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heavyfuel
2020-05-08, 06:09 PM
Is there any class or subclass/archetype that gives at will abilities other than Cantrips and attacks?

Coming from 3.5 and PF, those are the types of characters I usually play. However, they seem non existant in 5e. Pretty much anything that isn't an attack or a cantrip is locked behind uses per short or long rest.

I'd even take something that gives you uses every time initiative is rolled (there are some abilities like that, but they all seem to be very high level).

UA is fair game, but we try to avoid homebrew.

Thanks!

Edit - Just clarify things a bit: The reason I want at-will abilities (plural) is because I find doing the same thing (usually attacking) every round to be about as fun stepping on lego. With this in mind, I was looking for suggestions on characters with options. Unfortunately, spell casters are very slot starved in the early game, and casting firebolt/EB every round falls in the stepping on lego territory.

Would a "Master of Cantrips" work? A Bard/Warlock/Sorcerer/Paladin with Blessed Warrior. Getting like a dozen cantrips to use at will?

CheddarChampion
2020-05-08, 06:30 PM
Other than expertise and ritual casting...

Wizard 18 gets you a first and a second level spell at will.
Warlock invocations like MoMF, Misty Visions, Otherworldly Leap, Visions of Distant Realms, and Whispers of the Grave give you certain at will spells.
Feats from UA: Feats for Skills.

stoutstien
2020-05-08, 06:32 PM
Changelings getting the ability to alter their appearance at will is up there.

Nagog
2020-05-08, 08:00 PM
Coming from Pathfinder myself, one of the big adjustments is that 5e is a resource management system a bit more than a skill system. This is due to 5e having a Bounded Accuracy system (upper power limits and skill caps) that means anybody can accomplish a task, rather than Pathfinder's roadblocks most of the time.being "The Lock's DC is 45 and I only have a +20 to lockpicking right now".

However if you're looking for a resource easy build, go Warlock. Warlocks mostly rely on their cantrips and Invocations, many of which are either passive abilities or at will uses. Your spell slots are limited, but they refresh on a short rest so with a decently paced campaign you'll never feel like you're tapped out.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2020-05-08, 09:01 PM
Apart from cantrips, weapon attacks, skill checks, and thing like the Rogue's cunning action (or just play a goblin), there's close to zero at-will abilities apart from certain invocations and maybe some feats. Even then, the invocations that grant at-will spells are few and far between. Early game you've got Misty Visions, Beast Speech, Mask of Many Faces, and Fiendish Vigor, but then I don't think there's any more until 9th+ level. I wouldn't even bother getting half of those, definitely Misty Visions and maybe Fiendish Vigor to spam it until you roll max between encounters, but you can replace one each time you level up so that wouldn't last long.

Pretty much everything a Rogue gets is usable at-will, unless you go Arcane Trickster of course. Apart from the 20th level ability and some archetypes' 17th level ability, it looks like everything is only limited by your action economy or per-round for sneak attack (and you can sneak attack again on someone else's turn if you can use a reaction).

Maybe mix Warlock (Hexblade) and Rogue (Swashbuckler), focusing on Cha with medium armor and a shield. Get Pact of the Blade with Improved Pact Weapon if you want 3+ levels of Warlock, otherwise just stick to one. Swashbuckler even gets an at-will charm ability at 9th level! You would want to start out as Rogue at 1st for the skills, probably go Half-Elf for Cha and even more skills, and of course go Sailor (pirate) for your background. This is totally going to be my next character.

Man_Over_Game
2020-05-08, 09:22 PM
Nearly every Ranger has one:
Hunter: Volley, Whirlwind
Horizon Walker: Teleport Strike, Force damage
Beastmaster: Pet attacks
Gloomstalker: Every Initiative roll, gain an extra attack and a bonus to your Initiative.

Warlocks have a bunch through their Invocations.

Kensei Monk can enhance their attack or defense as-needed.

Multiple Wizard schools have at-will powers, like creating solid objects out of magic or turning wood into stone and vice-versa.

Storm Herald Barbarians activate their auras at-will while raging.

Ancestral Guardian Barbarians taunt enemies they hit while raging.

Vengeance Paladins improve all Opportunity Attacks for no extra cost.

