Manifesting Dreams?

[Quertus]

What are the rules for bringing things from Dream into reality? And for the stats for those things?

[Nifft]

Depends what you dream about.

Between Craft & Planar Binding, you'd cover a lot of options.

[Draconi Redfir]

might be thinking of 5th edition, but i heard Beholders can sort of accidentally dream things into existence or something. might want to look that up, might have something there.

[Telonius]

A few spells touch on it. Phantasmal Killer is an obvious one (if illusory); a lot of the Conjuration: Creation spells could work; and Killer Gnomes can make illusions that are more real than real. And Eberron has a lot of resources for rules on Dal Quor. But if you're talking about casting something on a person who's asleep, and pulling an image from their head into the real world? I don't know of a spell that could do that.

[Ruethgar]

Little mixing of games, but Spheres of Power with the Skilled Casting drawback linked to Lucid Dreaming, focusing on Creation does that very well thematically speaking if not explicitly literally speaking.

In 3.5, Lucid Dreaming allows you to make any sort of architecture, such as wondrous architecture like portals or spell traps of Gate, Planar Breach and True Creation which could very easily allow you to dream anything into reality.

If you manage to make a clone of yourself from your dreams to swap into, you could just Planar Bubble and lucid dream while awake and active.

Mixing games again, Spheres abilities Parallel Cognition and Somnambulance could be potentially combined in a technique to let you Lucid Dream while active.

[Quertus]

Sounds like there's even more Dream-adjacent coolness than I anticipated. Perhaps I should clarify. 1) I am talking about Dream, as presented in… Manual of the Planes, iirc. 2) I am speaking both of things native to people's dreams, and to things created with Lucid Dreaming (which, of course, begs the question of whether there's any limits to Lucid Dreaming). 3) the ability for dreams to enter the "real" world (I remember reading that it could happen with/at a "dream rupture", but could find no rules for such). 4) in parallel to #3, is Dream accessable via Plane Shift, Gate, etc? Could one attempt Planar Binding / Ally on a Dream being?

As it was played (and from my reading), it was power to rival Pun-Pun (as one could literally dream of Pun-Pun, and said dream Pun-Pun could enter the world through a Dream rupture).

But I'm wondering what other techniques exist for bringing things to reality, and how useful it could be.

For examples of what things I'm looking for RAW to enable me to adjudicate, could one dream up "peaceful" versions of various monsters, for people to use for "familiarity" for Wild Shape / Polymorph effects? How about (in 3.pf) for Trompe L'oeil subjects?

Or, cut out the middle man, and Dream up a Trompe L'oeil?

Tired of the deadbeat gods? Why not Dream up a new, better pantheon to worship? Anything (other than a Dream rupture or some alternate means to get them here, plus the sheer number of worshipers it takes to power a deity) keeping this from being a brilliant plan?

So, even a citation of a book and page number for just what a "Dream rupture" is would be helpful. As would anything related to rules for things that cross over (in either direction, but especially dream -> real).

EDIT:
In 3.5, Lucid Dreaming allows you to make any sort of architecture, such as wondrous architecture like portals or spell traps of Gate, Planar Breach and True Creation which could very easily allow you to dream anything into reality.

If you manage to make a clone of yourself from your dreams to swap into, you could just Planar Bubble and lucid dream while awake and active.

Mixing games again, Spheres abilities Parallel Cognition and Somnambulance could be potentially combined in a technique to let you Lucid Dream while active.

So, by RAW, a Dream "star gate", created by a "not Dream" being, could allow a city of Dream beings to explore the "real" world, not just Dream copies thereof? Would their Dream gods have power out in reality (the same as any other gods outside their home realm, I'm guessing)?

I don't quite get those other two ideas. Can you explain them?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The 3rd party* book Hyperconscious is a psionics supplement that's all about Dream and how it relates to the powers of the mind. Untapped Potential is by Dreamscarred Press, who wrote the PF psionics rules, and it builds on Hyperconscious, explicitly. Check 'em out.





*Albeit written by Bruce Cordell, author of the official 1st party Expanded Psionics Handbook.

[Telonius]

Ah, got it. I'd forgotten about that one. And this would interact very, very interestingly with my favorite obscure prestige class, Planeshifter (also from Manual of the Planes). A high-level ability of the class is "Planar Area Swap," where you can switch chunks of two separate planes. If your Dream-thing is within the area of the spell, it would find itself on the destination plane.

