A Better Name for DUELING?

[DrFunkenstein]

Google "dueling 5e," and the problem becomes obvious: when people hear the name Dueling, they think of a fencer with a rapier and an empty off-hand. "Can I use Dueling with a shield?" and "Can I use Dueling when throwing a weapon?" would not be such recurrent confusions if we gave it a better name (nb: the answer to both is "yes," confirmed by Crawford).

I can empathize with the game designers, though, because I can't come up with a better name myself.

To fit the writing style, the name needs to be a noun, and needs to reasonably fit into the phrase, "X (Fighting) Style." Archery is a good example: it's a noun, and "Archery Fighting Style" is coherent. As for "Great Weapon Fighting Fighting Style" or "Two Weapon Fighting Fighting Style," well, ok, we can drop the redundant "Fighting" verbiage and we're good to go.

Hive mind, what say you?

[Misterwhisper]

Google "dueling 5e," and the problem becomes obvious: when people hear the name Dueling, they think of a fencer with a rapier and an empty off-hand. "Can I use Dueling with a shield?" and "Can I use Dueling when throwing a weapon?" would not be such recurrent confusions if we gave it a better name (nb: the answer to both is "yes," confirmed by Crawford).

I can empathize with the game designers, though, because I can't come up with a better name myself.

To fit the writing style, the name needs to be a noun, and needs to reasonably fit into the phrase, "X (Fighting) Style." Archery is a good example: it's a noun, and "Archery Fighting Style" is coherent. As for "Great Weapon Fighting Fighting Style" or "Two Weapon Fighting Fighting Style," well, ok, we can drop the redundant "Fighting" verbiage and we're good to go.

Hive mind, what say you?

One handed style is simple and to the point.

Singleton style maybe.

[elyktsorb]

Single Weapon Fighting/Style

[Nifft]

Google "dueling 5e," and the problem becomes obvious: when people hear the name Dueling, they think of a fencer with a rapier and an empty off-hand. No we don't.

It's pistols at 10 paces, at dawn.

Or it's a children's card game ... on motorcycles.


To fit the writing style, the name needs to be a noun, and needs to reasonably fit into the phrase, "X (Fighting) Style." Archery is a good example: it's a noun, and "Archery Fighting Style" is coherent. As for "Great Weapon Fighting Fighting Style" or "Two Weapon Fighting Fighting Style," well, ok, we can drop the redundant "Fighting" verbiage and we're good to go.

Hive mind, what say you?

Hand Weapon Fighting Style

Sidearm Fighting Style

Adaptive Fighting Style

[Tanarii]

Sword and Shield Fighting Style.

[DrFunkenstein]

Single Weapon Fighting/Style

I considered it, but a greatsword is a single weapon...


One handed style is simple and to the point.

I considered it, but if you're using your other hand for a shield, is it really one-handed? I'm concerned this leads to the same confusion.

[elyktsorb]

I considered it, but a greatsword is a single weapon...

One Handed Weapon Style

[Lavaeolus]

Sword and Shield Fighting Style.

Swings in the opposite direction, methinks: although most with a one-handed weapon and a Fighting Style will run it as sword-and-board, it's still usable if you're running sword + free hand. A grappler or certain multiclassing spellcasters, as examples. And of course, it's not strictly limited to swords.

[DrFunkenstein]

One Handed Weapon Style

This might work. It's better than One Handed Fighting, since you are making it clear only the weapon is one-handed, not the fighting style in toto.

[Kane0]

Einhander fighting style.

[DrFunkenstein]

Sword and Shield Fighting Style.

Definitely not. The style works even if you aren't using a sword OR shield, so this is pretty confusing.

[elyktsorb]

This might work. It's better than One Handed Fighting, since you are making it clear only the weapon is one-handed, not the fighting style in toto.

It also makes it clear that it should work with weapons that can be used with 2 hands, but only in the 1 handed mode.

[stoutstien]

Definitely not. The style works even if you aren't using a sword OR shield, so this is pretty confusing.

Not really. Dueling with a weapon and having an empty hand doesn't make sense and also was very rare historically. Even a empty tankard is better than nothing as a way of preventing getting stabbed.

[DrFunkenstein]

It also makes it clear that it should work with weapons that can be used with 2 hands, but only in the 1 handed mode.

True.

Here's the one catch: when you are fighting with two weapons, you are fighting with two one-handed weapons, which could introduce some ambiguity. So far, yours is the best suggestion, though I'm still open to a name that is even more clearly focused on using a single one-handed weapon.

[elyktsorb]

True.

Here's the one catch: when you are fighting with two weapons, you are fighting with two one-handed weapons, which could introduce some ambiguity. So far, yours is the best suggestion, though I'm still open to a name that is even more clearly focused on using a single one-handed weapon.

to be fair the fact that one style is called 'two weapon fighting' should prevent the confusion. One handed fighting is for fighting with one, one handed weapon. Two weapon fighting is for fighting with, two weapons, that can't require 2 hands per weapon because there are no playable races with four arms.