Can't think of many more beyond that.

iTreeby
2020-05-08, 10:30 PM
Echo Knight has some good at wills centered around tactical movementswith its manifest echo ability.

heavyfuel
2020-05-08, 10:51 PM
Just clarify things a bit: The reason I want at-will abilities (plural) is because I find doing the same thing (usually attacking) every round to be about as fun stepping on lego. With this in mind, I was looking for suggestions on characters with options. Unfortunately, spell casters are very slot starved in the early game, and casting firebolt/EB every round falls in the stepping on lego territory.


Apart from cantrips, weapon attacks, skill checks, and thing like the Rogue's cunning action (or just play a goblin), there's close to zero at-will abilities apart from certain invocations and maybe some feats. Even then, the invocations that grant at-will spells are few and far between. Early game you've got Misty Visions, Beast Speech, Mask of Many Faces, and Fiendish Vigor, but then I don't think there's any more until 9th+ level. I wouldn't even bother getting half of those, definitely Misty Visions and maybe Fiendish Vigor to spam it until you roll max between encounters, but you can replace one each time you level up so that wouldn't last long.

Pretty much everything a Rogue gets is usable at-will, unless you go Arcane Trickster of course. Apart from the 20th level ability and some archetypes' 17th level ability, it looks like everything is only limited by your action economy or per-round for sneak attack (and you can sneak attack again on someone else's turn if you can use a reaction).

Maybe mix Warlock (Hexblade) and Rogue (Swashbuckler), focusing on Cha with medium armor and a shield. Get Pact of the Blade with Improved Pact Weapon if you want 3+ levels of Warlock, otherwise just stick to one. Swashbuckler even gets an at-will charm ability at 9th level! You would want to start out as Rogue at 1st for the skills, probably go Half-Elf for Cha and even more skills, and of course go Sailor (pirate) for your background. This is totally going to be my next character.

Damn, if I didn't think dipping Hexblade was cheesy as hell, I'd be all for this build. Sounds really cool to play with.


Other than expertise and ritual casting...

Wizard 18 gets you a first and a second level spell at will.
Warlock invocations like MoMF, Misty Visions, Otherworldly Leap, Visions of Distant Realms, and Whispers of the Grave give you certain at will spells.
Feats from UA: Feats for Skills.

Had completely forgotten about Ritual Casting.


Coming from Pathfinder myself, one of the big adjustments is that 5e is a resource management system a bit more than a skill system. This is due to 5e having a Bounded Accuracy system (upper power limits and skill caps) that means anybody can accomplish a task, rather than Pathfinder's roadblocks most of the time.being "The Lock's DC is 45 and I only have a +20 to lockpicking right now".

However if you're looking for a resource easy build, go Warlock. Warlocks mostly rely on their cantrips and Invocations, many of which are either passive abilities or at will uses. Your spell slots are limited, but they refresh on a short rest so with a decently paced campaign you'll never feel like you're tapped out.

I've tried playing a Warlock before. You know in videogames, where you never want to use consumables because you might need them later? That's how it felt to cast a spell with their super low number of spells per rest (even if it's a short rest) lol


Nearly every Ranger has one:
Hunter: Volley, Whirlwind
Horizon Walker: Teleport Strike, Force damage
Beastmaster: Pet attacks
Gloomstalker: Every Initiative roll, gain an extra attack and a bonus to your Initiative.

Warlocks have a bunch through their Invocations.

Kensei Monk can enhance their attack or defense as-needed.

Multiple Wizard schools have at-will powers, like creating solid objects out of magic or turning wood into stone and vice-versa.


All very interesting suggestions. Will take a special look at Wizard schools. Thanks!

OracularPoet
2020-05-08, 11:11 PM
Maybe a grappling thief? Fast Hands for bonus action object interaction, in combat pick pocketing, tossing around caltrops, ball barrings, acid, etc. Grappling for fun and hazard interactions? Basically, use you imagination based on what’s on the board.

Aussiehams
2020-05-08, 11:33 PM
Remember you can grapple, shove, knock prone etc. It doesn't always have to be swinging a sword etc.

Daithi
2020-05-08, 11:35 PM
Echo Knight has some good at wills centered around tactical movementswith its manifest echo ability.

I'll second this recommendation. You basically can Misty Step at will. You just keep teleporting all over the place.

