A need for Spring Attack Feat 3.0/3.5

[samduke]

Okay playgrounders.

Spring Attack a useless feat, but it is required for Whirlwind Attack again useless but it is required for a PRC.
said PRC wants to be taken right at level 4 if possible.

Spring Attack/Whirlwind Attack require BAB 4+, meaning the soonest one can take it is level 4 normally

Is there any way to get Spring Attack sooner, via a base class or magic item that grants it before level 4?

Possibly the Samurai 2 (OA) Crab, Crane, Scorpion, clans (I think that it must meet the bab 4+ still)?

so any help here is appreciated

[Emperor Tippy]

Okay playgrounders.

Spring Attack a useless feat, but it is required for Whirlwind Attack again useless but it is required for a PRC.
said PRC wants to be taken right at level 4 if possible.

Spring Attack/Whirlwind Attack require BAB 4+, meaning the soonest one can take it is level 4 normally

Is there any way to get Spring Attack sooner, via a base class or magic item that grants it before level 4?

Possibly the Samurai 2 (OA) Crab, Crane, Scorpion, clans (I think that it must meet the bab 4+ still)?

so any help here is appreciated

Martial variant of Monk from Dragon #310. You get to draw your Monk Bonus Feats from the Fighter Bonus Feat list, but as they are still granted by the Monk Bonus Feat class feature they follow the rules for that class feature; which means you don't need to meet prerequisites for the feats that you choose.

So Martial Monk 2 can take both of them. Whether or not your can skip Whirlwind Attack and jump straight to Improved Whirlwind Attack (the Epic feat) is a bit hazier as it relies on Epic Fighter Bonus Feats being Fighter Bonus Feats and opinion is split on that question.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

There are a few options if you have a very permissive DM discussed in this thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?518094-Getting-Spring-Attack-Early), including Martial Monk.

[Rebel7284]

Golden Dancing Pegleg in Dragon 318 (p54)

Getting that much gold at level 1 is left as an exercise to the reader, but technically you CAN have a level 1 character with such a graft.

[samduke]

Golden Dancing Pegleg in Dragon 318 (p54)

Getting that much gold at level 1 is left as an exercise to the reader, but technically you CAN have a level 1 character with such a graft.

yeah i checked out that and Monkey Head Talisman Dragon 351 p. 49 both are out for costing to much

I will check out martial monk however. as well as the link

edit
Marshal (mini hb)
Skill Focus (Diplomacy): Because a marshal has a way with people, he gains this feat as a bonus feat. If the marshal already has the feat, he can choose a different one.

does this actually get around the bab 4+ of Spring attack if I already had Skill Focus (Diplomacy)?

[Emperor Tippy]

edit
Marshal (mini hb)
Skill Focus (Diplomacy): Because a marshal has a way with people, he gains this feat as a bonus feat. If the marshal already has the feat, he can choose a different one.

does this actually get around the bab 4+ of Spring attack if I already had Skill Focus (Diplomacy)?

No, the general rule is that you have to meet a feats prerequisites to choose it - regardless of why you are getting to take the feat.

You need a specific exception to get around the prerequisites, and those tend to be fairly rare.

[samduke]

specific like martial monk - that is about what i figured

[Rebel7284]

yeah i checked out that and Monkey Head Talisman Dragon 351 p. 49 both are out for costing to much


So this takes a permissive DM, but

Paladin 1: Say "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu"

You get one wish that's guaranteed to be as untwisted as possible.

Wishing for a magic item is explicitly something that wish can do.

You probably fall as a paladin after for consorting with demons.

Yes, this is free wish abuse, but
a) On these boards, this is used to start a loop to ascent to godhood. Getting a couple of feats so you can do a character you want, and not that strong of a character either is plain benign in comparison.
b) If you do fall, you paid a cost for it, even if it's a small cost.

Might be worth a conversation, especially if you go for the cheaper (but slightly harder to steal!) item.

[RNightstalker]

Is there a monster class that has starting BAB and feats that would work for your build?

The only alternative I could think of is asking your DM if you can take flaws at 4th level instead of first, and enter your PrC at 5th.

By 4th level you could afford mobility armor to save a feat.

[tenshiakodo]

Are you ok with being a goblin? There's a goblin subrace (I'm away from books so I can't recall the name) that gets Spring Attack as a bonus Feat.

[Troacctid]

You could make a Faustian bargain. Selling your soul to the Nine Hells is worth a bonus feat and then some. See Chapter 1 of FC2 for details.

[Nifft]

Are you ok with being a goblin? There's a goblin subrace (I'm away from books so I can't recall the name) that gets Spring Attack as a bonus Feat.

I don't remember that type of goblin, can anyone help with the name?

Assuming it exists, maybe one of those goblins got reincarnated into some other PC-compatible race, and that's now you.

[Elves]

specific like martial monk - that is about what i figured

The martial monk trick is in pretty bad taste. It's like those builds that chaos shuffle away the armor proficiency feats that core classes allegedly get according to the Armor Proficiency feat descriptions.

[ShurikVch]

Symbiotic Creature template (Savage Species):
Feats: A symbiotic creature retains the host's feats and gains the guest's feats as bonus feats.

