Can you solve this puzzle?

[MicHag]

This post is no longer needed, no reason to discuss further.

[Buufreak]

So, I get what you said, and I somewhat respect it, but you are trying to approach this like a scientific sample study, and that isn't going to much work. You actually need some back and forth on this one. So, without giving away anything in the puzzle, a critique:

You have given so very little information with this, I struggle to see anyone getting it right without checking both hints. You can't really even call symbols on the door (which we can look at that later) as hints, because you have given all of 3 pieces of information, being door, symbols, stone. Obviously anyone at all is going to inspect the symbols, which makes me think that since you are considering them as the hint and the better hint, you are intending to incentivise the completion of this alleged puzzle without using them. Pro tip: don't do that. If they get past it, regardless of how, reward them.

We then get to the actual hints themselves, to which I say "do what now?" I'm not seeing any rhyme or reason to either of them. Is there any amount of detail you are leaving out here? Some sort of context? Are the letters written in any particular font or language? Are the 8th notes used simply as spacers, or is this actually meant to have a sing song kinda feel? What about the rest of the room? Why does anyone want to get through this door in the first place?

There just seems to be so much missing here, I'm not sure what to make of it, much less what to do with it.

[tyckspoon]

C. Did not find answer.

However, I didn't particularly try, because I find the format you're presenting it in to be obtuse, and I don't want to play 'What even is the puzzle' before I can try to solve the puzzle. Your hints are presented without context as to how you should use them, and the music-note icons (is that supposed to be music notes? If they're meant to be some other image it might be getting mangled, special characters sometimes don't translate correctly into other fonts) make them difficult to read without providing any additional useful information that I can identify. So there's symbols and there's a thing that responds to touch. Ok? That might be obvious to you, as it's your puzzle, but simply stating that does not make it obvious to everybody else, and in particular it's probably not going to be obvious to your players - you don't want them to have to play 20 Questions with you just to figure out what the puzzle is before they can even attempt to solve the puzzle.

[Troacctid]

I would try the following solutions:
Rearranging the letters to form instructions
Decipher Script check to discern hidden meanings
Playing music to see if it does anything
Simple Caesarean cipher (the eighth notes could mean +8 or -8)
Move a block on top of the switch like in Zelda
Cast knock
Destroy the door
Teleport past the door
Interrogate dungeon monsters for more info
Open the door (maybe it's not locked)
Did I solve it?

[Max Caysey]

Once you solve the puzzle, i believe it is quite clear what to do.


Its not clear at all... none of it is!

[Saint-Just]

C

I do not see how anyone can ever solve the puzzle without looking at the first hint, which means it's not a hint, it's a part of necessary information.

Additionally - notes. Are they inscribed? Do symbols produce a sound when you touch them? It's really unclear.

Finally if you are relying on existing IRL song\rhyme as the basis for the puzzle I strongly recommend you to reconsider.

[Troacctid]

C

I do not see how anyone can ever solve the puzzle without looking at the first hint, which means it's not a hint, it's a part of necessary information.
Counterpoint, I bet I could solve it with two symbols of my own: ⛰️🔨

[Biggus]

Glad I'm not the only one...

C could not solve puzzle

[Kayblis]

C. The absolute lack of context makes me feel it's not an actual puzzle, but a plot barrier that opens up when you go search for a late resident's notes or something to teach you how to open it. It makes no sense by itself.

Other than Troacctid's options to bypass the problem, I'd also try to bring things in contact with the glowing stone and knock on it rythmically, as apparently the part of "making sense" only comes after the door opens. Gotta try everything, because you got nothing to work with.

As a side point, if something is vital information, it's not a hint. It's part of the puzzle. No sane person would say "I have a question. Answer me." and expect an actual answer without providing a question. The question itself is not a hint. Your 'easier hint' out of context also doesn't help at all. If you have to have the answer to understand the hint, it's not an actual hint, it's a reference.

[Nifft]

I gave this "puzzle" a good 15 seconds of consideration, and the result is that I'm not sure what the puzzle is.

C- for me, instructions unclear.

[hewhosaysfish]

So before reading the "hints", our only point of interaction is the flat stone which glows when touched.

So we have to touch something specific to it? Or a sequence of specific somethings? Or touch it with a hand while saying/doing something specific?
I suppose that's something I could test: does it glow when anything touches it or only when touched be a person? (The original description said it glows when "someone" touches it.)

Other than that, I can't get any further without a "hint".
It's like being told that one guard always tells the truth and one guard always lies and being asked to pick a path based on that when neither of the guards has said anything yet.

If I read the 1st hint, then...

The music note symbols make me think that I'm looking at sequence of musical notes. But music notes don't go as far as "I" and definitely not as far as "W".
It's not Do Re Mi etc...

So this sequence of letters indicates how I/we should touch the stone. Somehow.

The letters are a sequence of... things... that we could identify from their initials?

They're not numbers.
They're not colours.
They're probably not body parts. ("I touch the stone with my Hand. Then I touch the stone with my... In-step? Then I touch the stone with my Bum...")
Not month, or days of the weeks.

Maybe it's not initials. Maybe each letter's position in the alphabet gives us a number.
H=8
I=9
B=2
L=12
A=1
S=19
W=23

This means nothing to me.



Trying the second "hint"...


Now, I'm looking at a longer list of letters. Nothing that really gives me any more insight about what those letters might stand for.