Take a look at this at 0:37 and 1:39 ---
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i16sPjcJig

That's how I envision the Echo Knight. Pairs really well with a Bladesinger or just go straight Echo Knight. Also works well with Sentinel feat because you limit their speed to 0. There's some good YouTube videos on playing the Echo Knight as well.

MaxWilson
2020-05-08, 11:36 PM
Just clarify things a bit: The reason I want at-will abilities (plural) is because I find doing the same thing (usually attacking) every round to be about as fun stepping on lego. With this in mind, I was looking for suggestions on characters with options. Unfortunately, spell casters are very slot starved in the early game, and casting firebolt/EB every round falls in the stepping on lego territory.

All very interesting suggestions. Will take a special look at Wizard schools. Thanks!

If you take a multiclass dip for good armor (AC 18-21ish), Enchanters are very fun. At-will Hypnotic Gaze and at-will Instinctive Charm. Note that Hypnotic Gaze breaks on damage, but you can tie them up, put them in handcuffs, blindfold them, etc., etc., all without breaking Hypnotic Gaze, so it's better than it looks at first although it does cost the Enchanter's action each round to maintain (but not their concentration), so don't use it when you're heavily-outnumbered and need to be casting other spells like Fireball.

OldTrees1
2020-05-08, 11:54 PM
A ratio of 2 parts Paladin and 1 part Warlock can act as a short rest Paladin. That is close to having at will cool abilities.

Augment you choices with Booming Blade / Green Flame Blade and some at-will Invocations.

Sigreid
2020-05-08, 11:58 PM
This is kind of what warlock invocations are for.

Eldariel
2020-05-09, 01:43 AM
Cantrips in this edition are hideously powerful, pretty cool and at-will. I'd say Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, Shape Water are the most interesting and Guidance & co. are cool as well. One of the selling points of the first 3 are that they all work great with creativity and they actually have combat uses thanks to their cast time and them being able to do nearly anything. Prestidigitation and Thaumaturgy are also cool and can be quite useful.

BloodSnake'sCha
2020-05-09, 02:51 AM
Monks get some at level 6:
Shadow - bonus action teleport from shadow to shadow.
Long death - AOE fear
The feat Drow high magic gives you detect magic at will.

heavyfuel
2020-05-09, 08:42 AM
Echo Knight has some good at wills centered around tactical movementswith its manifest echo ability.

I had actually seen the Echo Knight and loved the concept. Definitely something to keep in mind.


Maybe a grappling thief? Fast Hands for bonus action object interaction, in combat pick pocketing, tossing around caltrops, ball barrings, acid, etc. Grappling for fun and hazard interactions? Basically, use you imagination based on what’s on the board.


Remember you can grapple, shove, knock prone etc. It doesn't always have to be swinging a sword etc.

Unfortunately, without significant investment, all of these options are straigth up subpar. Grapple is limited by size and doesn't do much. Shoving/Tripping a target is similarly subpar as the enemy can negate your action (if successful) with a few feet of movement.

Not saying these aren't situationally powerful, but that's it. It's not something you want to be doing every combat round.

Unless I'm missing something?


If you take a multiclass dip for good armor (AC 18-21ish), Enchanters are very fun. At-will Hypnotic Gaze and at-will Instinctive Charm. Note that Hypnotic Gaze breaks on damage, but you can tie them up, put them in handcuffs, blindfold them, etc., etc., all without breaking Hypnotic Gaze, so it's better than it looks at first although it does cost the Enchanter's action each round to maintain (but not their concentration), so don't use it when you're heavily-outnumbered and need to be casting other spells like Fireball.

Any reason the extra AC is particularly useful for Enchanters over other traditions?

This does seem like a pretty nice option though. Thanks!


Cantrips in this edition are hideously powerful, pretty cool and at-will. I'd say Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, Shape Water are the most interesting and Guidance & co. are cool as well. One of the selling points of the first 3 are that they all work great with creativity and they actually have combat uses thanks to their cast time and them being able to do nearly anything. Prestidigitation and Thaumaturgy are also cool and can be quite useful.

I had honestly thought of cantrips as damage only options. Hence my commentary on casting Firebolt and EB over and over. I'll take a look at these ones you mentioned. Thanks!


Monks get some at level 6:
Shadow - bonus action teleport from shadow to shadow.
Long death - AOE fear
The feat Drow high magic gives you detect magic at will.

