Dragons as a class -how does it compare?

[ChudoJogurt]

I'm thinking of introducing dragons as NPCs in my game, but I'm having a hard time figuring out how they compare to normal adventurer classes.

From what I gathered, then dragons have following traits:


12-sided Hit Dice.
Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter).
Good Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves.
Skill points equal to (6 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.
Traits
A dragon possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in the description of a particular kind).

Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision.
Immunity to magic sleep effects and paralysis effects.
Proficient with its natural weapons only unless humanoid in form (or capable of assuming humanoid form), in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with no armor.
Dragons eat, sleep, and breathe.
(srd)

Now all dragons are not created equal, but for the sake of simplicity, I'm using the following progression:


--2d8 Breath Weapon/3 levels every 1d4 rounds
--+2 to all mental Attributes, Con and Str every/3 levels
--Large size at level 10
--Huge size at level 16
--3+ HD Natural Armor
--Bite attack, 2 Claws starting level 9, Wings and tail starting level 12, all size-appropriate.
--Fly speed 90 with progressing maneuverability.
--Permanent True Sight, Detect Magic at will
Plus ability to shapeshift into a humanoid some number of times per day.


No further spells or spellikes until epic levels.


So... It has HP and BAB of a barbarian, saves of a monk and skillmonkey-level skills. And it has ridiculous AC since Natural Armor stacks with armor armor.
On the other hand as classfeatures go, it's kinda lacklustre.
So, at the same HD and same WBL and same everything else, how would that compare with average (mid-op Tier 3) adventurer?

[ExLibrisMortis]

I think you've got all the major points there: dragons have good numbers, but they're a bit dull as (combat) options go.

Tier-wise, your dragon class is in that annoying place where they're clearly of a similar pattern to t4s (big buffs, but boring), but they have enough utility (in skills, true seeing, flight) that they might crack t3 (and in t3, they're low on utility).

Also, just to note: you're using the generic dragon traits, not the true dragon traits. True dragon traits include blindsense, 120' darkvision, superior low-light vision, Frightful Presence, SR, DR, spells, and SLAs (MM 68), although the last five are by age category or per the individual entries, so they could be null for a given dragon.

[Nizaris]

I've used the Dragon Mag #332 red dragon PC progression, good strength, not terribly flexible of a PC. Tactics were open with breath weapon (meta-breath) then full attack in melee. That version doesn't get beyond large size and has a +6 LA over 19 levels, but my base stat adjustments meant I was still keeping up on attack bonus, damage, and HP (+12 Strength and +6 Con). The +12 nat armor on top my regular armor made me tanky enough to not mind the LA as much (1 level dip barbarian for pounce).

Blindsense and 120ft darkvision made me a surprisingly good scout (despite not the best stealth) just because I could see further than anyone else in the dark. But beyond that, reds don't get alter self and only get 1st level spells at 19th so not a lot of other utility.

Yours is certainly stronger, but probably not much more engaging than playing barbarian in combat. That's partly the fault of dragons in general mostly being a pile of hit points and stats with a breath weapon. I agree with the above, blindsense and improved darkvision should be on a true drrargon, can parse out at levels 6th and 12th?

[Gnaeus]

Its a pretty solid T3. Inherently combat capable. Some out of combat utility. Inherently possesses counters to some of the things that hard stop muggles, like flight and invisibility. It’s at least as T3 as a warblade. Heck, there’s not a lot a wildshape ranger can do that’s better than getting Draconic wildshape and being you but worse.

I recommend the Dreamscarred press dragon class. I’ve played one and alongside another and found it consistently fun.

[Segev]

My preferred 3.5e dragon build is rather specific, but starts with either a white wyrmling or a pseudodragon. White wyrmling is preferable because you'll never quite get rid of the last LA on a pseudodragon, and I'll work with the wyrmling in this explanation, but you can make a pseudodragon work almost as well.

Start with either, and you have an ECL 5 character (white wyrmling is 3 HD +2 LA; pseudodragon is 2 HD +3 LA). At ECL 6, pick up Dragonfire Adept. You're pretty much running it at this point. For white wyrmlings, I like to try to talk DMs into a unique Invocation that is grease at will, but an ice-slick, explained as the little dragon breathing out a freezing patch onto the floor ... or wall or ceiling. Because white wyrmlings have the ice walking thing that lets them spider climb on ice. But even without that, your little dragon now has a fire breath weapon that advances with level. (If you can talk the DM into it, when you get your first breath adaptation, take cold and trade your native breath weapon for +1d6 to the cold damage one.)

I'm fond of the Humanoid Form Invocation when you get to Lessers; you now can blend in the way all dragons do. (Honest. Not just silvers and golds. How dare you talk about them like they're better?!)

