Made one of my players mad with a from-the-book-encounter

[ButzSanchez]

So I recently DMed my first 5e campaign for a while. Our usual DM needed a break to focus on other stuff so I thought I'd take a shot at it since I had some content I had acquired through a donation campaign. I wanted to do a one shot that was going to cover a single chapter of a particular official campaign; Hoard of the Dragon Queen. It's for level one characters, but I figured since we were all around level 5-6 in our normal campaign, starting at level one would be boring, so I let everyone bring level 3 characters to the game and beefed up the encounters in it by substituting some creatures for others. The problem sprung up with our Aaracocra ranger, who is our main DM and my girlfriend.

Oh, and SPOILERS for the first chapter of Hoard of the Dragon Queen, just in case.

There were a few issues within this first chapter of the campaign, but I'll stick to the main meat of why I made this post to begin with. Anyone who has played this module knows about the encounter with the full grown adult blue dragon at the keep. I already thought this was overkill; this thing would vaporize any level 1 or 3 player that it attacked. The only reasonable thing any players at this level could do would be to not fight it at all and let the archers deal with it. But I kept it as it was, trusting the judgment of WotC to be fair and balanced. It was doing strafing runs and according to the module it would retreat if it took a single critical hit or a certain amount of damage. I figured if the players worked with the archers, that 5% critical chance would inevitably rear its head and the thing would run. I fell prey to one of the most common mistakes a DM makes; assuming you know what will happen.

The players were not on board with fighting this damn thing, but one player managed to convince the others she had a plan. They hid in a safer part of the keep and began to hold their actions, talking to each other about their plan in the private player chat (I allow this at my table since it lets them surprise me and I can then respond accurately instead of planning what I'll do around said choices during the interim). Their plan was actually super freaking cool, IMHO. As it made it's second strafe over the keep, our Aaracocra ranger picked up the halfling sorcerer, since he was small enough that she could still fly with him. This sorcerer cast Silent Image, carefully positioned so it the illusion covered them, positioned inside the head of an illusory adult gold dragon. Meanwhile the party wizard cast Dragon's breath on the Aaracocra. As the blue dragon passed overhead, the Aaracocra took flight, breathing fire in the direction of the dragon. The wizard used minor illusion to make the dragon "roar", and the sorcerer maintained the illusion's movement so the dragon kept pace with them. They all held their actions to ensure this could go off at the same time. I had them roll intimidation with advantage, and they got a nat 20.

They successfully startled this dragon with the sudden illusory rival and he lost control, crashing into the keep wall. This was where we get to the problem, however, and I think some bad decisions on my part began to cluster up because of my rustiness as a DM. Because this was sudden and I was essentially winging it at this point, I rolled a single D8 for damage for the crash. I also didn't respond the way the player responsible for spearheading the plan thought I would; I had the dragon get up on it's turn and use it's action to attack the new rival. I figured this would be the appropriate action for a prideful dragon who had just been challenged by another dragon. I asked the players in the illusion to roll dex saves for it's lightning breath. The Aaracocra player began to protest; she knew this was going to kill them, half damage or not. While she was doing this I rolled damage for the attack, and she was right, it would. She brought up that the dragon had already been using it's weapon on the archers and probably needed to roll recharge; I had forgotten about this since the book just talked about it letting loose with the attack every time it passed, not waiting to recharge. I rolled for it to be safe, thinking maybe that would defuse the situation, but it managed to recharge anyway.

This is where I fibbed a bit since I was starting to piece together how badly screwed these guys were and didn't want my players feeling like their actions didn't matter, since again, their plan was pretty cool. I said it failed it's recharge, had it fly up to attack the fake dragon, and had it miss since it was attacking an illusion. The archers then did the last damage needed to cause it to retreat, ending the encounter.

After the game, the Aaracocra player was still mad. She claimed I should have ended the encounter after their plan caused it to crash. Since I rolled so low on the crash damage, I'm inclined to agree now on that point, but she also says the gold dragon, which is the most powerful of the good dragons, would have successfully scared it away since it would recognize that it was outmatched. On this part I disagreed; I stated dragons are prideful, and being challenged by another dragon of equivalent age would start a fight. It would have to be a much older dragon to make it want to run. I bolstered this argument by actually looking up the info on the Blue Dragon; it even states in the book that blues in particular are prideful and won't back down from a challenge from a competitor, especially another dragon. I also pointed out that she shouldn't have been using meta knowledge about dragons and their relationships in the first place, since that would be incredibly specific information about a creature her character probably didn't know. I let it pass since the sorcerer had a background I allowed giving him some limited information about dragons, and he was in on the plan. Ultimately though she said I shouldn't have set up an encounter that's been deliberately stacked against them so badly, and said their actions didn't even matter since the archers got him in the end. I pointed out that they were only able to hit the dragon because he stuck around in the keep long enough to attack the fake, but she insisted they would have gotten him eventually anyway and that I should have just dealt enough damage to the dragon to end the encounter when he crashed.

