What physical stats do you use for an Ogre Mage polymorphed into a human?

[eyebreaker7]

"Change Shape (Su)
An ogre mage can assume the form of any Small, Medium, or Large humanoid or giant."
How does this change work? Is it a polymorph spell? If so:

Polymorph: "The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores."

Would you just reduce his physical stats by their bonus or would they remain the same?


If it's just a normal change and no stats change why not? I'm all for them NOT changing but if they do for a poly spell I don't see why they wouldn't for the change shape ability?

[Emperor Tippy]

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#changeShape


Changing shape results in the following changes to the creature:


The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form.
The creature loses the natural weapons and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature).
The creature gains the natural weapons, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.
The creature retains all other special attacks and qualities of its original form, except for breath weapons and gaze attacks.
The creature retains the ability scores of its original form.
Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses.
The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components.
The creature is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form, and gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise.
Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and viceversa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped.


The one question is whether the size change also changes the scores. This is a bit hazy as normally a size change affects Str and Dex scores but Change Shape specifically says that the creature retains the ability scores of its original form.

If you reduce scores from the size change, a Medium form reduces Str by 8 while increasing Dex by 2 while a small form would reduce Str by 12 and increase Dex by 4.

RAW, the size change probably shouldn't be held to alter stats given the specific statement that the creature retains the ability scores of its origional form.

[Calthropstu]

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#changeShape



The one question is whether the size change also changes the scores. This is a bit hazy as normally a size change affects Str and Dex scores but Change Shape specifically says that the creature retains the ability scores of its original form.

If you reduce scores from the size change, a Medium form reduces Str by 8 while increasing Dex by 2 while a small form would reduce Str by 12 and increase Dex by 4.

RAW, the size change probably shouldn't be held to alter stats given the specific statement that the creature retains the ability scores of its origional form.

The base strength score does not change, however it WOULD lose any size and racial modifier to strength, gaining the size and racial modifier to strength of the new form. So if it changed into an Orc, for example, it would have the +4 racial bonus that an orc has.

[PrismCat21]

You don't actually change into that creature. You gain the appearance of that specific creature.
Your ability scores will stay the same, EXCEPT for size modifiers as you physically change size.

[Emperor Tippy]

The base strength score does not change, however it WOULD lose any size and racial modifier to strength, gaining the size and racial modifier to strength of the new form. So if it changed into an Orc, for example, it would have the +4 racial bonus that an orc has.

Change Shape doesn't say base strength. It says the ability scores of your original form. That your original form is large and thus your score is higher is irrelevant. Nor does anything even imply that racial bonuses go away; in point of fact that directly contradicts Change Shape as it says you keep the attribute scores of your original form.


You don't actually change into that creature. You gain the appearance of that specific creature.
Your ability scores will stay the same, EXCEPT for size modifiers as you physically change size.

Your reasoning? I mean the general rule is that a size change reduces/increases ability scores but Change Shape has the specific rule that you keep the ability scores of your original form and size would be part of that.

If you changed size after changing shape then, of course, the size change would affect scores. And if you changed size before you changed shape then, again, that size change would affect scores. But since the size change is part of Change Shape and Change Shape says you keep your original scores, that specific rule should trump the general rule that size changes change scores.

[Sword Magess]

You retain the original ability scores. You do not reduce the score based on the change in size. You can see this from the way the change is written:


The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form.
[...]
The creature retains the ability scores of its original form.
From the first rule, you can see that size is a property of a creature's form. Otherwise, the phrase "size of its new form" would not make sense.

Size is a property of the creatures form. Retaining the ability scores of a creature's form--without further elaboration--, must mean retaining the ability modifiers associated with the original form's size.

[Psyren]

If it helps with adjudicating this, Pathfinder is explicit that it would keep the ability scores of the base creature:


Change Shape (Su)

A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities. A creature cannot change shape to a form more than one size category smaller or larger than its original form. This ability functions as a polymorph spell, the type of which is listed in the creature’s description, but the creature does not adjust its ability scores (although it gains any other abilities of the creature it mimics).

So an Ogre Mage (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/oni/oni-ogre-mage/) in PF who turns into a human would keep its large Str, Dex and Con scores.