Double checking something when it comes to Psionic item crafting

[inuyasha]

Been a while since I've posted here! I feel like this has probably been asked, but I haven't found a definitive answer... when I'm crafting a psionic item, augmented above its minimum cost, does this increase its effective power level for price purposes?

Like, if I'm making a command word item based on the power of Vigor, augmenting it to Manifester Level 3, is it now a second level power because it costs 3 power points? I'm not entirely sure how this works, and I just want to be 100% clear.

[Segev]

I hope someone else answers, as I’m curious and can’t find a definitive one.

However, my instinct is that it remains a 1st level power. If we were discussing spells, they would be governed by the caster level of the item but retain their spell level. Same here. Despite cost parities, a 2nd level power is still supposed to be better and stronger than a first level power augmented to 3 pp.

[Nifft]

SRD example here: https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/dorjes.htm



1 Some dorjes have higher manifester levels than the minimum power level, which give them commensurately higher costs.


Looks like the answer is yes, you pay as though the power were higher level.

[Segev]

SRD example here: https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/dorjes.htm



Looks like the answer is yes, you pay as though the power were higher level.

That’s saying that the 1st level power with a 3rd level manifester costs more than listed for a first level power with a first level manifester, not that it costs like a 2nd level power.

[upho]

Been a while since I've posted here!Nice to see you popping in again!


I feel like this has probably been asked, but I haven't found a definitive answer... when I'm crafting a psionic item, augmented above its minimum cost, does this increase its effective power level for price purposes?

Like, if I'm making a command word item based on the power of Vigor, augmenting it to Manifester Level 3, is it now a second level power because it costs 3 power points? I'm not entirely sure how this works, and I just want to be 100% clear.For dorjes, power stones and psicrowns (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Psionic_Items#Creating_Psionic_Items): yes, the power is treated as if being increased by one level for each +2 increase in ML (i.e. for each 2 PP it can be augmented with):

"To create a dorje, a character needs a small supply of materials, the most obvious being a chunk of crystal or the crystal shards of the dorje to be carved from or assembled. The cost of the materials is subsumed in the cost of creating the dorje—375 gp × the level of the power × the level of the manifester. Dorjes are always fully charged (50 charges) when created.

Alternatively, if you want to have a higher manifester level in the dorje, you must pay for the dorje as if the power was one level higher for each additional two manifester levels you want. For example, energy missile is a 2nd-level kineticist power with a minimum manifester level of 3rd. If you wanted to make a dorje of energy missile with a manifester level of 8th (five higher than the minimum), you would pay for the creation of the dorje as if energy missile was a 5th-level power. If an augmentable power is incorporated into a dorje at a higher manifester level than the minimum level required to manifest the power, each discharge of the power from the dorje is augmented to the limit of that higher manifester level."

...

"To create a power stone, a character needs a supply of incense and fine etching tools, the cost of which is subsumed in the cost of encoding the power stone—12.5 gp × the level of the power × the level of the manifester. All materials used to imprint a power stone must be fresh and unused. A character must pay the full cost for encoding each power stone no matter how many times she previously has imprinted the same power.

Alternatively, if you want to have a higher manifester level in the power stone, you must pay for the power stone as if the power was one level higher for each additional two manifester levels you want. For example, energy missile is a 2nd-level kineticist power with a minimum manifester level of 3rd. If you wanted to make a power stone of energy missile with a manifester level of 8th (five higher than the minimum), you would pay for the creation of the power stone as if energy missile was a 5th-level power. If an augmentable power is incorporated into a power stone at a higher manifester level than the minimum level required to manifest the power, when the power is manifested from the power stone, it is augmented to the limit of that higher manifester level."

...

"Lesser psicrowns cost 100 gp × the level of the power × the level of the manifester for each power stored in the psicrown. Greater psicrowns cost double the cost of lesser psicrowns (200 gp x the level of the power x the level of the manifester for each power stored in the psicrown), and true psicrowns cost double the cost of greater psicrowns (400 gp x the level of the power x the level of the manifester for each power stored in the psicrown). Psicrowns are always created with full power points and have a maximum number of power points equal to ten times the psicrown’s daily recharge rate. The type of a specific psicrown determines its daily recharge rate: 1/3 psicrown’s manifester level (round down) for lesser, 1/2 psicrown’s manifester level (round up) for greater, and equal to psicrown’s manifester level for true.

If the manifester level of the psicrown is higher than the minimum manifester level needed to manifest the highest level power stored in the psicrown, you must pay for the psicrown as if the highest-level power is one level higher for each additional two manifester levels. The minimum manifester level for a psicrown is 8th for lesser, 11th for greater, and 14th for true."
For other items: no, they use the same guidelines as magic items based on spell, and aren't treated as if having an increased level because of increased ML.

[Segev]

Thanks for finding that! A disappointing answer, but it’s nice to know the rules for sure.

[inuyasha]

Huh, that's interesting that it's separated by category like that... thank you though! On the one hand, higher level powers are better than lower level augmented ones, but on the other, Psionic powers don't really have lesser/greater variants like their equivalent spells- like Metaphysical Weapon for example. So I guess it's a bit of an odd rule, but I'll go with it!

Again, thank you! I'm gonna try to participate more here, I've missed these forums. :smile:

[Elkad]

No.

Same as if you make a cl7 wand of magic missile.
You pay for the higher caster/manifester level only.

[upho]

A disappointing answer, but it’s nice to know the rules for sure.
Huh, that's interesting that it's separated by category like that... thank you though! On the one hand, higher level powers are better than lower level augmented ones, but on the other, Psionic powers don't really have lesser/greater variants like their equivalent spells- like Metaphysical Weapon for example. So I guess it's a bit of an odd rule, but I'll go with it!I agree it's a bit odd as well as understandable due to the additional oomph ML grants augmentable powers (in comparison to what CL grants most spells).

And I also agree it's a bit disappointing, but at least from an overall design PoV, I believe the only bad effect is that it somewhat limits the general utility and versatility especially a mid-/high-level martial character can gain from the related items (most notably dorjes of lower level buff powers), which in turn may limit the possible mechanical variety of such characters. And this is IME only noticeable enough to motivate using a house rule if all of the following is more true than false:

The game and party is balanced for PCs with a general "mechanical adventuring power" considerably higher than that required by Paizo APs run as written.
A number of non-caster/-manifester character concepts can't be made mechanically powerful, playable and/or fun enough without one or more lower level powers.
The power(s) in question can't be incarnated (at least not cost-efficiently enough).
The power(s) in question can't be augmented (at least not nearly enough to motivate the higher cost of an increased ML).
There are no worthwhile higher level versions or other substitutes of the power(s) in question.
The power(s) in question won't be viable if having an ML much lower than the PCs' level (too poor duration, resistance to dispel attempts, etc).

Since the above actually happens to be largely true in at least the long-running campaign I run, I've introduced a house rule to that game which simply allows for the existence of versions of the psionic items in question, using the old price formulas (same as those of the equivalent magic items) but also including powers which can't be augmented regardless of ML.


Thanks for finding that!
Again, thank you!You're welcome!


I'm gonna try to participate more here, I've missed these forums. :smile:You better, 'cause I'm pretty sure these forums have missed you too! :smalltongue:


Same as if you make a cl7 wand of magic missile.
You pay for the higher caster/manifester level only.This is incorrect according to the current RAW. See my previous post for quotes of (and links to) the actual rules.