All in all, I think I handled it okay, but I still feel bad on the low damage I rolled for the crash and that I had to deliberately lie about a roll to keep peace at the table. I don't think I'll be continuing with this module, however, since the big encounter for the chapter is a one on one fight the player is meant to lose against a half dragon fighter. Given this response, I don't think moving forward is a good call.

What do you think? How would you have handled it?

[JellyPooga]

I think you handled it right; there's no way the Blue would have just fled on the spot unless the illusion was of a clearly much larger opponent. A Natural 20 on a single dice roll doesn't mean the PC's automatically win the whole encounter, creative thinking or not.

That said, the module is...well, it's just really bad in my opinion. There's ways of rendering encounters for the PC's to lose or to make a hard fight without just throwing enemies that wildly outclass the PCs and that 1v1 with the Half-Dragon is a perfect example of poor design. It's like using a flamethrower to light a candle; it gets the job done, but it's way overkill and you end up causing a mess. The fight against the Adult Blue is also just really bad and your player is spot on about how the players actions in that scene are largely irrelevant; it's all just about fishing for that crit whilst minimising casualties, which largely comes down to throwing as many attack rolls at it as possible. It's dull and entirely luck-based and at the end of it, there's no satisfaction or validation for the "win" because the players don't actually win; the dragon concedes. Really bad encounter.

So yeah, kudos to your players for the creative thinking, but they shouldn't expect miracles just because of a good idea and one natural 20. And kudos to you for managing to salvage at least something from a really crappy encounter.

[ButzSanchez]

I think you handled it right; there's no way the Blue would have just fled on the spot unless the illusion was of a clearly much larger opponent. A Natural 20 on a single dice roll doesn't mean the PC's automatically win the whole encounter, creative thinking or not.

That said, the module is...well, it's just really bad in my opinion. There's ways of rendering encounters for the PC's to lose or to make a hard fight without just throwing enemies that wildly outclass the PCs and that 1v1 with the Half-Dragon is a perfect example of poor design. It's like using a flamethrower to light a candle; it gets the job done, but it's way overkill and you end up causing a mess. The fight against the Adult Blue is also just really bad and your player is spot on about how the players actions in that scene are largely irrelevant; it's all just about fishing for that crit whilst minimising casualties, which largely comes down to throwing as many attack rolls at it as possible. It's dull and entirely luck-based and at the end of it, there's no satisfaction or validation for the "win" because the players don't actually win; the dragon concedes. Really bad encounter.

So yeah, kudos to your players for the creative thinking, but they shouldn't expect miracles just because of a good idea and one natural 20. And kudos to you for managing to salvage at least something from a really crappy encounter.

I think in regards to the half dragon, he's supposed to be a recurring villian. Since he shows up in the first chapter and is supposed to beat a player up, he sets himself up as an antagonist the players will have a relationship with, either fearing him or wanting to get even when they next meet him. He shows up later in the module once the players have gained some levels, and has no leverage to prevent the party from teaming up on him there. Story wise, great hook. But this is only AFTER a full night of the players dealing with set encounters, random encounters, and a fight with a dragon. Outside of knowing how many encounters are in the first chapter and deliberately avoiding them as much as possible through clever gameplay, I don't know how any level 1 characters are supposed to get through this without several character deaths.

[Evaar]

This is a module problem. The blue dragon is there to awe and terrify the players, and they're mostly meant to focus on lackeys. But players don't really act that way, they want to try to beat the dragon.

I am inclined to agree with the player that the dragon should have fled after crashing - yeah blues are prideful, but they do know that golds are far more powerful (who cares why the player characters picked a gold - maybe they got lucky) and this particular blue isn't very attached to what he's doing. I believe the module several times describes him as being lazy and bored. If he suddenly had a credible risk to himself (like a gold dragon showing up, or someone scoring a critical hit on him) he would take off because he really doesn't care about this town.

This encounter is set up to have almost no satisfying conclusions for the players, they're just spectators. Fortunately your players did come up with a pretty decent plan and gave you the opportunity to give it a satisfying conclusion, but in the moment you got a little surprised and didn't react optimally. It happens.

I would take the player's feedback and try to look at it like this: if an encounter has a foregone conclusion like "the dragon is supposed to run away," and the players do something that could plausibly get to that conclusion, then just skip straight to the conclusion and give the players the credit. The archers aren't the important people in this story.

[Mr Adventurer]

A Natural 20 on a single dice roll doesn't mean the PC's automatically win the whole encounter, creative thinking or not.

I just wanted to point out that actually this encounter is specifically set up that way: OP states the dragon flees after taking any critical hit.

[ButzSanchez]

This is a module problem. The blue dragon is there to awe and terrify the players, and they're mostly meant to focus on lackeys. But players don't really act that way, they want to try to beat the dragon.

