Expertise Choice

[elyktsorb]

Okay so. I was wondering, I'm a Thief Rogue, close to hitting level 6. I didn't take Expertise in Stealth at 1st lvl, I put it into Sleight of Hand and Thieve's Tools.

So at lvl 6 I get the choice of 2 more Expertise, Perception is probably going to be one of them, but I've been wondering if I even need Stealth expertise, because in 3 lvls I'm going to have advantage on any Stealth Check I make at half movement speed, and that + Expertise in Stealth seems like overkill. So I was wondering how the numbers shake out, and if it would be more worthwhile to put the Expertise into a different skill, like Persuasion or Deception.

[nickl_2000]

So you have played the character and the campaign for awhile now. What skills are you using more often, Stealth, Persuasion, Deception, or something else?

[Segev]

How much have you felt the pinch on Stealth as it is? Have you failed a lot and regretted it? Or have you generally succeeded and not felt like it was all that risky? Or have you even used it all that much?

How often have you used the other skills you're considering, and how many times have you failed at it and cursed your low result?

By this point, you should have a feel for this DM and this campaign and how often you use various skills. I would put Expertise on one that you use a lot AND have at least a 30% fail rate, or feel like you fail more often than you'd like.


To answer your question, I would just go over to anydice.com. It's a tool that you playing around with will probably tell you more than I could with a couple of examples.

In extremely rough numbers, as long as you're not rolling high enough that this would push you over your maximum possible real result, Advantage is roughly with +5 to the roll. It won't increase your maximum, but it has a very roughly 25% increase to your probability of success, depending on the relative DC and your bonus.

[elyktsorb]

Well here's the thing, I've taken the charlatan background and as such I have an airtight alter-ego that I can masquerade as. As such, I find myself not having to make many stealth or deception checks, since the charlatan background feature establishes you have this alter-ego as a real person, it's completely set up, as long as I don't say anything stupid, it never really harms my character. I do occasionally make hide checks during combat, but barring an exceptionally low roll I'm usually fine on those and my team stays a lot closer to enemies and that lets me get off my Sneak Attacks.

I have a feeling I may need higher stealth down the line, but down the line I'm looking at Advantage on pretty much all stealth checks (as long as I move at half movement speed) so I'm still unsure if I need Expertise + that, as I tested Expertise + Advantage quite a bit and it is pretty much the 'I will never be bad at stealth barring a roll of 2-6 (since as a halfling I get to re-roll those 1's)

How many times have I failed any of these rolls? Pretty much never, but that comes down to the fact that I'm very aware of my rolls, and if I were to fail one, due to the setting it could be quite dire. To that end I'm considering Insight as one of the skills I might prefer over Stealth, or Deception/Persuasion. Since I often roll all of these skills at pretty much the same amount, and my Cha based skills are only 1 point behind my Dex based skills at the moment. And heck by lvl 9 when I get advantage my Dex will be 20 so that's an even higher Stealth.

The only times I've come close to blundering any of my rolls has been when i've rolled a 1, but I get to re-roll all of those as a halfling, and I almost always roll significantly better after rolling a 1 (Much to my DM's regret since we do work off of 1's as crit fails)

[nickl_2000]

Given what you said I don't think you will need expertise in Stealth. Why don't you go for perception and something else?

[ZRN]

I'd consider a few things:

1. Is there someone else in the party who's good at stuff like persuasion and deception? If you're the de facto "face" of the party who does all the talking, expertise in Persuasion and/or Deception can be more important.

2. Regardless of how much you use it or how often you fail right now - would you LIKE to do a bunch of crazy sneaking around stuff? Scouting ahead of the party, pickpocketing rich nobles at a court banquet, etc? Because if you're using your stealth skill to do risky solo stuff, blowing one roll can make you die. Supreme Sneak is very cool, but you get Reliable Talent a couple levels after it anyway, so your stealth rolls aren't going to be terrible regardless; the question is whether you want your minimum roll at level 12 to be like a 17 or like a 22.

[elyktsorb]

Given what you said I don't think you will need expertise in Stealth. Why don't you go for perception and something else?

I'm definitely going for perception, I will be super happy to have a 20 in my passive perception soon. Honestly if I could I'd put it into Disguise Kit/Forgery Kit. Maybe I'll talk with my DM about that.

I'm leaning on Insight as the 2nd option, but I could easily get a lot of use out of Deception/Persuasion Expertise.

[Segev]

I'm definitely going for perception, I will be super happy to have a 20 in my passive perception soon. Honestly if I could I'd put it into Disguise Kit/Forgery Kit. Maybe I'll talk with my DM about that.

I'm leaning on Insight as the 2nd option, but I could easily get a lot of use out of Deception/Persuasion Expertise.

Are you proficient with them? Can't Expertise go into any tools you have proficiency with? Or is it explicitly limited to Thieves' Tools?

