are really germane to the issue).

I actually disagree on most of those things. Obi Wan said, "Anakin was a good friend. When I first met him, your father was already a great pilot. But I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him." Now, one way you can showcase that is to have Anakin be a nine-year-old who can podrace. That is far from the only way; Anakin could be in his late teens to early twenties, and be an actual competent pilot, much like Luke himself in the beginning on ANH (it'd be like poetry, it rhymes). Obi-Wan's age doesn't need to be relevant here for Obi-Wan to train him, either; Anakin could begin training at roughly Luke's age (it'd be like poetry, it rhymes), and that could both help foster the friendship that old Ben Kenobi clearly reminisces on fondly in addition to being a breeding ground for Anakin's potential resentment, as he could treated similar to much younger Jedi apprentices by others. This would also have an older actor playing him. No slight to Jake Lloyd here, but with terrible direction, there is only so much an actor can do, as we see with Liam Neeson; with a nine-year-old actor, this is even worse, as the child doesn't have the experience or maturity that an older actor would, which could help them regardless.

So far as I can tell, the only reason Anakin was made so young was because Lucas wanted the target audience to be able to connect with him, ignoring that this was not in any way a hurdle to Luke Skywalker's popularity among kids in the OT. General Grievous was also originally intended to be a small child, but at least he got spared that silliness. Anakin did not, sadly.

Keltest

2020-05-08, 01:49 PM

I actually disagree on most of those things. Obi Wan said, "Anakin was a good friend. When I first met him, your father was already a great pilot. But I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him." Now, one way you can showcase that is to have Anakin be a nine-year-old who can podrace. That is far from the only way; Anakin could be in his late teens to early twenties, and be an actual competent pilot, much like Luke himself in the beginning on ANH (it'd be like poetry, it rhymes). Obi-Wan's age doesn't need to be relevant here for Obi-Wan to train him, either; Anakin could begin training at roughly Luke's age (it'd be like poetry, it rhymes), and that could both help foster the friendship that old Ben Kenobi clearly reminisces on fondly in addition to being a breeding ground for Anakin's potential resentment, as he could treated similar to much younger Jedi apprentices by others. This would also have an older actor playing him. No slight to Jake Lloyd here, but with terrible direction, there is only so much an actor can do, as we see with Liam Neeson; with a nine-year-old actor, this is even worse, as the child doesn't have the experience or maturity that an older actor would, which could help them regardless.

So far as I can tell, the only reason Anakin was made so young was because Lucas wanted the target audience to be able to connect with him, ignoring that this was not in any way a hurdle to Luke Skywalker's popularity among kids in the OT. General Grievous was also originally intended to be a small child, but at least he got spared that silliness. Anakin did not, sadly.

Frankly, I would count that under "scrap TPM and re-write it completely."

Also, as far as Anakin's age, Yoda mentions that Luke was too old to begin the training. Having Anakin also be too old might be poetry, but it also begs the question of why Yoda wouldn't bring up that the last Jedi who was too old to be trained ended up betraying the Jedi and becoming the Emperor's personal attack dog. And, for that matter, it would beg the question of what makes Anakin a special snowflake to deserve the training while so old.

Sapphire Guard

2020-05-08, 02:03 PM

Peelee

2020-05-08, 02:05 PM

Frankly, I would count that under "scrap TPM and re-write it completely."

Also, as far as Anakin's age, Yoda mentions that Luke was too old to begin the training. Having Anakin also be too old might be poetry, but it also begs the question of why Yoda wouldn't bring up that the last Jedi who was too old to be trained ended up betraying the Jedi and becoming the Emperor's personal attack dog. And, for that matter, it would beg the question of what makes Anakin a special snowflake to deserve the training while so old.

Yoda complained that Anakin was too old, so that issue already exists (though I do not think it's really that big an issue). But yes, a complete rewrite of TPM would have been better. The whole PT, really, though a lot of the bones could be kept.

Bartmanhomer

2020-05-08, 02:09 PM

Ok, now I'm going to post Star Wars Episode 3: Revenge Of The Sith.

Three years after the Clone Wars event, Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi and Jedi Knight Anakin Skywalker set on a rescue mission to rescued Chancellor Palpatine from General Grievous the general of the droid army but General Grievous escapes. Suspicion arises from the Jedi Council about Chancellor Palpatine that he made a bond to Anakin Skywalker. Anakin Skywalker embraced the dark side. This movie got everything The best part I like was Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker was fighting against each other in the magma planet then Obi-Wan cut off Anakin limbs excepted one of his prosthetic arms then Anakin was burning in agonizing pain as Obi-Wan left him. Also, there was a fight of Yoda against Palpatine. Palpatine shoots lightning from his fingertips and even though that Yoda lost I believe it was a good fight. I also like the part when General Grievous was being rude to the droid that the give General Grievous an item and Grievous snatch the item away to the droid and the droid said: "You're welcome." There was some humour in this movie as well. I get to see Darth Vader, Luke Skywalker and Leia Organa for the first time. To be really honest there was not one thing that I dislike about Revenge Of The Sith. It has perfect acting, perfect special effect, perfect music, perfect directing. Everything is perfect about Revenge Of The Best and this is one of the best Star Wars prequels and actually one of the best Star Wars movie in the whole series. I'll give Revenge Of The Sith a 10 out of 10. :biggrin:

Lord Raziere

2020-05-08, 02:09 PM

Ok, I'm going to post Star Wars Episode 2: Attack Of The Clones

10 years after the events from the Phantom Menace the Separatist encompassed so many planets and gathered new alliance who posed a huge threat through everybody in the galaxy even the Jedi Republican. So the Jedi make clones from a perfect solider in other to defeat the separatist. The part I like about the Attack Of The Clones where they introduced young Boba Fett and his father. Also, the special effects were good. The part that I dislike like that the action was toned down a bit and it was a bit to slow. The acting and direction of the movie were very decent. Medocore at their finest. So I say it was a decent movie. I'll give Attack Of The Clones a 5 out of 10.

I found this review very short and uninformative compared to others. what is this "medocore" of which you speak? it does not seem to be a word. Which separatist individual encompassed so many planets? I was not aware that Star Wars had such an individual capable of encompassing such a large area, much less in Attack Of The Clones, which is about many individuals, rather than one. Furthermore I cannot find this perfect soldier, only a bounty hunter the perfection of which is not definitively stated. thus this review seems inaccurate, I cannot trust a review that is inaccurate.

Peelee

2020-05-08, 02:11 PM

You've probably heard the phrase 'show, don't tell' with regard to writing. The podrace does a lot of storytelling, it amounts to Anakin's CV, where he demonstrates how insane his skills are. All his core skills get demonstrated, piloting, engineering, unconventional thinking, and insane recklessness and disregard for danger and how they could develop.
Except he's effectively a different person in the next movie, when we see him twice as old as he was last time. And he showcases those same skills and flaws in the opening scenes.
We also get worldbuilding for Tattooine and how cheap life is regarded there -a bunch of racers explode, and the commentator regards it as normal, Tuskens shooting at racers is just 'huh, okay' and the idea that Anakin can compete in this environment anyway.
ANH already showcases the cheapness of life on Tatooine, when Kenobi cuts off two arms and the bar goes back to business as usual when he turns off the saber, and when Solo simply apologizes for "the mess" after shooting Greedo.

The older Anakin is, the less impressive his skills become, and the harder they are to easily compare to other Jedi.
Not if he can compete (even relatively poorly) with Jedi without being trained.

Bartmanhomer

2020-05-08, 02:12 PM

I found this review very short and uninformative compared to others. what is this "mediocre" of which you speak? it does not seem to be a word. Which separatist individual encompassed so many planets? I was not aware that Star Wars had such an individual capable of encompassing such a large area, much less in Attack Of The Clones, which is about many individuals, rather than one. Furthermore, I cannot find this perfect soldier, only a bounty hunter the perfection of which is not definitively stated. thus this review seems inaccurate, I cannot trust a review that is inaccurate.
Mediocre is decent. I made an error of the word.

Rakaydos

2020-05-08, 02:15 PM

You've probably heard the phrase 'show, don't tell' with regard to writing. The podrace does a lot of storytelling, it amounts to Anakin's CV, where he demonstrates how insane his skills are. All his core skills get demonstrated, piloting, engineering, unconventional thinking, and insane recklessness and disregard for danger and how they could develop.

We also get worldbuilding for Tattooine and how cheap life is regarded there -a bunch of racers explode, and the commentator regards it as normal, Tuskens shooting at racers is just 'huh, okay' and the idea that Anakin can compete in this environment anyway. The older Anakin is, the less impressive his skills become, and the harder they are to easily compare to other Jedi.

Y'know, it probably would have been an improvement to negotiate waddo down to "getting top 3" in the podrace, with a comeback of "it's podracing, there wont be a top 3."

Then have it come down to anakin and sebulba, anakin is already in 2nd, but beating seulba is implied to be his first touch of the darkside.

Lord Raziere

2020-05-08, 02:20 PM

Mediocre is decent. I made an error of the word.

Very well. You still have not explained this singular Separatist individual encompassing an ludicrously astronomically large area of which you speak. or what perfect soldier your are talking about. I watched this movie, there are no such things.

Bartmanhomer

2020-05-08, 02:24 PM

Very well. You still have not explained this singular Separatist individual encompassing a ludicrously astronomically large area of which you speak. or what perfect soldier you are talking about. I watched this movie, there are no such things.

I'm talking about the perfected soldier of the clones and the Separatist forming an alliance through the galaxy.

Lord Raziere

2020-05-08, 02:26 PM

I'm talking about the perfected soldier of the clones and the Separatist forming an alliance through the galaxy.

I do not know of any perfect soldier of which you speak, I only know of the bounty hunter known as Jango Fett who is not perfect nor a soldier. What Separatist individual is forming an alliance using the galaxy as a medium and who are they forming it with?

dancrilis

2020-05-08, 02:28 PM

I watched this movie, there are no such things.

You may have watched the movie, but did you watch the movie?

Peelee

2020-05-08, 02:28 PM

I found this review very short and uninformative compared to others. what is this "medocore" of which you speak? it does not seem to be a word. Which separatist individual encompassed so many planets? I was not aware that Star Wars had such an individual capable of encompassing such a large area, much less in Attack Of The Clones, which is about many individuals, rather than one. Furthermore I cannot find this perfect soldier, only a bounty hunter the perfection of which is not definitively stated. thus this review seems inaccurate, I cannot trust a review that is inaccurate.
I used context clues to determine that "medocore" was a typo of "mediocre", "Separatist" meant "the Separatist Alliance" or "the Separatists" (either way, the faction, not a singular being), and the "perfect soldier" was an opinion based on Jango Fett.

Keltest

2020-05-08, 02:30 PM

Finishing up the movie, Peelee, this seems like exactly the sort of completely irrelevant trivia that has a canon answer, and one that you in particular might know or be able to find out. Are Darth Maul's lightsaber staff blades longer than the regular blades used by Obi-wan and Qui-gon, or is that just my eyes playing tricks on me?

Peelee

2020-05-08, 02:31 PM

Bartmanhomer

2020-05-08, 02:35 PM

I do not know of any perfect soldier of which you speak, I only know of the bounty hunter known as Jango Fett who is not perfect nor a soldier. What Separatist individual is forming an alliance using the galaxy as a medium and who are they forming it with?

Genesis, Utapau and Mustafar. Those were the planets were forming an alliance to the Separaist. As I said before the clones were made from a perfected soldier is to create an army.

Keltest

2020-05-08, 02:36 PM

So far as I know, no, they are the same length as most other lightsaber blades (Yoda does have a shorter blade, IIRC).

Hmph. Darn. That would have solved what is easily my biggest frustration with that lightsaber duel. Maul is almost constantly flanked. With his saber staff being a single object, he's absolutely hosed no matter how skilled he is, because it cant actually physically protect both sides of his body at once. But if the blades were longer, his spinning acrobatics would actually be an incredibly potent defensive style, because the extra reach would prevent either of his opponents from actually safely getting in range to take advantage of flanking him.

Ah well, back to chafing at the silly spins.

Also, on further reflection, the pod race also serves another purpose: it demonstrates why kid Anakin can fly into a battle and actually think and do things instead of freaking out and being actively useless.

Lord Raziere

2020-05-08, 02:49 PM

Genesis, Utapau and Mustafar. Those were the planets were forming an alliance to the Separaist. As I said before the clones were made from a perfected soldier is to create an army.

What is the Separaist? This is not the separatist individual you spoke of, and why are these three planets forming an alliance with this separaist? I do not know of what perfected soldier of which you speak. The clones were made from Jango Fett, who is a bounty hunter and not a soldier as he is not apart of any real military and also not perfect for he has a scar and therefore got hurt at least once and a perfect being would not get hurt doing their job by messing it up. your statements are only getting more inaccurate and therefore not a good review of the material.

@ Peelee:
That is only what you interpret Batmanhomer's words to mean. I cannot trust you as your a secondary source who is not batmanhomer, and therefore may be inaccurate about what he is actually meaning, and therefore your "clarifications" may be wrong unless batmanhomer corrects himself using his own words, which he has not yet done.

Peelee

2020-05-08, 02:54 PM

Hmph. Darn. That would have solved what is easily my biggest frustration with that lightsaber duel. Maul is almost constantly flanked. With his saber staff being a single object, he's absolutely hosed no matter how skilled he is, because it cant actually physically protect both sides of his body at once. But if the blades were longer, his spinning acrobatics would actually be an incredibly potent defensive style, because the extra reach would prevent either of his opponents from actually safely getting in range to take advantage of flanking him.

Ah well, back to chafing at the silly spins.

Also, on further reflection, the pod race also serves another purpose: it demonstrates why kid Anakin can fly into a battle and actually think and do things instead of freaking out and being actively useless.
Counterpoint: The autopilot is on most of the time, and Anakin crashes into the Lucrehulk hangar bay shortly after gaining control himself. His victory there comes off much more as luck than anything else, not skill (yeah yeah, Force stuff about luck, the point remains).

@ Peelee:
That is only what you interpret Batmanhomer's words to mean. I cannot trust you as your a secondary source who is not batmanhomer, and therefore may be inaccurate about what he is actually meaning, and therefore your "clarifications" may be wrong unless batmanhomer corrects himself using his own words, which he has not yet done.

I wasn't trying to be authoritative there, I was explaining how I used context clues to arrive at (what so far has been confirmed to be) the correct interpretations. If you would like, I'm sure I could find some websites that instruct or advise on how to use context clues to better interpret writing that may otherwise be difficult to parse.

Keltest

2020-05-08, 02:56 PM

Counterpoint: The autopilot is on most of the time, and Anakin crashes into the Lucrehulk hangar bay shortly after gaining control himself. His victory there comes off much more as luck than anything else, not skill (yeah yeah, Force stuff about luck, the point remains).

Not any actual specific feat (of which everything save navigating to the battle was his. Turning off the autopilot is almost the first thing he does in the fight), but rather his general attitude of trying to solve problems and behaving as somebody with some control over the situation instead of what an actual 9 year old strapped into a fighter jet would do.

Peelee

2020-05-08, 03:00 PM

Not any actual specific feat (of which everything save navigating to the battle was his. Turning off the autopilot is almost the first thing he does in the fight), but rather his general attitude of trying to solve problems and behaving as somebody with some control over the situation instead of what an actual 9 year old strapped into a fighter jet would do.

Fair. Though the same could have been accomplished by him seeing a little bit of the Maul fight against both Jedi. After all, Maul tried spinning, that's a good trick!:smallamused:

Keltest

2020-05-08, 03:02 PM

Fair. Though the same could have been accomplished by him seeing a little bit of the Maul fight against both Jedi. After all, Maul tried spinning, that's a good trick!:smallamused:

Clearly the Trade Federation shields were simply not equipped to deflect rotating masses.

Bartmanhomer

2020-05-08, 03:03 PM

What is the Separaist? This is not the separatist individual you spoke of, and why are these three planets forming an alliance with this separaist? I do not know of what perfected soldier of which you speak. The clones were made from Jango Fett, who is a bounty hunter and not a soldier as he is not apart of any real military and also not perfect for he has a scar and therefore got hurt at least once and a perfect being would not get hurt doing their job by messing it up. your statements are only getting more inaccurate and therefore not a good review of the material.