Interesting. We're not going to start at lv 6, but maybe it can work (eventually). Thanks!

Grod_The_Giant
2020-05-09, 10:10 AM
The newest psionics UA features "psychic talent dice" which are sort of at-will. At least statistically; they go up and down in size depending on how you roll, but statistically you can expect a very large number of uses.

Also worth noting that if you're starting at level 6, you're skipping the levels where "I don't have enough spell slots" is the biggest issue. Something like a Dragon Sorcerer (Fire) would be blossoming pretty nicely by this point-- take Firebolt, Create Bondfire, and Green Flame Blade and you've got three solid-but-distinct at-will attacks (a ranged blast, a mini damage-over-time AoE, and an augmented melee attack, all with +Cha to damage to make them more worthwhile), with another two cantrips available for utility options. Ten spell slots is enough to drop one or two spells per encounter even if you don't convert any sorcerery points into slots.

Toadkiller
2020-05-09, 10:43 AM
It is pretty easy to make a character that has a lot of options in 5e if that’s what you are looking to do. For our table it’s generally choosing among them that’s the challenge. Compared to pathfinder it seems easier to have a character that is good enough to contribute at both martial attacks and spell casting.

Spiritchaser
2020-05-09, 10:56 AM
Echo Knight has some good at wills centered around tactical movementswith its manifest echo ability.

I’ll also vote for this. Pair it with sentinel and you have a “ranged” melee attack that can stop opponents dead at very low risk early in the game, and later you still get to chew up at least one attack from multi attack foes basically free. Great mobility and lots of creative uses.

Is it more powerful than a full caster? No it is not.

Is it more destructive than a sorcadin? Of course not.

But it will do things other characters cannot, without using anything that wouldn’t work just fine in an anti magic field.

And all the best stuff is at will.

If you wanted a way to add tier 3 (maybe even 4? Don’t actually know) utility to keep a fighter relevant in the company of god casters, this is a great way to do it.

Creative mechanics like this should have been applied to all fighters.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2020-05-09, 12:00 PM
Damn, if I didn't think dipping Hexblade was cheesy as hell, I'd be all for this build. Sounds really cool to play with.

A 1-level dip is cheesy. Three levels to be able to make a bow or crossbow pact weapon and use Cha with it isn't so much so, especially considering you may as well take four levels for the ability increase, then the 5th level for Eldrtich Smite and Thirsting Blade and higher level spell slots. So it's more of an actual multiclass than just a dip.

jmartkdr
2020-05-09, 01:54 PM
They're technically cantrips, but the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide has booming blade and greenflame blade which let you do cool stuff on some melee attacks by giving up your additional attacks.

I've used them a lot and they go a very long way toward giving you actual tactical choices to make as a melee character.

Ignimortis
2020-05-09, 01:59 PM
Is there any class or subclass/archetype that gives at will abilities other than Cantrips and attacks?

Coming from 3.5 and PF, those are the types of characters I usually play. However, they seem non existant in 5e. Pretty much anything that isn't an attack or a cantrip is locked behind uses per short or long rest.

I'd even take something that gives you uses every time initiative is rolled (there are some abilities like that, but they all seem to be very high level).

UA is fair game, but we try to avoid homebrew.

Thanks!

Edit - Just clarify things a bit: The reason I want at-will abilities (plural) is because I find doing the same thing (usually attacking) every round to be about as fun stepping on lego. With this in mind, I was looking for suggestions on characters with options. Unfortunately, spell casters are very slot starved in the early game, and casting firebolt/EB every round falls in the stepping on lego territory.

As someone who also wanted something like this - you're out of luck. 5e is incredibly heavy on resource-based gameplay, and very few at-wills are allowed to be anywhere cool. I guess Echo Knight was mentioned, and Horizon Walker gets teleports at will too, but it's not something varied, and you don't get a lot of options in the early game anyway. Anyway, you won't find anything on the level of martial adepts or binders or 3.5 warlocks, I'm afraid.

GlenSmash!
2020-05-09, 03:24 PM
Unfortunately, without significant investment, all of these options are straigth up subpar. Grapple is limited by size and doesn't do much. Shoving/Tripping a target is similarly subpar as the enemy can negate your action (if successful) with a few feet of movement.