[Lavaeolus]

Not really. Dueling with a weapon and having an empty hand doesn't make sense and also was very rare historically. Even a empty tankard is better than nothing as a way of preventing getting stabbed.

I think we can sidestep the historical subject here: regardless of viability in real-life, D&D 5e deliberately supports one-handed–weapon + no-shield as a build choice -- and indeed, the Dueling FS is part of that support. (I think there's a reason there's a separate FS taking advantage of shields, albeit it's not the most optimal pick out there.) Having a free hand, while often a pretty good trade for +2 AC, can have a lot of mechanical impact (e.g. item/environment use, grappling, spellcasting).

So it'd be inappropriate to give it a name that suggests it relies on shield-use, or is otherwise just intended for players who use them.

[DrFunkenstein]

to be fair the fact that one style is called 'two weapon fighting' should prevent the confusion. One handed fighting is for fighting with one, one handed weapon. Two weapon fighting is for fighting with, two weapons, that can't require 2 hands per weapon because there are no playable races with four arms.

Also true. It would be nice to have a name that stands alone without needing other style names to clarify, but as of yet, neither I nor anyone else seems able to think of one.

Oh, here it is: One2 Handed Weapon Fighting Style! (joking)

[stoutstien]

I think we can sidestep the historical subject here: regardless of viability in real-life, D&D 5e deliberately supports one-handed–weapon + no-shield as a build choice -- and indeed, the Dueling FS is part of that support. (I think there's a reason there's a separate FS taking advantage of shields, albeit it's not the most optimal pick out there.) Having a free hand, while often a pretty good trade for +2 AC, can have a lot of mechanical impact (e.g. item/environment use, grappling, spellcasting).

So it'd be inappropriate to give it a name that suggests it relies on shield-use, or is otherwise just intended for players who use them.

Aye it's a very popular fantasy just pointing out duelist not requiring an open hand makes it more open for other forms of duelist than just the one.

Duelist is the general offense focused FS where defense is the general mitigation FS. Protection is pretty bad and why they decided that it needed a shield is beyond me.

[LudicSavant]

Or it's a children's card game ... on motorcycles.

The correct definition of dueling.

[Segev]

How about going for German?

“Einhander”

[Misterwhisper]

The correct definition of dueling.

Must be a joke there I don’t get.

Not a new concept, I miss a lot of jokes.

[WaroftheCrans]

How about going for German?

“Einhander”

Kane0 beat you to the punch.

I'd say dueling is actually the best name. Just because people have this odd notion of duels being with rapiers because of the three musketeers does not mean it's less accurate. I can see any number of dumb questions popping up with the other names as well.

[Boci]

Kane0 beat you to the punch.

I'd say dueling is actually the best name. Just because people have this odd notion of duels being with rapiers because of the three musketeers does not mean it's less accurate. I can see any number of dumb questions popping up with the other names as well.

I'm not sure its an "odd notion" of dueling. My paper back dictionary defines a duel as "a combat between two persons, pre-arranged and fought under fixed conditions, generally on an affair of honour" and google has something similar "a contest with deadly weapons arranged between two people in order to settle a point of honour."

Granted neither of those mention rapiers and an empty offhand explicitly, but it certainly conjures that image with the emphasis on honourable combat between two people. (Which apparantly can be persons? I never knew that)

[Kane0]

Kane0 beat you to the punch.

I'd say dueling is actually the best name. Just because people have this odd notion of duels being with rapiers because of the three musketeers does not mean it's less accurate. I can see any number of dumb questions popping up with the other names as well.

Those kinds of connotations are their own burden though, which is what is being discussed.

[Tanarii]

Swings in the opposite direction, methinks: although most with a one-handed weapon and a Fighting Style will run it as sword-and-board, it's still usable if you're running sword + free hand. A grappler or certain multiclassing spellcasters, as examples. And of course, it's not strictly limited to swords.


Definitely not. The style works even if you aren't using a sword OR shield, so this is pretty confusing.

"Sword and Shield Style" may not be technically accurate, but it exactly describes how it is used in 99% of all cases. So it'll be far from confusion. As opposed to now, where the 1% that use it with an empty other hand pick it, and many S&S players don't realize it is (apparently) fully intended to work for them.

In addition, it makes clear that there's no reason for it to be written/intended this way. There already is a style for Shields, and Dueling is encroaching. No other style does that.

[DrFunkenstein]

OK folks, I've got my own personal favorite -

Figthing Style: Classic. 'Nuff said.


"Sword and Shield Style" may not be technically accurate, but it exactly describes how it is used in 99% of all cases. So it'll be far from confusion. As opposed to now, where the 1% that use it with an empty other hand pick it, and many S&S players don't realize it is (apparently) fully intended to work for them.

In addition, it makes clear that there's no reason for it to be written/intended this way. There already is a style for Shields, and Dueling is encroaching. No other style does that.

Maybe for you, but not at for all. Axes? Warhammers? Thrown weapons?