@ Peelee:
That is only what you interpret Batmanhomer's words to mean. I cannot trust you as your a secondary source who is not batmanhomer, and therefore may be inaccurate about what he is actually meaning, and therefore your "clarifications" may be wrong unless batmanhomer corrects himself using his own words, which he has not yet done.
I've already spoken to you about this multiple times and I'm not going to continue repeating myself. I've seen the movie multiple times and this is what I got out of that movie. :mad:

Peelee

2020-05-08, 03:09 PM

Clearly the Trade Federation shields were simply not equipped to deflect rotating masses.

Man, this is probably the biggest of my "super minor" category of complaints. Red and Gold squadrons have to use proton torpedoes instead of lasers to detonate the Death Star because the exhaust port is ray shielded. Given both the name and the context, this should mean that ray shields blocks rays, such as lasers, but not physical objects. But then in Ep. 3 and TCW, ray shields totally do prevent physical objects from passing through! What the hell, Lucas?!

Keltest

2020-05-08, 03:11 PM

Man, this is probably the biggest of my "super minor" category of complaints. Red and Gold squadrons have to use proton torpedoes instead of lasers to detonate the Death Star because the exhaust port is ray shielded. Given both the name and the context, this should mean that ray shields blocks rays, such as lasers, but not physical objects. But then in Ep. 3 and TCW, ray shields totally do prevent physical objects from passing through! What the hell, Lucas?!

Wookieepedia indicates that while it does not impede the passing of physical objects, it does have the potential to damage them, so if something squishy and made of meat were to go through them, it would burn and/or seriously injure them.

Rather similar to having a shield made of lightsabers, come to think of it.

Sapphire Guard

2020-05-08, 03:14 PM

Except he's effectively a different person in the next movie, when we see him twice as old as he was last time. And he showcases those same skills and flaws in the opening scenes.

Those skills mean different things aged 9 pre training and aged 19 post training.

Competing with other Jedi pre training would just devalue Jedi training.

Deaths in a particular (noted as particularly scummy) bar are different from deliberately killing other drivers in a grand prix in front of a cheering crowd without anyone caring.

Peelee

2020-05-08, 03:14 PM

Wookieepedia indicates that while it does not impede the passing of physical objects, it does have the potential to damage them, so if something squishy and made of meat were to go through them, it would burn and/or seriously injure them.

Rather similar to having a shield made of lightsabers, come to think of it.

Sounds like something you would absolutely not want to send explosives through, then, ya know?

Seriously, all they had to do was use a different name. Super easy. No having to get into the weeds of why torpedoes are fine but people aren't.

Keltest

2020-05-08, 03:18 PM

Sounds like something you would absolutely not want to send explosives through, then, ya know?

Seriously, all they had to do was use a different name. Super easy. No having to get into the weeds of why torpedoes are fine but people aren't.

Im no weapons expert, but im given to understand that most explosives both IRL and in fiction are specifically designed not to detonate if they were, say, overheated or otherwise damaged in some way, for hopefully obvious reasons.

So passing a missile through might make it hot, which doesn't stop it, at which point it reaches its target and goes boom anyway.

Peelee

2020-05-08, 03:19 PM

Sounds like something you would absolutely not want to send explosives through, then, ya know?

Seriously, all they had to do was use a different name. Super easy. No having to get into the weeds of why torpedoes are fine but people aren't.

Those skills mean different things aged 9 pre training and aged 19 post training.

Competing with other Jedi pre training would just devalue Jedi training.
Wholly disagree, especially since I specified relatively poorly. The "relatively" part there is the important bit; one can still do poorly against Jedi but still far outperform regular humans. Just as a quick example, being the only non-Jedi human who can podrace is still impressive at 19, and much less silly than at 9.

Deaths in a particular (noted as particularly scummy) bar are different from deliberately killing other drivers in a grand prix in front of a cheering crowd without anyone caring.
What does it really add? We already have a good breadth of knowledge of how life on Tatooine sucks from Episodes IV and VI, and in I, that scene comes at the very end of their stay on Tatooine. They have a few minutes screentime left on the planet afterwards, and the biggest part of that is the Darth Maul reveal.

Keltest

2020-05-08, 03:21 PM

What does it really add? We already have a good breadth of knowledge of how life on Tatooine sucks from Episodes IV and VI, and in I, that scene comes at the very end of their stay on Tatooine. They have a few minutes screentime left on the planet afterwards, and the biggest part of that is the Darth Maul reveal.

I don't think its unreasonable to expect each movie to stand roughly on its own merits as a contained story. Not everybody who sees TPM for the first time will have seen ANH, especially since this particular one is billed as Episode 1.

Peelee

2020-05-08, 03:26 PM

I don't think its unreasonable to expect each movie to stand roughly on its own merits as a contained story. Not everybody who sees TPM for the first time will have seen ANH, especially since this particular one is billed as Episode 1.

The very nature of being explicitly serialized movies should negate that premise. TPM may arguably get a pass as it's being passed off as the first, but even then, it still adds nothing to the story; Anakin and Shmi are already slaves, which already tells us that life on Tatooine is cheap - it can literally be bought and sold for the value of something a kid could build.

ETA: You might correct me on that, I think the podracer was part of the bet but I can't remember exactly.

Keltest

2020-05-08, 03:34 PM

The very nature of being explicitly serialized movies should negate that premise. TPM may arguably get a pass as it's being passed off as the first, but even then, it still adds nothing to the story; Anakin and Shmi are already slaves, which already tells us that life on Tatooine is cheap - it can literally be bought and sold for the value of something a kid could build.

ETA: You might correct me on that, I think the podracer was part of the bet but I can't remember exactly.

The pod was Qui-gon's bet against Anakin's freedom. Watto points out that no pod, no matter how good, would be worth two slaves, and this was after Qui-god (apparently correctly) described it as the "fastest ever built," and Watto's own pod having been junked in a previous race. Also keeping in mind that Anakin has never finished a race before.

Peelee

2020-05-08, 03:42 PM

The pod was Qui-gon's bet against Anakin's freedom. Watto points out that no pod, no matter how good, would be worth two slaves, and this was after Qui-god (apparently correctly) described it as the "fastest ever built," and Watto's own pod having been junked in a previous race. Also keeping in mind that Anakin has never finished a race before.

Ya know, that weirdly undercuts the podrace danger; Anakin has never finished a race (implying he's raced more than once before), and Watto gets the pod if Anakin loses. Both of which imply that both the person and the podracer will survive the race.

Keltest

2020-05-08, 03:50 PM

Ya know, that weirdly undercuts the podrace danger; Anakin has never finished a race (implying he's raced more than once before), and Watto gets the pod if Anakin loses. Both of which imply that both the person and the podracer will survive the race.

The risk of death is there, but I think only two of the racers actually die. Anakin's is the only pod that survives the race 100% intact (sans the one part that flies off), and a lot of the other pods have their engines totaled to some degree, but in general its implied that Anakin is in danger mostly because he is human (and a child) rather than because the races are inherently lethal by design.

Also, Watto runs a junk shop. Even a trashed pod is useful to him in at least some measure. Between that and the fact that Anakin basically cant win from his perspective, its free real estate.

Peelee

2020-05-08, 03:58 PM

The risk of death is there, but I think only two of the racers actually die. Anakin's is the only pod that survives the race 100% intact (sans the one part that flies off), and a lot of the other pods have their engines totaled to some degree, but in general its implied that Anakin is in danger mostly because he is human (and a child) rather than because the races are inherently lethal by design.

Also, Watto runs a junk shop. Even a trashed pod is useful to him in at least some measure. Between that and the fact that Anakin basically cant win from his perspective, its free real estate.

Given that he's the only human who has reflexes fast enough to compete, as well as the fact that Anakin hasn't won before, the odds of the podracer surviving in any state so as to be worth betting a slave have to be pretty low. Watto seems to be taking on the definition of a sucker's bet here. Not to mention that when he says "no pod is worth two slaves," he's talking about a specific pod, which was built by a child, which has yet to win a race, and yet is still proclaimed as the fastest one. It's like Han bragging about the Falcon in Mos Eisley. Watto was definitely taking on a suckers bet, but even he had his limits.

Keltest

2020-05-08, 04:00 PM

Given that he's the only human who has reflexes fast enough to compete, as well as the fact that Anakin hasn't won before, the odds of the podracer surviving in any state so as to be worth betting a slave have to be pretty low. Watto seems to be taking on the definition of a sucker's bet here. Not to mention that when he says "no pod is worth two slaves," he's talking about a specific pod, which was built by a child, which has yet to win a race, and yet is still proclaimed as the fastest one. It's like Han bragging about the Falcon in Mos Eisley. Watto was definitely taking on a suckers bet, but even he had his limits.

If anybody would know, its Watto, since Anakin has raced his own personal pod in the past, at least with enough skill that Watto kept letting him do it.

Also, Qui-gon straight up lied to Watto about where he got the pod from. He claimed to have won it in a game of chance, and Anakin specifically calls out that Watto doesn't know he's been building his own pod.

As a refresher, the specific negotiations started with Qui-gon supplying the pod and the entry fee, with Watto supplying the pilot, and they split the winning 50/50. Qui-gon, not having any money to cover the fee with, suggests they change the agreement so that Watto supplies the entry fee as well, and if they win he gets to keep the prize money, sans the price of the parts they need, and Qui-gon offers their ship as collateral for the entry fee if they lose. This is agreed to.

Qui-gon then follows up with a second bet after hearing Watto brag about how sure he is that Sebulba will win, that Anakin will win against Sebulba, the stakes being the pod for Anakin and his mother. Watto declines, as he doesn't feel any pod is worth two slaves. He doesn't want to give up Anakin, but he has a weakness for gambling in general, so he pulls out a D6 to decide which slave is bet. Qui-gon uses the force to cheat and make sure it comes up for Anakin. This is begrudgingly agreed upon as well.

Friv

2020-05-08, 04:10 PM

Very well. You still have not explained this singular Separatist individual encompassing an ludicrously astronomically large area of which you speak. or what perfect soldier your are talking about. I watched this movie, there are no such things.

Raz, I feel like we've posted around each other for a while, and I'm usually on your side, so please trust me when I say that this is not coming across as funny or instructional. We all understand the context of what Bartmanhomer is saying, and pretending to misunderstand people in order to be smug about it isn't a good look.

Peelee

2020-05-08, 04:16 PM

If anybody would know, its Watto, since Anakin has raced his own personal pod in the past, at least with enough skill that Watto kept letting him do it.

Also, Qui-gon straight up lied to Watto about where he got the pod from. He claimed to have won it in a game of chance, and Anakin specifically calls out that Watto doesn't know he's been building his own pod.

As a refresher, the specific negotiations started with Qui-gon supplying the pod and the entry fee, with Watto supplying the pilot, and they split the winning 50/50. Qui-gon, not having any money to cover the fee with, suggests they change the agreement so that Watto supplies the entry fee as well, and if they win he gets to keep the prize money, sans the price of the parts they need, and Qui-gon offers their ship as collateral for the entry fee if they lose. This is agreed to.

Qui-gon then follows up with a second bet after hearing Watto brag about how sure he is that Sebulba will win, that Anakin will win against Sebulba, the stakes being the pod for Anakin and his mother. Watto declines, as he doesn't feel any pod is worth two slaves. He doesn't want to give up Anakin, but he has a weakness for gambling in general, so he pulls out a D6 to decide which slave is bet. Qui-gon uses the force to cheat and make sure it comes up for Anakin. This is begrudgingly agreed upon as well.

Fair points on the podracer, not so much on the bet itself; you're assuming Watto is making a rational, or even a good, bet. Even if we discount the one who disappeared, 12 out of 19 racers crashed (all crashes we see totally demolish the podracers). That's 63% of the pods that did not survive the race. 68% if you do want to count the one that disappeared. That's terrible odds to bet on something surviving, let alone on said thing being the winnings against something else! There's a huge chance that even if Watto wins the bet, the winnings he'll get are worthless, whereas if he loses, the other party has no chance of the winnings being worthless.

That is an objectively terrible bet to make. You either lose, and lose an asset, win and do not gain an asset, or win and gain an asset. And of the two win conditions, the "do not gain an asset" is more likely than "gain an asset"! Even if the odds of winning are good, the odds of getting anything for the win are bad, while you are definitely out if you lose.

This does nothing to shake my core belief that, all else aside, the movie was poorly written.

Keltest

2020-05-08, 04:23 PM

Fair points on the podracer, not so much on the bet itself; you're assuming Watto is making a rational, or even a good, bet. Even if we discount the one who disappeared, 12 out of 19 racers crashed (all crashes we see totally demolish the podracers). That's 63% of the pods that did not survive the race. 68% if you do want to count the one that disappeared. That's terrible odds to bet on something surviving, let alone on said thing being the winnings against something else! There's a huge chance that even if Watto wins the bet, the winnings he'll get are worthless, whereas if he loses, the other party has no chance of the winnings being worthless.

That is an objectively terrible bet to make. You either lose, and lose an asset, win and do not gain an asset, or win and gain an asset. And of the two win conditions, the "do not gain an asset" is more likely than "gain an asset"! Even if the odds of winning are good, the odds of getting anything for the win are bad, while you are definitely out if you lose.

This does nothing to shake my core belief that, all else aside, the movie was poorly written.

Of course its terrible, but Qui-gon was specifically told that Watto has a weakness for gambling, and in particular he is outright challenging Watto over his confidence in Sebulba. While Qui-gon is obviously playing Watto from the audience's perspective, Watto is in fact the one who leads with saying that he bet everything on Sebulba, to which Qui-gon responds "I'll take that bet." Backing down at that point would be a moderate loss of face over a risk that Watto doesn't really consider to be terribly real. Its very much a case of him gambling for the sake of gambling, but that's the point: Qui-gon was manipulating the situation to try and put him in that position.

Peelee

2020-05-08, 04:31 PM

Of course its terrible, but Qui-gon was specifically told that Watto has a weakness for gambling, and in particular he is outright challenging Watto over his confidence in Sebulba. While Qui-gon is obviously playing Watto from the audience's perspective, Watto is in fact the one who leads with saying that he bet everything on Sebulba, to which Qui-gon responds "I'll take that bet." Backing down at that point would be a moderate loss of face over a risk that Watto doesn't really consider to be terribly real. Its very much a case of him gambling for the sake of gambling, but that's the point: Qui-gon was manipulating the situation to try and put him in that position.

Given that Watto refuses the two slaves condition, he considers it to be real enough that the possibility of losing is a definite possibility. Given that this bet on its face is, in theory, significantly safer than his other bet (Betting on Sebulba winning is a 1 in 19 chance, everything else being equal, while betting on Anakin not winning is an 18 in 19 chance, everything else being equal). Now, all else is not equal, and these don't reflect accurate odds, but Watto still considers a potentially safe bet as a dangerous enough bet to not bet both slaves, and yet makes the bet with incredibly disadvantageous conditions should he win. That's not a weakness for gambling, that's being a stupid gambler. And if an otherwise smart character has to be stupid in order for the protagonists to come out on top, I would rather it just be written differently. The villains are already stupid enough in this trilogy.

And don't even get me started on the obvious solution to the ship issue they had.

Keltest

2020-05-08, 04:32 PM

Given that Watto refuses the two slaves condition, he considers it to be real enough that the possibility of losing is a definite possibility. Given that this bet on its face is, in theory, significantly safer than his other bet (Betting on Sebulba winning is a 1 in 19 chance, everything else being equal, while betting on Anakin not winning is an 18 in 19 chance, everything else being equal). Now, all else is not equal, and these don't reflect accurate odds, but Watto still considers a potentially safe bet as a dangerous enough bet to not bet both slaves, and yet makes the bet with incredibly disadvantageous conditions should he win. That's not a weakness for gambling, that's being a stupid gambler. And if an otherwise smart character has to be stupid in order for the protagonists to come out on top, I would rather it just be written differently. The villains are already stupid enough in this trilogy.

And don't even get me started on the obvious solution to the ship issue they had.

Walking into his junkyard at night and taking the parts?

dancrilis

2020-05-08, 04:34 PM

The villains are already stupid enough in this trilogy.

I thought Palpatine came across as bright enough (even if some of his plans only worked because other people were stupid).

hamishspence

2020-05-08, 04:41 PM

Given that he's the only human who has reflexes fast enough to compete, as well as the fact that Anakin hasn't won before, the odds of the podracer surviving in any state so as to be worth betting a slave have to be pretty low.