Maybe each letter here is the first word in a sentence? But that means that the first "hint" was the first letter of each sentence, and it would be outrageous to expect us to guess an entire sentence from just the 1st letter, with no other context.



Finally if you are relying on existing IRL song\rhyme as the basis for the puzzle I strongly recommend you to reconsider.


Oh no.

Is the "hint" the first letter of each word from a song or rhyme? It would fit with the use of musical notes in the presentation.

I'm not a fan of that idea. But if it's right, what song/rhyme would it be?

Pop songs would probably be known to the players but completely out of character of the pseudo-historical setting of a DnD game (which I'm assuming this is for, although you never specified).
Folk songs would be on-theme but how many can you count on you players to recognise? (Can confirm, HDMOF is not the start of Greensleeves...)
Nursery rhymes would be well known and not too unbelievable. Humpty Dumpty Mat On a Fall? No.



I've got nothing.
Put me down as answer (C).

[Segev]

C, here, too.


It is not at all clear what to do. I see no way in which you could derive the second hint from the first, but it's clear that it's believed by the puzzle-designer that they're somehow related in an unambiguous way. The glowing panel on the door suggests you're supposed to touch/press it in order to start performing whatever action is desired by the puzzle, but again, the "hints" (which are not really hints, but rather the puzzle itself, I wager) are extremely unclear as to even what category of actions to perform, let alone what specific ways to do them.

My only serious guess is in this spoiler:Put you hand on it and sing the letters?

I know this can't be right, because the second hint just adds more letters to sing, with no obvious way to derive them from the first. They clearly are NOT the notes you're supposed to sing, because music notes go from A to G. Is "H" supposed to be high-A, maybe?

[Lapak]

So before reading the "hints", our only point of interaction if the flat stone which glows when touched.
[trimmed for space]
I've got nothing.
Put me down as answer (C).

This entire post is an almost eerily accurate reproduction of exactly my experience with this post/thread.

[DeTess]

C here too. With the given infornation it is completely unclear to me what the puzzle even is, let alone how to go about solving it.

[Evoker]

Granted that I'm not great at puzzle solving, I have to go with C. Glad I'm not alone, though.

[Maat Mons]

Does the whole stone glow when you touch part of it? Or does just the part you touched glow? Does the glow linger after you stop touching it? How long does it linger?

I trace the symbols onto the surface with my finger, so that the glowing trail left behind spells out the code word. If that doesn't work, I have no idea why we have symbols and an interactive, flat surface.

[Batcathat]

After a very brief first attempt and a longer second attempt I admit defeat and add myself to the C pile.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I too am ready for the actual easy hint.

I like the guess that these could be the first letters of sentences (hard) or words (easy) to a song, but I don't think this format makes it particularly easy which one. While I might guess some songs by just their first note, the first letters of the sentences are less automatically recognizable.

I think the song starts with "How do/did my..."

[Darkfire]

B) I think! Recognised the first and last line of the easy hint after about 20 minutes and having read everyone elses responses. Not clear if the second and last words are significant or if the entire thing should be sung while holding the button.

[Max Caysey]

B) I think! Recognised the first and last line of the easy hint after about 20 minutes and having read everyone elses responses. Not clear if the second and last words are significant or if the entire thing should be sung while holding the button.

I wonder how a song from Earth, can enter a fantasy setting... if that is indeed what is happening...

[Biggus]

Well, I think we've established that the second 'hint' is not too easy...

Even after reading everyone else's responses I still can't get it.

[Darkfire]

I wonder how a song from Earth, can enter a fantasy setting... if that is indeed what is happening...

If you want an example, I recommend Soul Music by the late great Sir Terry Pratchett.

[KillianHawkeye]

Yeah, a bunch of random letters isn't a puzzle. It's a mind reading test.

More importantly, mind puzzles aren't a good game mechanic for a roleplaying game. They work great in stories, but unless it's a well known puzzle or ridiculously easy to figure out, then players will get frustrated and immediately begin hitting things with a metaphorical hammer. If it's something that the players MUST solve in order to progress the game, it will just make everyone feel bad 95% of the time.

Legend of Zelda style physical puzzles can work, but again I would not rely on them for necessary game progression.

[Necroticplague]

??? C.
While I understand the reference made in the easier hint

It's the first letter of each word in the first lines of 'song of silence'

Hello darkness, my old friend
I've come to talk with you again
Because a vision softly creeping
Left its seeds while I was sleeping
And the vision that was planted in my brain
Still remains
Within the sound of silence

H♫ D♫ M♫ O♫ F♫
I♫ C♫ T♫ T♫ W♫ Y♫ A♫
B♫ A♫ V♫ S♫ C♫
L♫ I♫ S♫ W♫ I♫ W♫ S♫
A♫ T♫ V♫ T♫ W♫ P♫ I♫ M♫ B♫
S♫ R♫
W♫ T♫ S♫ O♫ S

1. I think expecting anyone to even potentially get it from the hard hint is absolutely bonkers. That's levels of deductive leaping that would require utter insanity.
2. Relying on an IRL reference like that is something you need to very carefully do, and can easily backfire.
3. How in the mother of heck this could potentially relate to the puzzle based on touching a glowing stone in some pattern is entirely beyond me.


Since the song refers to darkness and silence, I presume the glowing panel is actually a red herring:
I also presume the room is naturally dark, which is counteracted by how most would he holding a light source, like torches and lanterns. The solution would be to stifle all noises and turn off all such light sources. After being in such a state for a bit, the door will open.