I think we can sidestep the historical subject here: regardless of viability in real-life, D&D 5e deliberately supports one-handed–weapon + no-shield as a build choice -- and indeed, the Dueling FS is part of that support. (I think there's a reason there's a separate FS taking advantage of shields, albeit it's not the most optimal pick out there.) Having a free hand, while often a pretty good trade for +2 AC, can have a lot of mechanical impact (e.g. item/environment use, grappling, spellcasting).

So it'd be inappropriate to give it a name that suggests it relies on shield-use, or is otherwise just intended for players who use them.

Agreed.


Kane0 beat you to the punch.

I'd say dueling is actually the best name. Just because people have this odd notion of duels being with rapiers because of the three musketeers does not mean it's less accurate. I can see any number of dumb questions popping up with the other names as well.

Mostly agreed, though I’ve come up with one that I like better: Classic Fighting Style ;)


Those kinds of connotations are their own burden though, which is what is being discussed.

Agreed.


No we don't.

It's pistols at 10 paces, at dawn.

Or it's a children's card game ... on motorcycles.



Lolz.

[Dienekes]

How about Swashbuckler Style?

It still conjures the idea of a one-handed weapon user. And since it actual has buckler in the name it implies the use of a shield.

Though I kinda think the easiest solution is just putting this line in the text: *shields are not considered weapons.

[Tanarii]

Maybe for you, but not at for all. Axes? Warhammers? Thrown weapons?
Oh I see. Sorry I'm so used to gamer-speak. You are correct, technically I should have said:
One-Handed & Shield Style

My point was the way it's written and named is as if it's supposed to be focusing on a weapon in one hand and empty other hand. But the actuality is once you carefully parse the language of the rule and read the SAC, turns out in use by those "in the know" it is almost completely used as a shield fighting style. And supposedly, despite it not being immediately clear from the name or the wording of the rule, this is intentional.

Edit: Obviously from your OP you get this point I just finished 'splaining. /sigh and :smallredface:
Point is it's the "& Shield" part of my suggested rename that matters.

[LudicSavant]

Must be a joke there I don’t get.

Not a new concept, I miss a lot of jokes.

It's a reference to Yu-Gi-Oh: The Abridged Series.

[DrFunkenstein]

How about Swashbuckler Style?

It still conjures the idea of a one-handed weapon user. And since it actual has buckler in the name it implies the use of a shield.

Though I kinda think the easiest solution is just putting this line in the text: *shields are not considered weapons.

OOOooo...

Swashbuckling, ironically, conveys BOTH of the desired connotations of Dueling:

When I hear "Swashbuckling," I first think of pirates or Alexandre Dumas-types wielding a sabre, cutlass or rapier in one hand and nothing in the other. That is in keeping with the "Dueling" connotation that so many people have as commented upon previously.

AND YET!

As you point out, swashbuckling as originally constructed as a word DENOTES using a shield!

It's literally both! We may have a winner here, folks, for my table at least.

Alas, D&D has already created a "Swashbuckler," so WotC is unlikely to pick it up.

Second Place goes to Classic, and Third Place goes to One Handed Weapon Fighting.

Also, I completely agree that if you want to make it more clear, explicitly stating shields are cool in the description is a good way to do it.

[Kane0]

Third Place goes to One Handed Weapon Fighting.

Isn’t that literally Einhander, but in more words?

[Christew]

But what about the inherent confusion from the Swashbuckler subclass that can effectively solo weapon, weapon and shield, or dual wield?

This semantic Venn Diagram begs a definition that includes single weapon and/or single weapon and shield while excluding dual wielding.

Also if we disqualify "one handed" we kind of have to disqualify "einhander."

[MeeposFire]

Isn’t that literally Einhander, but in more words?

Perhaps but if you have never seen the word einhander before is it really helping the issue?

[MaxWilson]

Alas, D&D has already created a "Swashbuckler," so WotC is unlikely to pick it up.

That didn't stop them from creating both a Gloomstalker Ranger subclass and a Gloomstalker monster. But they're not going to pick it up anyway, because that would break PHB backwards-compatibility.

[Morty]

Where it gets tricky is that since it works with shields, there's no real point in actually using a weapon with one hand free. The benefits to doing it are pretty situational outside of spellcasting and can be accomplished by just putting the shield away for a moment.

[Lavaeolus]

Where it gets tricky is that since it works with shields, there's no real point in actually using a weapon with one hand free. The benefits to doing it are pretty situational outside of spellcasting and can be accomplished by just putting the shield away for a moment.

Be aware: in the Getting Into and Out of Armor section of the PHB, it's specified that donning or doffing a shield takes an action. You cannot do it is as your free object interaction, if you are a spellcaster putting it away to cast.

[Morty]

Be aware: in the Getting Into and Out of Armor section of the PHB, it's specified that donning or doffing a shield takes an action. You cannot do it is as your free object interaction, if you are a spellcaster putting it away to cast.

I am aware of that, yes.