True - but it's happened before:

"It wasn't my fault, really.Sebulba flashed me with his vents. I actually saved the Pod ... mostly."
"That you did, huh. The boy is good, no doubts there."

Watto was probably operating on the presumption that this would be more likely than either an obliterated Pod, or a win for Anakin.

Peelee

2020-05-08, 04:48 PM

Walking into his junkyard at night and taking the parts?
OK, that got a good laugh out of me.

But for real, they have a very fancy ship with no hyperdrive, Watto has a hypderdrive. Trade very fancy ship with no hyperdrive for less fancy ship with hyperdrive. Protagonists now have a ship with a hyperdrive, Watto has a more expensive ship with hyperdrive, Watto would absolutely take that deal and the protags can immediately leave for Coruscant. Price difference may even be enough to get Anakin out of the deal.

It would remove a large chunk of the movie, which is why there should be a reason for them to not take this obvious and optimal solution, but, well, you know....

Keltest

2020-05-08, 04:51 PM

OK, that got a good laugh out of me.

But for real, they have a very fancy ship with no hyperdrive, Watto has a hypderdrive. Trade very fancy ship with no hyperdrive for less fancy ship with hyperdrive. Protagonists now have a ship with a hyperdrive, Watto has a more expensive ship with hyperdrive, Watto would absolutely take that deal and the protags can immediately leave for Coruscant. Price difference may even be enough to get Anakin out of the deal.

It would remove a large chunk of the movie, which is why there should be a reason for them to not take this obvious and optimal solution, but, well, you know....

Doesn't that presume that Watto has a working ship with a hyperdrive? I don't recall that actually ever being stated.

Peelee

2020-05-08, 04:54 PM

Doesn't that presume that Watto has a working ship with a hyperdrive? I don't recall that actually ever being stated.

I don't have a spare Honda Civic lying around, but if I can trade one for a Porsche I guarantee you I can acquire one.

Keltest

2020-05-08, 04:59 PM

I don't have a spare Honda Civic lying around, but if I can trade one for a Porsche I guarantee you I can acquire one.

Watto showed them a tour of his junkyard. Promising them a ship he visibly doesn't have would, at the very least, strongly incentivize them to continue searching other dealers and cut him out entirely.

Fyraltari

2020-05-08, 05:02 PM

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GqCqs7GVPFE

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LjtZ3CptD8I

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_DzI3k0aF2Y

Peelee

2020-05-08, 05:02 PM

Watto showed them a tour of his junkyard. Promising them a ship he visibly doesn't have would, at the very least, strongly incentivize them to continue searching other dealers and cut him out entirely.

While pulling out nobody else has what you eant"despite being a smaller dealer in a large city somehow didn't?

Vinyadan

2020-05-08, 05:08 PM

Except he's effectively a different person in the next movie, when we see him twice as old as he was last time. And he showcases those same skills and flaws in the opening scenes.

This is something I have thought about. Wouldn't it have been cool, since we wanted to know Vader's backstory, to have the movies start with a grown-up Anakin who is going through a crisis and also tries to understand who he really is? We discover what he already knows -- that this great knight used to be a slave, that he is ferociously loyal to those who got him out, but also that he feels trapped in a dead end. And then he talks about it with Shmi, and discovers that he was literally birthed by the Force. And then he starts to wonder if the problem is that the Jedi are unlike him, and that maybe their rules can bring happiness to the ordinary, while he is one of a kind. And he had known about the prophecy before he talked with his mom, and so he wonders about how that factors in: maybe he has some special responsibility which requires him to follow a different path.

Not if he can compete (even relatively poorly) with Jedi without being trained.

Empress Rey!

Keltest

2020-05-08, 05:09 PM

While pulling out nobody else has what you eant"despite being a smaller dealer in a large city somehow didn't?

I mean, if its an accurate statement, then obviously it wouldn't matter if it cheeses them off. Whereas the idea of him getting a fully functional ship requires A: him to have that much liquid currency on him, B: him to know where such a ship is and how to get it, C: for Qui-gon and co to not just walk out on the spot to try and find this ship that he claims to be able to get but doesn't actually have.

While there are a couple other ways they might have been able to play that scene, I don't think "Watto buys them a working ship and trades it for their Nubian cruiser to sell for a profit" is a particularly realistic scenario. Theres a reason house flipping isn't an especially common profession, just as an analogy.

hamishspence

2020-05-08, 05:12 PM

Watto tells them outright that buying a new ship would be cheaper than buying a new hyperdrive for this ship.

Think of it as like a Rolls Royce that will only run on a Rolls Royce engine, and Watto (or so he claims) has the only one on Tatooine.

But a Rolls Royce with no engine, in this context, is almost worthless, to someone who can't easily get an engine that will work with it.

Their ship is worth enough to pay the entry fee for a Podracer, but not much more.

Sapphire Guard

2020-05-08, 05:26 PM

Wholly disagree, especially since I specified relatively poorly. The "relatively" part there is the important bit; one can still do poorly against Jedi but still far outperform regular humans. Just as a quick example, being the only non-Jedi human who can podrace is still impressive at 19, and much less silly than at 9.

Impressive, yes. But does that make him something more than your average FS pilot?

Re Tattooine, it shows the kind of environment Anakin specifically has to survive in, how little his life is worth here.

Re gambling, it's not a strictly mathematical gain, it's about what's valuable to the people involved.

Watto has recently lost a pod, a replacement would come in handy, and if it gets smashed, he runs a spare parts shop.

'Fastest pod ever built' is just salesman talk. Anakin is flying it, that's the important point.

Watto thinks he's betting on a professional driver v a nine year old who has never finished a race. He thinks it's sure thing. Qui Gon is banking on the Force being in his corner.

We don't really know the average rate of destroyed podracers per race, except that it doesn't surprise the commentator.

Peelee

2020-05-08, 05:40 PM

I mean, if its an accurate statement, then obviously it wouldn't matter if it cheeses them off.
It being an accurate statement only makes the trade that much more obvious; see below.

Watto tells them outright that buying a new ship would be cheaper than buying a new hyperdrive for this ship.

Think of it as like a Rolls Royce that will only run on a Rolls Royce engine, and Watto (or so he claims) has the only one on Tatooine.

But a Rolls Royce with no engine, in this context, is almost worthless, to someone who can't easily get an engine that will work with it.

Their ship is worth enough to pay the entry fee for a Podracer, but not much more.

In this context, I have a RR with no engine. You have an RR engine. Neither is worth much on its own. However, if I trade you my engine less RR for a fully functional Honda Civic, I get a working car to get to my meeting on time and you now have a fully functional RR.

Assuming Watto is speaking the truth about having the only hyper drive, it doesn't matter if he doesn't have another working ship on hand. He can get one and make the trade and still come out ahead.

Impressive, yes. But does that make him something more than your average FS pilot?
It does if they say it does. Them saying he's the only human that podraces was apparently good enough as it already stands, after all.

Re Tattooine, it shows the kind of environment Anakin specifically has to survive in, how little his life is worth here.
The fact that he was a slave who could be gambled away does that already. The gratuitous race scene where the outcome is obvious dies little to enhance that.

hamishspence

2020-05-08, 05:47 PM

There's still the question of "Can Watto get his hands on a cheap, yet fully functional, starship to trade for the engine?"

Though I'd agree that the moment Watto hears about the ship, he should be trying, and bringing up the possibility that they can go to Coruscant in a cheap ship, with the right combination of trades.

Peelee

2020-05-08, 06:00 PM

hamishspence

2020-05-08, 06:04 PM

Given that he was able to somehow acquire a metaphorical RR engine, I see no reason to believe he couldn't.

Chains of Deals can be tricky:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChainOfDeals

which illustrates why currency tends to be better than barter.

Peelee

2020-05-08, 07:01 PM

Chains of Deals can be tricky:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChainOfDeals

which illustrates why currency tends to be better than barter.

Indeed. Watto likely has some currency, definitely has goods that can be converted to currency, and possibly may be able to secure some form of credit (albeit likely at some risk).

It would likely be a little clunky, if workable.

Keltest

2020-05-08, 07:09 PM

Indeed. Watto likely has some currency, definitely has goods that can be converted to currency, and possibly may be able to secure some form of credit (albeit likely at some risk).

It would likely be a little clunky, if workable.

I mean, youre still making some pretty big assumptions here. Namely, that there is even a ship he could obtain, and that he would be able to liquidate or otherwise make use of the Nubian cruiser. Mos Espa doesn't even appear to have a proper space port, it seems rather likely that there isn't an abundance of spare ships for sale there.

Peelee

2020-05-08, 09:07 PM

I mean, youre still making some pretty big assumptions here. Namely, that there is even a ship he could obtain, and that he would be able to liquidate or otherwise make use of the Nubian cruiser. Mos Espa doesn't even appear to have a proper space port, it seems rather likely that there isn't an abundance of spare ships for sale there.

Mos Espa is a spaceport city; we even see a YT-2400 taking off from deeper in the city. The protags did not land in the spaceport for fear of attracting attention, and were seeking a low profile. So there are absolutely ships. The difficulty in liquidating a high-value item like a Nubian cruiser would be somewhat difficult, if the cruiser itself couldn't be used to travel to more fertile areas to sell. And that's ignoring the Hutts, who have deep pockets and vanity in spades. Further, that Watto has a compatible hyper drive which he himself describes as very rare and very expensive, and since we're taking his word on these things, dealing in high-end items does not seem to be outside his wheelhouse.

Finally, Watto says it might be cheaper to get a new ship than to get a hyper drive, so I do believe that begs the question... Why didn't they try to buy a new ship? Sure, Watto may not take Republic credits, but he's tied down in Mos Espa. That's not to say that others who do travel through Republic space would be so picky. Or heck, even just hire a pilot to take them, like Kenobi and Luke did. I doubt Han thought that when he got to Alderaan he'd be paid in Outer Rim coin.

Bartmanhomer

2020-05-08, 11:03 PM

Ok, I'm done with the prequel trilogy. I'm going to post Star Wars Episode 4: A New Hope later today. :smile:

The Glyphstone

2020-05-09, 01:55 AM

Ok, I'm done with the prequel trilogy. I'm going to post Star Wars Episode 4: A New Hope later today. :smile:

Did you skip Episode 3: Revenge of the Sith? I don't see it in the thread.

uncool

2020-05-09, 02:14 AM

Did you skip Episode 3: Revenge of the Sith? I don't see it in the thread.
It's at the bottom of page 3.

Ok, now I'm going to post Star Wars Episode 3: Revenge Of The Sith.

Three years after the Clone Wars event, Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi and Jedi Knight Anakin Skywalker set on a rescue mission to rescued Chancellor Palpatine from General Grievous the general of the droid army but General Grievous escapes. Suspicion arises from the Jedi Council about Chancellor Palpatine that he made a bond to Anakin Skywalker. Anakin Skywalker embraced the dark side. This movie got everything The best part I like was Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker was fighting against each other in the magma planet then Obi-Wan cut off Anakin limbs excepted one of his prosthetic arms then Anakin was burning in agonizing pain as Obi-Wan left him. Also, there was a fight of Yoda against Palpatine. Palpatine shoots lightning from his fingertips and even though that Yoda lost I believe it was a good fight. I also like the part when General Grievous was being rude to the droid that the give General Grievous an item and Grievous snatch the item away to the droid and the droid said: "You're welcome." There was some humour in this movie as well. I get to see Darth Vader, Luke Skywalker and Leia Organa for the first time. To be really honest there was not one thing that I dislike about Revenge Of The Sith. It has perfect acting, perfect special effect, perfect music, perfect directing. Everything is perfect about Revenge Of The Best and this is one of the best Star Wars prequels and actually one of the best Star Wars movie in the whole series. I'll give Revenge Of The Sith a 10 out of 10. :biggrin:

Fyraltari

2020-05-09, 04:26 AM

I doubt Han thought that when he got to Alderaan he'd be paid in Outer Rim coin.

It seems to me that Tatooine was conquered by the Empire which means it probably got forced to accept Imperial currency.

Vinyadan

2020-05-09, 05:44 AM

Rodin

2020-05-09, 06:40 AM

Episode 3 for me is an odd case, because Episode 2 had irked me so much, that it emotionally completely removed me from the prequels. So I didn't care at all for what would happen in 3, especially since it was a foregone conclusion. I have very little memory of it, in spite of having watched it recently, too; I suspect that an overcomplicated plot that gives weight to the wrong events may be the reason. The landing scene was very good, that I give. For the rest, it had all the weaknesses of the previous prequels, plus it was waaaaaay too long*. So we have scenes that drag on forever, lots of talking, the unconvincing jedi council, told-not-shown, a villain (Grievous) out of nowhere, and a bad introduction that leaves you wondering what's going on (because I think the title crawl is there to look impressive; you shouldn't be forced to read it, the OT worked fine anyway).
However, unlike ep. 2, I feel that ep. 3 can be saved by fan cuts. Ep. 2 has the whole part on the red planet which is imho irredeemable.

*apparently the length is similar to that of the other prequels, which is another reason why I find ep. 1 better than the others, as it didn't feel nearly as dragging on as ep. 2 and 3.

Revenge suffers from one of the biggest sins in film making: Requiring the audience to watch external material to understand what is going on.

Episode 2 ends on the first day of the Clone Wars. Episode 3 begins near the end of said wars. Palpatine is in the process of getting kidnapped, but the actual kidnapping happens before the movie starts. So does the attack on Coruscant, the introduction of General Grievous, and everything important for making the movie work. To get all of this information you have to watch the first Clone Wars animated series. Which you would only have seen if you were watching Cartoon Network and caught it when it was coming on in 2 minute episodes between shows.

If you didn't do that very specific thing you get a couple sentences of title crawl.

The really damning thing about the new trilogy is that it feels like there are series you are supposed to be watching between those movies to understand what's going on. As far as I'm aware, these do not exist. They just gave up the pretense and gave a couple sentences of title crawl.

jayem

2020-05-09, 08:09 AM

Revenge suffers from one of the biggest sins in film making: Requiring the audience to watch external material to understand what is going on.

Episode 2 ends on the first day of the Clone Wars. Episode 3 begins near the end of said wars. Palpatine is in the process of getting kidnapped, but the actual kidnapping happens before the movie starts. So does the attack on Coruscant, the introduction of General Grievous, and everything important for making the movie work. To get all of this information you have to watch the first Clone Wars animated series. Which you would only have seen if you were watching Cartoon Network and caught it when it was coming on in 2 minute episodes between shows.

If you didn't do that very specific thing you get a couple sentences of title crawl.

The really damning thing about the new trilogy is that it feels like there are series you are supposed to be watching between those movies to understand what's going on. As far as I'm aware, these do not exist. They just gave up the pretense and gave a couple sentences of title crawl.

I read the book before watching the film (admittedly in a non-local library and rather rushed), which probably helped. I did enjoy it.

Regarding the review:
In my opinion the review is another notch better. Although still probably nearer the good comment mark than a good review. For starters the English grammar is still a bit ropey (but much better than say my French*) and it could have done with improvements to the structure. After that there is more depth you can go into (I have some thoughts for E7).

On the earlier post, I'm pretty sure Jango is explicitly chosen as one of a kind, in universe "perfect soldier", in novel "[Obi wan wondered] who was this man selected by Sifo-Dyas as the perfect source for a clone army". Obviously nobody is perfect, just occasionally close to it (sorry Pellee) and being a villain in a film is huge impediment to success. So I think that is right enough.

*and even as a native english speaker/writer, I can often be unclear on these boards.

Vinyadan

2020-05-09, 08:54 AM

Bartmanhomer

2020-05-09, 11:24 AM

Ok, now I'm going to post the original sequel Star Wars Episode 4: A New Hope.

Princess Leia held hostage by the cruel Darth Vader in order to quell the rebellion against the Galactic Empire. Luke Skywalker and Han Solo, captain of the Millennium Falcon with the help of their droids, C-3PO and R2-D2 and the Wookie Chewbacca and Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi. They were on a rescue mission to save Princess Leia and the whole universe. What I like about the movie is the good storyline. The Special Effect was Good. They introduced Stormtroopers. I even like the part when Luke destroyed the Death Star with his X-Wing. What I don't like about the movie that Darth Vader kills Obi-Wan Kenobi. This is a very good movie and I really enjoy it. I'll give A New Hope 9 out of 10. :smile:

The Glyphstone

2020-05-09, 12:25 PM

Bartmanhomer

2020-05-09, 12:34 PM

Bartmanhomer, you say didn't like how Obi-Wan Kenobi died. Do you think it would have been better if he died a different way, like fighting back against Darth Vader? Why do you think George Lucas wrote the story to have Obi-Wan die there?