[Miss Disaster]

GitP's excellent homebrewing community has a metric tonne of awesome dream-themed game mechanics in its forums.

Go the Homebrew Forums .... and search words like Dream, Dreamscape, Lucid Dreaming, Nightmare, Oneiromancy, etc. I bookmarked about 80+ potentially useful threads from that forum with dream themes. We're talking 3.5 and Pathfinder here. Possibly more from 5e if you wish to make the conversions.

[Quertus]

GitP's excellent homebrewing community has a metric tonne of awesome dream-themed game mechanics in its forums.

Go the Homebrew Forums .... and search words like Dream, Dreamscape, Lucid Dreaming, Nightmare, Oneiromancy, etc. I bookmarked about 80+ potentially useful threads from that forum with dream themes. We're talking 3.5 and Pathfinder here. Possibly more from 5e if you wish to make the conversions.

I mean, I'm a fan of homebrew and all, but a) I need clarification on how the existing rules work before I consider adding in brew, and b) there's no need for brew for things that are already covered by the rules.

Although, if there's this much brew, it is a strong indication that the Playground found the existing coverage… lacking.

[Ruethgar]

So, a Legendary(Master class from Dragonlance I think)book of knowledge can give you a +10 circ to know about something. If you count book lots(Stronghold Builder’s Guide)as available to be made Legendary, that’s a +30. I think Complete Mage was the one that gave the ability to transfer books to wall murals, intended for spells, but that is precedent for making a book lot very much a piece of architecture which is one of the explicitly allowed uses of Lucid Dream.

Lucid Dream doesn’t directly allow you to make normal creatures, but it explicitly allows you to make plants, so Greenbound Monster appearing on a spell trap of Sanctify the Wicked could potentially work. Or, you know, just summon some form of architectural art of the creature.

As to your query about my previous post. It should be noted that objects only have like a 0.1% chance to get out of a dream. That’s why you open a portal to fire spell trap effects through it instead. So dream creatures exploring the real world is a little iffy unless you make a treant god to Alter Reality his way through the dream limits.

Planar Bubble allows you to count a small area around you as part of your home plane. If you transfer into a body made in the plane of dreams, this would extend the planar effects of the dream world around that body, presumably. You would have to manage to get it out of the realm of dreams, but if you make a spell trap of Time Stop and just keep shoving clone bodies through a Gate it can take just one night’s rest.

The Spheres of Power ability Parallel Cognition lets you perform mental tasks all you want while also doing something simple physically like following a road. The Spheres of Might ability Somnambulance lets you perform physical tasks while asleep. The Spheres of Champions ability Create Technique allows you to combine two or more Might&Power talents, however it is by DM discretion whether the above combo would let you perform mental actions while sleeping and treat yourself as being both in the dream and reality and mixing the two with Lucid Dreaming while ambulant.

[Quertus]

Lucid Dream doesn’t directly allow you to make normal creatures, but it explicitly allows you to make plants, so Greenbound Monster appearing on a spell trap of Sanctify the Wicked could potentially work. Or, you know, just summon some form of architectural art of the creature.

As to your query about my previous post. It should be noted that objects only have like a 0.1% chance to get out of a dream.

So, dreams can have creatures, Lucid Dreaming can't make them. Fair enough.

This 0.1% - is there a source for this? So, you'd expect to have to sacrifice about 30,000 creatures to get a viable breeding population out of Dream and into the World?

Seems a hilarious story to tell, about a Dream Deity's faithful followers, who keep resurrecting him / elevating another Dream Denizen to his position after each and every failed attempt to break through to the real world. :smalltongue:

[Miss Disaster]

...

Lucid Dream doesn’t directly allow you to make normal creatures, but it explicitly allows you to make plants, so Greenbound Monster appearing on a spell trap of Sanctify the Wicked could potentially work. Or, you know, just summon some form of architectural art of the creature.

Ruethgar (or anyone else) .... can you explain more about this Greenbound~Spell Trap~Sanctify combo you are talking about it? It's hard to visualize how this actually manifests.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

2) I am speaking both of things native to people's dreams, and to things created with Lucid Dreaming (which, of course, begs the question of whether there's any limits to Lucid Dreaming).