[Remuko]

The martial monk trick is in pretty bad taste. It's like those builds that chaos shuffle away the armor proficiency feats that core classes allegedly get according to the Armor Proficiency feat descriptions.

how is it a "trick"? its literally how the feature works. this use of it isnt even incredibly cheesy or broken. but the feature does what it says it does.

[Elves]

how is it a "trick"? its literally how the feature works. this use of it isnt even incredibly cheesy or broken. but the feature does what it says it does.
Bypassing the prereqs of any fighter bonus feats you want was obviously not RAI. It's way out of wack with the other ACFs in that article, too.

If you need a RAW argument, the text in the monk class only says you can ignore the requirements for "these feats", as in the feats listed there.

Even if there were no RAW argument, there's a difference between cheese that's cool and cheese that feels gross. The human error is easy enough to see in this case.

[Remuko]

Bypassing the prereqs of any fighter bonus feats you want was obviously not RAI. It's way out of wack with the other ACFs in that article, too.

If you need a RAW argument, the text in the monk class only says you can ignore the requirements for "these feats", as in the feats listed there.

Even if there were no RAW argument, there's a difference between cheese that's cool and cheese that feels gross. The human error is easy enough to see in this case.

ignoring the fact that it can LEAD TO CHEESE, as that can bias the judgement, nothing in the feature implies that the "these feats" bit shouldnt still be there for martial monk. The feats they can choose are different. nothing else. I think its far more likely that its both raw and rai that you can ignore the prereqs and the devs just didnt think about the levels of cheese that could be possible.

[Elves]

I think its far more likely that its both raw and rai that you can ignore the prereqs and the devs just didnt think about the levels of cheese that could be possible.
There's an example character given right there and they didn't violate any of the prereqs for their feats, which is strong evidence of RAI.

It's a lot more likely that the writer wasn't thinking of that non-qualification clause and wasn't intending to give a blank check to take Robilar's Gambit or Melee Weapon Mastery or whatever at 1st level.

Especially if you compare it to the variants like Martial Rogue and Martial Wizard that it was patterned after.


Cheese is a cuisine so good taste matters. This one is distasteful.

[Silvercrys]

Are you ok with being a goblin? There's a goblin subrace (I'm away from books so I can't recall the name) that gets Spring Attack as a bonus Feat.Hum.

I've checked the usual places (master player race list and LA +1 and +2 lists) and can't find anything that gives spring attack as a bonus feat.

Do you know what book it might be in or anything?

[Thurbane]

If you want to avoid Spring Attack altogether, binding the 3rd level vestige Paimon gives the benefits of the Whirlwind Attack feat, along with several other benefits.

Requires 5 levels in Binder, or 3 with a feat.

If it's to meet reqs for a PrC, this may not be of any use, though.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

As mentioned above, the Symbiotic Creature template from Savage Species technically works. Getting a DM to allow it would be very difficult without a fantastic backstory justification, though (maybe Pixie artificer piloting a warforged?). Symbiotic Creature allows for some truly cool character concepts; 'early entry to prestige class' is not one that would be enough to sell me on it as a DM, even with boring feats.

Also, while you have the feats, since you don't qualify for them (and lack a specific exception to the rule) you don't get any benefit from them. There is quite a bit of debate as to whether that includes using them as prerequisites for something else, or refers only to the "Benefits" section of the feat description.

[Telonius]

Out of curiosity, is this for a Kensai (OA) build?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Out of curiosity, is this for a Kensai (OA) build?

Probably not. That requires BAB +5 so it simply can't be entered before level 6. It also explicitly requires most of those twos' prerequisite feats so there's little point trying to to around them.

[Ruethgar]

A lot more cheesey, but a handful of awakened animals have ECL set to 0 despite their RHD. An Awakened Titanic Dungeonbred Magebred War Monkey is ECL 0 with 26 RHD, that would let you easily get the feats you want. More tame, an advanced Awakened Monkey is the only Small awakened animal with ECL 0(others are tiny or titanic) still 4-5 free RHD(can be 3 but that's tiny) to get the BaB needed earlier than normal.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Hey I've actually got a way to get Whirlwind Attack by 3rd level with no cheese at all. A Binder 3 with Improved Binding can bind Paimon, who among other pretty solid benefits, gives Whirlwind Attack as a bonus feat. Well, its "benefit", so I guess that's a little iffy.

[tenshiakodo]

Sorry, been away from computer for a bit. I'm talking about the Varag: http://srd.dndtools.org/srd/races/racesMm4.html

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Sorry, been away from computer for a bit. I'm talking about the Varag: Monster Manual IV

Hmm, those are some interesting races. The Varags have 3 HD and 2 LA, so you'd be entering the prestige class at ECL 6, but if LA buyoff is in play, it will eventually be like having entered at ECL 4.

[Silvercrys]

That is a pretty neat goblinoid I've never heard of before!

Since we need Whirlwind Attack to get into the PrC I don't think it helps much, though

I think fastest entry without it is Full BAB 2/OA Samurai 2/Psychic Warrior or Fighter 1? You get Dodge, Mobility with normal feats, Spring Attack at 4 with Samurai, then Whirlwind Attack as a Fighter feat at 5?

With it you have 3 RHD and Spring Attack but only BAB +2 and you need +4 for Whirlwind attack so Varag Fighter 2 is ECL 7 with Whirlwind Attack; the LA can be bought off eventually but you still get the same effective entry level at 20 (Monstrous Humanoid 3/Fighter 2)