I actually like Obi-Wan Kenobi. He shouldn't have given up that easy to make a martyr out of himself. :frown:

Vinyadan

2020-05-09, 12:53 PM

Fun fact: you can see a lightsaber prop as it would look without aftereffects here: https://youtu.be/Yrj03H4V1n4?t=34 see Vader's white stick in the background?

Peelee

2020-05-09, 12:57 PM

Fun fact: you can see a lightsaber prop as it would look without aftereffects here: https://youtu.be/Yrj03H4V1n4?t=34 see Vader's white stick in the background?

Actually, that's not the prop, that's messed up rotoscoping in the original cuts, which makes the blade appear white instead of red. The actual prop blade was not white, IIRC.

Vinyadan

2020-05-09, 01:06 PM

Actually, that's not the prop, that's messed up rotoscoping in the original cuts, which makes the blade appear white instead of red. The actual prop blade was not white, IIRC.
It was "a rotating pole with movie screen material". Later on, they used different materials. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIefj6dOhnM

Bartmanhomer

2020-05-10, 11:16 AM

Ok now I'm going to post Star Wars Episode 5: Empire Strikes Back.

After the events of A New Hope The Rebel Alliance fight against the Imperial Forces in the planet Hoth by their AT-AT Walkers. Luke Skywalker visit to the planet Dagabra to search for Yoda the ways of the Forces. Then Luke fought against Darth Vader in Cloud City. This movie was great. What I like about this movie it has a great storyline. The Original Music Score was awesome. In this movie, they introduce Lando Calrissian. And the most dramatic part of the movie reveals that Darth Vader is Luke Skywalker father. There was not one thing that I dislike this movie. The acting was wonderful. So is the directing and special effects. It's a perfect movie. I'll give Empire Strikes Back a 10 out of 10. :biggrin:

Vinyadan

2020-05-10, 09:48 PM

I really, really, really liked both ep. iv and Empire Strikes Back. Back then, the one thing that puzzled me a bit was Ben's death. Not because he died -- he made it clear that he would transcend and become a saint -- but because of why he decided to die at that time instead of sometime else. That is a detail for which I only recently found a satisfying explanation, the fact that he was embroiled in a duel he probably wouldn't win and that the youngsters would have been captured if they waited for him to take off, so he cut it short for their sake.

Otherwise, everything is wonderful. It's movies that feel old-fashioned, but, instead of being antiquated, end up speaking a universal language. I especially like how the Empire is presented, first with an immense ship gobbling up a smaller one like a shark with a goldfish, then with a huge black-clad half-samurai half-Nazi human-robot guy that kills POWs barehanded, then with Leia saying that the Empire is losing pieces because of a misplaced emphasis on a tight grip, and finally with the end of the Senate and blowing up a planet.

This pretty much presents the whole of the setting, with a short history added by Ben that affirms that there is an alternative to the Empire. I feel that later films forgot to set up the pieces adequately, what with political systems in ep.1 or the lack of explanation concerning what the Order is fighting against, or where it even comes from, and whether resistance and republic are the same thing.

The Hot battle, I think, shows a problem with its parallel at the beginning of 8. In Hot, we have some highly impressive yet unlikely mechanised horses or dogs advancing at slow pace towards the rebel base. In 8, we have some highly unlikely bombers advancing at low speed over a battleship.
Why do the AT-AT work anyway within the film? Because they remain deadly. The rebels have nothing that works against them, except rope and a jedi, and there aren't enough ropes and jedi around, so the walkers win. They would look wasteful in our world, but in theirs they are terrifying (and they are both cool and symbolic, being invulnerable except to guile and stomping everything that gets within reach).
The bombers instead are a flawed design AND get smashed because of it. As a result, they look so bad that they don't just strain belief for the fact that they were used, it's hard to believe that they exist in the first place, which undercuts Poe's failing and much of the following plot line.

If the film shows the events in chronological order, then the bombers are much slower than B-29s and fly very low, about 100 m above the target. The slowness is very perceivable, and one can only wonder what their purpose was: dropping barrel bombs on undefended casinos?
And, if the bombs use gravity within the ship to get pushed down, won't they all reach different speeds, since they will spend different amounts of time subjected to gravity, thus hitting each other once outside the ship? Is that why they have to fly low?

Bartmanhomer

2020-05-11, 01:10 AM

I'm going to post Star Wars Episode 6: Return Of The Jedi later today. :smile:

jayem

2020-05-11, 07:27 AM

I'm going to post Star Wars Episode 6: Return Of The Jedi later today. :smile:
Put some time in it, how has Luke, Han and Leia changed, stayed the same? What things are now improved FX wise

Bartmanhomer

2020-05-11, 12:09 PM

Ok, now I'm going to post Star Wars Episode 6: Return Of The Jedi.Luke Skywalker battles Jabba The Hutt and Darth Vader to save his comrades in the Rebel Alliance to disrupted the Galatic Empire in order to win the war. Han Solo and Princess Leia reaffirm their love and with the help of Wookie Chewbacca, the droids C-3PO, Lando Calrissian and the Ewoks, they managed to win the war and gain peace to the Universe. What I like about the Return Of The Jedi that they more the Death Star incomplete and more powerful than the first Death Star. There was a bit of romance with Princess Leia and Han Solo. Also, I like the part where Darth Vader throws Emperor Palpatine to the abyss where Darth Vader because good again. I also like at the end of the movie the spirits of the three Jedi Master appears for a short time. Also, I like the part where the Ewoks primitive traps smash the AT Walker. There was not one thing that I dislike the movie. The special effects were great. The acting and directing were superb. This movie was perfect to end the original trilogy. So I'll give Return Of The Jedi 10 out of 10. :biggrin:

Vinyadan

2020-05-11, 12:31 PM

How did the spirit of Darth Vader look? Young or old?

Bartmanhomer

2020-05-11, 12:33 PM

How did the spirit of Darth Vader look? Young or old?

From the original, he looks old. From the remastered version, he looks young. :smile:

Peelee

2020-05-11, 12:46 PM

From the original, he looks old. From the remastered version, he looks young. :smile:

Which version are you reviewing?

Bartmanhomer

2020-05-11, 02:04 PM

Which version are you reviewing?

The original. :biggrin:

Vinyadan

2020-05-11, 02:54 PM

Peelee

2020-05-11, 02:57 PM

Cool, I like it best, probably because it's the first one I watched.

It used to be my favorite when I was younger, as I got older I realized I liked the OG more and more, to the point that now it's my fave.

Bartmanhomer

2020-05-11, 03:15 PM

Cool, I like it best, probably because it's the first one I watched.

Do you have any thoughts about the OT in general, why you like it so much? And what target do you think it has, I mean, what sort of people would like it? Or is it for a very wide audience?

The original trilogy is nostalgic. It's an instant classic to my childhood. :smile:

Ok, now I'm going to post Star Wars Episode 7: The Force Awakens.

Many years after the events of the Return Of The Jedi, Rey, Finn, Poe, Han Solo are searching for the disappearance of Luke Skywalker which they're fighting by General Leia and the veterans of the Rebel Alliance who are against the First Order the successor of the Galatic Empire. What I like about the movie that they introduced new characters such as Rey, Finn, Poe, Kylo-Ren, BB2 and old favourites, Han, Leia, Chewbacca, C-3PO and R2-D2. The only thing that I didn't like about the Force Awakens where Kylo-Ren kills Han Solo. I was like "what are you serious?" Kylo-Ren kills his own father. That part I didn't like. Although I did like the special effect, acting and directing. So I said it was a pretty good movie. I'll give The Force Awakens an 8 out of 10. :smile:

Ok, now I'm going to post Star Wars Episode 8: The Last Jedi. Luke Skywalker solitary ended when he met a young woman named Rey which, Luke trained her the ways of the Force. Meanwhile, Kylo Ren and General Aux made an all-out assault against General Leia and the Rebel Alliance to reach supremacy by the First Order. What I like about The Last Jedi is that Rey and Kylo-Ren join forces to fight the First Order for a short period of the time. There was not the one thing that I disliked the movie. I like the special effects, acting and directing. It was a perfect movie. I'll give The Last Jedi 10 out of 10. :smile:

Ok, now I'm going to post Star Wars Episode 9: The Rise Of Skywalker.

When the Resistance discovered that Emperor Palpatine didn't die at the hands of Darth Vader, they race against time to know his whereabouts. Finn and Poe lead the Resistance in order to stop the First Order to form a new empire while Rey confronts Kylo Ren for the final showdown. What I like about The Rise Of Skywalker is there was a romantic scene of Rey kissed Kylo Ren and they work together to put an end of Emperor Palpatine. What I also like that the whole universe joins together to put an end of the First Order. There was not one thing that I dislike the movie. I like the special effects, directing and acting. So I say it was a very good movie to conclude the Star Wars: The Skywalker Saga. So I'll give The Rise Of Skywalker a 10 out of 10. :biggrin:

Keltest

2020-05-14, 02:55 PM

Just watched AotC myself, and oh my god had I forgotten just how dumb Anakin is in this. Not just the bad writing, but the actual character is a moron. Why do they let him go anywhere without supervision?

Watching Yoda flip around was fun though. Its very Star Wars.

Also, something I don't see a lot of people comment on, Darth Sideous does not get listed in the credits.

Vinyadan

2020-05-14, 04:04 PM

While I liked the films, I think that the ST had some evident weaknesses. One is that it didn't put any effort in setting up the scene. I have no idea about who the 1st Order are, or the general status of the Republic. The other one was that it relied a lot on being meant for children, and so had some illogical scenarios that were very positive for Rey, like meeting BBQ and Finn AND having the Falcon right there AND being adopted by Han Solo AND helped by the Orange Alien AND turning out strong enough to resist and use the Force on Keylo. This ends up disassembling any feeling of danger, and probably ruined the fighting compared to the OT and PT (just to make a couple examples, the duels in the forest in 7 and Keylo getting beaten up by the knights in 9: those aren't sticks, they are blades and lasers!).

8 has its own problems, like two useless plotlines (Poe and Finn), a childish approach to big problems (only weapons make you rich! Not fuel! And absolutely NOT CINEMA! :smallbiggrin: ), and the bloody bombers. I liked Rey's story and the trippy moments, however, as well as the scenery, and I like that they were carried over into 9.

I know there is some sort of hate or mistrust towards 9, but I liked it. It picked up everything it could and brought it to a coherent end, in spite of 8 seemingly hinting to a finale that would take a whole generation to be possible. It accepted that Rey had been portrayed like a tank and rolled with it. It made the temptation of the Dark Side far clearer than it was in 6. I didn't find that the finale made much sense (unless she read too much and took Ben's surname), and it's a pity that the final battle relies on a gimmick.

About actors, they picked some very good ones, with Adam Driver obviously having already undergone a great breakthrough, and Daisy Ridley and John Boyega also deserving one. However, I think they completely screwed up with Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher. Luke did have a role, although controversial, but Han and Leia ended up as some kind of puppet figures of reverence that we were supposed to be awed by just seeing them. The truth is, in this trilogy, they were pretty damn boring, same goes for Lando. I wonder, if they had had the chance to film more with Carrie Fisher, maybe I would have had another mind.

Iskar Jarak

2020-05-14, 07:16 PM

In fairness to the oddly-named Rise of Skywalker, it couldn't reasonably have been very good. But equally, it didn't really feel like Abrams even tried. To some extent, the experience of watching a film at home is different than watching it in the cinema; it's easier to get caught up in the moment at the cinema. I watched this thing at home. It lurched between dull and laughable.

The Force Awakens is contrived and nonsensical, but Rise of Skywalker is on another level altogether. Take the scene where Chewie is captured. Rey has a feeling (ingenious writing, works every time) and wanders off. The side characters on Dagger-Map's ship send Chewie to tell Rey to come back. But some Knights of Ren are there! Chewie gets captured and loaded onto an Imperial transport nearby -- which flew in with no-one noticing (?). Chewie gets captured off-screen. Then the Knights of Ren and the Imperials leave without doing anything else (?). Rey destroys the transport. Later it turns that was another transport chilling in the desert that also landed and left immediately (?). I don't know what it was like in the cinema, but this was immensely confusing to watch. Not just in the "What a coincidence!" way, but also in the "I have no idea what these people are doing" way. Almost every scene was like this.

There are so many bizarre decisions. With something like the "Hobbit" "films", stapling on Tauriel and her attendant love triangle on was transparently studio meddling, whereas with Rise of Skywalker I don't understand why these decisions were made. Did someone actually think that Final Order sounded cool, or is it a joke? I don't understand why there were so many McGuffins. I don't understand why force-healing is a thing now (I can't concieve of a good narrative or thematic reason for it). I don't understand why Kylo and Rey kissed. I don't know who thought framing the scene so it looked like the kiss killed Kylo was a good idea (it was funny, albeit probably unintentionally). Why did no edit-y people take that scene out back and shoot it in the head?

I don't think the Palpatine stuff in Rise of Skywalker works as well as in RotJ. Firstly, we've already seen this. Unless you hate ewoks and love inept exposition, you're probably still better off watching RotJ. Secondly, I think the Dark Side possession stuff completely misses the mark. It reads like, "If you do this bad (?) thing, you'll be possessed by bad people and do more bad things!", which isn't really compelling material. Or is killing Palps only bad in RoS because it doesn't kill him? I struggle to understand the message here. (If Palps shanked himself, would he possess himself?) Then Rey kills Palps anyway, but her lightsabres make a cross which stops Palps possessing her? I give up. In fairness, I don't think Lucas' Dark Side works great either, but I can at least tell what he was trying to say.

The actors deserved better material than they got. ("I am all the Jedi!") Disney really dropped the ball with Star Wars and it's just quite disappointing. It could have been a return to form but it just... wasn't.

Dire_Flumph

2020-05-14, 08:13 PM

I think Rise of Skywalker could have still been good, even with the problems of the prior two movies. It wastes most of it's time on a relic hunt that turns out to be a total waste of time because they just grab an identical relic from Kylo Ren's ship later. The line "That's not a fleet, that's just people" should have been the capper to this whole trilogy. It should have gone from "There's no one coming" in TLJ to travelling and inspiring people in RoS. Giving us a reason for everyone showing up at the end rather than making us think that the movie should have been following Lando the whole time instead. What if they realize that Palp's plan hinges on Rey turning up and....she doesn't. They figure out that's what he needs, so Poe, Finn, Rose, or hell even 3PO is the one to go and undo his plans and stop him and Rey helps to stop the FO ships instead. It would be a great pivot for the whole movie (and retroactively the new trilogy) to be about the people of the galaxy deciding that they are not going to be the pawns in a neverending war between two factions of space wizards and putting an end to this.

InvisibleBison

2020-05-14, 08:42 PM

I don't think the Palpatine stuff in Rise of Skywalker works as well as in RotJ. Firstly, we've already seen this. Unless you hate ewoks and love inept exposition, you're probably still better off watching RotJ. Secondly, I think the Dark Side possession stuff completely misses the mark. It reads like, "If you do this bad (?) thing, you'll be possessed by bad people and do more bad things!", which isn't really compelling material. Or is killing Palps only bad in RoS because it doesn't kill him? I struggle to understand the message here. (If Palps shanked himself, would he possess himself?) Then Rey kills Palps anyway, but her lightsabres make a cross which stops Palps possessing her? I give up. In fairness, I don't think Lucas' Dark Side works great either, but I can at least tell what he was trying to say.

In addition to all of this, the movie doesn't provide any clear reason for us to think that Palpatine is any more dead at the end of RoS than he was at the end of RotJ.

Bartmanhomer

2020-05-14, 08:51 PM

In addition to all of this, the movie doesn't provide any clear reason for us to think that Palpatine is any more dead at the end of RoS than he was at the end of RotJ.

Palpatine is Nerull the deity of the undead. :tongue:

dancrilis

2020-05-14, 09:53 PM

In addition to all of this, the movie doesn't provide any clear reason for us to think that Palpatine is any more dead at the end of RoS than he was at the end of RotJ.