[False God]

Put me down for D for "Didn't bother".

Puzzles in a game are challenges for the character, the player only really interacts with the challenge via a roll of the dice and applicable modifiers. It shouldn't be up to the player to figure out the puzzle, it should be up to the character. Especially in a system like D&D where the mental stats of the player and those of the character can be greatly divergent.

[Gavinfoxx]

Put me down for D for "Didn't bother".

Puzzles in a game are challenges for the character, the player only really interacts with the challenge via a roll of the dice and applicable modifiers. It shouldn't be up to the player to figure out the puzzle, it should be up to the character. Especially in a system like D&D where the mental stats of the player and those of the character can be greatly divergent.

Ahem. In editions prior to 3.Xe, it was common that you didn't actually roleplay your character in any way we would recognize. Your character was a placeholder for your own cleverness and out of game knowledge, and the game was entirely a puzzle for you -- there was no concept of metagaming, because the entire game was played in the metagame. Perhaps those dark times is what he is drawing inspiration from?

[Calthropstu]

Fire is the solution to all problems.

I jest, but seriously, expect severe acts of violence upon this door. I wouldn't be surprised to hear "I go back to town and buy a scroll of disintigrate and use it on the door" from your players. real life puzzles that can't be quickly solved just drags the game out and pisses players off. Especially if the gm makes his door ultra magical nothing can penetrate. Doors like that aren't opened by solving puzzles, because "I can solve puzzles" isn't a smart way to lock something, unless you don't care about who gets what's inside.

Plus, "We go hire someone really good at solving puzzles" is a legitimate strategy. In short: puzzles in video games? Good. Puzzles in tabletop rpgs? Bad.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

??? C.
While I understand the reference made in the easier hint

It's the first letter of each word in the first lines of 'song of silence'

Hello darkness, my old friend
I've come to talk with you again
Because a vision softly creeping
Left its seeds while I was sleeping
And the vision that was planted in my brain
Still remains
Within the sound of silence

H♫ D♫ M♫ O♫ F♫
I♫ C♫ T♫ T♫ W♫ Y♫ A♫
B♫ A♫ V♫ S♫ C♫
L♫ I♫ S♫ W♫ I♫ W♫ S♫
A♫ T♫ V♫ T♫ W♫ P♫ I♫ M♫ B♫
S♫ R♫
W♫ T♫ S♫ O♫ S

1. I think expecting anyone to even potentially get it from the hard hint is absolutely bonkers. That's levels of deductive leaping that would require utter insanity.
2. Relying on an IRL reference like that is something you need to very carefully do, and can easily backfire.
3. How in the mother of heck this could potentially relate to the puzzle based on touching a glowing stone in some pattern is entirely beyond me.


Since the song refers to darkness and silence, I presume the glowing panel is actually a red herring:
I also presume the room is naturally dark, which is counteracted by how most would he holding a light source, like torches and lanterns. The solution would be to stifle all noises and turn off all such light sources. After being in such a state for a bit, the door will open.
I'm 100% not familiar with the "solution" you put forth. Never heard it, don't know the words at all. Good on you for figuring it out, though.

But yeah, an adamantine greatsword to the face is what this "puzzle" is asking for. Easier than spending an hour trying to figure out something I have no way of knowing.

[Gavinfoxx]

So this is a puzzle for a D20 Modern game, yes? Or the protagonists, AND the person making the puzzle, lived on our planet sometime after 1964 and then got turned into D&D characters and sent to a fantasy world via portal of some sort? And the party KNOWS that the person making the puzzle, like them, was sent from Earth after 1964 AND likes 1960's American music? And you are allowing people to make the various D20 Modern Knowledge checks for pop culture references? Perhaps folding those checks into the normal 3.5e skills (if it's not a D20 Modern game) and tweaking the names of the skills?

Because otherwise, its a terrible, terrible puzzle.

[Darkfire]

While I understand the reference made in the easier hint

I'm glad I'm not the only one who got it.



1. I think anyone to even potentially get it from the hard hint is absolutely bonkers. That's levels of deductive leaping that would require utter insanity.
2. Relying on an IRL reference like that is something you need to very carefully do, and can easily backfire.
3. How in the mother of heck this could potentially relate to the puzzle based on touching a glowing stone in some pattern is entirely beyond me.


I agree with your assessment: even if the thing is of particular significance to all of your players, I can't see how they'll get it from anything less than the easy hint.




Since the song refers to darkness and silence, I presume the glowing panel is actually a red herring:
I also presume the room is naturally dark, which is counteracted by how most would he holding a light source, like torches and lanterns. The solution would be to stifle all noises and turn off all such light sources. After being in such a state for a bit, the door will open.


If that were the case, I'd expect to find it open. I was thinking along those lines
such as casting spells of the same names.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

If that were the case, I'd expect to find it open. I was thinking along those lines
such as casting spells of the same names.


Yeah, something like that. Maybe put the solution to song.

"First make a sound, cast Silence..."

That song is going to be in my head for the entire day now...

[animewatcha]

I wonder if the OP knows of the dungeoncrasher ACf. It's perfect for busting walls around the door. Or even better, steal the door itself.

