Flat-Footed before acting. Too much of a debuff?

[Rakku]

Recently a couple of friends and me were checking some combat rules and realized we had been misusing a particular rule since we were playing 3.5. We always thought that players were only considered flat-footed if there was a surprise round and they were the ones getting ambushed. After reading the Pathfinder ruling we found out that players are always flat-footed before taking their first action on the first round of combat.

Now I am a bit conflicted about this. I'm not sure I should apply this debuff in my games, it just seems too much. Initiative is already so impactful in the outcome of a combat, but it also gives you an AC penalty until you get to your first turn.

I don't want to get into wether it makes sense or not that you are, in theory, not fully aware of what's going on until you take an action. I know those debates can go on forever. I just want to know if you think it's fair for players to get such a penalty. I also know that removing this rule would nerf both rogues and barbarians that have abilities that interact with this mechanic. If any of you don't use this rule, how do you balance it out as to not disadvantage those kinds of abilities.

In the end I know that I'm biased because, well, I just found out about this after misapplying the rule for so long. So I want to know if other people share my opinion that this penalty is too much or if there are important reasons to keep it as it is. Cheers.

[Kurald Galain]

The same rule exists in 3.5. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm)

It's also one of the key weaknesses of a dex-primary build, because generally speaking dex is the god stat in D&D (and also, numerous DMs houserule to make dex-primary builds even stronger).

[Rakku]

The same rule exists in 3.5. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm)

I know, we just noticed we were misusing the rule.

Could you explain why dex is the god stat of D&D? I've never heard about that. What makes dex builds so much better than str builds?

[Kurald Galain]

Could you explain why dex is the god stat of D&D? I've never heard about that. What makes dex builds so much better than str builds?
It adds to AC and one of your saves and init and several useful skills and to-hit rolls (with one feat). That's way more than what any other stat does.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OneStatToRuleThemAll

[MesiDoomstalker]

I know, we just noticed we were misusing the rule.

Could you explain why dex is the god stat of D&D? I've never heard about that. What makes dex builds so much better than str builds?

Dex applies to more things than any other stat. AC, Reflex saves, a number of very useful skills (Stealth and its associated 3.5 equivalents), Ranged attack rolls, melee attack rolls with Weapon Finesse. Not to mention, the bonus to AC goes to Touch, notably the hardest AC subset to buff.

Compared to Str, which gets Melee to-hit and damage and a small number of largely irrelevant skills (and very few ways to grant it to other things). Str only real leg up is its easier to trick out damage output with a Str focus than a Dex focus. But only easier; you can still get good damage numbers with a Dex number.

EDIT: Swordsage'd. Also forgot Initiative.

[tyckspoon]

If you plan to change how Flatfooted works, keep in mind that 'going before people' is the main way ranged Rogues and other Sneak Attackers get to use their Sneak Attack, as there are very few ways to treat somebody as flanked at range, and the various means of denying Dex bonus are a lot easier to apply in melee.

[Psyren]

I consider the rule fair because it applies in both directions. Yes, if you haven't acted yet you're flat-footed to the enemy, but the same goes for an enemy who hasn't acted yet being flat-footed to you.

It also improves the value of reconnaissance and scouting. If your party is able to get a surprise round, not only do you get a round of acting without the enemy being aware, it means that this negative effect doesn't apply to any of you (because you have successfully acted that combat.)

With all that said, I do agree that it can be pretty easy to forget, especially for players.



It's also one of the key weaknesses of a dex-primary build, because generally speaking dex is the god stat in D&D (and also, numerous DMs houserule to make dex-primary builds even stronger).

Wellllll... the most iconic dex-primary class, the Rogue, doesn't have to worry about this rule thanks to Uncanny Dodge.

Though it does highlight yet another reason that I think Monks should have that ability. (They can get it in PF, but would like it to be baseline.)

[Thunder999]

Notably thisis extremely important if you ever want to do anything to anyone who has immediate action spells, going before them so they're flat footed is one of the few real ways to stop them just emergency force sphering/celeritying etc. their way out of danger

[KillianHawkeye]

Notably thisis extremely important if you ever want to do anything to anyone who has immediate action spells, going before them so they're flat footed is one of the few real ways to stop them just emergency force sphering/celeritying etc. their way out of danger

It is also handy against larger foes who have reach (particularly those with poor or middling Dex like dragons and giants), although it fails on those who specialize on reach weapons and attacks of opportunity (such as most trippers), who are more likely to take Combat Reflexes.

But yeah, getting to go before a big monster so you can charge into close quarters while they're still flat-footed is a good move provided that you can survive the inevitable tanking you'll have to do afterwards. Or if you're an uber-charger, kill them before they can act.

[emeraldstreak]

It's a major debuff that god-tier characters invariably address.

[Rakku]

Alright, I'm pretty much convinced to keep this rule as it is.


It also improves the value of reconnaissance and scouting. If your party is able to get a surprise round, not only do you get a round of acting without the enemy being aware, it means that this negative effect doesn't apply to any of you (because you have successfully acted that combat.)


Even though I still think it is a heavy debuff, I like that it gives the players a really big incentive to explore and try to get the jump on the enemy instead of just rushing in.


Notably thisis extremely important if you ever want to do anything to anyone who has immediate action spells, going before them so they're flat footed is one of the few real ways to stop them just emergency force sphering/celeritying etc. their way out of danger

However, this is what really made me appreciate the rule. Often we hear how overwhelming high level casters can be and how they can win/avoid an encounter before it even starts. I think this is an easy way to not let them shut down a combat so effortlessly.

Thanks for your insight, guys. Cheers.

[Doctor Awkward]

However, this is what really made me appreciate the rule. Often we hear how overwhelming high level casters can be and how they can win/avoid an encounter before it even starts. I think this is an easy way to not let them shut down a combat so effortlessly.

Thanks for your insight, guys. Cheers.

You'll often hear about "rocket tag" in discussions involving higher levels of optimization in 3.5E, on account of the turn-based abstraction of combat. With so many tools at everyone's disposal, being able to launch your rockets before the enemy does is crucial to ensuring success in encounters. The old adage says, "Going first often means that your enemy does not get to go second." Initiative is often one of the most important rolls you'll make in an encounter.

[liquidformat]

The same rule exists in 3.5. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm)

It's also one of the key weaknesses of a dex-primary build, because generally speaking dex is the god stat in D&D (and also, numerous DMs houserule to make dex-primary builds even stronger).

I mean to be fair dex based builds often go first because they have the best initiative bonus so I am not sure if can be called a weakness, just bad luck when they roll badly...

[Kurald Galain]

I mean to be fair dex based builds often go first because they have the best initiative bonus so I am not sure if can be called a weakness, just bad luck when they roll badly...

"Bad luck when they roll badly" means it is a weakness - because they often go first, but they also often don't go first.