Not saying these aren't situationally powerful, but that's it. It's not something you want to be doing every combat round.

Unless I'm missing something?

On their own grappling and shoving are indeed limited. Combined is where it shines. When a character is grappled and prone it's in for a very bad time. You can get around the size limits through various means of enlargement. A Duergar Rune Knight can get to size Huge and grapple anything that isn't outright immune to the grappled condition for example.

Still if looking for a lot of at will abilities a Moon Druid has access to quite a few through Wildshape.

Grod_The_Giant
2020-05-09, 04:14 PM
As someone who also wanted something like this - you're out of luck. 5e is incredibly heavy on resource-based gameplay, and very few at-wills are allowed to be anywhere cool. I guess Echo Knight was mentioned, and Horizon Walker gets teleports at will too, but it's not something varied, and you don't get a lot of options in the early game anyway. Anyway, you won't find anything on the level of martial adepts or binders or 3.5 warlocks, I'm afraid.
In some ways, I think that's an artifact of the game's improved balance. Characters in 3.PF hadhuge potential ranges of power, depending on what build options they pick, and how much spellcasting they had. Tome of Battle was able to park itself right in the middle of the power range and keep itself there by being self-contained-- your basic Warblade was a hell of a lot stronger than a basic Fighter, but an optimized Fighter could blow them away, at least in terms of raw damage-dealing. He'd come out ahead of a Wizard with crappy spell choices, but behind one who picked strong options.

5e just doesn't have that kind of design space. A Fighter stacks up fairly well against a Wizard-- and probably comes out ahead in terms of damage and toughness. The basic "I hit it with my sword" at-will is already highly competitive; trying to add anything on top of that starts getting iffy. Just look at the old debates about the melee cantrips being overpowered. I had a hell of a time trying to build ToB classes in 5e, and I wasn't even trying to keep them entirely at-will.

heavyfuel
2020-05-09, 10:09 PM
General question: Would a "Master of Cantrips" work? A Bard/Warlock/Sorcerer/Paladin with Blessed Warrior. Getting like a dozen cantrips to use at will?

Just crazy? Or crazy enough to work?


A 1-level dip is cheesy. Three levels to be able to make a bow or crossbow pact weapon and use Cha with it isn't so much so, especially considering you may as well take four levels for the ability increase, then the 5th level for Eldrtich Smite and Thirsting Blade and higher level spell slots. So it's more of an actual multiclass than just a dip.

That does make sense. Thanks!


They're technically cantrips, but the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide has booming blade and greenflame blade which let you do cool stuff on some melee attacks by giving up your additional attacks.

I've used them a lot and they go a very long way toward giving you actual tactical choices to make as a melee character.

A player currently has these and I find them pretty subpar tbh. Trade one of your attacks (past lv 5) for like 1d8 flame damage that has to be spread out? Not saying they are terrible, but I don't feel like they're "meh"


As someone who also wanted something like this - you're out of luck. 5e is incredibly heavy on resource-based gameplay, and very few at-wills are allowed to be anywhere cool. I guess Echo Knight was mentioned, and Horizon Walker gets teleports at will too, but it's not something varied, and you don't get a lot of options in the early game anyway. Anyway, you won't find anything on the level of martial adepts or binders or 3.5 warlocks, I'm afraid.

Sigh... That does seem to be the case. So many cool abilities, so few uses per rest...


On their own grappling and shoving are indeed limited. Combined is where it shines. When a character is grappled and prone it's in for a very bad time. You can get around the size limits through various means of enlargement. A Duergar Rune Knight can get to size Huge and grapple anything that isn't outright immune to the grappled condition for example.

Still if looking for a lot of at will abilities a Moon Druid has access to quite a few through Wildshape.

That is a very nice combo! Really hadn't thought about their interaction hand in hand. Thanks for clarification!

Ignimortis
2020-05-09, 10:59 PM
In some ways, I think that's an artifact of the game's improved balance. Characters in 3.PF hadhuge potential ranges of power, depending on what build options they pick, and how much spellcasting they had. Tome of Battle was able to park itself right in the middle of the power range and keep itself there by being self-contained-- your basic Warblade was a hell of a lot stronger than a basic Fighter, but an optimized Fighter could blow them away, at least in terms of raw damage-dealing. He'd come out ahead of a Wizard with crappy spell choices, but behind one who picked strong options.