[Max Caysey]

??? C.
While I understand the reference made in the easier hint

It's the first letter of each word in the first lines of 'song of silence'

Hello darkness, my old friend
I've come to talk with you again
Because a vision softly creeping
Left its seeds while I was sleeping
And the vision that was planted in my brain
Still remains
Within the sound of silence

H♫ D♫ M♫ O♫ F♫
I♫ C♫ T♫ T♫ W♫ Y♫ A♫
B♫ A♫ V♫ S♫ C♫
L♫ I♫ S♫ W♫ I♫ W♫ S♫
A♫ T♫ V♫ T♫ W♫ P♫ I♫ M♫ B♫
S♫ R♫
W♫ T♫ S♫ O♫ S

1. I think expecting anyone to even potentially get it from the hard hint is absolutely bonkers. That's levels of deductive leaping that would require utter insanity.
2. Relying on an IRL reference like that is something you need to very carefully do, and can easily backfire.
3. How in the mother of heck this could potentially relate to the puzzle based on touching a glowing stone in some pattern is entirely beyond me.


Since the song refers to darkness and silence, I presume the glowing panel is actually a red herring:
I also presume the room is naturally dark, which is counteracted by how most would he holding a light source, like torches and lanterns. The solution would be to stifle all noises and turn off all such light sources. After being in such a state for a bit, the door will open.



So, in my humble opinion, a song from Simon and Garfunkel can't, and should never appear in a dungeon, in a fantasy setting! Full stop! How are the characters supposed to ever solve that puzzle when the solution is something that does not even exist in their world?... I mean even if the players guess it, their characters cant possible know. Even a high level wizard, who has maxed out his Knowledge (The Planes) and who has visited Earth, probably wont have picked up that song, and even if that character knew that song, he would probably never guess it because the creator of that dungeon will with a 99,9999999999999999% chance never have even heard of Earth, let alone Simon and Garfunkel...

I'm sorry, but this is an extremely poor choice of "puzzle" in my opinion... like SOO bad!

[Xervous]

As I feared it turned out to be a real world reference. Not only are such puzzles supremely dependent on the audience’s background, their inclusion is also a great way to undermine setting verisimilitude.

Absent knowledge of the song in question the “puzzle” is more like a cryptic password prompt the player is confronted with when booting up their uncle’s computer. Even with knowledge of the song it’s a brute force memory test to arrive at the relationship. Actual puzzles can be worked through. What is presented here is not unlike saying “the password is Kyle” and expecting the players to hit the keys in order to spell out the name of Elon Musk’s child.

[Biggus]

So this is a puzzle for a D20 Modern game, yes? Or the protagonists, AND the person making the puzzle, lived on our planet sometime after 1964 and then got turned into D&D characters and sent to a fantasy world via portal of some sort? And the party KNOWS that the person making the puzzle, like them, was sent from Earth after 1964

Yeah, it didn't even occur to me that it could be a song from Earth, because most fantasy games don't take place on Earth, or at least not in modern times. If it does, or the PCs and villain are at least from Earth, fair enough: otherwise it's not a fair puzzle.

[Mystral]

I got c. Sorry.

Edit: After reading the comments.. what? A Simon and Garfunkle song?

Just.. what were you thinking?

[Segev]

It is one of my favorite songs, and even after reading others suggesting the form the clue was taking, I stared at the “easy” clue and couldn’t figure out what song it was.

Even knowing the song, it is not obvious what to do. I have some guesses, but they vary even in theme and would resemble flailing about.

[Doctor Awkward]

Put me down with the consensus as well. While such a puzzle might be technically solvable, you cannot do it without explicitly using out of game knowledge that the characters would have no way to access. That's metagaming. That alone would make this not a good puzzle. But compounded with the fact that the solution is still unclear even if you know what the symbols represent.

Making good puzzles is difficult because how easily you can frustrate people by giving out too little information. A lot of the time you should be prepared to accept any reasonable solution your players present you with, even if it's not the one that you had planned. Your players are thinking about and approaching the situation from a very different position than you.

[Segev]

On the subject of puzzles rarely working out as intended by the writers, I'm running a Tomb of Annihilation game (5e, not 3.5, but the principle applies here), and of the shrines with puzzles to get the pieces needed to solve a bigger puzzle, all of which are spelled out with proper solutions in the module, my players have not approached ONE of them as the puzzle suggests. They've bypassed at least two of the puzzles entirely through brute force methods. I don't see this as a problem, but it does make the elaborate puzzles spelled out feel weird as to why they'd prevent anybody from getting the solution.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

So, in my humble opinion, a song from Simon and Garfunkel can't, and should never appear in a dungeon, in a fantasy setting! Full stop!

I know of exactly one way (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?121195-PrC-Contest-XIII-Music-and-Lyrics&p=6710302#post6710302) that that song showing up in a D&D context makes sense. :smallcool:

[MicHag]

OP here:

I kind of feel like some of the posts are unneccesarily rude, more so than i am used to at this forum. But i will not adress that any further.
I messed up the first post by naming the puzzles themselves hints, sorry for that.

The characters should be solving the puzzles, not the players
While i understand this, our group has never played this way, and we enjoy solving certain puzzles together as players (and not as the characters). While i understand this could be problematic in some groups, it will not be for us. We have some math and recently even a programming-based puzzles that our characters would never ever solve, but the players could, and these weren't mine btw, i was a player at the time.
If we enjoy it, i will let no one claim it should not be done!

The characters can not know this song, it belongs to "our Earth"
While i have thought of this, i chose to ignore it. Why wouldn't it possible for this song to exist as one of the most popular songs in this world? Like i said above, we solve these puzzles as players mostly, so there is no problem there either.