The trilogy works a lot better if you accept the following.
1. Palpatine was never defeated - he liked conquering the galaxy, but ruling it was boring so he arranged a way to disappear so he could go back to enjoying himself.
2. Palpatine realised that his true passion was not conquering the galaxy - but trolling people while pretending to conquer the galaxy.
3. Anything that doesn't make sense is Palpatine merely lying, using illusions to trick the audience, or using the force over great distances to mess with people.

Why did Rey have such a strong connection to the force - she didn't that was Palpatine tricking everyone.
Why did people see a laser destroy planets in real time in different systems - the laser didn't destroy anything it was a force illusion mixed with mind trick.
Why did Rey get chosen by Palpatine to be the one he messed with - he rolled on a table after consulting some source books on the galaxy.
Where did Palpatine's fleet come from 1) nowhere that was an illusion, or 2) from the completely fine republic navy yard that people thought was destroyed.
Why didn't the first order light speed in front of the escaping resistance ship and shoot it - they are idiots.
Why are they idiots - Palpatine found it funnier that way.
Why didn't Luke stay around to help people - he knew that Palpatine was out there and unbeatable and so avoiding the situation seemed the only sane approach.
Why did Luke then get involved - 1) he realised Palpatine was right and that he could mess with people too, or 2) he didn't they never found Luke that was Palpatine messing with people.
Was Rey really Palpatine's granddaughter - no that was a lie.
Why did he lie - he thought it was funny.
Did he die at the end? - no he threw up an illusion and walked away to consider his next wacky hijinks.
What did that illusion cover? - who knows, but possibly a lot.

The entire trilogy works better if viewed throught this light and all things can be explained by it.

Rodin

2020-05-15, 01:07 AM

While I liked the films, I think that the ST had some evident weaknesses. One is that it didn't put any effort in setting up the scene. I have no idea about who the 1st Order are, or the general status of the Republic. The other one was that it relied a lot on being meant for children, and so had some illogical scenarios that were very positive for Rey, like meeting BBQ and Finn AND having the Falcon right there AND being adopted by Han Solo AND helped by the Orange Alien AND turning out strong enough to resist and use the Force on Keylo. This ends up disassembling any feeling of danger, and probably ruined the fighting compared to the OT and PT (just to make a couple examples, the duels in the forest in 7 and Keylo getting beaten up by the knights in 9: those aren't sticks, they are blades and lasers!).

To be fair, A New Hope has some of the same problems. The entire trilogy doesn't happen if Uncle Owen didn't happen to need a droid that day, or if the droid he bought didn't spontaneously combust. Obi Wan just happens to be living around the corner from Luke, and Luke knows who he is despite Obi Wan being a hermit and Luke being a country bumpkin. How many people in your neighborhood do you know by name? Han happens to be in the bar when they are. The Death Star has destroyed Alderaan but is still loitering in the area when the Falcon arrives - without that, Leia doesn't get rescued. I'm sure there's more.

I'm not saying TFA should be forgiven for those scenarios, but it isn't as horrible a crime as it's made out to be. There's a lot about the OT that is illogical in ways favorable to our heroes, but we forgive those because the OT is so good. The sequel trilogy is merely passable (verging into bad at times) and so the flaws are much more heavily criticized.

I was thinking about the OT this morning for unrelated reasons, and I've steadily been coming to a realization. Empire Strikes Back is actually my least favorite of the OT. I'm sure part of this is down to the age I was when I watched Return - I was at the age when the Ewoks were cool and not "kiddy". I was genuinely surprised the first time I heard how well regarded Empire was, as Return had all my favorite scenes and lines. Further re-watching has only solidified this opinion - Empire has the great Darth Vader reveal and not much else. I don't remember how I felt watching that scene, so it's very possible that I already knew going in. That would kind of spoil the effect. There's no giant space battle, and I love me a giant space battle. A New Hope combined two things I love - the Hero's Journey and a WWII style impossible bombing mission. Return had swashbuckling adventure (the Jabba's palace rescue) along with another impossible mission. The scenes in the throne room from Return defined my childhood in a way that Empire didn't.

Empire is still a very good film, and Return doesn't work without it. It's just up against some very stiff competition.

Iskar Jarak

2020-05-15, 06:01 AM

I think Rise of Skywalker could have still been good, even with the problems of the prior two movies...

Alas, alas. Trevorrow's script, at least, understood the "inspiring the galaxy" thing. However, that kind of thinking would require the creative blackhole euphemistically called "J.J Abrams" to not suck as much. All he can be bothered to do is regurgitate the superficial elements of whatever he's plagiarising.

...I'm not saying TFA should be forgiven for those scenarios, but it isn't as horrible a crime as it's made out to be. There's a lot about the OT that is illogical in ways favorable to our heroes, but we forgive those because the OT is so good. The sequel trilogy is merely passable (verging into bad at times) and so the flaws are much more heavily criticized.

I was thinking about the OT this morning for unrelated reasons, and I've steadily been coming to a realization. Empire Strikes Back is actually my least favorite of the OT. I'm sure part of this is down to the age I was when I watched Return - I was at the age when the Ewoks were cool and not "kiddy". I was genuinely surprised the first time I heard how well regarded Empire was, as Return had all my favorite scenes and lines. Further re-watching has only solidified this opinion - Empire has the great Darth Vader reveal and not much else. I don't remember how I felt watching that scene, so it's very possible that I already knew going in. That would kind of spoil the effect. There's no giant space battle, and I love me a giant space battle. A New Hope combined two things I love - the Hero's Journey and a WWII style impossible bombing mission. Return had swashbuckling adventure (the Jabba's palace rescue) along with another impossible mission. The scenes in the throne room from Return defined my childhood in a way that Empire didn't.

Empire is still a very good film, and Return doesn't work without it. It's just up against some very stiff competition.

You're clearly not familiar with the saga of Skippy, the Jedi droid. He solves all the problems with ANH, all of them. It makes perfect sense now. More seriously, I think a major difference between ANH and TFA is when they employ their contrivances. ANH mostly uses them to get the ball rolling. Meanwhile, in TFA Rey is loose and sneaking around in the First Order base and Finn and Co. are cruising in to blow the whole thing apart. This is drama. And then they just run into each other. The characters don't do anything clever, Abrams just shuffles the pieces to get the set-up he wants.
Another point of note here is that they don't need Han in particular, they just need a ship. Han is simply the pilot they got and at that point, there's nothing special about him. They could just have easily gotten Dave the pilot. Meanwhile, in TFA, Rey needs a ship so she just happens to get the Millennium Falcon in particular.

Some amount of the complaints are, I think, because people want to explain their dislike for a movie so they pick something tangible to complain about, while the real problems are deeper. Solo is a good example. It is, at best, dull. That droid is a hideous character, but even if you cut it out of the movie, it still wouldn't be good. Larger problems stem from how Solo doesn't have an arc in that film, but that isn't so hideously visible as that droid and so it catches less flack.

To Lucas' credit, he does know how to pander to children. RotJ was a favourite of my childhood even though it doesn't hold up so well now. ESB establishes a lot that we take for granted with Star Wars. A proper lightsabre fight? Yoda? Fabulously impractical walkers?
ESB is less 'flashy' than RotJ, but it sets the stage for it really well. The heroes pretty much lose. It isn't 'delightful', but it makes for a satisfying and memorable story. It also has less story defects (read: ewoks) than other entries in the Star Wars saga. There isn't a single scene that makes me think, "Why wasn't this rubbish cut?" ESB wasn't my favourite growing up, but I can certainly appreciate it more now.

Peelee

2020-05-15, 09:20 AM

To be fair, A New Hope has some of the same problems. The entire trilogy doesn't happen if Uncle Owen didn't happen to need a droid that day, or if the droid he bought didn't spontaneously combust. Obi Wan just happens to be living around the corner from Luke, and Luke knows who he is despite Obi Wan being a hermit and Luke being a country bumpkin. How many people in your neighborhood do you know by name? Han happens to be in the bar when they are. The Death Star has destroyed Alderaan but is still loitering in the area when the Falcon arrives - without that, Leia doesn't get rescued. I'm sure there's more.

Firstly, the introduction of a story gets more leeway here. Even more so when it was a standalone story, and the characters didn't all have pre-existing ties to each other that we find out later. And finally...

The Lars are farmers, who tend to know most of their neighbors despite said neighbors living quite a distance away, largely due to necessity for assistance in communications/travel/emergencies.

Han is nobody to them, he's just the pilot they found in the bar. Even with all the Canon currently, there was nothing special about Han when they picked him up; he was a pilot in a cantina known for having pilots while Ben and Luke were looking for a pilot. That is practically the antithesis of the point you want to make here.

The Death Star has nowhere to go immediately; the only other potential target was Dantooine, which Tarkin had described as "too remote", and they had also already sent scouts/spies to determine the veracity of Leia's claims.

Bavarian itP

2020-05-15, 10:02 AM

Empire has the great Darth Vader reveal and not much else

Star Wars has the great Darth Vader reveal and not much else. Seriously, that one scene, from "there is no escape" to "No ... I am your father" pretty much pulls the weight for all six Star Wars movies.

Peelee

2020-05-15, 10:03 AM

Star Wars has the great Darth Vader reveal and not much else. Seriously, that one scene, from "there is no escape" to "No ... I am your father" pretty much pulls the weight for all six Star Wars movies.

And here my whole life I thought the first movie was a massive phenomenon and cultural landmark that took the entire nation by storm. :smallwink:

Iskar Jarak

2020-05-15, 11:01 AM

I really like ANH and I don't think it gets enough credit. It did a great job of blending the familiar and the new. The way it handles exposition is delightful -- ANH establishes the Star Wars universe so deftly. The bombing run does a wonderful job of creating tension and we get the culmination of Luke and Han's character arcs. I could go on about everything ANH does well (practically everything). It isn't a particularly innovative or complex story, but it is a well-told one. It's elegant; complexity and obfuscation do not equal quality and ANH understands that. It's the kind of storytelling that's the hallmark of classics.

GrayDeath

2020-05-15, 03:09 PM

The trilogy works a lot better if you accept the following.
1. Palpatine was never defeated - he liked conquering the galaxy, but ruling it was boring so he arranged a way to disappear so he could go back to enjoying himself.
2. Palpatine realised that his true passion was not conquering the galaxy - but trolling people while pretending to conquer the galaxy.
3. Anything that doesn't make sense is Palpatine merely lying, using illusions to trick the audience, or using the force over great distances to mess with people.

Why did Rey have such a strong connection to the force - she didn't that was Palpatine tricking everyone.
Why did people see a laser destroy planets in real time in different systems - the laser didn't destroy anything it was a force illusion mixed with mind trick.
Why did Rey get chosen by Palpatine to be the one he messed with - he rolled on a table after consulting some source books on the galaxy.
Where did Palpatine's fleet come from 1) nowhere that was an illusion, or 2) from the completely fine republic navy yard that people thought was destroyed.
Why didn't the first order light speed in front of the escaping resistance ship and shoot it - they are idiots.
Why are they idiots - Palpatine found it funnier that way.
Why didn't Luke stay around to help people - he knew that Palpatine was out there and unbeatable and so avoiding the situation seemed the only sane approach.
Why did Luke then get involved - 1) he realised Palpatine was right and that he could mess with people too, or 2) he didn't they never found Luke that was Palpatine messing with people.
Was Rey really Palpatine's granddaughter - no that was a lie.
Why did he lie - he thought it was funny.
Did he die at the end? - no he threw up an illusion and walked away to consider his next wacky hijinks.
What did that illusion cover? - who knows, but possibly a lot.

The entire trilogy works better if viewed throught this light and all things can be explained by it.

That post really made me cackle far too loudly.

Thank you!

Fyraltari

2020-05-15, 05:33 PM

The Lars are farmers, who tend to know most of their neighbors despite said neighbors living quite a distance away, largely due to necessity for assistance in communications/travel/emergencies..

Also Ben is actually a former brother-in-arms of Luke’s dead dad and had been trying to get Luke to follow in his footsteps which is why Owen basically orders Luke to stay away from him and tries to discredit him in his eyes.

137beth

2020-05-15, 10:23 PM

Since I recently watched the sequel trilogy (a bit more than a month ago), I think I'll post my thoughts on it here.

Episode VII, on the whole, I found to be pretty bland and forgettable. As I've gotten older, I've found less and less appeal in watching fight scenes in movies. I have some appreciation for scenes where the actors actually do some fight choreography, but the space battles where they are just sitting in chairs in front of a green screen seem rather boring to me. I realize that maybe this means the franchise that's all about spaceships shooting at each other isn't for me.

I liked Rey and Finn, but I had trouble caring about the other new characters. The film leans really heavily on copying the plot of another movie that wasn't notable for its plot, and the result is a forgettable storyline.

One aspect I did like about this movie (prior to watching Episode IX, anyhow) was that it showed us some villains who were skilled with the Dark Side, but who weren't Sith, or (as far as we know from just Episode VII) controlled by the Sith. If the Force really permeates all living things in the galaxy, then there should be more interpretations of the Force than just the two religions we see in most of the movies. The galaxy really starts to feel small when every villain comes from a single organization that only has two members at a time.

Episode VIII was my favorite of the trilogy by a fair margin. The scenes between Rey, Luke, Kylo, and Snoke were some of my favorites in the Skywalker Saga. Luke's final words to Kylo were, I thought, a great way to send him off.

On the other hand, I did think the movie was overly long for the story it told. And I didn't care at all about the Poe-mutiny subplot. From the position of an armchair director, I'd say they could have fixed both of those problems by simply cutting all of the mutiny subplot. Seriously, it doesn't actually add anything to the story of Rey, Kylo, and The Last Jedi. Although cutting out the mutiny scenes would also reduce Finn to a bit part, which probably would have bothered me too.

I also want to talk about the scene which totally destroys all established lore in the Star Wars galaxy and creates a gaping plot hole in almost every combat from the original trilogy. I am speaking, of course, about the time that the ghost of Yoda is able to physically touch Luke. Can all force ghosts touch physical objects? I don't remember that happening in the OT, but it's been just over a decade since I watched it so maybe I just forgot about it. If Yoda can touch a physical person, could he hold a lightsaber? If so, why wasn't Obi-Wan helping the rebels fight during ESB and RotJ?

I also heard that there were some forumites who were bothered by Holdo ramming a ship at hyperspeed, and thought it invalidated all previous space combats. That didn't really bother me, because the movie shows that Holdo's ship is completely destroyed, while the ship she is attacking is not destroyed. We know it isn't destroyed because Hux was on board and wasn't killed. The implication seemed to be that when two ships collide at hyperspeed, the bigger ship wins. Since the bad guys in Star Wars almost always have bigger ships than the good guys, it seemed obvious to me why the rebels don't usually use that method of attack.

By contrast, in A New Hope, Luke uses an x-wing (much smaller than Holdo's ship) to completely destroy the Death Star (much bigger than Hux's ship), killing everyone on-board in the process. And Luke did it without any damage to his ship or the cost of his own life.

Now, I do think that the hyperspeed ramming scene was bad, but for a completely different reason. It prolonged an already-too-long fight scene, it wasn't interesting to watch, and it didn't do anything to advance the story. Before Holdo jumps to light-speed, the FO out-numbers the rebels and the rebels are being killed off as they retreat. After Holdo jumps to light-speed, the FO out-numbers the rebels and the rebels are being killed off as they retreat. You could have cut that scene and it wouldn't have taken anything away from the movie. It doesn't invalidate the rest of the series, but it doesn't add anything either.

Episode IX might have dethroned Return of the Jedi as my least favorite Star Wars movie. I say "might," because it's been a bit more than ten years since I watched the OT. I've changed as a person I'll start with the first thing that bothered me: Kylo Ren ought to have been the main villain of the final film. If not Kylo, then Snoke. Oh, what's that? You say Snoke couldn't be the villain of Episode IX because he died in a previous film? Well so did Palpatine!

Kylo ended the previous film killing his former master and asserting his dominance over the First Order. The fact that he would immediately agree to become the underling of yet another villain completely undoes the development he got over the course of TLJ.

After that we get a dull series of fetch quests, where the protagonists need to get a knife so that they can get a Wayfinder so that they can find the planet where Palpatine is hiding. Except they don't actually need the knife because C-3PO has its content stored in his memory. Except they actually do need it because Rey can sense using the Force that they still need it to locate the Wayfinder. Except actually they don't need it because there's another Wayfinder that's much easier to find. At least that's what I remember a month after watching, did I get all of that right?