[elyktsorb]

I'd consider a few things:

1. Is there someone else in the party who's good at stuff like persuasion and deception? If you're the de facto "face" of the party who does all the talking, expertise in Persuasion and/or Deception can be more important.

2. Regardless of how much you use it or how often you fail right now - would you LIKE to do a bunch of crazy sneaking around stuff? Scouting ahead of the party, pickpocketing rich nobles at a court banquet, etc? Because if you're using your stealth skill to do risky solo stuff, blowing one roll can make you die. Supreme Sneak is very cool, but you get Reliable Talent a couple levels after it anyway, so your stealth rolls aren't going to be terrible regardless; the question is whether you want your minimum roll at level 12 to be like a 17 or like a 22.

1. Haha yes, but this campaign is sort of a pollitical intrigue thing so the fact that my 'team mates' are also good at deception/persuasion is also a point of contention between us as much as a boon for certain exchanges.

2. Well by 11th lvl my minimum stealth roll without expertise will be 19. With expertise it would be 23. Even at lvl 11 a 19 minimum is pretty decent. AND that's disregarding the fact that I would have Advantage on that roll for most circumstances by that point.

EDIT: Rogue expertise is explicitly limited to Thieve's Tools in terms of tool proficiency. Bard expertise won't let you choose any tool proficiency's at all, just skill proficiency's.

[JellyPooga]

I'm personally a big fan of Insight Expertise. Knowing your enemy is half the battle and Insight is the skill for this. This goes double if the campaign is largely political/intrigue and if you're a Charlatan!

So yeah, my advice is to go with your gut and take Insight.

[Keravath]

On my rogue, I took expertise in stealth, perception, investigation and thieves tools so he could be very good at finding/removing traps and opening locks as well as sneaking. I didn't take sleight of hand because it didn't seem to come up very often (I don't tend to use pickpocketing for example) and even without expertise, a rogue is good at it with high dex.

However, stealth is one where I wanted it as high as possible. Rogues can hide as a bonus action. If the rogue is invisible and the opponent can't see through invisibility or if there is something convenient to hide behind the a rogue can hide to enable both advantage and sneak attack against their targets.

Many low level creatures have a passive perception of 10 making even just proficiency + dex enough to successfully hide. At level 6 with 18 dex that is a +7 ... sounds good since you only fail on a 3 or less. However, MANY of the higher level creatures you run into will have a much higher passive perception. Do you want to have a hope of hiding behind the wall from a dragon? To have the same chance of successfully hiding from a creature with a passive perception of 20 .. you need a +17. This requires level 17, expertise and +5 from dexterity. Add in reliable talent and you will have a minimum of 28 which will let you hide from almost everything. However, without expertise, this becomes "just" a 21. +11 combined with 10 from reliable talent. Adult dragons have a passive in the 22 range. This means that you only have a 50% chance to successfully hide from most dragons. Even a young blue dragon which you could encounter as low as level 6-8 has a PP of 19. Your odds of hiding against it with only a +7 aren't that great. It gets better with a +10 from expertise.

Is it worth using expertise on stealth for these and other high passive perception creatures? That is up to you, personally, I think of stealth as one of the defining characteristics of the rogue and the last thing I want to do is fail a stealth check trying to sneak past a resting dragon.

[Keravath]

1. Haha yes, but this campaign is sort of a pollitical intrigue thing so the fact that my 'team mates' are also good at deception/persuasion is also a point of contention between us as much as a boon for certain exchanges.

2. Well by 11th lvl my minimum stealth roll without expertise will be 19. With expertise it would be 23. Even at lvl 11 a 19 minimum is pretty decent. AND that's disregarding the fact that I would have Advantage on that roll for most circumstances by that point.

EDIT: Rogue expertise is explicitly limited to Thieve's Tools in terms of tool proficiency. Bard expertise won't let you choose any tool proficiency's at all, just skill proficiency's.

Keep in mind that at level 11, that 19 is not only the minimum but it is also what you will roll 1/2 the time. If you have a creature with a passive perception of 19 or over, then you will fail your stealth checks 1/2 the time. Dragons are one example with a high passive. Even a young blue dragon has a PP of 19. 1/2 the time you would fail a stealth check against a young blue dragon. Of course this depends on whether your campaign will have monsters with high passive perception. However, a base 23 in stealth will allow you to automatically successfully hide (assuming you have something to hide behind) against anything up to 22 passive perception which includes a number of adult dragons and other creatures.

Whether that is a worthwhile consideration will depend on whether you expect to ever have to deal with creatures with a high passive perception but if you DO have to deal with them and their PP is above your stealth score+10 you will fail your stealth check 1/2 the time while if it is not, you will succeed 100% of the time.

[Chronos]

Short answer, there are always going to be more things that you want expertise in than you can actually take. You're going to have to prioritize, based on what you use more often, and what you need the bonus in more. Stealth is one of the ones you'd ideally like, but it may or may not be best for you.