Hexblade Kit-Bashing and Bladesong

[CharacterIV]

Hey all,

Complicated problem, I'll try to keep it short. Running a home-brewed campaign from Level 1, and I have a player who can be... demanding. He's a super-nice guy but puts a lot of stock in story over mechanics, so sees mechanics as essentially malleable to fit a character's development.

Basically, his character is a remnant of an ancient advanced culture, one that would have developed a technique such as Bladesong, but he prefers the Warlock kit to Wizard, and that's justified within the story as well. So he essentially wants to fit Bladesong into the Hexblade package somehow, and I was hoping to recruit some advice on how best to do this mechanically.

The Player sees it as balanced to break Bladesong's four components (+Int added to AC, Adv. on Concentration checks, +10' movement and +Int to Acrobatics) into two separate Warlock Invocations, which he would then take both of at Warlock 2. This has my Balance-Sense tingling, because we're moving a signature subclass feature from Bladesinger that's (by RAW) gated by race into a subclass that's already got plenty of treats. (Note: it's not clear if the player means the two Invocations would always be active like Monk/Barb Unarmored Defense, or if they'd require Bonus Actions to activate. I'm strongly leaning towards the latter.)

I'm thinking we may need to strip out some other subclass features in order to make this even remotely balanced, or offer as an Invocation something LIKE Bladesong, but isn't. "I Can't Believe It's Not Bladesong," or the like.

I'm generally REALLY permissive as a DM, but I have a strong belief intra-party balance is important (I always do Point-Buy for stats) so I'm in a bit of a pickle here, and hoping to get some counsel.

[Seekergeek]

Well first off, is the plan to still tie the benefits to the Int mod or is this all shifting over to charisma? If the answer is charisma, I'd call it a day with a hard no.

Hexblade doesn't need much help being a beastly gish. The bonus to AC is overkill as the hexblade gets improved armour and shield proficancies. There's also the matter of the bladesinger being limited to one handed weapons and being MAD.

I'd be inclined to try and accommodate the player by giving an invocation that gives a bonus to movement speed and con saves for a minute as a bonus action, maybe. That's about it.

EDIT: If he really wants it for narrative motivations over mechanices, I might be tempted to swap bladesong in whole cloth and take out hex warrior and hexblade's curse in exchange.

[Aeriox]

Well if bladesinging still prohibits Medium armor and shields you wouldn’t have much as much of a problem, especially if it still keys off of int. You would have to have a decent dex, int, cha, and con to really do well in melee.

[Brawnspear]

You could just straight up swap hexblades curse for bladesong (but based on Charisma) They both give different defensive and offensive capabilities and trigger at similar levels, though bladesong frontloads defense and gives the offense later, whereas curse starts with offense.

Of course i generally only consider this type of stuff if the player is single classing, too hard to balance stuff out if you start giving custom things to a player that then multiclasses to take advantage of your kindness.

Basically the player swaps Hexblades Curse, Armor of Hexes and Master of Hexes for Bladesong, Song of Defense and Song of Victory. Biggest change would be getting Bladesong at level 1 which makes the first level of Hexblade even tastier, thus my suggestion against multiclassing :D.

Bladesong does require you to wear light armor with no shield which kinda kills the extra goodies the hexblade gets on that count though, but it is available twice per short rest as opposed to the curse which is just available once and only good on a single target.

[Segev]

What is he overall looking at as a build?

Is he planning to take Bladesong's Int-based benefits and make them Cha-based, or leave them Int-based? Does he want to recast WArlock as Int-based?

Does he just want the Pact of the Blade? Is that why he likes Warlock better? Or is there something else he likes in it?

When a player has two classes he wants stuff from, and wants to try to mingle them into one, it's very important to identify what he does and does not want. Sometimes, what he wants, when summed, is just fine. Other times, he wants too much, and can't have both without it being overpowered. And sometimes, he wants LESS than what either offers, but is trying to skate out of one because the stuff he doesn't want from it is stuff he actively doesn't want, as opposed to it merely being stuff he could take or leave.