Have you ever used a flintlock pistol in D&D? where does this concept come from? or the use of swords for that matter? the language of english? Have you ever mixed certain concepts of fantasy worlds? You take a bit from Tolkien, from Harry Potter maybe? some concepts of other books.
But god forbid if you take something out of the real world! Sure, i understand the difference, but is it really such a wild not-done concept?

Have you ever used a saying ("Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice...") in a game? Those are all created on our earth, just like songs. And even with the examples i give, i still understand what you guys are saying, but is it really a very simple black and white?

If this is neccesary for the plot it could be problematic
But it's not, they solve the puzzle, or they do not.

They can just destroy the door or wall, or hire someone, or roll a 1d20 check
That is not how our group plays. The door and walls will not be able to be destroyed, the players will accept this without any problem. They will never try to solve the puzzle by the two latter options.

As a last note, i needed a bunch of puzzles for a certain goal. I have some already that would most likely be more to the liking of this forum, some of which will be solved by the characters and not the players. And i did realise before-hand that this was one of the "lesser" puzzles.

In the end, i did get my results. It turns out A was impossible, and in hindsight retarded for me to assume otherwise, and B is very hard but still do-able for some people in the forum and i expect my players will be able to solve it.

[Segev]

In the end, i did get my results. It turns out A was impossible, and in hindsight retarded for me to assume otherwise, and B is very hard but still do-able for some people in the forum and i expect my players will be able to solve it.

Did anybody actually get the solution to the puzzle, or just the translation of the clue from symbol-to-plaintext?

I still don't know how you actually solve the puzzle.

[MicHag]

Did anybody actually get the solution to the puzzle, or just the translation of the clue from symbol-to-plaintext?

I still don't know how you actually solve the puzzle.

I am not sure what you are saying. Someone (or it was two people right?) solved it by realising each letter is the first letter of the words of a song.

[Segev]

I am not sure what you are saying. Someone (or it was two people right?) solved it by realising each letter is the first letter of the words of a song.

Yes, but then what do you do with that knowledge?

Do you sing the song while pressing the glow-panel?

Do you douse all light then make sure nothing's touching the glow-panel and stand quietly?

Do you douse all light then sing the song?

Do you douse all light EXCEPT the glow-panel and listen for some other sound to give further clues?

Do you trace the song lyrics on the glow-panel with your finger?

[MicHag]

Yes, but then what do you do with that knowledge?


Ah yes, you stay silent for a certain time while touching the panel.

I have zero doubt that once the title of the song, "The Sound of Silence", is found, the party will get to that answer in at most a few tries taking mere minutes if not seconds. As you yourself did in your second try, even though you added some extra elements.

[Xervous]

I stand by my assessment of the passphrase being XÆA-12 with the hint being Kyle. Except you jump up and down while patting your head and rubbing your tummy.

Chancing upon the song association is one grand leap, having the solution to “read my mind” be a clue itself leading to content that is apparently optional leaves me pat- no scratching my head. It could be a specific baseball player’s on base percentage and the party gets a cookie if they (as players) happen to know it. The in game results are wholly removed from the player abilities only resolution mechanic. I’d rather bribe my GM with pizza.

[Max Caysey]

OP here:

I kind of feel like some of the posts are unneccesarily rude, more so than i am used to at this forum. But i will not adress that any further.
I messed up the first post by naming the puzzles themselves hints, sorry for that.

The characters should be solving the puzzles, not the players
While i understand this, our group has never played this way, and we enjoy solving certain puzzles together as players (and not as the characters). While i understand this could be problematic in some groups, it will not be for us. We have some math and recently even a programming-based puzzles that our characters would never ever solve, but the players could, and these weren't mine btw, i was a player at the time.
If we enjoy it, i will let no one claim it should not be done!

The characters can not know this song, it belongs to "our Earth"
While i have thought of this, i chose to ignore it. Why wouldn't it possible for this song to exist and one of the most popular songs in this world? Like i said above, we solve these puzzles as players mostly, so there is no problem there either.

Have you ever used a flintlock pistol in D&D? where does this concept come from? or the use of swords for that matter? the language of english? Have you ever mixed certain concepts of fantasy worlds? You take a bit from Tolkien, from Harry Potter maybe? some concepts of other books.
But god forbid if you take something out of the real world! Sure, i understand the difference, but is it really such a wild not-done concept?

Have you ever used a saying ("Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice...") in a game? Those are all created on our earth, just like songs. And even with the examples i give, i still understand what you guys are saying, but is it really a very simple black and white?

If this is neccesary for the plot it could be problematic
But it's not, they solve the puzzle, or they do not.

They can just destroy the door or wall, or hire someone, or roll a 1d20 check
That is not how our group plays. The door and walls will not be able to be destroyed, the players will accept this without any problem. They will never try to solve the puzzle by the two latter options.

As a last note, i needed a bunch of puzzles for a certain goal. I have some already that would most likely be more to the liking of this forum, some of which will be solved by the characters and not the players. And i did realise before-hand that this was one of the "lesser" puzzles.

In the end, i did get my results. It turns out A was impossible, and in hindsight retarded for me to assume otherwise, and B is very hard but still do-able for some people in the forum and i expect my players will be able to solve it.

Most of this should have been presented as a lead up to The puzzle! That way we would have known how you guys thought/ played and what you perceive as “rudeness” could have been avoided!

[Lyelle]

I was (c) as well.