I am inclined to agree with the player that the dragon should have fled after crashing - yeah blues are prideful, but they do know that golds are far more powerful (who cares why the player characters picked a gold - maybe they got lucky) and this particular blue isn't very attached to what he's doing. I believe the module several times describes him as being lazy and bored. If he suddenly had a credible risk to himself (like a gold dragon showing up, or someone scoring a critical hit on him) he would take off because he really doesn't care about this town.

This encounter is set up to have almost no satisfying conclusions for the players, they're just spectators. Fortunately your players did come up with a pretty decent plan and gave you the opportunity to give it a satisfying conclusion, but in the moment you got a little surprised and didn't react optimally. It happens.

I would take the player's feedback and try to look at it like this: if an encounter has a foregone conclusion like "the dragon is supposed to run away," and the players do something that could plausibly get to that conclusion, then just skip straight to the conclusion and give the players the credit. The archers aren't the important people in this story.

Good point, that makes sense.

As for how they came to the conclusion of a gold dragon, that point irked me since it was a player using meta knowledge of dragon stats to make their choice. There wasn't really a good reason a level 3 character should know the differences between the breeds of such a rare creature, let alone create a detailed illusion of one.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Considering the low level illusion spells are up to 15 cubic feet and adult dragons are huge...

I think you were generous.

That said, wouldn't the blue maybe want to report that the good guys have any gold Dragon on board?

[JellyPooga]

I just wanted to point out that actually this encounter is specifically set up that way: OP states the dragon flees after taking any critical hit.

Granted, but that only reinforces the poor design of the encounter, in my opinion.

[Kane0]

That encounter is not very well designed. Its built like a cinematic, which as a rule generally dont go well in tabletop games because of their interactive and social nature. I think you handled it well, considering the deck stacked against DMs with proactive, brave and savvy adventurers in this case.

I remember when I ran it i made sure to place npcs on the battlements with ballistae to draw the dragons fire and pose a credible threat that might force it to retreat. In my case i was lucky in that the PCs focused on keeping the ballistae up and firing for as lo nag as possible rather than engaging the dragon directly. To invoke the same fear and awe the encounter wanted i made sure that when the lightning breath went off it obliterated the entire wall section that it hit.

[Chaos Jackal]

As others said, this is mostly down to the module.

On paper, the opening encounter isn't so bad. Plenty of archers, the dragon generally ignoring the players, and not much damage needed to send it off. Even less if a crit rolls somewhere.

The problem is that this is an encounter the players aren't supposed to take, and many players just don't have the mindset required. Especially in D&D.

It's a heroic setting, your character is a protagonist, and many expect the average encounter to be level-appropriate. If they're faced with an opponent they obviously can't beat without any other context, they're liable to believe that there's a catch and the encounter is actually beatable. If they screw up terribly on an infiltration and find themselves facing 100 guards, they'll run because they consider the guards the price of failing the infiltration. But if the infiltration goes smoothly and they end up in a treasure vault, which has 100 guards in it, they might just try to fight them. It's the exact same situation, only this time they believe the guards are part of the standard "quest", and can thus be overcome.

Gets even worse if the DM has allowed escape from iffy circumstances in the past. If it happened before, why not again? But even without that, you'll find a lot of people in D&D who don't even consider retreat an option, because they expect every fight to be level-appropriate. And if they end up in encounters they should never have picked, they often blame the DM, even though they always had the option of not tackling that particular fight. Because they are the heroes, they are the protagonists, and there's just no way they might be getting into something way over their paycheck.

So you can easily end up with such a scenario in Hoard's first fight. It's not actually a fight, more of a cinematic as others said, but players don't like watching without acting in RPGs, and since they're basically thrown into the mix without being told somehow that this is dangerous, they are at least somewhat likely to take on the dragon, with potentially disastrous consequences.

All things considered, you didn't handle it very badly.

Just making the dragon fly away would've probably been a better idea, admittedly. He's basically looking for an excuse to scram. He's not a particularly engaged dragon in the first place, and pride or no pride, fighting a dragon of equal size over enemy territory isn't something he'd do. Blues are proud, but they're also very smart and methodical, the types to fight only on their own terms.

Also, regarding the whole color hierarchy of dragons, that's not exactly obscure knowledge. Dragons are rare, sure, but they're also incredibly popular both as study subjects and folklore. Stuff like "if their scales don't shine, they're evil" and "reds and golds are the strongest" isn't knowledge reserved for wizard libraries.

I'll be honest. If the players had just run up the walls and started throwing stones at the thing, I'd have nuked them from orbit. But it was a good plan. Crash or no crash, the enemy blue just isn't very invested in this whole thing. He wouldn't have bothered to hit the keep in the first place if another dragon was there.