And while Yoda in the previous movie raised some questions by physically touching Luke, Luke's Force Ghost is even more powerful. Not only can he still hold a lightsaber, but he can still use telekinesis to lift his old ship. It's like dying had no effect on him at all. Which raises the question of why Luke doesn't get in the x-wing with Rey and a laser sword and help her chop down the Sith Eternal.

But the biggest issue I had with this movie was a personal one: I couldn't actually watch the climax. Strobe lights give me a headache, and the creative team decided it would be a good idea to put constant strobe lights in Palpatine's cave. I ended up cooking while listening to the dialogue and occasionally glancing at the screen to see if the flashing had stopped.

Also, Palp's plan doesn't really make sense to me. He wanted a powerful force-user to strike him down with a lightsaber so that he can possess their body. But near the beginning of the movie, Kylo tries to kill Palpatine by striking him with a lightsaber. Why didn't Palps just let Kylo do it so that he could possess Kylo's body? He didn't even need Rey!

I've also heard some complaints about the fact that Rey does kill Palpatine, and he doesn't posses her. That at least made some sense to me. Prior to Ben showing up, Sheev says something like "the ritual begins." The impression I got was that he didn't just need Rey to kill him: he needed to be killed in a specific way. After listening to the climax, I read that the scene I couldn't watch shows her killing him by reflecting his lighting back at him, which presumably isn't the way he needed to "die" for the ritual to work.

Oh, and the movie gives us the same terrible take on redemption that RotJ gave us, with Ben replacing Anikin.

So that's my opinion on the Sequel Trilogy. One bland and forgettable movie, one decent if flawed movie, and one terrible movie.

Peelee

2020-05-15, 10:56 PM

I also heard that there were some forumites who were bothered by Holdo ramming a ship at hyperspeed, and thought it invalidated all previous space combats. That didn't really bother me, because the movie shows that Holdo's ship is completely destroyed, while the ship she is attacking is not destroyed. We know it isn't destroyed because Hux was on board and wasn't killed.

Some people who were on the Titanic lived, and yet.

Devonix

2020-05-15, 11:50 PM

Some people who were on the Titanic lived, and yet.

It's more that the Holdo manuver left a Raddius sized whole in the ship. But the ship was still functional. The only ships actually destroyed were ships smaller than the Raddius.

Fyraltari

2020-05-16, 03:11 AM

I also want to talk about the scene which totally destroys all established lore in the Star Wars galaxy and creates a gaping plot hole in almost every combat from the original trilogy. I am speaking, of course, about the time that the ghost of Yoda is able to physically touch Luke. Can all force ghosts touch physical objects? I don't remember that happening in the OT, but it's been just over a decade since I watched it so maybe I just forgot about it. If Yoda can touch a physical person, could he hold a lightsaber? If so, why wasn't Obi-Wan helping the rebels fight during ESB and RotJ?

[...]

And while Yoda in the previous movie raised some questions by physically touching Luke, Luke's Force Ghost is even more powerful. Not only can he still hold a lightsaber, but he can still use telekinesis to lift his old ship. It's like dying had no effect on him at all. Which raises the question of why Luke doesn't get in the x-wing with Rey and a laser sword and help her chop down the Sith Eternal.

I assumed that Ach-To being the location of the very first Jedi Temple was a very strong place in (the Light Side of) the Force, meaning Force Ghosts have more leeway to do stuff there. It’s also possible that Dark-Side users are such an imbalance in the Force that Force Ghosts can’t appear near them, being limited to whispering in people’s ears.

Vinyadan

2020-05-16, 06:09 AM

Star Wars has the great Darth Vader reveal and not much else. Seriously, that one scene, from "there is no escape" to "No ... I am your father" pretty much pulls the weight for all six Star Wars movies.

I think that "I love you" - "I know" worked even better, especially since it isn't just a reveal.

Or Yoda's pills of wisdom.

Peelee

2020-05-16, 08:20 AM

It's more that the Holdo manuver left a Raddius sized whole in the ship. But the ship was still functional. The only ships actually destroyed were ships smaller than the Raddius.

The Titanic was still functional for some time after it hit the iceberg, and yet.

So first, the Raddus was not as long as the Supremacy, IIRC, yet went all the way through. So it was less a Raddus-sized joke and more just tire through the whole thing. Second, the fact that it was powerful enough to destroy other capital ships that it didn't even touch means its got some weird sort of splash damage effect - my best guess is that it's caused by shrapnel from the main target, but that's some damned impressive shrapnel if true; regardless, it's a massively powerful AoE effect that shreds even heavily armored capital warships, so despite that the rest of Suprenany looked fine, I see no reason to think that most it was. And finally, the Supremacy was lost. The lights still worked, the characters lucky enough to live could still breathe for a bit, but that ship is gone. It's got a lethal blow, it's unplugged from life support, and they're just waiting out its death throes. It's dead in the water. There's a reason I'm constantly throwing out Titanic metaphors, the ship is destroyed. The fact that it didn't disintegrate like the Death Stars isn't really here or there, because that things finished.

Keltest

2020-05-16, 09:23 AM

Peelee

2020-05-16, 09:29 AM

I mean, they could ram the enemy capital ship with their own capital ship at sublight speed too for a similar effect. People don't do it because it kills your own freaking capital ship, not because it doesn't kill the enemy. They make regular missiles for attacking ships. The level of waste makes it totally ridiculous as a real battle tactic. It only worked because the resistance was losing anyway.

Oh, I completely agree. If only there existed large, massive objects readily available for free (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Asteroid_fields) that they could convert into hyperdrive missiles by strapping a computer and hyperdrive to, thereby making significantly more powerful missiles that could take down capital ships.

Keltest

2020-05-16, 09:41 AM

Oh, I completely agree. If only there existed large, massive objects readily available for free (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Asteroid_fields) that they could convert into hyperdrive missiles by strapping a computer and hyperdrive to, thereby making significantly more powerful missiles that could take down capital ships.

They already HAVE missiles though. What, are they going to strap a hyperdrive to a moon? Because that's what it would take to replicate that effect.

Rakaydos

2020-05-16, 09:49 AM

They already HAVE missiles though. What, are they going to strap a hyperdrive to a moon? Because that's what it would take to replicate that effect.

If there's one thing I want to see out of the High Republic, it's demonstrating why hyperspace ramming is such a bad idea it's considered unthinkable for the next thousand years.

Peelee

2020-05-16, 10:03 AM

They already HAVE missiles though. What, are they going to strap a hyperdrive to a moon? Because that's what it would take to replicate that effect.

Missiles cannot take down capital ships, let alone super-capital ships, which tend to show up handily in Star Wars. Also, who said anything about moons?

https://66.media.tumblr.com/a96af5442e9b2c9efa9c8eb1e0cc9ef3/tumblr_mhl4l4a7851r93xiko1_500.gifv
So an asteroid the size of the superstructure (which is a fraction the overall size of the Star Destroyer) can do that damage at a fairly slow speed, so strapping a hyperdrive to an asteroid about that size could take out any capital ship immediately, and do crazy damage at the very least to super-capital ships. Heck, imagine the Naboo having a hyperdrive asteroid when the Trade Federation attacked. They wouldn't need a vergence in the Force to save them, they could have saved themselves handily.

dancrilis

2020-05-16, 10:21 AM

The Last Jedi is garbage, unmitigated garbage.

However crashing a ship at hyperspeed into another ship can be explained (even without my earlier explanation for everything).

The galaxy has been at peace for centuries, as such the any tactics/strategy etc around actually winning conflicts have been forgotten, not thought, discounted etc - even in the Clone Wars the lead commander of both sides had no reason to bring better tactics into play for the conflict.

As such strapping a hyperdrive to an asteriod was not considered - and if it had been considered it could be discounted as a dangerous escalation which could backfire (it is a tactic that benefits the one with greater resources after all).

Of course now that it has been introduced to military thinking we can expect criminal/rebel/government organisation in the galaxy to employ it - thereby ensuring that the galaxy never knows peace amongst the stars.

Fyraltari

2020-05-16, 10:27 AM

The Titanic was still functional for some time after it hit the iceberg, and yet.

So first, the Raddus was not as long as the Supremacy, IIRC, yet went all the way through. So it was less a Raddus-sized joke and more just tire through the whole thing. Second, the fact that it was powerful enough to destroy other capital ships that it didn't even touch means its got some weird sort of splash damage effect - my best guess is that it's caused by shrapnel from the main target, but that's some damned impressive shrapnel if true; regardless, it's a massively powerful AoE effect that shreds even heavily armored capital warships, so despite that the rest of Suprenany looked fine, I see no reason to think that most it was. And finally, the Supremacy was lost. The lights still worked, the characters lucky enough to live could still breathe for a bit, but that ship is gone. It's got a lethal blow, it's unplugged from life support, and they're just waiting out its death throes. It's dead in the water. There's a reason I'm constantly throwing out Titanic metaphors, the ship is destroyed. The fact that it didn't disintegrate like the Death Stars isn't really here or there, because that things finished.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/2/2b/HoldoKamikaze.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20180411225150
Honestly the shrapnel bit only worked because all those ships are insanely close to each other, but then again it's pretty clear that nobody in Star Wars has any idea how to conduct a space battle. Then again Star wars physics be wonky.
Also, the Supremacy's artificial gravity is just fine. Looks to me like they could just seal the hull along the break and have a perfectly serviceable (if oddly-shaped) star destroyer. Th

Missiles cannot take down capital ships, let alone super-capital ships, which tend to show up handily in Star Wars.
Yes they can. Anakin just flex inside a Trade Federation ship once, fired two torpedo and the whole thing just went kabloom. And apart from Revenge of the Sith I don't remeber any capital ship having anything to stop any ennemy fighter from doing the same thing.
Also, who said anything about moons?

https://66.media.tumblr.com/a96af5442e9b2c9efa9c8eb1e0cc9ef3/tumblr_mhl4l4a7851r93xiko1_500.gifv
So an asteroid the size of the superstructure (which is a fraction the overall size of the Star Destroyer) can do that damage at a fairly slow speed, so strapping a hyperdrive to an asteroid about that size could take out any capital ship immediately, and do crazy damage at the very least to super-capital ships. Heck, imagine the Naboo having a hyperdrive asteroid when the Trade Federation attacked. They wouldn't need a vergence in the Force to save them, they could have saved themselves handily.
So there's no need for hyperdrive then? Why not just strap normal reactors to asteroids and throw those at the ennemy? Hell, just wire a basic computer in there (doesn't even need to be a droid) and ypu've got an entire fleet of kamikaze asteroids for a fraction of the cost of a noraml ffleet and without losing a single soul to the battle.

Oh, I know why. Because Star Wars battles are profundly silly. These people have antigravity for crying out loud! they should be throwing rocks at each other at relativistic speeds from half a system away and at a variety of angles not re-enact the battle of Trafalgar (a third dimension in space? What nonsense)! And who in their right mind would train an army to march in formation into sustain ennemy fire rather than carpet-bomb the ennemy from space?!

Star Wars is not military sci-fi. It has never been, battles are there to look cool and illustrate a point (the good guys are loosing/winning, character X is a badass, etc.).
It continues to puzzle me that people claim this scene breaks the canon when the canon was never whole to begin with. Why of all the things to argue about TLJ did the Internet decide to focus on this?

Keltest

2020-05-16, 10:28 AM

Peelee

2020-05-16, 10:37 AM

It smashed into the bridge. we don't know that it took down the ship, just that Star Destroyers have stupid unnecessary vulnerabilities. And heck, if it did take it down, the Executor was destroyed by an A-wing smashing into it.

We see the holoprojection of captain get frightened and duck for cover, and then disappear. Narratively, there is no reason to show an asteroid exploding against the superstructure, and the captain winking out, other than to imply the ship was destroyed in order to underscore the danger of being a capital ship in the asteroid field. The showing to match Han's telling.

Also, the First Order ships clearly do still have superstructures. And even then, the shields are the big things to overcome. The Naboo couldn't punch through the Lucrehulk's shields, the Death Star trench run couldn't be attacked with lasers because it was ray shielded, the Empire had to figure out how to combat the rebel base's shield on Hoth, the second Death Star had to have its shields offline for the Rebel fleet to do anything to it, the Executor was only taken down by A-Wing after its shields were offline, there's a clear pattern here and it's "most of the strength of defense is in shields".

And hey, we have that shot showing that even a slow-moving relatively small asteroid has enough energy to overcome the shield problem. So I really don't understand the pushback here to "make asteroid move faster".

Keltest

2020-05-16, 10:39 AM

We see the holoprojection of captain get frightened and duck for cover, and then disappear. Narratively, there is no reason to show an asteroid exploding against the superstructure, and the captain winking out, other than to imply the ship was destroyed in order to underscore the danger of being a capital ship in the asteroid field. The showing to match Han's telling.

Also, the First Order ships clearly do still have superstructures. And even then, the shields are the big things to overcome. The Naboo couldn't punch through the Lucrehulk's shields, the Death Star trench run couldn't be attacked with lasers because it was ray shielded, the Empire had to figure out how to combat the rebel base's shield on Hoth, the second Death Star had to have its shields offline for the Rebel fleet to do anything to it, the Executor was only taken down by A-Wing after its shields were destroyed, there's a clear pattern here and it's "most of the strength of defense is in shields".

And hey, we have that shot showing that even a slow-moving relatively small asteroid has enough energy to overcome the shield problem. So I really don't understand the pushback here to "make asteroid move faster".

Because they already have missiles! Ones with advanced guidance systems that can be carried on ships, and that explode when they hit the target for a lot of damage! Where is the advantage to using asteroids?

Peelee

2020-05-16, 10:43 AM

Because they already have missiles! Ones with advanced guidance systems that can be carried on ships, and that explode when they hit the target for a lot of damage! Where is the advantage to using asteroids?

OK, so we have established that they have missiles. We have established that the missiles are not strong enough to take down large ships, which show up with incredibly frequency (the Death Star is a notable exception, but with that we have a very detailed and specific explanation of why it is an exception).

So I really don't understand why "have stronger missiles" is met with "they already have missiles!" Yes. They have missiles which cannot destroy large ships. They could make missiles which can destroy large ships. The fact that they have missiles which cannot destroy large ships seems entirely irrelevant to the issue, unless you want to argue that they should deliberately fight ineffectively for some reason I cannot unearth.

Keltest

2020-05-16, 10:58 AM

OK, so we have established that they have missiles. We have established that the missiles are not strong enough to take down large ships, which show up with incredibly frequency (the Death Star is a notable exception, but with that we have a very detailed and specific explanation of why it is an exception).

So I really don't understand why "have stronger missiles" is met with "they already have missiles!" Yes. They have missiles which cannot destroy large ships. They could make missiles which can destroy large ships. The fact that they have missiles which cannot destroy large ships seems entirely irrelevant to the issue, unless you want to argue that they should deliberately fight ineffectively for some reason I cannot unearth.

No, we actually haven't established that their missiles aren't sufficient at all. Proton torpedoes are specifically designed to deal large amounts of damage to shielded, important targets, just as an example, and while they technically aren't "missiles" they are proof that they already have payloads capable of considerable damage. So what would using asteroids bring to the table except for a change in ship design that adds extra armor to the bridge?

Rakaydos

2020-05-16, 11:03 AM

OK, so we have established that they have missiles. We have established that the missiles are not strong enough to take down large ships, which show up with incredibly frequency (the Death Star is a notable exception, but with that we have a very detailed and specific explanation of why it is an exception).

So I really don't understand why "have stronger missiles" is met with "they already have missiles!" Yes. They have missiles which cannot destroy large ships. They could make missiles which can destroy large ships. The fact that they have missiles which cannot destroy large ships seems entirely irrelevant to the issue, unless you want to argue that they should deliberately fight ineffectively for some reason I cannot unearth.

Where are you getting that an asteroid is stronger than a missile? Enough missiles have always been a route to take down shields, and enough asteroids can do the same, even if the asteroids are significantly WEAKER than the missiles.

It's not that one asteroid is a significant threat to a shielded target. It's that going INTO an asteroid field, where you are inevitably going to run into thousands of the things, is a stupid idea that gets ships killed.