For what it's worth OP, I think the puzzle as a concept is a great idea. However, as many others have hinted at, the structure itself lends to a great deal of frustration due to the sheer number of degrees of freedom in finding a solution. I immediately suspected that it was lyrics to some song/nursery rhyme, but even then, I couldn't make any headway in finding a match.

Ultimately, the best puzzles are the ones in which you can unravel the complexity piece by piece and feel as though you're making tangible progress. In this case, the players are immediately handed the most difficult part of the puzzle (matching an acronym to a modern day song), and expected to make a leap of insight in an ocean of possibilities. My suggestion would be to make certain letters glow when their corresponding word is spoken ("S" glows when someone says "silence"), or even just supplying the first word of the song (replace "H" with "Hello"). At least this way, you're providing breadcrumbs if the players get lost and/or drastically reducing the solution space.

[Darkfire]

Most people seem to have determined what the puzzle could be: the jump to then determining what it is specifically is entirely dependent on knowing it in detail (or enough detail) to recognise it (assuming they know it at all).

I was lucky to recognise the first & last lines: this happened to be something I hear referenced (typically in response to a jibe) on a semi-regular basis by people I routinely watch on Youtube and falls into the extremely narrow subset of songs that I know. I had to look up the rest of it for confirmation and to see the specifics (in case there were more explicit instructions) since I don't know the entire thing by heart.

If you think your players are up to it, by all means run with it but don't be surprised if you end up having to drop additional hints (unless you're literally going to have it playing in the background or something). "It's a song" is a daunting starting point with no further information beyond what's presented.

[JustIgnoreMe]

Ah yes, you stay silent for a certain time while touching the panel.
And since there is no reason for anyone to make any sound in the room, and since it will have been silent in the room before anyone enters, that means that the answer to the puzzle is... touch the panel. Which is literally the first thing anyone will try to do (probably with a 10ft pole after checking for traps, all of which is done in silence by default).

[MicHag]

And since there is no reason for anyone to make any sound in the room, and since it will have been silent in the room before anyone enters, that means that the answer to the puzzle is... touch the panel. Which is literally the first thing anyone will try to do (probably with a 10ft pole after checking for traps, all of which is done in silence by default).

"...while touching the panel!" and for a period of time (not 1 second), probably 1 minute.

I get a feeling people are trying their hardest to make this not work.

[KOLE]

Chalk me up for C here.

[Gavinfoxx]

"...while touching the panel!" and for a period of time (not 1 second), probably 1 minute.

I get a feeling people are trying their hardest to make this not work.

Could you please specify exactly how the puzzle guides the solver toward that action once they ID the song? What is the logical progression?

[Segev]

"...while touching the panel!" and for a period of time (not 1 second), probably 1 minute.

I get a feeling people are trying their hardest to make this not work.

The "for a period of time" is something that can fail to be found to work for any number of reasons, the simplest being, "Well, we held it for a while and nothing happened, so...." and they don't try that again. There's no indication in the puzzle how long to do it, so if it's long enough that anyone might start tapping their foot in boredom, it's going to risk them not holding it long enough.

Now, in a ttrpg, this is easily handled by simply assuming they hold it for long enough when they first say they're trying "I press the button and hold it while everyone is silent." If you answer, "Okay; after a minute of holding it and being silent, the door opens," that will work. You have, of course, provided information they lacked and assumed actions they didn't specify, in the form of it taking one minute and assuming they hold it at least that long. But it works in a ttrpg and I doubt they'll cry "foul" over the puzzle being solved. (They certainly would if a trap triggered after a full minute. "Hey! We never said we'd hold it THAT long!")

If, on the other hand, you actually ask them, "How long do you hold it?" or you say, "It's been one round; do you keep silent and holding it?" "It's been two rounds, do you...?" etc., until 10 rounds have passed, you risk the players getting bored or giving up, thinking it isn't happening. Remember, they don't know this is the solution and that holding it for long enough is the only question. What if they say, "We hold it for 10 seconds?" Especially in response to you asking "how long?"

Note that "How long?" can be a hint in and of itself, that it matters. Because "you push it and nothing happens" or "you hold it for a while and nothing happens" both are signals that it won't matter how long they hold it. It's giving the stop condition when they don't know even if there is one.

So, again, it can work in a ttrpg, and may well work at your table, depending how you run it. But the "obviousness" of it is questionable, and the amount of autonomy you leave them once they've figured out the song and the "be quiet while touching it" part will determine a lot about how effective it is.


And yes, "one minute" is a placeholder for however long you require it. If that time is sufficiently short that anybody deliberately holding it "for a bit" would hold it that long, they might do so accidentally. Any longer than "potentially accidentally doing it" means they may also determine nothing is happening and stop before the time's up.

This is actually a major problem for my own decision-making at times: how long do I wait before I decide that something isn't working? Do I give it just a moment or two more, or give up?

[Railak]

Yeah, I was completely stumped, and reading through the comments I actually agree with most of them.. and I know the song but I'd have never thought the two were even remotely linked.

Personally I love doing puzzles, and in a D&D game I do like the players to actually figure the puzzle out, but from all my experience as a DM and as a player, offering the same hint twice one just an easier version isn't really how things work in role-playing games, or escape rooms. The players are going to look at EVERYTHING, because it gives them the best chance of getting through the puzzle. I would suggest the second hint should be the first and the second actual hint should point them in the direction of the artist.

Edit: and I know you're kinda fixated on the minute thing, but how about something a little more related to the puzzle itself? Like the duration of time if the verses?