Shameless self promotion (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?587734-Turning-the-Hexblade-quot-Patron-quot-into-modular-powers), here, but I broke down the Hexblade Patron into a set of spells and Invocations. Might help with inspiration.

Looking up Bladesinger, though...

Make it a Patron, straight-up.

No Hexblade or Hexblade powers. Just take the Bladesinger wizard "school" and replace all references to "Intelligence" with "Charisma," and make the level 2 ability a level 1 ability. It should be fine, balance-wise. Call it the "Seldarine Patron."

[RSP]

Not sure what the issue is staying Hexblade Blade Pact sans any BS. No need for +Int to weapon damage as Blade Pact already gets that at 12 via invocation. No need for Extra Attack as Blade Pact gets that at 5. That knocks out 50% of what BS gets.

So his “backstory” requires the character has Song of Defense and +Int to AC? Must be one detailed backstory but okay.

Well SoD isn’t going to work nearly as well on a Warlock d/t SR slots. I mean, if they really want to use their 3 slots at level 11 as 25 HPs of damage absorption, I’m not sure that’s a problem, assuming it costs an invocation. Essentially it’s the same thing as having used that slot on AoA but without the retribution damage. An invocation (min level 10) for on-demand, non retributive AoA is fine, I’d say.

So the only issue would be +Int to AC, 2x per SR, as a BA, no 2h weapons, no shield. As long as you don’t switch the casting/weapon attack stat to Int, or the +Int to +Cha, it’s probably not horrible as another invocation (min level 3). I’d imagine for most of the campaign this is a +2 or +3 to AC. A shield would get you that, and would be active all the time. (Note: Headband of Intellect is beneficial here, but roughly the same as a Ring of Protection).

So you’d have Thirsting a Blade, Lifedrinker, “SoD/not-AoA” and “Bladesong” all as invocations. As well as, I’m assuming, Armor of Shadows. Then just one of one of Eldritch Smite, Improved Pact Weapon, or AB up to level 15.

I don’t think you’re breaking anything.

[Keravath]

I don't think it is that big a deal necessarily as long as the invocations won't work with medium armor and a shield AND are limited in the number of uses just like bladesong (I think it is twice/SR ?)

The warlock would be limited to light armor without a shield so their AC wouldn't be ridiculous and since AC requires dex, the warlock would have to spend ASI on dex as well as charisma losing the SAD aspect of a hexblade.

Requiring two invocations for it is actually giving up a lot. Consider that the character is probably blade pact and using two invocations for this would prevent them taking improved pact weapon. At level 5, they would have these two invocations plus thirsting blade for two attacks. They won't have a free invocation until at least level 7.

I'd also be tempted to make it a double invocation - one invocation - two slots - so that the benefits can be triggered by one bonus action and so the player can't choose to take just one of the two invocations.

[CharacterIV]

Thanks very much for the insight so far, everybody.

Some clarifications:

The Player intends the HexBladesong to be based off Charisma, as it's the Warlock casting attribute the same way that Intelligence is the Bladesinger casting attribute. I'm thinking one potential balance is to key it off a secondary stat, possibly Constitution, because he isn't intending to go hard into Charisma -- see below.

The Player is planning for a Dexterity build featuring the appeal of Hex and Dual Wielding. He's starting with a level of Rogue to get in Sneak Attack to this mix as well. His approach is to absolutely maximize his AC while also being mobile and having Great Weapon/Dual Wield style DPR. In any case, Dex will be his max stat, not Cha.