The description of Lucid Dreaming doesn't go into much detail, but the exact text of the Change Aspect usage is thus:


Change Aspect: An aspect of a dreamscape includes background features such as lighting, terrain, architecture of a given building, vegetation (or lack thereof), and other relatively innocuous characteristics of a dreamscape. You can’t use Lucid Dreaming to make a bolt of lightning strike a foe or open a pit below an enemy.

Given that it specifies "background feature" and "relatively innocuous" and disallows two obvious uses that would have an actual mechanical impact on other creatures, it's pretty clear that at least RAI and arguably RAW says that it's limited to flavor changes only. Anything with a direct mechanical impact (as opposed to a bit of flavor that could be leveraged mechanically, like adding grass and trees to a desert landscape and then casting entangle or acorn of far travel using those plants) would be an invalid extrapolated usage of that, cutting out e.g. all of the "just Lucid Dream up a spell trap of X" stuff because a trap of any sort is not innocuous and is definitely a foreground detail.


3) the ability for dreams to enter the "real" world (I remember reading that it could happen with/at a "dream rupture", but could find no rules for such).

It's in the Dreamscapes section:


In extremely rare cases, a dreamscape ruptures, sending its pieces and visitors into other dreamscapes or onto the Material Plane. Objects from ruptured dreamscapes usually last 1d% hours on the Material Plane, but 1% of them achieve permanent reality.


4) in parallel to #3, is Dream accessable via Plane Shift, Gate, etc? Could one attempt Planar Binding / Ally on a Dream being?

Yes and yes. The Region is Dreams is a plane like any other, with normal Astral links and everything.


For examples of what things I'm looking for RAW to enable me to adjudicate, could one dream up "peaceful" versions of various monsters, for people to use for "familiarity" for Wild Shape / Polymorph effects? How about (in 3.pf) for Trompe L'oeil subjects?

No, but you can avoid the issues of creatures being dangerous:


But the nature of the plane makes time spent on the plane less real. No matter what visitors experience, only memories remain when they leave Dream. Spells cannot truly be cast or learned, nor items won or lost, nor experience points earned when dreaming.
[...]
Spells can be cast normally, but travelers who leave Dream discover that any spells they used on the plane weren’t really cast (they still have them as prepared spells or available spell slots). Similarly, any spells still in effect when a traveler leaves Dream are gone as if they were never cast.

When an average dreamer enters Dream, she retains all her abilities and even gains dream-stuff equivalents of carried or worn items. Likewise, her hit points, ability scores, and all other values are exactly as they were before she fell asleep. For example, if she is a 5th-level wizard with a wand of lightning, she can use both her spells and her wand in Dream. When she wakes up, she’ll find that she neither cast any prepared spells nor expended charges from her wand.

If a dreamer or dreamwalker dies in a dreamscape, she wakes immediately with a hammering heart but is otherwise unharmed.

So if you want to gain familiarity with, say, the tarrasque, as long as you can find a dreamscape where someone is dreaming of a tarrasque (by whatever means the DM deems appropriate--send someone a nightmare about the tarrasque, use divinations to find an appropriate dreamscape, etc.) you can use all the buffs and magic item charges and whatever other resources necessary to prepare for your tarrasque safari, and (A) none of that is used up for real when you wake up and (B) if those preparations all fail and you get eaten, you wake up unharmed.


Tired of the deadbeat gods? Why not Dream up a new, better pantheon to worship? Anything (other than a Dream rupture or some alternate means to get them here, plus the sheer number of worshipers it takes to power a deity) keeping this from being a brilliant plan?

This has basically the same flavor justification and mechanical detail as the normal "worship yourself up some new gods" plan--that is, without hard rules on number of worshipers needed for ascension, number of worshipers needed to maintain divinity, etc., which can all vary by setting, dreaming up a bunch of gods might work flawlessly or might simply see them immediately become mortals or wink out of existence due to insufficient worship, without any idea of which option would happen beforehand, and anyone who would try to interfere with attempts to make new gods would still interfere here even though you're using an unusual method.

And if you can get the necessary amount and quality of worship together to sustain a new god, well, you can just do it the normal way, using the Astral instead of Dream, so it's not really all that exploitable.


So, by RAW, a Dream "star gate", created by a "not Dream" being, could allow a city of Dream beings to explore the "real" world, not just Dream copies thereof?