Peelee

2020-05-16, 11:07 AM

No, we actually haven't established that their missiles aren't sufficient at all. Proton torpedoes are specifically designed to deal large amounts of damage to shielded, important targets, just as an example, and while they technically aren't "missiles" they are proof that they already have payloads capable of considerable damage. So what would using asteroids bring to the table except for a change in ship design that adds extra armor to the bridge?

OK, so let's take this step by step.

If missiles were sufficient, then they would use them. They do not use them. So either they do not have missiles to use, or the missiles are not sufficient. In either case, strapping a hyperdrive (which are so plentiful that the vast, vast majority of ships have them, and can be found in junk shops on backwater worlds so far out that don't even accept Republic currency) to an asteroid brings to the table a weapon. Because either they do not have missiles of such great power, or existing missiles are not as powerful as you claim.

And, given that we have seen large-scale space battles in Episode I, Episode III, Episode VI, Episode VII, Episode VIII, and Episode IX, if exisiting missiles were as powerful as you claim, we would have seen some proof of that in... well, any of them.
ETA:
Where are you getting that an asteroid is stronger than a missile? Enough missiles have always been a route to take down shields, and enough asteroids can do the same, even if the asteroids are significantly WEAKER than the missiles.

Asteroids are massive objects. Episode VIII shows us that massive objects going to hyperspace can destroy capital ships. It is not exactly a logical leap here, and that's without bringing up that we have seen an asteroid destroy a capital ship without going to hyperspace on-screen.

Bobb

2020-05-16, 11:15 AM

Because they already have missiles! Ones with advanced guidance systems that can be carried on ships, and that explode when they hit the target for a lot of damage! Where is the advantage to using asteroids?

You keep harping on about how the rebels already have arms. But presumably hyperdrives and navcomputers would be easier to obtain than military grade weaponry?

The implications for a setting are huge, no matter how many times you deny it.

Keltest

2020-05-16, 11:16 AM

OK, so let's take this step by step.

If missiles were sufficient, then they would use them. They do not use them. So either they do not have missiles to use, or the missiles are not sufficient. In either case, strapping a hyperdrive (which are so plentiful that the vast, vast majority of ships have them, and can be found in junk shops on backwater worlds so far out that don't even accept Republic currency) to an asteroid brings to the table a weapon. Because either they do not have missiles of such great power, or existing missiles are not as powerful as you claim.

And, given that we have seen large-scale space battles in Episode I, Episode III, Episode VI, Episode VII, Episode VIII, and Episode IX, if exisiting missiles were as powerful as you claim, we would have seen some proof of that in... well, any of them.
ETA:

Asteroids are massive objects. Episode VIII shows us that massive objects going to hyperspace can destroy capital ships. It is not exactly a logical leap here, and that's without bringing up that we have seen an asteroid destroy a capital ship without going to hyperspace on-screen.

Im not aware that we've ever seen any capital ships equipped with missile launchers. Equipping a capital ship to be a capital ship destroyer goes against the purpose of having a capital ship in the first place, which is probably why. We HAVE seen y-wing bombers equipped with proton torpedoes to fill this exact job though. So I still don't understand why youre saying we don't see the tech used. Heck, even the bomb droppers in TLJ are shown to be effective if they can actually connect, its just the delivery method that's painfully stupid.

Peelee

2020-05-16, 11:20 AM

Im not aware that we've ever seen any capital ships equipped with missile launchers. Equipping a capital ship to be a capital ship destroyer goes against the purpose of having a capital ship in the first place, which is probably why. We HAVE seen y-wing bombers equipped with proton torpedoes to fill this exact job though. So I still don't understand why youre saying we don't see the tech used. Heck, even the bomb droppers in TLJ are shown to be effective if they can actually connect, its just the delivery method that's painfully stupid.

Im sorry, in which movie were X-Wings and Y-wings destroying capital ships through missiles? Also, don't forget the Naboo, who had missiles and yet could not take down the Lucrehulks.

Keltest

2020-05-16, 11:28 AM

Im sorry, in which movie were X-Wings and Y-wings destroying capital ships through missiles? Also, don't forget the Naboo, who had missiles and yet could not take down the Lucrehulks.

In TCW series, we see Y-wings used to destroy the Malevolence, just as an example. In Rogue One the Y-wings are also used to assault the planetary shields, and disable a Star Destroyer. Theyre also, most notably, the initial group to try and make the Trench Run on the death star. Wookieepedia also suggests that the payload that destroyed the Dreadnaught were proton torpedoes like what the Y-wings had.

Also, the Naboo fighters were, well, fighters. They aren't going to be equipped with capital-ship-destroying payloads, theyre a small planetary garrison for fending off pirates or whatever.

Rakaydos

2020-05-16, 11:36 AM

And, given that we have seen large-scale space battles in Episode I, Episode III, Episode VI, Episode VII, Episode VIII, and Episode IX, if exisiting missiles were as powerful as you claim, we would have seen some proof of that in... well, any of them.Episode 1, proton torpedos to take down the command ship from within the armor. Episode 2, Jango Fett's smart missiles. Episode 3, the buzzdroid missiles. Episode 4, Proton torpedos as a direct representation of the bomb from Dambusters. Episode 7, the Tie/SF's armamant, as well as the turret that shot it down. The official armamant of the Victory class star destroyers. Possibly, now that I rewatch a clip, Episode 6, the last hit of the awings against the shield generator could have been a proton rocket. (after the barrage of what are clearly lasers, so if you want to argue this one, meh.)

Asteroids are massive objects. Episode VIII shows us that massive objects going to hyperspace can destroy capital ships. It is a remarkably short logical leap, and that's without bringing up that we have seen an asteroid destroy a capital ship without going to hyperspace on-screen.

Jog my memory, didnt we see in Empire that the star destroyers were shooting asteroids to clear a path? If so, let me propose the following.

Asteroids and missiles both bypass ray shielding. You must either shoot them down, your deflector shields must take the hit, or you must take the hit on your armor. In Jedi, the Executor's shields were beaten down by the rebel fleet and the Awings managed to destroy the generator. The bridge crew "intensified firepower, dont let anything through," and missed one, hitting a weakpoint in the armor (the bridge viewport), disabling the Executor long enough to crash. Likewise in Empire, the asteroid field was pressing ships defenses to the max, and one of the star destroyers missed an incoming rock- again, to a known weak point in the Star Destroyer design and taking out an officer who would reasonably be directly behind that weak point, but without destroying the majority of the ship.

In episode 8, the first order had plenty of time to react to the rebel capital ship's maneuver, and they squandered it. The correct thing to do would have been the same thing the other star destroyers in the saga have tied to do against physical attack- "Concentrate all firepower" on the Raddus's approach vector. So before it can hyper into the fleet, it has to hyper THROUGH every shot the fleet can put out. If the ramming ship's shields go down for the runup to hyper (a reasonable assumption, given any number of possible explanations and used in any number of other settings), then hypering through all those shots would be suicide for no gain to the attacker.

Except, even if that happened, holdo just wanted the first order to stop shooting the escape pods long enough for a few to get out of range. Making the first order fleet shoot her, instead of the pods, IS the gain. (especially if she could hold atthe last moment, threatening the jump but not actually jumping to force the first order to maintian the defensive fire) That the first order was too stupid and arrogant to do so is beside the point.

Peelee

2020-05-16, 11:45 AM

In TCW series, we see Y-wings used to destroy the Malevolence, just as an example.
The Malevolence was pounded on by Star Destroyers, which disabled its primary shields (among other systems) well before the Y-Wing attack. It was already heavily damaged by the time the Y-Wings got to it, after a protracted battle. A hyperdrive missile would instead be a one-off, requiring no group of capital ships in a lengthy battle to help damage a capital ship target enough for the conventional missiles to do its job.

In Rogue One the Y-wings are also used to assault the planetary shields, and disable a Star Destroyer.
And yet the planetary shields and the Star Destroyer were both unaffected by such attacks. The Star Destroyers were only defeated by ramming them into each other after ion cannons disabled one of them. Similarly, the planetary shield was unaffected by Rebel attacks until the falling destroyed Star Destroyer rammed the generator (man, Disney seems to really enjoy ramming things). The conventional missiles seem pretty much useless to the entire equation. Comparatively, a hyperdrive missile could have taken out one, if not both, Star Destroyers, again without a protracted battle.

Theyre also, most notably, the initial group to try and make the Trench Run on the death star.
Where they explain the proton torpedo does not destroy the Death Star, but the chain reaction that reaches the core destroys the Death Star, and heavily imply that lasers would have achieved the same result but were not able to be used due to ray shielding.

Wookieepedia also suggests that the payload that destroyed the Dreadnaught were proton torpedoes like what the Y-wings had.
Ignoring the fact that the Dreadnaught appears to be made of paper, given Poe's run of it beforehand, we see how many bombs are needed to take out the ship, and it's hundreds upon hundreds. Also, all bombers were destroyed. A hyperdrive missile would, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, avoid the protracted battle with significant losses by being a one-shot to achieve the same result.

Also, the Naboo fighters were, well, fighters. They aren't going to be equipped with capital-ship-destroying payloads, theyre a small planetary garrison for fending off pirates or whatever.
X-Wings (which you yourself tried to use as a source in favor of your argument) are fighters, and are equipped with capital-ship-destroying payloads, according to your definition of proton torpedoes. Also, I'll need a source that the Naboo fighters weren't equipped with conventional missiles, since they explicitly talk about using proton torpedoes in the movie, and also explicitly mention they do not affect the Lucrehulks. So, in what should be an absolute lack of surprise here, a hyperspace missile would have achieved in one shot what the entire defense fleet could not achieve without the Chosen One fumbling his way into victory through a lengthy space battle.

Do you still wish to ask what a hyperspace missile could bring to the table that conventional missiles cannot?

Keltest

2020-05-16, 12:15 PM

Yes. You still haven't actually identified an advantage over conventional armaments. Yeah, if they had had bigger guns specifically designed for destroying capital ships, it would have gone differently on Naboo. If the rebels had had an entire fleet to fight the Death Star instead of a squadron of fighters, it would have gone differently.

Youre trying to point to them using not-bombers ineffectually as an example of why bombers aren't effective. I don't get that. Yeah, crashing a missile the size of a small moon into it would have killed the trade federation ship on Naboo too. Crashing a capital ship into the Death Star... actually explicitly happens, and doesn't appear to negatively affect the Death Star. Between that and the countermeasures that Rakaydos pointed out, everything seems to indicate that was a one off sucker punch that doesn't work as soon as people actually apply their brains to figuring it out.

Saph

2020-05-16, 12:27 PM

Why of all the things to argue about TLJ did the Internet decide to focus on this?

Because while most of the decisions and plot points in TLJ are bad, this one was bad in a way that can be explained tactically with reference to Star Wars canon. There are much worse things about TLJ that are much more worthy of an internet dogpile, but they're problems of theme and tone and character and they're much fuzzier – people are going to vaguely notice them and feel dissatisfied but they'd have trouble putting it into words.

It's like how when I did my Star Wars watchthrough thread and got to Solo, there was like a three page argument on whether the audience could be expected to have watched or read enough other Star Wars material to know that Darth Maul was still alive. Which somewhere between 90% and 99% of the audience really don't care about. Yeah, those sorts of resurrections are lame, but it doesn't make Solo a bad movie. What makes Solo a bad movie is that the whole movie is supposed to be about Han's character arc, and then it doesn't give him a character arc – the film spends ages on telling us how Han got his stuff and did his things, but when it comes to personality Han ends the movie as the same person he started as, which isn't the person he later turns into.

But that topic (which I thought was really interesting) got like two posts, while the debate about Darth Maul got something line seventy-five. It's just how the internet works.

Rakaydos

2020-05-16, 12:44 PM

I also dont understand the assumption that one could stick an off the shelf hyper generator on an asteroid and call it a superweapon. That seems a little like putting a V8 supercharger engine on my house- you're going to need a few more things, and by the time you get through all the nessisary modifications, you havnt really saved anything compared to just getting a cadilac.

Peelee

2020-05-16, 01:08 PM

Yes. You still haven't actually identified an advantage over conventional armaments.
Significant advantage over conventional armaments is avoiding a protracted battle with potentially significant losses by being able to one-shot a weapon to achieve the same result as a fleet of ships.

Yeah, if they had had bigger guns specifically designed for destroying capital ships, it would have gone differently on Naboo.
They did, according to you; they had proton torpedoes, which you yourself have referred to as capital-ship-destroying missiles.

If the rebels had had an entire fleet to fight the Death Star instead of a squadron of fighters, it would have gone differently.
Source? Nobody in the Empire or the Rebellion seems to believe that. General Dodonna explicitly claims that its firepower is greater than half the starfleet and its defenses are based around a large-scale assault. The second Death Star, which faces the entire Rebel fleet (the exact scenario you are wishing for here), was still largely impervious to the entire fleet; the plan was for a fighter to detonate the core, which would detonate the station. The exact same plan they had for the first Death Star. When formulating the plan, they decide to have the entire fleet move in, but do not plan for the fleet to take on the Death Star, ostensibly because that wouldn't do much good.

I also dont understand the assumption that one could stick an off the shelf hyper generator on an asteroid and call it a superweapon. That seems a little like putting a V8 supercharger engine on my house- you're going to need a few more things, and by the time you get through all the nessisary modifications, you havnt really saved anything compared to just getting a cadilac.
I somewhat agree, and I'm simplifying it down to its basic parts to demonstrate not that I think that incorporating it into the universe would make the universe better, but to demonstrate that the theory behind it is so simple that TLJ effectively introduced a win-button which makes the universe worse. Yes, they almost certainly can't just grab a hyperdrive from Watto's shop and pop it on a space rock, but with the level of technological sophistication they have it wouldn't be a great feat to turn large masses into weapons with greater power and tactical advantages than conventional weaponry. The Star Wars galaxy has no shortage of large masses - even ignoring space rocks, there are entire junk planets with nothing but scrap metal and trash on an enormous scale.

I don't actually want to see hyperspace missiles. I'm simply pointing out that the obvious advantages of having them, despite the fact that nobody has them, makes for poor writing in that movie.

Keltest

2020-05-16, 01:21 PM

So Peelee, what youre describing here is basically a Mass Driver (albeit in an exceptionally roundabout fashion)... and its already in Star Wars. Its the big gun on the AT-TE, and in Legends there were actually ships explicitly equipped with them. They were A: generally illegal outside the military, and B: performed very similarly to conventional missiles in terms of what you used them for. The main advantage of a mass driver over a missile is that you don't need a factory to produce ammunition for it. Conceivably, you can grab any old space rock of appropriate size and file it down. The disadvantage is that if youre doing something like, say, shooting a big old armored battleship, where a missile can hit with precise accuracy and carry an explosive payload to penetrate the armor or otherwise destroy something, with a mass driver you basically need to spray and pray that you hit something important that isn't armored.

Now, if you were to increase the scale, you could get around that problem... but then you need guidance systems, communications, sublight engines... Basically, youre building a missile with a meteor as a payload. And at that point, youre just better off using a bomb anyway.

Peelee

2020-05-16, 01:22 PM

Didn't see this earlier, and wanted to address it:
Yes they can. Anakin just flex inside a Trade Federation ship once, fired two torpedo and the whole thing just went kabloom.
In the sense that a handgun can take down a B2 if you shoot it in the cockpit, yes. But I wouldn't go around saying that a revolver can take down a bomber, because that's not going to happen unless you have an incredibly specific scenario happen.

Why yes, I would also claim that Episode I is badly written, why do you ask?:smalltongue:

So there's no need for hyperdrive then? Why not just strap normal reactors to asteroids and throw those at the ennemy? Hell, just wire a basic computer in there (doesn't even need to be a droid) and ypu've got an entire fleet of kamikaze asteroids for a fraction of the cost of a noraml ffleet and without losing a single soul to the battle.
As was pointed out, the Star Destroyers can shoot down asteroids. The hyperdrive has the double advantage of letting the payload reach the target without getting shot down, and also greatly increasing the speed, which greatly increases the energy upon impact.

So Peelee, what youre describing here is basically a Mass Driver (albeit in an exceptionally roundabout fashion)... and its already in Star Wars. Its the big gun on the AT-TE, and in Legends there were actually ships explicitly equipped with them. They were A: generally illegal outside the military, and B: performed very similarly to conventional missiles in terms of what you used them for. The main advantage of a mass driver over a missile is that you don't need a factory to produce ammunition for it. Conceivably, you can grab any old space rock of appropriate size and file it down. The disadvantage is that if youre doing something like, say, shooting a big old armored battleship, where a missile can hit with precise accuracy and carry an explosive payload to penetrate the armor or otherwise destroy something, with a mass driver you basically need to spray and pray that you hit something important that isn't armored.