You didn't give them the autowin, but you didn't kill them either, so in the end there's not much to feel bad about. You panicked, but you didn't completely lose it. The biggest mistake was having it crash. There was no need for that, and you essentially allowed an already derailed cinematic scene to get even further off the designated trail.

Ultimately though, as I said, it's more of a combination of module expectations and player philosophy than you messing up.

Edit: Forgot the dragon has blindsight. So if the players were close enough... yeah, not good for them. And it probably falls to my earlier "nuke them from orbit" comment.
Changes nothing for your side though. The player got mad because of unwarranted expectations, not because you were too strict. As I said earlier, no matter what, in the end they didn't die, despite the situation definitely having death as a likely outcome. If anything, there's even less of a precedent for them with this. Point out that they could've flat out been killed because the dragon would normally see through their illusion.

[Mikal]

You didn’t do anything wrong. Players need to suck it up. They decided to challenge the super large dragon directly with at best second level spells and bluffs.

Let’s look at this mechanically.

1) the size of the illusion as mentioned earlier is only going to be a 15 foot cube. An adult blue dragon is huge so takes up a 15 x15 foot square. So size wise they’re comparable.

2) dragon breath does 3d6 damage. An adult gold dragons breath does 12d10. Even if the blue dragon somehow didn’t know that it’s own breath weapon also does 12d10. So your players made the comparably sized dragon basically shoot a water pistol against a fire hose.

3) you had then roll intimidation with advantage. With a 20 that’s going to be at best 33 (assuming +5 charisma and +8 due to expertise). Pretty respectable, but likely not that large.


So you have a large looking dragon with a big voice shoot a little pea sized bit of fire.

Its perfectly plausible for the blue dragon to see this as a challenge and counter attack, especially as its intelligent and realizes if it flies away the gold can easily pursue.

Just because the players came up with something inventive doesn’t mean they automatically win. You played the opponent as if it were an living being. You did nothing wrong and the aaracokra player needs to suck it up.

Odds are she’s just mad because she (I assume) is the person who came up with the plan and is pissed she didn’t think it through, assuming if her plan worked that everything would go the way she wanted. That’s not how stuff happens.

As for “the gold is the strongest”... umm no.

The gold dragon is slightly physically stronger. Their defenses are comparable (same ac, legendary saves) and the blue hits the gold on a 5 or higher for potentially damage due to its bite adding lightning damage and the gold not adding fire. As already states the breath weapons are the same damage wise.

The player made an assumption. She was wrong. Live with it.

[ButzSanchez]

I do feel like I've learned something from this; it is important to gauge your players and have an understanding of how they will likely react. I also would have probably made the dragon a bit younger if I had a good gauge of just how stilted this "cutscene fight" was going to be. Would have at least given the players a stronger chance and made them feel less helpless. Though admittedly, I don't know if it would have inspired such a creative solution if things hadn't been so dire.

[Mikal]

I do feel like I've learned something from this; it is important to gauge your players and have an understanding of how they will likely react. I also would have probably made the dragon a bit younger if I had a good gauge of just how stilted this "cutscene fight" was going to be. Would have at least given the players a stronger chance and made them feel less helpless. Though admittedly, I don't know if it would have inspired such a creative solution if things hadn't been so dire.

Eh, no need to change the encounter. Players sometimes need to realize that there are times their characters will be outmatched if they try to directly engage. Sometimes you’re fighting outside your weight class. This was one of them.

You can win the battle but lose the war. See: phyrric victory

Edit : also please note I’m not saying the blue would fight the gold no matter what. In the module the blue doesn’t care because it doesn’t see this as his fight. A gold pouncing on him COULD make the blue change its mind, at least for a moment, if not at least trying to do a single attack to distract the blue to get away if that’s what it wants to do.

[Mr Adventurer]

Eh, no need to change the encounter. Players sometimes need to realize that there are times their characters will be outmatched if they try to directly engage. Sometimes you’re fighting outside your weight class. This was one of them.

This isn't wholly on the players, in any circumstances. You can't just "realise" something if you have incorrect information. The DM controls the information the players have. In my experience that's the most important and hardest trick as a DM: give the players enough information that they understand what you understand (including the filter of their character's experience).

[ThatoneGuy84]

Good point, that makes sense.

As for how they came to the conclusion of a gold dragon, that point irked me since it was a player using meta knowledge of dragon stats to make their choice. There wasn't really a good reason a level 3 character should know the differences between the breeds of such a rare creature, let alone create a detailed illusion of one.

Level 3?
I thought that HODQ they didnt even level to 2 till after this encounter.
Your a pretty nice DM, I forced my players to play this entire act at level 1

[Kane0]

Level 3?
I thought that HODQ they didnt even level to 2 till after this encounter.
Your a pretty nice DM, I forced my players to play this entire act at level 1

The only real difference i’ve observed that it makes is the duel with Cyanwrath, which is another poorly designed encounter.