5e just doesn't have that kind of design space. A Fighter stacks up fairly well against a Wizard-- and probably comes out ahead in terms of damage and toughness. The basic "I hit it with my sword" at-will is already highly competitive; trying to add anything on top of that starts getting iffy. Just look at the old debates about the melee cantrips being overpowered. I had a hell of a time trying to build ToB classes in 5e, and I wasn't even trying to keep them entirely at-will.

That is very much true - the "I hit it with my sword as much as a I can" Fighter seems to be the 5e baseline that every other class has to be designed around as to not be much more powerful than that.

However, I feel that it immensely constrains what characters can really do. The best answer I could find for this was Monk, who had a lot of resources later on and could do at least something cool (run along walls/water, jump high, move fast and stun enemies), even if half of this really came on-line at about level 9, but it still wasn't anywhere as badass as my old Warblades at the same levels.

Waazraath
2020-05-10, 02:40 AM
Maybe I've missed it, but how about the defense fighting style? Give disadvantage at will (costs a reaction though) to an attack against an adjecent enemy?

a bit off topic:
To be honest, between that ability (emulating several Book of 9 Swords maneuvers), action surge (emulating several maneuvers) and the Battle Master subclass (though not relevant for the OP's question), I think it's pretty easy to make a build to resemble 3.5's martial adepts (don't forget: they needed maneuvers also to reroll saves, or to move and still make a full attack - something that's also baked in the fighter chasis and 5e edition design respectively).

As for the SCAG-cantrips: I think they work really well. Even without specializing, they are straight up damage upgrade for single attack classes (rogues, clerics), and something like greenflame blade can do more damage then 2 attacks, when 2 enemies are adjecent. And when optimizing (booming blade with a party member with for example repelling blast or open hand monk; or greenflame blade with a bonus to fire spells), they can get very good quickly. And as for the OP's request: they are extra at will (if situational) abilities).

FaerieGodfather
2020-05-10, 03:39 AM
I know cantrips aren't really what you want, but I want to point out that Warlock 3/Bard X at least gives you a meaningful choice-- a flexible high-damage cantrip in Agonizing eldritch blast, and a lower-damage debuff cantrip in vicious mockery. You can continue as a Bard to get more options from Bard subclasses, go back to Warlock and then dip back to Bard later for... the Lore Bard feature that cherry-picks spells, or treat Bard/Warlock as the perfect four-level dip before progressing in a different class, entirely-- since they're both Charisma classes, it's effectively the same as only dipping a single class.

HiveStriker
2020-05-10, 05:01 AM
Is there any class or subclass/archetype that gives at will abilities other than Cantrips and attacks?

Coming from 3.5 and PF, those are the types of characters I usually play. However, they seem non existant in 5e. Pretty much anything that isn't an attack or a cantrip is locked behind uses per short or long rest.

I'd even take something that gives you uses every time initiative is rolled (there are some abilities like that, but they all seem to be very high level).

UA is fair game, but we try to avoid homebrew.

Thanks!

Edit - Just clarify things a bit: The reason I want at-will abilities (plural) is because I find doing the same thing (usually attacking) every round to be about as fun stepping on lego. With this in mind, I was looking for suggestions on characters with options. Unfortunately, spell casters are very slot starved in the early game, and casting firebolt/EB every round falls in the stepping on lego territory.

Would a "Master of Cantrips" work? A Bard/Warlock/Sorcerer/Paladin with Blessed Warrior. Getting like a dozen cantrips to use at will?
Warlock is the class you want to look at: the free 1st, 2nd and 3rd level spells are great.
And if you go Tome and have a nice DM, you could hoard rituals that are for most of them "at-will" since they only require time.

The other great class is Thief Rogue: using an item as a bonus action opens all kind of good tricks.

And Moon Druid: expanded beast list and "hours per level" duration, short-rest recharging ability effectively makes it an at-will ability except when/if you blow both uses in combat and get thrown out of shape.

Besides that, there are some at-will abilities scattered throughout all classes (like Bard's Expertise, althugh maybe not an ability per se in your eyes, or some Cleric's Domains like Nature's reaction, or the Protection Fighting Style, etc).