[Maat Mons]

OP, your puzzle reminds me of one from Uru: Path of the Shell. If you like this sort of thing, you can buy Uru: Complete Chronicles on Steam for $10. If you play it, I'd be very interested to learn how long it takes you to solve that one.

[MicHag]

Personally I love doing puzzles, and in a D&D game I do like the players to actually figure the puzzle out, but from all my experience as a DM and as a player, offering the same hint twice one just an easier version isn't really how things work in role-playing games, or escape rooms.

I was very unclear in my opening post. It was never intended to give them both, but one of the hints (which weren't even hints at all, bad choice of words), and in hindsight, only the second one.


I would suggest the second hint should be the first and the second actual hint should point them in the direction of the artist.

Thanks, i could work some extra hints in there.


The "for a period of time" is something that can fail to be found to work for any number of reasons, the simplest being, "Well, we held it for a while and nothing happened, so...." and they don't try that again. There's no indication in the puzzle how long to do it, so if it's long enough that anyone might start tapping their foot in boredom, it's going to risk them not holding it long enough.


Once they offer the solution about being silent for a period, the puzzle is solved. I will not ask them to be actually silent, or start asking how long they are silent.

I will not allow them to touch the tablet and let them pass because they were silent for a second, but if someone says they are holding the button, and at the table everyone is silently working on the problem (on paper), or looking at me in suspense, where i keep an awkardly long silence (and that doesn't have to be a minute), it could simply open without them knowing why.


OP, your puzzle reminds me of one from Uru: Path of the Shell. If you like this sort of thing, you can buy Uru: Complete Chronicles on Steam for $10. If you play it, I'd be very interested to learn how long it takes you to solve that one.

Unfortunately, i don't think i have the time to start playing a game now, but i will keep it in mind.


Most people seem to have determined what the puzzle could be: the jump to then determining what it is specifically is entirely dependent on knowing it in detail (or enough detail) to recognise it (assuming they know it at all).

I was lucky to recognise the first & last lines: this happened to be something I hear referenced (typically in response to a jibe) on a semi-regular basis by people I routinely watch on Youtube and falls into the extremely narrow subset of songs that I know. I had to look up the rest of it for confirmation and to see the specifics (in case there were more explicit instructions) since I don't know the entire thing by heart.

"Hell Darkness my old friend" is (at least to me) a very memorable line, it's even a meme! (link) (https://www.unrulystowaway.com/hello-darkness-my-old-friend-meme/) and a acronym (another link) (https://www.google.com/search?q=hdmof&oq=hdmof)
You apparently got the answer without knowing the full song, i know for a fact that at least two of my players do know the song by heart, and i have no doubt that the other three know the song and at least those same lines you know (and probably more). I am not sure if that is an age-thing, but i would assume since this is the 3.5 forum, that most people are of sufficient age to know this song.

For me this thread is done. I have what i need, and i understand that most (if not all) of you dislike the puzzle, and that is fine.

[Segev]

"Hello Darkness my old friend" is (at least to me) a very memorable line, it's even a meme!
You apparently got the answer without knowing the full song, i know for a fact that at least two of my players do know the song by heart, and i have no doubt that the other 3 know the song and at least those same lines you know (and probably more). I am not sure if that is an age-thing, but i would assume since this is the 3.5 forum, that most people are of sufficient age to know this song.

For me this thread is done. I have what i need, and i understand that most (if not all) of you dislike the puzzle, and that is fine.

As a warning, I also know the song by heart, and it's one of my favorites, and I spent a good 10 minutes trying to figure out what the song was after somebody pointed out it was a song. So it may be less obvious than you think.

I could be wrong; maybe they'll get it. But it's possible to know the song through and through, really like the song, and still not pick up on it. For me, the lack of melody or cadence really throws my ability to call it up. I had to know what it was to see it there.

[MicHag]

As a warning, I also know the song by heart, and it's one of my favorites, and I spent a good 10 minutes trying to figure out what the song was after somebody pointed out it was a song. So it may be less obvious than you think.

I could be wrong; maybe they'll get it. But it's possible to know the song through and through, really like the song, and still not pick up on it. For me, the lack of melody or cadence really throws my ability to call it up. I had to know what it was to see it there.

I am sorry, i did not mean to say that everybody (including myself) would have gotten the answer just by knowing it.
I merely wanted to point out that all of my players do know the song, and at least one of them knows the...what is it called....music to actually play it on a piano and sing it.

None of that are guarantees that the players will get it, but it is also no problem if they do not solve the puzzle at all. But i do believe it helps if you are so familiar with the song, that you know more than just those 2 lines. And at least the musician at our group gets a puzzle that is remotely in his field for a change.

[KillianHawkeye]

I would suggest displaying the correctly timed musical notes for each word (i.e. some quarter notes or half notes for the longer ones) rather than using the same double eighth-notes symbol on them all. Perhaps this was a limitation of posting the puzzle here, but having the timing of each word probably would have helped me figure out the song.

With puzzles, more information is always better.

[Buufreak]

I get a feeling people are trying their hardest to make this not work.

You get that feeling because these are the opinions of people who have played at tables with convoluted puzzles that have some off the wall solution. It isn't people trying to poke holes in your design, it is merely them saying "okay, but what if no one does that, ever?"

For arguments sake, I would have never gotten this. I thought about it for literally hours. It took reading about 20 comments down to get it, and even then I had the thought of "that can't be it" as I go back to the hint and compare.