[Tanarii]

The plan would have failed from the get-go anyway. You can't put an illusion over something. The physical interaction rule would have been triggered.

[ButzSanchez]

Level 3?
I thought that HODQ they didnt even level to 2 till after this encounter.
Your a pretty nice DM, I forced my players to play this entire act at level 1

We had already gotten to level 6 or 7 in our other DM's campaign and we all thought it would be boring to start out at 1. Gave my players a headstart and shuffled some of the creatures in the encounters.


The plan would have failed from the get-go anyway. You can't put an illusion over something. The physical interaction rule would have been triggered.

I thought that was specifically for the creatures that interacted with the illusion, not all creatures?

[Mikal]

This isn't wholly on the players, in any circumstances. You can't just "realise" something if you have incorrect information. The DM controls the information the players have. In my experience that's the most important and hardest trick as a DM: give the players enough information that they understand what you understand (including the filter of their character's experience).

Eh to a large degree it is on them I think... I mean it’s a huge dragon that is literally blasting apart Archers and whatnot.

[Tawmis]

I don't think you did anything wrong.

What the players don't know - or shouldn't know (at least their characters at the very least shouldn't know) - is said Blue Dragon more than likely would not flee, unless severely wounded. The way I would see it (having read the module already to run it myself) - that Blue Dragon is "safe keeping" the lackeys who are there to collect gold (and worth). And this money isn't for the Blue Dragon. It's for Tiamat's horde. To flee from a battle would UNDOUBTEDLY make Tiamat displeased.

Who, in the end, would the Blue Dragon fear more? A gold dragon or Tiamat?

[PraetorDragoon]

Overall, I would say that you did well. I would say that you should have let the dragon retreat after the illusion/crash. It wouldn't have changed the end of the encounter (as the dragon was planned to retreat anway) but it would have given the players a sense of accomplishment that their plan worked. There was little value in continuing and letting the dragon retreat after the archers took some more shots.

Basically, if the encounter is supposed to end by the monster leaving, and the players have a clever plan that pretty much succeeded and could make the monster reasonably leave, there is no reason to draw things out and let the monster leave at that point.

[MoiMagnus]

Eh to a large degree it is on them I think... I mean it’s a huge dragon that is literally blasting apart Archers and whatnot.

On the other hand, "trusting the DM / module writer to never put you against an enemy you can't defeat" is a frequent behaviour for players. And managing expectations of the players, or at least making sure you're not wrongly communicating on what behaviour they should expect from you, is part of the DM's responsibilities.

[We could go into discussion on whether videogames/fiction/media/... put expectations into peoples, some of them with arguable consequences on campaigns. But the fact is that players and DM do arrive at the table with expectations, and not making sure everyone is on the same page is the recipe for "making one of your player / your DM mad".]

[ButzSanchez]

On the other hand, "trusting the DM / module writer to never put you against an enemy you can't defeat" is a frequent behaviour for players. And managing expectations of the players, or at least making sure you're not wrongly communicating on what behaviour they should expect from you, is part of the DM's responsibilities.

[We could go into discussion on whether videogames/fiction/media/... put expectations into peoples, some of them with arguable consequences on campaigns. But the fact is that players and DM do arrive at the table with expectations, and not making sure everyone is on the same page is the recipe for "making one of your player / your DM mad".]

Yeah, I feel like perhaps I should have had a little disclaimer since I had already gone through the module in my planning stages. Maybe something like telling them before we started that not every encounter was meant to be won or even fought necessarily.

[Kalashak]

I don't really think you did anything wrong, you rolled with what the players were trying to do and were more generous to them than I would have been at basically every step of this story.

[Tanarii]

I thought that was specifically for the creatures that interacted with the illusion, not all creatures?A lot of people think that. And to be fair, it's possible to interpret it that way. But:
1) it's written as a universal statement. It does not say "to those interacting with it" or "to those observing the interaction".
2) it makes illusions quite a lot more powerful as one-way blockades. Whether or not you think that's good or bad thing is up to you of course.

It's really a tangential point though. You allowed it, and you allowed in a way that made the party's plan workable. There are worse things to do.

-----------

As far as the player objecting goes: they shouldn't be assuming that just because it's there, they can beat it or scare it off. Sometimes the best plan is to run away and let big monsters win and kill everyone else. You can't always be a hero and save the town. And sometimes you can, but some of you die in the process. Like true Heroes.

Modules (and modern gaming in general) do a bad job of training players to think their PCs can always win, and yeah, they get salty when one is "poorly designed" or "run wrong" and it results in a PC death because something isn't in the correct power band for them to defeat. And unfortunately, that means you DO have to tell players outright that they can't always expect their PCs to win or not run away in session 0.

[Mikal]

On the other hand, "trusting the DM / module writer to never put you against an enemy you can't defeat" is a frequent behaviour for players.