Speaking to my permissiveness as a DM, I've already allowed the Player to use the old UA Warforged, where they get +Prof to AC as part of Integrated Protection. This also fits story because, as I said, his character is a relic of an ancient advanced culture and they built their Warforged differently, which GENERALLY I was fine with, until we started getting into this Bladesong thing and looking at 20+ AC at early levels while ALSO having Dual Wield DPR and spellcasting/mobility. As I see it, there's nothing wrong with 20+ AC at early levels when you're out there tanking with Sword-and-Board as a Fighter, Paladin, Forge Cleric, something like that, but when you stack in Warlock/Rogue DPR on top it gets nutty.

Like I said, this guy is an overall EXCELLENT player and a good friend of mine, any table is lucky to have him. He's always contributive and well-mannered in the group, he gets into the story and role-plays, but he has this ONE little blemish of believing mechanics are totally modular, able to be lifted in and out in service of character backstory.

One idea I'm also considering is considering whatever exchange I make being considered an Effective Level, and giving every other player some kind of "EL 1" benefit, a feat of my choosing or porting in of other class features. I'm not concerned about OP PCs, because I can always just ramp up the difficulty. I'm concerned about ONE PC being OP and leaving the others in the dust in terms of contribution (mostly in combat.)

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I will just tell him to take two levels in wizard for bladesong

[Segev]

He's planning to dual-wield while going for sneak attack? It's...not as good as it was in 3e. The extra attack is an extra CHANCE to get sneak attack damage (if, say, your first attack missed), but you only get sneak attack damage once per turn, now. Not on every attack.

What is it he likes about Warlock over Wizard for this build?





Tangentially related, is anybody else disappointed that Bladesinger's "Extra Attack" feature isn't "Spell and Blade," instead? Where "Spell and Blade" would read, "Starting at 6th level, when you use your action to cast a spell, you may make a melee attack with a weapon wielded in one hand," or possibly even "...you may use your bonus action to make a melee attack with a weapon wielded in one hand?" The original Bladesinger kit was all about dual wielding magic and sword.

Also, weird that it gives a proficiency in weapons at 2nd level; you have to be an elf to get in, and they all have the proficiency for the signature weapons of the Bladesinger.

[Bobthewizard]

I don't have a problem with this as long as you keep the restrictions - twice per short rest, keys off INT, bonus action to start, cannot wear medium armor, shield, or use a two handed weapon. I think it's a pretty substantial cost in order to get 10' extra speed, advantage on acrobatics, and INT bonus to concentration saves. Plus they are giving up two invocations, including improved pact weapon. I think it's mechanically worse than taking other good invocations.

I would put the AC and CON save bonus together. The AC bonus is the worst for a hexblade while the bonus to concentration saves is the best. Then put the speed and acrobatics advantage together, but make sure it's all one song that they can use 2x per short rest.

I don't think you could let them take the first invocation (AC and concentration saves) with any other patron, though.

[Vogie]

If he really wants it for narrative motivations over mechanices, I might be tempted to swap bladesong in whole cloth and take out hex warrior and hexblade's curse in exchange.

This is my suggestion. I'd only allow 1 bladesong a rest at level 1, then it goes to 2 at level 2. I'd also switch it to an Int-based warlock, as some already do - but still have things like Agonizing blast/Lifedrinker key off of Charisma. That gives the PC a choice - s/he can focus on defenses and spells with Intellect, or go MAD for more smashing power

[ZRN]

He's a super-nice guy but puts a lot of stock in story over mechanics, so sees mechanics as essentially malleable to fit a character's development.

Basically, his character is a remnant of an ancient advanced culture, one that would have developed a technique such as Bladesong, but he prefers the Warlock kit to Wizard, and that's justified within the story as well. So he essentially wants to fit Bladesong into the Hexblade package somehow, and I was hoping to recruit some advice on how best to do this mechanically.


I mean, if he puts stock in story over mechanics, he can just play a straight Hexblade and call his use of Armor of Shadow, Hex, etc. a "bladesong."

