Indecisive Monk - which tradition to choose?

[JonBeowulf]

I've been playing D&D since the early 80's so I find it odd and slightly embarrassing that I'm asking for help.

I recently started with a group of completely new players and an experienced DM. My role with this group is to help them get a feel for the game, to passively assist with the rules (lead by example), and let them shine (hang in the background). I went with a low-cha VHuman monk to keep my char's role essentially undefined: I'm good in a fight, my skills cover areas they missed, and nobody expects me to say anything (avoid taking over).

The party is:
STR Rogue (dragonborn)
GW Fighter (human)
Light Cleric (lizardman)
Sorcerer (fire genasi)
Druid (half-orc) - hasn't played a session so I've got no idea what his concept is

We just hit 3rd level and I'm completely stuck on which tradition to choose. I want to avoid stealing anyone's thunder.

- 4 Elements is out because it's 4 Elements
- Drunken Master is out because it doesn't fit the concept at all
- Kensai is out because I'd dominate combat without even trying (or not use the features)
- Sun Soul is out because, even though I can make it fit the concept (with some effort), I'd outshine both the cleric and sorcerer (or not use the features)

That leaves me with Open Hand or Shadow (only using PHB and XGtE). Both fit the concept and line up with how I've been playing the character. The other players haven't decided on their subclasses, but I suspect the rogue will go Thief, Scout, or Swashbuckler. The fighter will likely go Battlemaster or Samurai.

Maybe 4 Elements is the way to go so I could use the features and still suck. :smallamused:

I could use some outside opinions... and hopefully there's a clear majority.

[Lunali]

Not sure what you mean by kensei dominating combat, the main things it adds are a shield bonus (effectively) and somewhat effective ranged attacks.

I'd recommend shadow if your party ever wants to be stealthy as a group and open hand if you'd rather dominate combat.

[Friv]

My thought would be to go Shadow Monk, because right now the fighter has a lot of support and the rogue doesn't.

You've got a fighter taking point, and Light Clerics and half-orc druids are both solid backup frontliners to give support. A fire sorcerer sounds like they're aiming artillery.

As a shadow monk, you can provide support for the rogue - move silently with them, give them cover, teleport to bad guys and provide flanking, etc. You're not going to move too far into their specialties, but you're going to be great at battlefield support and stealth.

[The Deej]

I see people suggesting Shadow for support reasons, but I'm actually going to say Open Hand for support reasons. 'Knocked Prone' and 'can't take reactions' can be very good conditions to inflict on enemies, making combat a bit more forgiving for your allies. And because it's tied to Flurry of Blows, it's possible to get two targets per turn with them. No reactions means no opportunity attacks, so that's an opening for someone to escape if they're in over their head. And Prone is advantage for melee attacks against a target. You set them up, next guy takes them down.

[JonBeowulf]

Not sure what you mean by kensei dominating combat, the main things it adds are a shield bonus (effectively) and somewhat effective ranged attacks.

I was thinking more about the expanded weapon list and the level 6 abilities. I've seen one played very well, but perhaps is not as dominating as I thought.

edit: @The Deej, you listed why I love Open Hand so much... but that's also why I'm a bit wary of it with this group.

Good points on the backup frontliners. Shadow is winning at the moment.

[Falconcry]

If you are willing to expand out to UA Way of Mercy might work well. If your support healers drop the ball you can kick a heal into a front liner and being able to poison foes will give them disadvantage on attacks. Later as the party picks it up you won't be overpowered as lots of later creatures make good Con saves.

Way of Mercy also give you proficiency in Alchemist's Tools, Herbalism Kit, and Poisoner's Kit. You can quietly be the party pusher and get players into the habit of having their own health recovery in mind.

[Democratus]

What makes the most sense in your game world?

Are there monasteries nearby for any of these schools? Is there a master of the arts that you know?

Does one of the paths most match the culture you are from?

Everyone is good enough at combat for 5e. The real choices are in how your character fits in the world and fills out its role in the story of your adventures.

[elyktsorb]

Long Death or Sun Soul i'd think

[Lunali]

I was thinking more about the expanded weapon list and the level 6 abilities. I've seen one played very well, but perhaps is not as dominating as I thought.

The expanded weapon selection gives you roughly +2 damage per round most of the time. The only ability at level 6 that I can think you'd mean is deft strike, which is among the worst ways to spend ki except on the occasion where you've crit while using the weapon. Given that you will typically use your weapon for one attack per round, (two if someone provokes an AoO) it isn't particularly dominating.

Kensei to me feels like the monk version of champion fighter. It makes you better, but doesn't drastically change anything.

[JonBeowulf]

Sooooo...

Open Hand can make the STR rogue a SA machine but could clash with Battlemaster.
Shadow will be quite useful if rogue player goes with Swashbuckler.
Kensai pretty much just makes me better at what I've been doing, so no clash concerns.