Well that’s on the players for making such an assumption. A players bad habits only compounds the error in judgment the player made.

This wasn’t a gotcha situation either- it’s literally a huge adult dragon wrecking the crap out of people. Nothing was hidden, it wasn’t like a little boy who’s secretly a level 20 vampire monk waiting for the PCs to pick on them.

Literally huge, adult dragon, causing the archers to sizzle and fry with a mighty breath weapon.

[Boci]

Well that’s on the players for making such an assumption. A players bad habits only compounds the error in judgment the player made.

This wasn’t a gotcha situation either- it’s literally a huge adult dragon wrecking the crap out of people. Nothing was hidden, it wasn’t like a little boy who’s secretly a level 20 vampire monk waiting for the PCs to pick on them.

Literally huge, adult dragon, causing the archers to sizzle and fry with a mighty breath weapon.

The problem is, its still a module. Modules expect players to do stuff. In some games "no thanks I'm going to sit this fight out" or "no thanks, I don't fancy hunting those guys down" is a legitimate choice for players to make, but modules are rarely equipt to deal with that.

So the module requires the players to know they are in a module and participate in the action in some way, but also spot clues of where telegraphed they're not meant to go yet. Not unreasonable, but can be a bit inorganic. I remember rolling my eyes at the rat encounter. "We're in a D&D module, so ofcourse the rats want to eat us". Another player figured shaking a torch at them would cause them to flee, and in all fairness to them, the MM does not that rat swarms are not natural and need to be given malevolent purpose, tpyically through magic.

For my part I don't understand why the dragon was neccissary. I've heard its to keep the guards penned in the fort, but weren't they already penned in between the powerful half-dragon leader, numerical suppriority of the raiders and support from guard drakes?

[Mr Adventurer]

This wasn’t a gotcha situation either- it’s literally a huge adult dragon wrecking the crap out of people. Nothing was hidden, it wasn’t like a little boy who’s secretly a level 20 vampire monk waiting for the PCs to pick on them.


The module literally includes hidden rules that make the encounter easier.

[MoiMagnus]

Well that’s on the players for making such an assumption. A players bad habits only compounds the error in judgment the player made.

Except they are right, and as the module proved, they was a secret DM fiat included to make them somewhat win the encounter.
Because that's how module works. That's an assumption that the players might reasonably make because that's how module writers frequently write module.

I might be biased by the fact that on this forum, you hear more often about badly written modules than good ones. But "seemingly invincible bad guy that you should actually try to battle to make the plot advance, counting on a Deus Ex Machina to save you" to be the end seems like a frequent choice from writers. (most often him fleeing because he is supposed to be a later boss just included in the encounter for a "cutscene")

[TIPOT]

I'm not sure silent image works on dragons anyway, don't they have blindsight and could tell by smell/sound it's two people in a dragonshaped trenchcoat?

[Mikal]

Except they are right, and as the module proved, they was a secret DM fiat included to make them somewhat win the encounter.
Because that's how module works. That's an assumption that the players might reasonably make because that's how module writers frequently write module.

Ok. There’s a difference between “dragon leaves after several arrows or one good arrow hits it” and “party stupidly comes up with ‘clever’ plan that can potentially backfire spectacularly for no gain”.

The point of this was to show off the dragon as a potential and future challenge, not necessarily to defeat it. The players (or one of them specifically per the OP) decided for whatever reason to attack it head on with an illusion and weak attack spell.

Which is fine. People do that. The ISSUE is that the player who came up with the plan then got butt hurt because it didn’t work out exactly like they planned. That’s the issue here.

Regardless of if you’re playing a module or not, making assumptions can backfire. This one did, and the player got upset about it. The player in this case is simply in the wrong. Not for coming up with a plan, but for assuming that because this is dnd the plan will work because it’s a PC plan.



The module literally includes hidden rules that make the encounter easier.

Yes? And? So?


The problem is, its still a module. Modules expect players to do stuff. In some games "no thanks I'm going to sit this fight out" or "no thanks, I don't fancy hunting those guys down" is a legitimate choice for players to make, but modules are rarely equipt to deal with that.

No. The problem is that a single player made assumptions, convinced the rest of the players to go along with it, and got upset when those assumptions didn’t end the way the player wanted them to. Period. The module isn’t the best, but in this specific case it’s fairly easy to see that this dragon isn’t something you’d want to go toe to toe with or engage at your current ability when you meet it. The player however, decided “well it’s a module and despite all the evidence before me I’m a PC so I’m going to succeed.”

And then.. didn’t.

[Keravath]

As a DM it can be difficult to make the best most consistent choices on the fly. However, in this case, I don't think the decisions made were necessarily consistent with THIS blue dragon or with the intent of the module.

Why do I say this?