[Xervous]

I remember the LA fixing threads pegged most dragons as LA- once they put on just about any number of age categories.

Your progression doesn’t address the issues inherent to normal dragons, those being the lack of impactful abilities accruing at a reasonable rate. With no features beyond “hey look stats” and a smattering of abilities that cover magic item needs that come online hysterically early/too late there’s few compelling reasons to stick with the racial class.

Breath weapon scaling outstrips DFA progression on damage and may have use with metabreath for alpha striking, but is otherwise lackluster due to the infrequency with which you can use it.

True sight!!! and detect magic always on are a WBL blessing that makes you a better scout.

Natural weapons come online so slow you’re gimped for melee combat options. Short of grabbing a mouth pick weapon you’re worse off than a Warrior here.

Flight is another gem, but again if there’s nothing worth supporting then this benefit is moot.

Unless of course the shapeshift retains your ability scores just making this a weird barbarian skill monkey that has a potent scouting form.

If you can multi class out of this dragon racial class it’s potentially broken, I’ll gladly dip 1 level if that yields flight and true seeing. If you can’t I’d rather play a Dragonborn or raptoran to get wings along with hands that let me use my BAB and actual class abilities like pounce, invocations, maneuvers, or skirmish.

[Calthropstu]

A class of dragons is the WORST.
If one falls asleep, the snoring alone drowns you out. And if one ever catches a cold, the sneeze will kill you. When they roughhouse in the playground, the damage can be catastrophic. And have you ever tried telling a dragon to stop doing something?
Some of them (looking at you Merdithniagarixa the copper dragon) will simply not shut up. And their names are a huge hassle. And they get really touchy when you take roll call. If you say their names out of proper order they burst forth in anger. And you can't simply use alphebetical order. Oh no.... you have to go by order of power of their parents. Which leads to "my dad can beat up your dad" declarations which leads to more fighting... UGH.
Their only saving grace is that most of them quickly master the subject material due to their high intellect, so I don't have to go over the subject material more than once. Plus their parents pay pretty well for their education. Downside is we have to have extremely powerful mages to be teachers, otherwise the parents try to eat the teachers.

[Segev]

A class of dragons is the WORST.
If one falls asleep, the snoring alone drowns you out. And if one ever catches a cold, the sneeze will kill you. When they roughhouse in the playground, the damage can be catastrophic. And have you ever tried telling a dragon to stop doing something?
Some of them (looking at you Merdithniagarixa the copper dragon) will simply not shut up. And their names are a huge hassle. And they get really touchy when you take roll call. If you say their names out of proper order they burst forth in anger. And you can't simply use alphebetical order. Oh no.... you have to go by order of power of their parents. Which leads to "my dad can beat up your dad" declarations which leads to more fighting... UGH.
Their only saving grace is that most of them quickly master the subject material due to their high intellect, so I don't have to go over the subject material more than once. Plus their parents pay pretty well for their education. Downside is we have to have extremely powerful mages to be teachers, otherwise the parents try to eat the teachers.


What do you do with the white dragons, since they're going to need extra repetitions of the lesson material most of the time?

[Quertus]

I recommend the Dreamscarred press dragon class. I’ve played one and alongside another and found it consistently fun.

Why? What's it got going for it?

[SangoProduction]

Why? What's it got going for it?

Reading the PDF, it seems to be a huge ball of stats, with some required race picks, that correlate with the true dragon types. Oh, and flight at level 5, and very light spell like abilities.

[Blue Jay]

I remember the LA fixing threads pegged most dragons as LA- once they put on just about any number of age categories.

I've made full 20-level progressions for the chromatic dragons, using the Reassigned LAs. I've post them on Myth-Weavers (https://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=486342). I haven't completed the metallic dragons yet, because I'm a little put off by how much more powerful they are than the chromatic dragons. I'll get to them eventually.

[Gnaeus]

Why? What's it got going for it?

It’s a bit like the suggestion but slightly better spaced. 20 level class, no LA. D12s, 6 skill points. Good BAB. All good saves. Most levels give +2 to a stat and +1 NA. You start small or tiny depending on breed and go up categories a couple times. Natural attacks start at claw/claw/bite but you get the others when big enough. Humanoid form is a feat. Gain a level of sorcerer casting every 4 levels, and the main types (all the Chromatics and Metallics) all get their own progression of spell likes and specials like burrow or swim.

It plays like a not broken monk or a barbarian+Skillmonkey as someone described earlier. A fast tier 3 beat stick with enough toys (IMO) that you always feel useful. I’m in a group with a vizier and a couple of path of war guys and I don’t feel outclassed. Definitely broken strong compared with low T4s and 5s. But not OP by forum standards.