Likely not one simply whipped up via Lucid Dreaming, as noted above, but a Stargate-themed normal dreamscape or construction efforts in the Dreamheart could totally make that work.


Would their Dream gods have power out in reality (the same as any other gods outside their home realm, I'm guessing)?

Yep, it would vary by the local divine metaphysics in the Prime realm in question. Dream gods ending up in Toril or Krynn would have to deal with Ao's or the High God's rules, those ending up in Oerth would have as much free rein as any other deity of their rank, those ending up in Athas are would deeply (and very briefly) regret their terrible life choices, and so on.

[Quertus]

It's in the Dreamscapes section:

"In extremely rare cases, a dreamscape ruptures, sending its pieces and visitors into other dreamscapes or onto the Material Plane. Objects from ruptured dreamscapes usually last 1d% hours on the Material Plane, but 1% of them achieve permanent reality."

That's… exactly the rules I remembered (and could not find). Thanks!

By my reckoning, though, that's 10x the "0.1% survival rate" that I was quoted initially.



So if you want to gain familiarity with, say, the tarrasque, as long as you can find a dreamscape where someone is dreaming of a tarrasque (by whatever means the DM deems appropriate--send someone a nightmare about the tarrasque, use divinations to find an appropriate dreamscape, etc.) you can use all the buffs and magic item charges and whatever other resources necessary to prepare for your tarrasque safari, and (A) none of that is used up for real when you wake up and (B) if those preparations all fail and you get eaten, you wake up unharmed.

More… useful/cheesy, it's possible that someone in my backstory dreamt of, say, a reproductively-compatable Tarrasque, and so I come from a realm with half-Tarrasque peoples, for example, even without "a Wizard did it"?


This has basically the same flavor justification and mechanical detail as the normal "worship yourself up some new gods" plan--that is, without hard rules on number of worshipers needed for ascension, number of worshipers needed to maintain divinity, etc., which can all vary by setting, dreaming up a bunch of gods might work flawlessly or might simply see them immediately become mortals or wink out of existence due to insufficient worship, without any idea of which option would happen beforehand,

Ah, let me try again.

Someone has dreamt of a city, completely alien in design, inhabitants, and even gods. This dream has become permanent (there's rules for that, too, iirc).

The city has visitors (including the original Dreamer), and learns that it is a Dream. There is *plenty* of population in the city to power its gods (it's a *big* city). Not unlike the Kaorti, the inhabitants can explore the outside world… at great risk.

The fear (founded?) is that, if the Dreamer dies, the city will die with him. So the people consider a mass exodus before that happens (they also consider making the Dreamer undead, turning him to stone, etc). But 99% of the populous will die in the process - not good odds. And they'll be in a foreign world.

The gods decide to try to create a permanent beachhead in reality, by making the leap themselves. They have (for now, at least) the follower-power to sustain themselves. If they die, maybe they reform, maybe a new mortal is chosen to be uplifted to take their place (and suicide into Reality). This is repeated over and over until they succeed.


and anyone who would try to interfere with attempts to make new gods would still interfere here even though you're using an unusual method.

Less "making", more "finding", then. And don't many worlds have cross-world deities (at least in 2e & 3e), sometimes even impersonating each other?


And if you can get the necessary amount and quality of worship together to sustain a new god, well, you can just do it the normal way, using the Astral instead of Dream, so it's not really all that exploitable.

Again, less "creating", more "finding" or "utilizing"



Likely not one simply whipped up via Lucid Dreaming, as noted above, but a Stargate-themed normal dreamscape or construction efforts in the Dreamheart could totally make that work.

Totally sending my Simulacrum in my stead.


Yep, it would vary by the local divine metaphysics in the Prime realm in question. Dream gods ending up in Toril or Krynn would have to deal with Ao's or the High God's rules,

Or just circumvent them, pretending to be another deity that they clubbed over the head? (That is something that happened in at least one of those worlds, right?)


those ending up in Oerth would have as much free rein as any other deity of their rank,

?


those ending up in Athas are would deeply (and very briefly) regret their terrible life choices, and so on.