The module states that the dragon decides to flee after 5% of its hit points or one critical hit. This is NOT a prideful, fight to the death, blue dragon. It is either a cowardly one or one with something better to do than fight. Could the blue dragon choose to fight? Yes, it would then slaughter the party and all of the archers and other supporting cast. The module explicitly states it won't do this.

So, why decide that when the blue dragon sees an unexpected gold dragon appear it suddenly decides to fight rather than run? The DM knows the blue dragon has nothing to fear, that it will kill the players in one turn. However, the blue dragon does not know that. It sees a threat (if it believes the illusion) that is at least an order of magnitude more challenging than the paltry archers and the party. Logically, if the blue dragon will flee from a single critical hit or 5% of its hit points in damage ... it WILL decide to flee from a gold dragon ... because, for some reason, the module already implies that the blue dragon isn't interested in any sort of fight, even one it is sure it can win. Faced with one it can't, why would it stay?

The players know they can't engage an adult dragon, it will likely kill them. Their plan is a very cool way to try to scare off the dragon. This is what the module WANTS to have happen from a meta-gaming point of view since if it will flee from a critical hit or a little bit of damage.

Honestly, from both a fun role playing perspective, rule of cool, AND the module perspective (since the blue dragon would flee from a critical hit) ... I would say that getting this illusion working is at a minimum the equivalent of a critical hit and likely a lot more. So how much damage the dragon may or may not have taken when it flew into a wall is irrelevant (unless the DM decides that the ONLY reason it will leave is 5% damage or a critical hit which is consistent with what is written but not the spirit of what is written or apparently intended - the blue dragon is NOT supposed to stick around and fight). If the DM feels that way, just cause lots of damage with the wall collision and have it run off.

Basically, the module WANTS the dragon to leave. It is not intended to engage either the party or the troops on the ground other than for flavour purposes. As a DM, knowing this, why would the DM decide to have the dragon turn around and attack the party? If the dragon is leaving after a single crit or 5% damage ... it is NOT a dragon that wants to fight and I think the DM missed that point in deciding the dragon will turn around and fight the unexpected appearance of a gold dragon (which, by the way, the dragon realizes is not real as soon as it tries to attack the illusion - at which point it really would just eat the party members).

[Mr Adventurer]

Yes? And? So?

My dude, you were talking about whether information was hidden from the players in the post of yours that I quoted. You called it "gotcha", but also went on to describe the obvious elements of the encounter. So I pointed out that there was, in fact, hidden information. Drop the attitude.

[Mikal]

My dude, you were talking about whether information was hidden from the players in the post of yours that I quoted. You called it "gotcha", but also went on to describe the obvious elements of the encounter. So I pointed out that there was, in fact, hidden information. Drop the attitude.

No dude I wasn’t talking about whether information was hidden from the players. Information should always be hidden from the players to a degree, so they can discover it.

What I said was that this dragon was an obvious on the surface threat that was pretty deadly based on the facts at hand, and when the players decided to attack it head on with an illusion and second level spell, any sort of retaliation isn’t a gotcha moment, verses my example of the wolf in sheep’s clothing. The hidden portion is that obvious threat the dragon can provide if attacked head on.

So yeah. Sorry that your failure to get the point comes off as some sort of attitude to you.

[Squeeq]

They're clearly neither attacking it head on or going toe-to-toe with it, they're making an illusion to have it seem like there's a big enough threat to scare it off, and the module as written wants the dragon to leave, because it doesn't have a big interest in it, and getting scratched up in a fight against a tower is not in its interests, whereas the big cart of loot being dragged away at the same time IS in its interests. The players have a creative plan to use the tools they have to try and repel an enemy, they do well, roll well, we all know the dragon doesn't wanna stick around anyway, be fans of the players, let their trick work, they earned it, it's fun when you have a plan and it fires off well.

The weird complicating bit of the situation here is that since the chromatic dragons are on a big tear right now, a metallic dragon might be the one thing that DOES get another dragon to stick around, because it has a vendetta, unless it decides to run because "none of you *******s told me there were gold dragons here!" You could probably work this around by it trying to wriggle into the tower and getting itself sort of stuck partway, letting the characters get pot shots at its sides while its head and claws are somewhere else until it breaks free or something. Then you get a good sense of it being dangerous and up close before it breaks free of the tower and flies off. That can be a cool teaser later, for why this dragon that was doing bombing runs suddenly decides to try for a big fistfight as soon as it sees another dragon.

Ultimately, I think the toughest part of some of the scenarios like this in modules is that there's sort of a level of implicit trust, especially when the DM is using a book, that it doesn't throw immediate game-over encounters at you. It's not going to have the dragon try to actively kill all the characters, they'd die right away, obviously. So when something that's just obviously way beyond the character's weight class, the assumption is generally that there's going to be something that's not just a straight fight, there's either a secret, or a way to negotiate, or something else that makes it possible to survive. Whenever a situation like this comes up, it turns into a guessing game of trying to figure out what the catch is in the encounter. Do you need to scare it off? Do you need to give it a tribute so it'll leave? Damage it a bit? Maybe beat up some of its henchmen so they retreat and it goes with them? I don't think the module really gives the players any advice on what to do, but it doesn't want the dragon to just kill them, so hey, why not let whatever their plan is work so they can be miracle heroes of the town?