Tell ya what. I'm genuinely curious. If you would be so kind (and I am under the assumption this game is played live in person), time to see how long it takes for someone to actually figure out the solution. Even if it is accidental. I'd just like to know.


And at least the musician at our group gets a puzzle that is remotely in his field for a change.

That's perhaps the best attitude out of the thread. Playing to a player's strengths so everyone gets a chance to shine. Me gusta.

[SpyOne]

As I feared it turned out to be a real world reference. Not only are such puzzles supremely dependent on the audienceÂ’s background, their inclusion is also a great way to undermine setting verisimilitude.

I am reminded of a puzzle in an official 1e module from TSR.
The party has to move through a group of narrow passages each only big enough for one person, all of which end in the same room.
The floor of that room has a checkered pattern. Trying to move through the room causes damage, but only under certain conditions and with no clear indication what those conditions are.

It turns out that the way to cross without taking damage was to follow a path that would be permitted for a chess piece that started on the square you started on. That is, if you entered on the square for a bishop, you must move like a bishop.

Clearly the designer never considered that maybe none of the players (including the DM) would know how to play chess.


I'm kind of divided on this. On the one hand, the characters have no chance of knowing popular songs from our world. On the other, the players have no chance of knowing a popular song from the character's world.

Puzzles themselves are kind of hard to do in an RPG. I've tried a few times to play a "solve a mystery" adventure, and I usually come up against a problem caused because I am not a detective but my character is. How am I supposed to know that would have been a good place to search for clues? My idiot character missed the important clue because I didn't specifically tell him to search? Shouldn't he have pointed out to me that this was the kind of place clues are found?

[JustIgnoreMe]

I will not allow them to touch the tablet and let them pass because they were silent for a second, but if someone says they are holding the button, and at the table everyone is silently working on the problem (on paper), or looking at me in suspense, where i keep an awkardly long silence (and that doesn't have to be a minute), it could simply open without them knowing why.
So you’re basing it on whether the players are silent, not their characters?

[MicHag]

Tell ya what. I'm genuinely curious. If you would be so kind (and I am under the assumption this game is played live in person), time to see how long it takes for someone to actually figure out the solution. Even if it is accidental. I'd just like to know.

I will try to remember, but this is part of a very large open world campaign. I try to create as much of the world right now, before the campaign starts in about a month. I have been working on it for 2 years now and as much of the world i can create now, it saves me time when they actually get to the part, and it leaves more time to spend on other details. When (and even if) they get to this puzzle, which can be in 2 months, but could also be in 2 years, i will try to remember this thread.

My prediction: they solve it within 5 minutes, we will see how far i am off ;)


I would suggest displaying the correctly timed musical notes for each word (i.e. some quarter notes or half notes for the longer ones) rather than using the same double eighth-notes symbol on them all. Perhaps this was a limitation of posting the puzzle here, but having the timing of each word probably would have helped me figure out the song.

With puzzles, more information is always better.

That is an excellent suggestion, i could not do it in this format, but i will when i present it to the players.

[Lapak]

I am reminded of a puzzle in an official 1e module from TSR.
The party has to move through a group of narrow passages each only big enough for one person, all of which end in the same room.
The floor of that room has a checkered pattern. Trying to move through the room causes damage, but only under certain conditions and with no clear indication what those conditions are.

It turns out that the way to cross without taking damage was to follow a path that would be permitted for a chess piece that started on the square you started on. That is, if you entered on the square for a bishop, you must move like a bishop.

Clearly the designer never considered that maybe none of the players (including the DM) would know how to play chess.
This immediately reminded of 'The Land Beyond the Magic Mirror', the alice-in-wonderland themed adventure sequel to 'Dungeonland' that you could reach through a mirror in the dungeons of Castle Greyhawk, written by Gygax.

I own that module and this is ringing all kinds of bells, so I pulled it out. First impression: this thing is chock-a-block full of references to the 'real' world, even beyond the Alice theme, just for comparison's sake. I don't tend to care for that myself in my games, but there it is.

Second surprise: there is a chessboard-movement sequence, but rather than auto-damage it's more like "whenever the party defeats a monster on the 'board' that represents a piece, they are whisked to another square that would be a reasonable chess for for that piece. If there's something else there, they have to fight it; if not, they are free to move anywhere or rest where they are." (But resting or changing squares lets the 'other side' make a move and a chess piece may move in and attack them.)

Third surprise: the entire chess-movement is explicitly labeled as an optional rule: "It cannot be assumed that each and every DM is thoroughly conversant with the rules of chess. However, the true challenge of the Chessboard Fields requires such knowledge. Therefore, the following Optional Events Rules are given to those DMs who understand the play of chess."

[SpyOne]

Third surprise: the entire chess-movement is explicitly labeled as an optional rule: "It cannot be assumed that each and every DM is thoroughly conversant with the rules of chess. However, the true challenge of the Chessboard Fields requires such knowledge. Therefore, the following Optional Events Rules are given to those DMs who understand the play of chess."

I believe Ghost Tower of Inverness contained no such disclaimer. :)

[Lapak]

I believe Ghost Tower of Inverness contained no such disclaimer. :)
Man, they just really liked chess puzzles in those days I guess!

In fairness (sorta), I think Inverness started life as a tournament module where the whole point was it wasn't a normal adventure played normally but a deathtrap-style dungeon set up so that a party could 'win' by making it further through?