?? (I'm not familiar with the underlying mechanics of Athas)

[ShurikVch]

If you're OK to use Call of Cthulhu d20 stuff, then there is about the skill:
This skill represents the ability to alter the reality of the Dreamlands, either by changing objects within the Dreamlands or creating new ones. In order to do this, the character must both make at least one skill roll and also suffer a certain number of Int damage determined by the Keeper. This may be accomplished in a single instant or over many years of dreaming, depending on how ambitious the creation is. The more complex and powerful the creation, the more time, skill rolls, and ability points are needed.
Typically, the ability points spent are equal to the most vital statistic of the object being changed/created. For example, the most vital statistic for a sword would be its damage, so the ability point cost would be equal to its maximum damage of nine. When changing/creating a living thing, the Int point cost is doubled.
Also, Dream Weaver PrC (Book of Broken Dreams) able to duplicate effects of spells with Lucid Dreaming check (no restrictions, except - say - duplication of Plane Shift wouldn't, actually, transport you to another plane - just to a part of dreamworld which looks like the destination plane)

[PairO'Dice Lost]

By my reckoning, though, that's 10x the "0.1% survival rate" that I was quoted initially.

Indeed.


More… useful/cheesy, it's possible that someone in my backstory dreamt of, say, a reproductively-compatable Tarrasque, and so I come from a realm with half-Tarrasque peoples, for example, even without "a Wizard did it"?

Heck, Spelljammer has a planet by the name of Falx that's said to be the home planet of the tarrasque species, with at least a few hundred of them roaming around. It's almost certain that there's an entire planet's worth of sapients having nightmares about Death By Tarrasque every night. And if you happen to have a very interesting nightmare about one, well, whatever you get up to in the privacy of your own dreamscape is your own business. :smallamused:


Ah, let me try again.

Someone has dreamt of a city, completely alien in design, inhabitants, and even gods. This dream has become permanent (there's rules for that, too, iirc).

The city has visitors (including the original Dreamer), and learns that it is a Dream. There is *plenty* of population in the city to power its gods (it's a *big* city). Not unlike the Kaorti, the inhabitants can explore the outside world… at great risk.

The fear (founded?) is that, if the Dreamer dies, the city will die with him. So the people consider a mass exodus before that happens (they also consider making the Dreamer undead, turning him to stone, etc). But 99% of the populous will die in the process - not good odds. And they'll be in a foreign world.

The gods decide to try to create a permanent beachhead in reality, by making the leap themselves. They have (for now, at least) the follower-power to sustain themselves. If they die, maybe they reform, maybe a new mortal is chosen to be uplifted to take their place (and suicide into Reality). This is repeated over and over until they succeed.

That passage in MotP specifically refers to "objects from ruptured dreamscapes," so there's no RAW as to how objects from an intact dreamscape, creatures from a ruptured dreamscape, gods from Dream exploring another plane, etc. would fare and it'd be up to the DM how all that works out.

However, the preceding paragraph says...


Dreamscapes usually burst when the dreamer awakens, although occasionally dreamscapes linger or survive permanently under unusual circumstances or magic.

So you could certainly rule that a stable dreamscape containing an entire city existing complete with gods is an "unusual circumstance" that would let it persist after the Dreamer's death, or that the gods could figure out some "unusual magic" to stabilize a beachhead on the Prime.

Here's another possible option: Dragon #287 has an article called "Dreamlands: Variant Planes of Dreams" describing alternate takes on Dream that turn it into an Inner Plane, Transitive Plane, Outer Plane, or cluster of demiplanes. You could say that the unique formation of a pantheon of Dream-based gods stabilized the dreamscape and turned it into its own Astral demiplane with the planar traits, gods, creatures, and landscape of the Divine Dream as described in that article.


And don't many worlds have cross-world deities (at least in 2e & 3e), sometimes even impersonating each other?

Yes, though foreign gods interloping into the local crystal sphere to pick up some worshipers are generally treated just as well (that is, not at all) as newly-ascended gods or beings trying to ascend. Gods don't tend to like competition over their portfolios, so gods of dreams, knowledge, creativity, and similar would likely object to Dream-based gods stepping on their turf.


Or just circumvent them, pretending to be another deity that they clubbed over the head? (That is something that happened in at least one of those worlds, right?)

Overgods like Ao and the High God are effectively omniscient and omnipotent where other gods are concerned; think of them as being gods of divinity itself, with as much control over the local divine metaphysics as Mystra and Boccob have over the local magical laws, Pelor and Lathander have over the local sun(s), and so on.