Also, if a dragon crashing into a stone tower does 1d8 damage, I'm dying to know how little jumping off the top of the tower would do :P

[TigerT20]

Can I just repeat the earlier stated fact that the dragon has blindsight? Wouldn't it be wondering why this new dragon actually consists of some blobs inside the head and nothing else? Blue dragons are supposed to be some of the smarter dragons, so it may notice that its normal vision isnt matching its blindsight.

[Keravath]

Can I just repeat the earlier stated fact that the dragon has blindsight? Wouldn't it be wondering why this new dragon actually consists of some blobs inside the head and nothing else? Blue dragons are supposed to be some of the smarter dragons, so it may notice that its normal vision isnt matching its blindsight.

The dragon only has 60' blindsight so as soon as it got anywhere near the illusion, it would be obvious what it was and the plan wouldn't work. On the other hand, outside 60' the blue dragon could potentially be intimidated into leaving, especially after crashing into a wall.

It really depends on how the DM wants to play it. Have the dragon engage if they want a couple of characters dead. Come up with some reason for the dragon to leave if the DM would rather they survive. However, depending on whether the blue dragon had its breath weapon available and how far the players were from the tower in order to retreat ... they could potentially retreat into the tower and hide from the dragon.

However, the illusion ruse is by no means an attempt to attack the dragon "head on". They are attempting to trick it into leaving. The players do NOT know that it will flee after taking a bit of damage or a crit. They don't know they are supposed to attack it and it will run away since, honestly, from a character perspective, attacking it seems like a very bad idea. If you want to survive, you are probably better off hiding. The plan the players came up with was cool and should have had a decent chance of working and would have fitted very well with the planned encounter storyline which the players obviously don't know. The DM decided otherwise ... and that is fine too ... it is their game and the DM just has to come up with another way that it makes narrative sense for the dragon to leave since that is what the dragon is supposed to do anyway.



P.S. Silent image isn't 15 cubic feet it is a 15' cube which is 15x15x15' ... which also happens to be the size required for a huge creature so it is potentially possible to realistically simulate a dragon.

[JackPhoenix]

P.S. Silent image isn't 15 cubic feet it is a 15' cube which is 15x15x15' ... which also happens to be the size required for a huge creature so it is potentially possible to realistically simulate a dragon.

It's an area a huge creture controls in combat. It's not its size. Dragons, especially with spread wings and extended tail and neck, are bigger than that. A storm giant is 26' tall, which is 10' more than a hill giant, and 11' more than 15', but they are still just huge.

[ButzSanchez]

I'm not sure silent image works on dragons anyway, don't they have blindsight and could tell by smell/sound it's two people in a dragonshaped trenchcoat?

They were kinda hidden from it as it swooped by and just suddenly jumped it. Whether or not the dragon would be able to see through it, I decided it was still surprised enough to get a reaction and throw it off it's guard.

[Tanarii]

Ultimately, I think the toughest part of some of the scenarios like this in modules is that there's sort of a level of implicit trust, especially when the DM is using a book, that it doesn't throw immediate game-over encounters at you. It's not going to have the dragon try to actively kill all the characters, they'd die right away, obviously. So when something that's just obviously way beyond the character's weight class, the assumption is generally that there's going to be something that's not just a straight fight, there's either a secret, or a way to negotiate, or something else that makes it possible to survive. Whenever a situation like this comes up, it turns into a guessing game of trying to figure out what the catch is in the encounter. Do you need to scare it off? Do you need to give it a tribute so it'll leave? Damage it a bit? Maybe beat up some of its henchmen so they retreat and it goes with them? I don't think the module really gives the players any advice on what to do, but it doesn't want the dragon to just kill them, so hey, why not let whatever their plan is work so they can be miracle heroes of the town?Run away because the DM rolled on the wilderness encounter chart, % in lair, and maxed number encountered, so your first encounter is 300 damn Orcs?

[Laserlight]

"trusting the judgment of WotC to be fair and balanced."

I see your problem right there.

[Benny89]

I just made it Young Blue Dragon and he fought players + all keep archers/guards on the roofs and I pretty much made him attack mostly guards and in the end they killed him. It was epic but not unfair.

Then we dropped the module at around level 9-10

Because this was one of the worst, illogical, stupid and bad written module I have ever played.

Honestly I can give you one piece of advice - before your players get to Warterdeep - ditch out this campaign and start your own one.

No matter how bad you think you may do with custom campaign - trust me you will do better than this piece of poop. Because it's absolutely chore to play through and it's so boring that I was falling asleep DMing it.