Moon Druid: I'M NOT DEAD!!!!

[Aaedimus]

https://imgur.com/o0M1lh4

I realize wildshape isn't technically "temporary hp" but there's no spot for it in the app.

Anyways: Damn, elemental wild shapes are awesome

Edit: If I can't add the darn picture go ahead and delete the post. It makes no sense without

[Man_Over_Game]

It gets even more ridiculous when you realize how well it synergizes with a single point of Barbarian for Rage, and that you get two Wild Shapes per Short Rest with each use lasting up to an hour.

[Aaedimus]

It gets even more ridiculous when you realize how well it synergizes with a single point of Barbarian for Rage, and that you get two Wild Shapes per Short Rest with each use lasting up to an hour.

I am trying to add a picture of my hp from a game:

Max hp 73, current hp 13, temporary hp: 122

Btw, elementals don't need the barbarian class, they already have those resistances.

And they can do stuff like: Fly 100ft/sec and earthglide

[Segev]

I imagine a half-orc druid/barbarian is pretty scary if he can get bear totem and pile on elemental wild shape.

You could either dip barbarian and "just" rely on the higher-hp elemental wild shapes, or dip druid and go for the Barbarian feature that lets them not go to 0 hp.

...In fact, I think that feature - relentless rage - at level 11 would trigger when you would hit 0 in wild shape. As would the half-orc 1/day feature (which diminishes its utility in my opinion, since that's a good fall-back). But a raging high-hp beast with the ability to make constitution saves to avoid turning back into a half-orc, and who can, I believe, use wild shape AGAIN even while raging (because it's not a spell), and then the barbarian power kicks in AGAIN when you hit 0, then again a THIRD time if you really come down to it in your base form....

And all the healing you can get burning spells as a moon druid.

And the fact that bear totem is halving all damage.

[Aaedimus]

I'll be straight up:

I was playing with a barbarian druid dip in that game, and straight druid was actually much more effective.

Like I said: Elemental shapes get resistances without raging (and some immunities, like poison, and your choice of fire or water), and you get to concentrate and cast higher spells. So dipping Barbarian actually hurt the other player's effectiveness.

My druid actually used a Ravinica guild background (Boros?) so I was able to haste myself... and I had mobile and mage slayer, Turning into a total wrecking ball

[Segev]

I'll be straight up:

I was playing with a barbarian druid dip in that game, and straight druid was actually much more effective.

Like I said: Elemental shapes get resistances without raging (and some immunities, like poison, and your choice of fire or water), and you get to concentrate and cast higher spells. So dipping Barbarian actually hurt the other player's effectiveness.

My druid actually used a Ravinica guild background (Boros?) so I was able to haste myself... and I had mobile and mage slayer, Turning into a total wrecking ball

What made the no-dip more effective? The lack of delay on the elemental wild shape? Or something else?

How would you feel about a barbarian with a 2-level moon druid dip?

[Aaedimus]

You take barbarian to gain resistance (in some cases a bit more armor):

The earth elemental's natural armor is higher than that
and the other two forms get +2 armor (which you can get other ways easily)

But you get the resistances without the barbarian dip(and some immunities. air water and fire elementals are immune to poison), and you aren't lagging in high level spell choices, and because you're not raging you can concentrate on buffs (like haste for my druid).

So basically, you sacrifice a druid level, your wildshape progression, and spell progression fall back (We were at level 11, and I could turn into elementals while he could be a giant scorpion. HUGE power difference in those wildshapes)

and in return you get 2 or 3 ac.

[Aaedimus]

at low levels the dip has some extra tanking potential, but past that, pure moon druid FAR outscales the dips in usefulness and power.

I'd say if you are going to dip barbarian, it'd be better to do it at like.. either level 12 or 19.

Who ever gets to level 19 though

If you're not ever getting to level 9 and want to just be a tank, and you're ok with sacrificing a bit of spell progression, that's another reason to dip.

[Segev]

Sounds like one of those things where it depends on the level. At levels 3-10, nobody has the elemental shapes, so the barbarian resistances matter a lot more.

[Man_Over_Game]

Sounds like one of those things where it depends on the level. At levels 3-10, nobody has the elemental shapes, so the barbarian resistances matter a lot more.

Don't the elemental shapes also consume two uses? Couldn't you just use two animal forms and get more value? Not to mention that the Rage can persist while out of form, so you have some damage mitigation should something pop your form.

I dunno, it's just hard to sell me that taking 50% less damage, +1-2 AC on your forms, and +2 damage to all of your attacks just isn't worth it for 1 level.

Sure, you could mimic some of those aspects with Concentration spells, but it's not like those spell slots you didn't spend are wasted.

[Aaedimus]

Yeah. You'll be a bit more tanky with less actual flexibility or non-damage soaking usefulness.

If the campaign is stopping at 9 or higher though, I wouldn't.

At level 9 you can turn into things with a flying speed, and you can turn into CR 3 creatures (giant scorpion has 3 attacks and can grapple 2 creatures simultaneously AND sting), which again is a huge boost. If you will never hit 9 and want to play a brute go ahead.

If you're going to hit 9 I'd go straight druid.

[Aaedimus]

Don't the elemental shapes also consume two uses? Couldn't you just use two animal forms and get more value? Not to mention that the Rage can persist while out of form, so you have some damage mitigation should something pop your form.