And that applies even to gods who want to enter their crystal spheres, not just the ones inside it. In the past, Ao has prevented entire pantheons of god from entering Realmspace themselves or drawing worship from it, and defined exactly how they could send manifestations into Realmspace and how powerful those manifestations could be. So if one is a foreign god, one does not simply walk into Toril.


?

Meaning that there's no overgod of Greyspace to limit godhood or interfere with interloping gods. Vecna got up to some crazy shenanigans and no one was able to shut him down, so a pantheon of Dream gods who manage to get there would be similarly unimpeded.


?? (I'm not familiar with the underlying mechanics of Athas)

The very short version is that the Grey (the local magically-corrupted version of the Ethereal Plane) blocks planar travel and worship energy, the ruling Sorcerer-Kings draw in divine power from the surrounding environment and local elemental planes through "elemental vortices" to grant spells to pretend to be gods, no one believes in non-Sorcerer King gods, and any gods that might have existed are long since dead. So any god who enters Athas is going to find himself stuck there and unable to draw power from worshipers while his power is drained by the Sorcerer Kings. Not exactly a fun time.

[Bohandas]

Heroes of Horror has a bunch of dream related spells and magic

And of course Eberron has a lot of dream related stuff since one of the major antagonist groups is from the plane of dreams

[Quiet Wizard]

In this linked thread, Uncle Pine presents some very compelling arguments (via some extrapolations) about how the Lucid Dreaming skill can enable wizards to have filled spellbooks via the skill's ability to "Change Aspect" and create arcane architectures. Fascinating stuff. Granted, Crake provided some strong counter-arguments. Still, great debate!

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?578483-Tricks-that-completely-overcomes-the-wizard-s-spellbook-weakness

[Miss Disaster]

For examples of what things I'm looking for RAW to enable me to adjudicate, could one dream up "peaceful" versions of various monsters, for people to use for "familiarity" for Wild Shape / Polymorph effects? How about (in 3.pf) for Trompe L'oeil subjects?

Or, cut out the middle man, and Dream up a Trompe L'oeil?
Okay, now that you mention "3.PF", you definitely have more 1st party options as Paizo's Pathfinder (in their Horror & Occult series of softbound books) has a number of dream-related game mechanics that are uniquely different than WotC's 3.5 stuff.

I'll have to check on them in detail when I get home.

[daremetoidareyo]

Heroes of Horror has a bunch of dream related spells and magic

And of course Eberron has a lot of dream related stuff since one of the major antagonist groups is from the plane of dreams

And combining them with lucid dreaming makes for all sorts of crazy. Dream Psion + dream telling arguably allows you to alter the dreamspace coterminus with the real world. What happens if you climb a dream tree that you made with lucid dreaming that doesn't exist in The real world? What does your opponent see? Are you levitating?

[nijineko]

Meaning that there's no overgod of Greyspace to limit godhood or interfere with interloping gods. Vecna got up to some crazy shenanigans and no one was able to shut him down, so a pantheon of Dream gods who manage to get there would be similarly unimpeded.

Actually, there potentially is. The Luminous Being that Ao (from FR) may or may not report to is cited as being in charge of the creation and destruction of all universes, and in charge of all overdeities/overgods.

However, while FR goes into a (small) bit of detail on it, there does not seem to be much if anything in GH, though I suppose the eventual destruction of the GH universe might have had something to do with said entity.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Actually, there potentially is. The Luminous Being that Ao (from FR) may or may not report to is cited as being in charge of the creation and destruction of all universes, and in charge of all overdeities/overgods.

That likely wouldn't directly impact interloping Dream gods, though, since just as overgods only deal with gods and not mortals directly, the Luminous Being would presumably only deal with overgods and not gods directly.

(And since the Luminous Being is implied to be the in-world representation of the DM, if the DM wants the Dream gods' plan to work, the Luminous Being certainly isn't going to get in the way. :smallamused:)


However, while FR goes into a (small) bit of detail on it, there does not seem to be much if anything in GH, though I suppose the eventual destruction of the GH universe might have had something to do with said entity.

Note that Oerth's destruction is non-canon; the events of the third and subsequent Gord the Rogue novels are an alternate timeline, in-character because Chronos split the timeline and they use an alternate cosmology, out-of-character because they were written by Gygax after he left TSR as a way to literally destroy Oerth as a "screw you" for being fired. Assuming it were canon, though, the gods that destroyed it were Tharizdun and Entropy.