If I can ask, what's the concept of this character? He's an ancient warforged mage with good mobility and defensive capabilities who dual-wields blades, which sounds fun, but if his argument is just "he should be good at everything because he's from a super-cool ancient culture," that sounds like he just wants to be a few levels higher than everybody else. And I believe you that he's not a jerk, so I don't think that's it!

What do you mean his ancient culture "would have developed a technique such as Bladesong"? Bladesong is a wizard thing and the character isn't a wizard. Do you just mean that the character should have better AC because he's hyper-aware of his surroundings? If so, doesn't the proficiency bonus to AC (and/or Armor of Shadow) already cover that?

If you're having a blast playing the way you do then just ignore this suggestion, but I find it's easier (on both ends) for players to be kept pretty strictly by-the-book on their character builds (I typically only make exceptions for rules changes that are fairly neutral or detrimental to the character's power level, like switching warlock to Int), and a kind DM can play to their strengths and address any major weaknesses through magic item distribution. That also helps party balance because you can dole out those magic items as needed.

For this character in particular, maybe he can seek out "crystalline discs" of Matrix-style programming upgrades that boost his abilities. E.g.:

Disc of the Death Trance
Requires attunement by a warforged character. Twice per day, the character can spend a bonus action to overclock their motor functions and enter a "death trance," during which time they can add their Charisma bonus to AC and Dexterity checks. The trance lasts for up to one minute unless the character chooses to dismiss it early.

[jmartkdr]

snip

Also, weird that it gives a proficiency in weapons at 2nd level; you have to be an elf to get in, and they all have the proficiency for the signature weapons of the Bladesinger.

Except that they don't get rapier proficiency as elves, (and only drow get scimitars) and very few bladesingers are strong enough to be rocking longswords without a major drop in attack power.

[Segev]

Except that they don't get rapier proficiency as elves, (and only drow get scimitars) and very few bladesingers are strong enough to be rocking longswords without a major drop in attack power.

Unless they had no clue they would pick Bladesinger at second level, this is one of those areas where I think the player building towards his goal is perfectly fine. "Most Bladesingers" should start as unusually strong wizards, in my opinion. Their entire playstyle is going to be about getting into melee and mid-range for attacks and spellcasting at close range. One of the complaints I agree with about the Pact of the Blade Warlock is that they are forced to start as one play style (very close to pure caster) and then switch to their "real" style at level 3, with little ability to build towards it well without looking more than a little silly ("I'm a full caster wading into melee with a club! Fear me and my strength-based clubbing!") and they can't even get mage armor before level 2! The Bladesinger - due to being a compulsory elf - absolutely can build towards his level 2 choice at level one: have a bit higher strength than normal and take mage armor as one of your first level spells. You now are actually a passable warrior for level 1. Not great, but not horrifically gimped. And you still have one more "big trick" spell and all your cantrips at your fingertips.

One might argue that the overall build of a Bladesinger demands dexterity, since they only have mage armor or (worse) light armor, and thus need Dexterity for their AC. That's fair, I agree. A Bladesinger can be super-MAD if they rely on Strength. I think it would have just been...better and more thematic (and in keeping with the whole reason Bladesinger is restricted to elves and elves have those weapon proficiencies) to not grant additional proficiencies, but... give them something else to alleviate the pressure to go triple-MAD. Biting the bullet and giving them Medium or even Heavy Armor, or letting them add Int to AC all the time instead of just when Bladesinging (here is where "must have one hand free or only holding spellcasting implements" would be a useful restriction, and keeping the restriction to light armor and no shields, would be useful). Alternatively, if you don't want to address the AC directly, give them magic weapon if they don't already have it (and a bonus 1st level spell pick if they do), and the subclass feature ability to not need to concentrate on magic weapon as long as they're the ones wielding the enchanted weapon.

I'm quibbling over small things, but when dealing with a subclass that has this kind of history and is so tied to a particular race, making its mechanics align with the mechanics of the race and the historical reason why the class was invented...it's the small things that make or break it, in my opinion.