I dunno, it's just hard to sell me that taking 50% less damage and +2 damage to all of your attacks just isn't worth it for 1 level.

From my experience, honestly those 2 uses were worth it.

The AC, resistances, damage, flexibility, and increased power of the elemental shapes really outclasses not having them. Having to wait an extra level or 2 for that can hurt your progression (Which is why I said a higher level dip might be better)

CR3 giant scorpion as a barbarian would have: 15 AC, 52HP, movement speed of 40 (it doesn't change because the natural armor is higher than the barbarian armor class can increase it) and has 3 attacks, for a total average of 19 if all the hit (plus 22 if the tail hits and a con save failed, which is the worst save to target)

Earth elemental has 17AC(won't go up if you dip barbarian), 126 HP, has a burrow speed, tremorsense, averages 28 damage on 2 attacks, and along with the resistances he has immunity to poison, snf can't be exhausted, paralyzed, petrified, poisoned or unconcious.

If you're level 10 would you rather be a barbarian druid with the scorpion shape, or a pure druid with elemental? If you're level 9, would you rather have access to the scorpion or a bear?

Not to mention you can't cast mass cure wounds, greater restoration wrath of nature, wall of stone, Conjure elemental, or reincarnate because you're a level behind in spell progression.

Again, as long as your campaign stays 8 or below, the early dip might be worth it, elsewise it's not.

[MaxWilson]

I dunno, it's just hard to sell me that taking 50% less damage, +1-2 AC on your forms, and +2 damage to all of your attacks just isn't worth it for 1 level.

But you also have to give up another bonus action to activate Rage, accept tactical limitations (must continually attack or be damaged, or waste the Rage), and miss out on concentration spells, in this poster's case Haste.

In exchange you get a tiny damage boost, a potential AC boost in some forms if you weren't using Mage Armor, and resistance to B/P/S damage. The Barbarian dip isn't trash but you're underestimating the opportunity cost.

[Segev]

Why wouldn’t a barbarian get an AC boost from his firm’s con mod?

[sithlordnergal]

Why wouldn’t a barbarian get an AC boost from his firm’s con mod?

They do for the most part, its just that the two given examples, Giant Scorpions and Earth Elementals, would have a higher base AC then what you get with the Barbarian's AC. The Fire and Air Elementals would have higher AC as a Barbarian though.

As for multiclassing...as a person with a level 19 Moon Druid in AL, you really don't want to multiclass as a Moon Druid. Less because of Wild Shape at many points, and more because of your spells. Since you can Concentrate on a spell while Wild Shaped, you can pull off some fun things like Polymorph an ally, followed by Wild Shape. Now you have two heavy hitting beasts.

Wall of Thorns plus the Giant Scorpion is a good combo as well, because the Scorpion has a grapple attack. Hit the enemy with a claw, drag them to the wall, and hold them in it. You're technically not in the wall, so you aren't at risk of being damage. The enemy gets to them make a choice, use their action to break free or attack you to break free. Cause if they stay in the wall, they take 7d8 piercing damage, or half on a Dex save. Even if they do break free, they make that first bit of movement at 1/4 speed.

Guardian of Nature is another powerful spell option. It is a Bonus Action spell, so it takes a moment to set up...but once you have it you're good to go.

And lets not forget Shillelagh. I know it may seem odd at first, but toss a levrl 10 Moon Druid with PAM and Shillelgah against a Fire Dragon, and I am willing to bet the Moo. Druid would win. Why? Immune to fire, a d8 weapon attack, bonus action d4 attack, and resistance against that Dragon's claw attacks. Same goes for Green Dragons.

EDIT: the Scorpion trick works with Wall of Fire too. Just make sure you stand on the opposite side of where you have the wall pointing.

[Keravath]

One tactic I have seen moon druids use -
- cast barkskin for a minimum 16 AC - which helps a lot of beast forms
- cast conjure animals and summon a pack of creatures. I've seen a moon druid summon up a pack of brown bears while turning into one and the three brown bears together were very effective.

None of these are possible while raging so although the barbarian dip offers some upgrades it prevents good uses of spells while wild-shaped.

One more comment, the forms last up to druid level/2 so they start at 1 hour but by the time you are level 10 you can stay in an elemental form for 5 hours ... which it time enough to have a fight and take a short rest to restore your ability to change forms and continue on using the first form.

[Zuras]

Don't the elemental shapes also consume two uses? Couldn't you just use two animal forms and get more value? Not to mention that the Rage can persist while out of form, so you have some damage mitigation should something pop your form.

I dunno, it's just hard to sell me that taking 50% less damage, +1-2 AC on your forms, and +2 damage to all of your attacks just isn't worth it for 1 level.

Sure, you could mimic some of those aspects with Concentration spells, but it's not like those spell slots you didn't spend are wasted.

Sure, elemental forms take 2 uses of WS, but the CR 3&4 beasts in official WotC material are so underwhelming, you almost always come out ahead. CR 5, with Giant Crocs, Hulking Crabs and Brontosauri is where beast forms become viable again.

The main issue is that you can’t concentrate on a spell while you rage, and you can rage & attack, WS and attack, or rage and WS, but you can’t do all three on the first turn of combat.

I have seen Barb/Druids in play and they are absolutely awesome in Tier 1, but drop off hard after that. They get 3rd level spells late, and their best abilities (rage & high level Druid spells) are incompatible because almost all the good Druid spells require concentration.