And some feats that push skills or martial actions to a level of efficiency opening up new use-cases and tactical variety with some creativity (like Actor, Keen Mind, Observant).

Besides that it's essentially about using items and using any action anyone can do in a creative way, and/or asking DM to implement additional actions from the optional rules (Disarm, Taunt, etc).



Would a "Master of Cantrips" work? A Bard/Warlock/Sorcerer/Paladin with Blessed Warrior. Getting like a dozen cantrips to use at will?
Master of Cantrips definitely work. If you want a character with lots of options,
go Tome Warlock 3 (any Patron work, although GOO or Fey are nice, and Hexblade would mix well with "martial" Bard College), add one starting level of Sorcerer for Constitution proficiency, then 3 levels of Bard (any College, depending on later goal).

That character is easy to build and works great: you get a large array of spells for in and out of combat, a dozen cantrips as well, a good array of skills, Expertise and Jack of all Trades. Just pick Repelling Blast and the Invocation to learn rituals.

You'll have only 1st and 2nd level spells, but it's not that big of a deal because those are still real useful at any level.
Your next goal will be to push Warlock (3rd level slots and rituals) and Bard (short-rest Inspiration) to 5 in whichever order, unless you want to push on the "gish" aspect in which case Swords or Valor Bard 6 is probably your best choice.
Or you want to play with metamagics early in which case Sorcerer 4-5 would be fine.

In fact, most random combination of casters would probably still end in a solid, "own-weight-lifting" character.
Someone using 1st and 2nd level spells wisely will always be more useful than someone throwing high-level ones randomly. :)

JellyPooga
2020-05-10, 05:13 AM
It's easy to look at 5ed and think that all the "cool" stuff is resource gated and that most at-will abilities, even cantrips, are "sub-par".

On paper, this is largely true.

In play, however, I've found quite the opposite. Sure, busting out the "big guns" can be entertaining. It can also be immensely disappointing when it fails. The at-will or high-frequency abilities often require a little creativity to get the most out of them and sure, the ceiling isn't as high for what they're capable of, but when you're able to do more stuff of wider variety on your turn, largely speaking, you're having more fun.

This is why the Rogue is the funnest class (fight me :smallcool:) and why Thief is the funnest subclass (I dare you :smallamused:).

- Cunning Action, alone, is great. Arguably one of the single best Class Features (outside of far-reaching/all-encompassing features like Spellcasting) in the game. It literally lets you do more. It's all well and good being a Barbarian able to crush your enemies with a single blow, but if you're pinned in place by some mook or too slow to actually reach your enemies...well, all that damage potential is going to waste. Cunning Action gives you the mobility and the speed to contribute, even if it's only in a small way. NB - Cunning Action allowing you to hide is a nice little bonus compared to its other two basic functions. Dash and Disengage are immensely powerful. Hide is just nice.

Enter the Thief...
- Fast Hands. is. awesome. It's not just ball bearings and caltrops. Topple furniture, cut ropes, shove rocks...manipulating the terrain is sub-par when it's the only thing you do on your turn. When it's an additional thing you can do on your turn? All of a sudden the battlefield itself is your weapon. Channel your inner-Errol Flynn and buckle your swash, swinging from the rope as you pull the tapestry over a horde of guards. Or Multiclass some Barbarian for Advantage on Str checks, take inspiration from the mighty Conan himself and topple that stone cauldron of man-stew into the orgy as a bonus action before getting your groove on with some Sneak Attacks against the now prone and scalded guards.

Is it situational? Sure. That's why it doesn't look too good on paper. When it comes to table-time though, you'll be the one most engaged by the GMs lavish descriptions of the scenario, because you're looking out for those elements that you'll be able to take advantage of. You'll feel compelled to ask questions too; "is there a shovel by the coal hopper for that forge?" (scattered red-hot coals from the forge sound like a good deterrent), "where's the rope to lower the chandelier?", so on and so forth. This, in turn, will get you engaged in the scene more and enhance both your immersion and enjoyment, as well as being a remarkably powerful tool.

GMs love a little creativity from their players, as a rule. Especially if it's as a result of actually listening to what they're saying or engaging with the scene that they've constructed. This let's the cunning Rogue player get away with a lot more than they might otherwise. Can other Classes do the same? Sure, but they sacrifice doing other things to do it. Thief Rogue gets to take their cake and is allowed to eat it too (as a bonus action :smallwink:).