Y'all have got me looking at this in new ways and I think I got my head around it. I can make my decision based on what the rogue and fighter players do.

Thanks all.

[Lockwolfe]

I would choose Shadow. The spells you get gives you more utility than the other options. Knocking enemies prone is nice, but you’ll have access to Stunning Strike soon anyway. Having access to Darkvision will be very useful to your allies who don’t have it, Pass Without Trace guarantees your party can move stealthily, and Silence is nice to have when taking down enemy casters or for more niche purposes. None of these make you the star of the show, but they give you great support options for the rest of your group that other monk subclasses don’t have.

[Specter]

STR Rogue and GWM Fighter will love if you trip people with Open Hand Technique. Just sayin'.

[sithlordnergal]

I would say go Open Hand over Shadow Monk for two reasons. First, the Shadow Monk relies a lot, and I mean a LOT, on dim light and darkness, making it more situational.

Second, the Open Hand gives you a lot of ways to manipulate the battlefield in ways where you can cause big changes without being overt. The support you provide isn't flashy by any means, but its extremely helpful. You can push, knock prone, or deny enemies their reaction. Mix Stunning Strike on top of that, and you're an excellent support for all of your allies, but you won't outshine them in obvious ways.

[Kobold_paladin?]

Open hand unless the entire adventure is in a cave. Shadow is about powerless without darkness. Open hand is the only affective option in my opinion.

[ImproperJustice]

Shadow for the outside combat utility, and support.
Minor Illusion at will, silence and pass without trace are amazing team infiltration tools.

And it works fine outdoors.

Trees and building make shadows, even tall creatures.


But, might I suggest you browse through the recent 4 elements Monk thread. It’s not as poor a choice as everyone thinks if you like varying your play style.

[Smoothjedi]

I was thinking more about the expanded weapon list and the level 6 abilities

A couple problems turned me off on trying out Kensai. First off was the expanded weapon advancement. At third level I feel like I'd pick my most optimal weapons, but then every expansion thereafter would have diminished value compared my initial choices.
Next if you ever find a nice magic weapon, your level 11 ability won't even work with it, which is probable by that level, and it nullifies your earlier on making weapons count as magical.
Other features are nice, but a good slice of them feel disappointing.

[Spo]

My vote is for open hand to provide better support/combat control for the team. It will set up enemies better for the other players to shine (which seems to be yur overall intent).

Shadow is fun but can be a scene stealer and may step on the rogue's toes.

[Man_Over_Game]

I was thinking more about the expanded weapon list and the level 6 abilities. I've seen one played very well, but perhaps is not as dominating as I thought.

edit: @The Deej, you listed why I love Open Hand so much... but that's also why I'm a bit wary of it with this group.

Good points on the backup frontliners. Shadow is winning at the moment.


Sooooo...

Open Hand can make the STR rogue a SA machine but could clash with Battlemaster.
Shadow will be quite useful if rogue player goes with Swashbuckler.
Kensai pretty much just makes me better at what I've been doing, so no clash concerns.

Y'all have got me looking at this in new ways and I think I got my head around it. I can make my decision based on what the rogue and fighter players do.

Thanks all.

The Kensei's value is kinda complex, but it effectively allows a monk to have no weaknesses. Monks are naturally excellent against backliners - that is, casters and archers. They are designed around disengaging past the front line to put pressure on your enemies' back line while causing confusion with their front. Problem is, they aren't that great against bruisers in the enemies' defensive line, as those same bruisers are the ones that would shrug off the Monk's damage and Stunning Strike. You know what works against bruisers?

Ranged attacks.

Now that you have mastery over ranged weapons, and you have 35+ speed, there's not too many reasons you should ever be caught in melee combat unless you want to be there. You could kinda do that before, but you lacked the effectiveness you'd need to make that a consistent strategy.

Kensei really only gets its value if you can use your mobility. If you're constantly in dungeons or castles or caves, you might as well just be an Open Hand monk.

[JonBeowulf]

K, here's the plan:

- if she doesn't go Battlemaster then I go Open Hand (I do the combat maneuver stuff)
- if she goes Battlemaster and he goes Swashbuckler then I go Shadow (I do the sneakier stuff)
- if she goes Battlemaster and he doesn't go Swashbuckler then I go Kensei (I get better ranged attacks)

I probably won't know what I'm doing until about an hour before the game... but there it is.

[KorvinStarmast]

K, here's the plan:

- if she doesn't go Battlemaster then I go Open Hand (I do the combat maneuver stuff)
- if she goes Battlemaster and he goes Swashbuckler then I go Shadow (I do the sneakier stuff)
- if she goes Battlemaster and he doesn't go Swashbuckler then I go Kensei (I get better ranged attacks)

I probably won't know what I'm doing until about an hour before the game... but there it is.

I like your plan, and your contingencies. Hope this works out.