Would you like to know my opinion of mass drivers in Legends?:smallwink:

Now, if you were to increase the scale, you could get around that problem... but then you need guidance systems, communications, sublight engines... Basically, youre building a missile with a meteor as a payload. And at that point, youre just better off using a bomb anyway.
No bomb in current canon would be as effective, though.

Like, seriously, you could just replace most of my arguments with a picture of a screaming Gordon Ramsay and the subtitle "IT'S BADLY WRITTEN!" And also pretend you can hear the British accent.

Forum Explorer

2020-05-16, 01:24 PM

Missiles cannot take down capital ships, let alone super-capital ships, which tend to show up handily in Star Wars. Also, who said anything about moons?

https://66.media.tumblr.com/a96af5442e9b2c9efa9c8eb1e0cc9ef3/tumblr_mhl4l4a7851r93xiko1_500.gifv
So an asteroid the size of the superstructure (which is a fraction the overall size of the Star Destroyer) can do that damage at a fairly slow speed, so strapping a hyperdrive to an asteroid about that size could take out any capital ship immediately, and do crazy damage at the very least to super-capital ships. Heck, imagine the Naboo having a hyperdrive asteroid when the Trade Federation attacked. They wouldn't need a vergence in the Force to save them, they could have saved themselves handily.

On the contrary capital ships die to everything. I mean in the same movie we see the Dreadnaught die to a single bombing run. Star Wars is (or should be) infamous for how their capital ships are apparently made out of paper mache.

Your asteroid example is just case and point of how fragile Star Wars ships are.

OK, so let's take this step by step.

If missiles were sufficient, then they would use them. They do not use them.

They use them all the time. Again, in the same movie we see them used to kill a Dreadnaught. We also see all the bombers die in the attempt, so that's why they don't try and use them again. In fact, IIRC, that was one of the reasons Poe was in trouble. Losing all their bombers for a Dreadnaught that was no longer a threat was a bad trade.

Now I agree that the hyperspace ram does mess up space battles quite a bit. At the very least, there should be no reason to ever have your ship just die. If you are losing, evacuating and then ramming should be the go to strat.

Keltest

2020-05-16, 01:30 PM

No bomb in current canon would be as effective, though.

Like, seriously, you could just replace most of my arguments with a picture of a screaming Gordon Ramsay and the subtitle "IT'S BADLY WRITTEN!" And also pretend you can hear the British accent.

Why not? Theres a reason we use missiles instead of trebuchets nowadays, and its not because military people enjoy dramatically over-engineering things.

Peelee

2020-05-16, 01:31 PM

On the contrary capital ships die to everything. I mean in the same movie we see the Dreadnaught die to a single bombing run. Star Wars is (or should be) infamous for how their capital ships are apparently made out of paper mache.

Your asteroid example is just case and point of how fragile Star Wars ships are.

They use them all the time. Again, in the same movie we see them used to kill a Dreadnaught. We also see all the bombers die in the attempt, so that's why they don't try and use them again. In fact, IIRC, that was one of the reasons Poe was in trouble. Losing all their bombers for a Dreadnaught that was no longer a threat was a bad trade.

It required hundreds upon hundreds of bombs to take out the dreadnaught. Practically anything would work in that context; overwhelm a ship with enough lasers and it'll fall, it just takes a lot of them. A big enough log will crush an AT-ST (that movie had a lot of silliness, but nobody complained about the crushing from massive tree trunks that I recall).

Yeah, if you have 500 X-Wings all shooting proton torpedoes at a Star Destroyer, you'll almost certainly take it down. But I wouldn't call proton torpedoes capital-ship-killers based off that, like Keltest is doing (at least, like Keltest is doing so far as I can read; I may be mistaken here).

Why not? Theres a reason we use missiles instead of trebuchets nowadays, and its not because military people enjoy dramatically over-engineering things.
Missiles have better range and power than trebuchets. Hyperspace missiles have better range and power than conventional missiles.

Imean, if you want to keep making my point for me, feel free, but I can't help but wonder why.

Keltest

2020-05-16, 01:34 PM

Missiles have better range and power than trebuchets. Hyperspace missiles have better range and power than conventional missiles.

Imean, if you want to keep making my point for me, feel free, but I can't help but wonder why.

Uh, no? Hyperspace missiles would have an incredibly short range. After that, they enter hyperspace properly, and the physics start changing dramatically.

Peelee

2020-05-16, 01:37 PM

Uh, no? Hyperspace missiles would have an incredibly short range. After that, they enter hyperspace properly, and the physics start changing dramatically.

Longer range than all the weaponry the First Order had, given that they couldn't do anything to the Raddus the entire movie.

Also, I'm interested in why you think that with the level of technology that Star Wars universe has, you think they wouldn't be able to target a hyperspace missile effectively, especially since it is the purest example of "line of sight and pull the trigger" that the series could possibly have, given that their lasers travel significantly slower than the speed of light.

Keltest

2020-05-16, 01:40 PM

Longer range than all the weaponry the First Order had, given that they couldn't do anything to the Raddus the entire movie.

Also, I'm interested in why you think that with the level of technology that Star Wars universe has, you think they wouldn't be able to target a hyperspace missile effectively, especially since it is the purest example of "line of sight and pull the trigger" that the series could possibly have, given that their lasers travel significantly slower than the speed of light.

Im sure they could target one effectively... If they attached sublight engines and a navigational system to it, and a communications system so they could actually fire it.

You know, if they built a missile.

ETA: to be clear, these are mandatory for any variation of this that isn't literally being shot out of a cannon. You need to be able to turn the hyperdrive so its shooting in the correct direction, and to be able to give it a signal to maneuver and activate it.

Peelee

2020-05-16, 01:47 PM

Im sure they could target one effectively... If they attached sublight engines and a navigational system to it, and a communications system so they could actually fire it.

You know, if they built a missile.

ETA: to be clear, these are mandatory for any variation of this that isn't literally being shot out of a cannon. You need to be able to turn the hyperdrive so its shooting in the correct direction, and to be able to give it a signal to maneuver and activate it.

First, why would they need sublight engines and a nagivational system? Again, it's point and shoot. Deploy it, have attitude adjusters rotate it to the best orientation, and fire off the hyperdrive. Simple, low-tech, basic targeting computer and simple directional gas rockets needed. IRL we were able to develop those in the early 60's when we still didn't know if going to space would make your eyes explode, it should hardly present a challenge to a galaxy that's been spacefaring for thousands of years.

Also, yes, the object is to build a missile. I've referred to it as a hyperspace missile for some time now. The difference is that it's a better missile than conventional missiles, and so far the best objections have been "what if you unload the conventional missile in the middle of the innards of the enemy ship" and "what if you just completely overwhelm the enemy ship with as many conventional missiles as you can", neither of which strike me as good ideas to employ on a constant basis, and I'm being generous there.

Forum Explorer

2020-05-16, 01:50 PM

It required hundreds upon hundreds of bombs to take out the dreadnaught. Practically anything would work in that context; overwhelm a ship with enough lasers and it'll fall, it just takes a lot of them. A big enough log will crush an AT-ST (that movie had a lot of silliness, but nobody complained about the crushing from massive tree trunks that I recall).

Yeah, if you have 500 X-Wings all shooting proton torpedoes at a Star Destroyer, you'll almost certainly take it down. But I wouldn't call proton torpedoes capital-ship-killers based off that, like Keltest is doing (at least, like Keltest is doing so far as I can read; I may be mistaken here).

There were maybe over a hundred bombs, not hundreds upon hundreds. Only a single bomber actually dropped their payload. Admittedly, that was more bombs then a Y-Wing could carry, but Y-Wings likely wouldn't have been slaughtered enmass to drop their payload.

Also are you kidding? So many people complained about the logs crushing an AT-ST. I'm pretty sure that scene was used to prove that Star Wars vehicles are less durable than a modern day tank.

Proton Torpedoes are capital ship killers. Admittedly, it'd be really rare for a single torpedo to do the job, but their purpose is to be shot at capital ships. And enough torpedoes (a number larger than 1, but less than 500) will cripple and destroy a Star Destroyer pretty easily. You certainly aren't going to waste them on Tie Fighters.

Peelee

2020-05-16, 01:58 PM

There were maybe over a hundred bombs, not hundreds upon hundreds. Only a single bomber actually dropped their payload. Admittedly, that was more bombs then a Y-Wing could carry, but Y-Wings likely wouldn't have been slaughtered enmass to drop their payload.

Also are you kidding? So many people complained about the logs crushing an AT-ST. I'm pretty sure that scene was used to prove that Star Wars vehicles are less durable than a modern day tank.

Proton Torpedoes are capital ship killers. Admittedly, it'd be really rare for a single torpedo to do the job, but their purpose is to be shot at capital ships. And enough torpedoes (a number larger than 1, but less than 500) will cripple and destroy a Star Destroyer pretty easily. You certainly aren't going to waste them on Tie Fighters.

I wanted to find an image of the bombs, but the Wookieepedia page is good enough:

Armament

Magnetic proton bombs (1,048)

Forum Explorer

2020-05-16, 02:01 PM

I wanted to find an image of the bombs, but the Wookieepedia page is good enough:

You can find the scene on youtube. If you've got the time and care enough to, you can actually count the bombs as they fall. There is a lot less than that.

Keltest

2020-05-16, 02:03 PM

You can find the scene on youtube. If you've got the time and care enough to, you can actually count the bombs as they fall. There is a lot less than that.

Indeed. The Resistance was running on fumes, at least with that particular attack. Maybe they have the capacity for more, but they certainly weren't employing them.

(and/or, and this is more likely, whoever wrote the book with that particular data point in it was just making up things that sounded cool without bothering to actually consider how that would actually look or operate.)

Peelee

2020-05-16, 02:04 PM

Indeed. The Resistance was running on fumes, at least with that particular attack. Maybe they have the capacity for more, but they certainly weren't employing them.

(and/or, and this is more likely, whoever wrote the book with that particular data point in it was just making up things that sounded cool without bothering to actually consider how that would actually look or operate.)

I'm still going to look for a shot with the bombs in the bay, because it is certainly several hundreds. If anyone else finds a good shot before I, feel free to toss it up.

Forum Explorer

2020-05-16, 02:09 PM

I'm still going to look for a shot with the bombs in the bay, because it is certainly several hundreds. If anyone else finds a good shot before I, feel free to toss it up.

Well here's (https://youtu.be/qtNWzc0x0as?t=198)the link I'm using. In case I messed it up, bombs drop at 3:18

Indeed. The Resistance was running on fumes, at least with that particular attack. Maybe they have the capacity for more, but they certainly weren't employing them.

(and/or, and this is more likely, whoever wrote the book with that particular data point in it was just making up things that sounded cool without bothering to actually consider how that would actually look or operate.)

More likely is they have the capacity to drop bombs multiple times rather than being only good for a single bombing run before needing to return and rearm. Each bombing run might use something like 100-200 bombs, so they can hit potentially 5-10 ships before needing to rearm if they can carry over a thousand bombs.

Peelee

2020-05-16, 02:14 PM

Well here's (https://youtu.be/qtNWzc0x0as?t=198)the link I'm using. In case I messed it up, bombs drop at 3:18

Awesome! So, at 3:07, the clearest count I can get per column is 12 I can also count at least 16 rows of columns. As they fall, we can see there is a second row behind the first, so 12x16x2=384 proton bombs. And those are just the ones we can readily and easily count, it's just the lower bound, there may be another row or two beyond the near camera range we can't see.

So. I'd say that "nearly 400" certainly qualifies as "hundreds upon hundreds."

ETA: My initial count of columns was higher, but before I posted I checked again and some were clearly the second wave. 16 rows of columns is what I found for the first wave.

Double ETA: So at the 3:21 mark we get the clearest shot of the rows, and it's definitely 16 for each wave. Score one for my counting skills!

jayem

2020-05-16, 02:27 PM

First, why would they need sublight engines...?
...

That would be a partial fix, if a minimal non-trivial speed* and fuel/energy was needed to enter hyperspace (even though it's only once), then it would get in the region where it's more like an actual ship.

If the X-wing hyperdrive is all you need to enter hyperspeed then you can trivially have an X-wing massed hyper-missile for a lot less crafting.
Which you can afford to lose at a similar rate to X-wings, furthermore it's a lot easier to adjust your aim a small bit** than for the ship to move the corresponding distance. You drop one out and any following ship can't be going in a straight line and is wasting fuel constantly.

* relative to?
** if you launched it with a reasonable spin, you could even just wait for it to line up in the one axis.

Forum Explorer

2020-05-16, 02:28 PM

Awesome! So, at 3:07, the clearest count I can get per column is 12 I can also count at least 16 rows of columns. As they fall, we can see there is a second row behind the first, so 12x16x2=384 proton bombs. And those are just the ones we can readily and easily count, it's just the lower bound, there may be another row or two beyond the near camera range we can't see.

So. I'd say that "nearly 400" certainly qualifies as "hundreds upon hundreds."

ETA: My initial count of columns was higher, but before I posted I checked again and some were clearly the second wave. 16 rows of columns is what I found for the first wave.

That's pretty close to what I got, where I counted a little over 200 bombs falling, using the scene where we saw the bombs falling down to the then unharmed ship.

However, I take hundreds upon hundreds to mean at least a 1000, and usually take it to mean something like 10 000 (hundreds upon hundreds = a hundred hundreds, at least in my mind)

Peelee

2020-05-16, 02:32 PM

That's pretty close to what I got, where I counted a little over 200 bombs falling, using the scene where we saw the bombs falling down to the then unharmed ship.

However, I take hundreds upon hundreds to mean at least a 1000, and usually take it to mean something like 10 000 (hundreds upon hundreds = a hundred hundreds, at least in my mind)

Ah. I use it to mean multiple hundreds, since I think that conveys better than "hundreds", but still less than a thousand, which sounds more massive than "hundreds upon hundreds" . I can see how that could be confusing though. My bad!

Maybe "hundreds and hundreds" should be my goto instead.

KatsOfLoathing

2020-05-16, 02:43 PM

Batmanhomer, now that you've finished the Skywalker Saga movies, have you considered reviewing the other Star Wars films? Rogue One, Solo, maybe the Clone Wars movie if you're feeling daring?

Peelee

2020-05-16, 02:45 PM

Batmanhomer, now that you've finished the Skywalker Saga movies, have you considered reviewing the other Star Wars films? Rogue One, Solo, maybe the Clone Wars movie if you're feeling daring?

Frankly, I'm still hoping for Saph to finish theirs.* Or, at the very least, take a stab at The Mandalorian.

*I'm incredibly optimistic on that, I'll readily admit.

Bartmanhomer

2020-05-16, 02:46 PM

Peelee

2020-05-16, 02:50 PM

Oh, and speaking of Saph...

Because while most of the decisions and plot points in TLJ are bad, this one was bad in a way that can be explained tactically with reference to Star Wars canon. There are much worse things about TLJ that are much more worthy of an internet dogpile, but they're problems of theme and tone and character and they're much fuzzier – people are going to vaguely notice them and feel dissatisfied but they'd have trouble putting it into words.

It's like how when I did my Star Wars watchthrough thread and got to Solo, there was like a three page argument on whether the audience could be expected to have watched or read enough other Star Wars material to know that Darth Maul was still alive. Which somewhere between 90% and 99% of the audience really don't care about. Yeah, those sorts of resurrections are lame, but it doesn't make Solo a bad movie. What makes Solo a bad movie is that the whole movie is supposed to be about Han's character arc, and then it doesn't give him a character arc – the film spends ages on telling us how Han got his stuff and did his things, but when it comes to personality Han ends the movie as the same person he started as, which isn't the person he later turns into.

But that topic (which I thought was really interesting) got like two posts, while the debate about Darth Maul got something line seventy-five. It's just how the internet works.

I would have loved for Solo to do a character arc of making Han from the optimistic, bright-eyed person we see in the beginning into the jaded, cynical person we see in the Mos Eisley cantina. He spent the entirety of Solo being super-excitable, and I just didn't see how he would have gone from that to the much more calm, reserved person who was able to talk down Greedo long enough to blast him before he got blasted himself.