HiveStriker
2020-05-10, 05:40 AM
It's easy to look at 5ed and think that all the "cool" stuff is resource gated and that most at-will abilities, even cantrips, are "sub-par".

On paper, this is largely true.

In play, however, I've found quite the opposite. Sure, busting out the "big guns" can be entertaining. It can also be immensely disappointing when it fails. The at-will or high-frequency abilities often require a little creativity to get the most out of them and sure, the ceiling isn't as high for what they're capable of, but when you're able to do more stuff of wider variety on your turn, largely speaking, you're having more fun.

I'll personally disagree on Rogue being the funniest because I lose myself in an ocean of fun with Wild Shape (I have to admit it's kinda "cheating": much easier to set up tricks and cool tactics when you don't have to worry much on being noticed and identified as a troublemaker XD) but I do agree Rogue, especially Thief, can be very very fun to play. I'm pretty sure Jelly could tell us dozen more fun and awesome things about Thief abilities than me though, no doubt about that. :smallbiggrin:

I'll have to +1000 the bolded part though. ESPECIALLY with cantrips.
While as a DM I usually have not too much trouble deciding whether a player idea based on "mundane interaction" is credible/doable or not...

Some cantrips are a much thinner line to walk on in my experience/feeling to keep the balance between "hey this is a cool and smart idea" and "my god it's trivializing a situation like a slotted spell".
Notably because many cantrips are used to set up deception, and whether deception works or not depend on many more things than just "can I knot that drape into a rope and use it to climb down" which essentially amounts to "is this physically credible enough for D&D" (not realistic, mind you, that's a can of worms I don't want on my table).

Among the worst(or best ^^) offenders:

Thaumaturgy:
- misdirected sounds and door opening/shutting is great to create distractions or mislead chasers.
- flame coloring can be used to set some colour-coded messaging between parties, or serve as a visuel coordinator for allies dispatched all around a camp.
- eye changing is a small but existing improvement for some tricks.

Druidcraft offers some similar effects, but I can't get as creative with it (and my players rarely pick Druid too much spellcasting for them ^^). I'm pretty sure being able to manipulate odors can enable many great tricks though...

Prestidigitation too has a great potential to create headaches, on top of being useful on a regular basis for daily actions (like the cleaning / camp set up). ^^

Mage Hand: the fact it's not invisible unless you're an Arcane Trickster (nearly enough reason by itself to play one XD) or a caster with Invisibility kinda limits its basic use. Still there are so many things you can do with, especially if your DM will allow some creative uses (like a Sleigh of Hand even if you're not a Trickster, albeit with disadvantage).

Minor Illusion: so great, but while sound illusions are usually easy enough for me to rule, images are often brewing minute-long discussion: first everyone must agree on what exactly represents the illusion, and if it's actually fitting within the spell descrption or "expected power". Then the DM has to decide whether that illusion works in provoking the intended reaction, or maybe another, and design it in a way that feels coherent within the world (ex: a beast would not react the same as a human. A proud or dedicated human may not surrender when you create the illusion of an iron-clad warrior a few dozen feets behind him, while an half-motivated guy-for-hire may).

Sorry to give a hardly working example. Beyond "makeshift covers" and otherwise simply changing the apparence of something existing in environment, illusions are really not my forte. ^^

Eldariel
2020-05-10, 10:32 AM
With a bit of physics you can also do all sorts of cool stuff with Minor Illusion (or Prestidigitation for that matter). Resonance is a very useful feature: you can shatter e.g. glass pretty much at will with appropriate voice frequency and amplitude (100dB amplitude suffices, which should be readily available with the spell). You can also obviously do serious harm to anyone's hearing with it: you can maintain "a scream" for one full minute.

Just quick numbers: loudest verified scream is ~130dB IIRC and that's more than enough to shatter someone's hearing in under 30 seconds also causing a serious sensation of pain, especially if subjected to at a point blank range - Maria Sharapova clocked in at 101 dB on average without actually trying to be especially loud and this was a cause for concern for the tennis audiences. 115 decibels has recommended exposure of under 30 seconds. While it can't do any game-mechanical damage, the spell can certainly cause pain enough to provide a distraction or some such. It can, of course, also conceal nearly any other voice.